From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners Date: 01 May 2000 09:08:36 -0700 I have always appreciated Angela's postings. She is knowledgeable, polite and always "on focus" to the purpose of this site. I agree with both of you that one has to do what they have to do. If you re-read my posting, you will see that it acknowledges the need for those with health problems to do what needs to be done. And, as you mentioned, I will have my opinions which I will share with others who have a like interest. The discussion of moccasins seemed to get started in a direction where modern and comfort-oriented additions to period footwear seemed to be the sole subject. I felt another opinion was needed so as not to give the impression that adhering to period practice is simply "not done". In truth, it is "done" and for good reasons. As this site is open to all, beginners and veterans, I didn't want newcomers starting out thinking that what we do requires no sacrifice to comfort. Rain and snow falls down on our heads and the rocky trail rises up to meet our feet. If you live and work in the paths of those we emulate, it is the price you must pay. The distance between text(what you read) and turf(what you experience) is vast. Your knowledge is the richer if you are able to narrow that gap. That is the essence of my "opinion". I meant no disrespect to those with other opinions and I hope, Ms. Gottfred, you didn't read that into my posting, even if others did. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 6:21 PM Amen, Angela Nothing loses the "essence" quite as much as having to stay home because walking in moccasins is impossible without the modifications you need. You continue to do what you need to do and let the others have their opinions. It amazes me that people can't separate comfort from necessity. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, April 27, 1980 10:03 AM > "Larry Huber" wrote: > >>I've tried the double soles, the triple liners, the modern foam pads > and I found that it was like wearing a pair of shoes that looked like > moccasins. It 'aint the same. The essence is lost. << > > Larry, > It's great that you can get out often enough that you can walk properly in > the woods with your moccasins. It really does bring you closer to nature. I > had that skill once, but have lost it because I haven't been able to keep > in practice. > > I know that if I were to wear my moccasins with a single sole and a wool > liner, I would be experiencing pain & discomfort which the Natives & fur > traders did not. The extra layers on the bottom & inside of my moccasins > make up for the thin soles on my feet, my lack of skill in walking, and the > unhistoric surfaces at some of the events which I regularly attend. Also, I > can't keep afford to replace my mocs when the soles wear out quickly due to > being worn on pavement or sharp gravel for a week. > > There's still a world of difference between my moccasins + extra sole + Dr. > Scholl's liners and the Vibram-soled walking shoes I ordinarily wear. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners Date: 01 May 2000 10:27:38 -0600 Larry, what a well thought out and phrased message! I believe, like you, that everyone has a right to their own beliefs and opinions and if they didn't share them we would have a very boring existence indeed. Please be assured that here is one person you have never offended, nor are likely to. I welcome diverse positions - it makes for great cerebral exercise. I want to thank you for participating and hope that someday we may share a campfire and continue these discussions face to face. Yours sincerely Bill C -----Original Message----- >I have always appreciated Angela's postings. She is knowledgeable, polite >and always "on focus" to the purpose of this site. I agree with both of you >that one has to do what they have to do. If you re-read my posting, you >will see that it acknowledges the need for those with health problems to do >what needs to be done. And, as you mentioned, I will have my opinions which >I will share with others who have a like interest. The discussion of >moccasins seemed to get started in a direction where modern and >comfort-oriented additions to period footwear seemed to be the sole subject. >I felt another opinion was needed so as not to give the impression that >adhering to period practice is simply "not done". In truth, it is "done" >and for good reasons. As this site is open to all, beginners and veterans, >I didn't want newcomers starting out thinking that what we do requires no >sacrifice to comfort. Rain and snow falls down on our heads and the rocky >trail rises up to meet our feet. If you live and work in the paths of those >we emulate, it is the price you must pay. The distance between text(what >you read) and turf(what you experience) is vast. Your knowledge is the >richer if you are able to narrow that gap. That is the essence of my >"opinion". >I meant no disrespect to those with other opinions and I hope, Ms. Gottfred, >you didn't read that into my posting, even if others did. > >Larry Huber > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Ratcliff >To: >Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 6:21 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners > > >Amen, Angela >Nothing loses the "essence" quite as much as having to stay home because >walking in moccasins is impossible without the modifications you need. You >continue to do what you need to do and let the others have their opinions. >It amazes me that people can't separate comfort from necessity. >YMOS >Lanney Ratcliff > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Angela Gottfred >To: >Sent: Sunday, April 27, 1980 10:03 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners > > >> "Larry Huber" wrote: >> >>I've tried the double soles, the triple liners, the modern foam pads >> and I found that it was like wearing a pair of shoes that looked like >> moccasins. It 'aint the same. The essence is lost. << >> >> Larry, >> It's great that you can get out often enough that you can walk properly in >> the woods with your moccasins. It really does bring you closer to nature. >I >> had that skill once, but have lost it because I haven't been able to keep >> in practice. >> >> I know that if I were to wear my moccasins with a single sole and a wool >> liner, I would be experiencing pain & discomfort which the Natives & fur >> traders did not. The extra layers on the bottom & inside of my moccasins >> make up for the thin soles on my feet, my lack of skill in walking, and >the >> unhistoric surfaces at some of the events which I regularly attend. Also, >I >> can't keep afford to replace my mocs when the soles wear out quickly due >to >> being worn on pavement or sharp gravel for a week. >> >> There's still a world of difference between my moccasins + extra sole + >Dr. >> Scholl's liners and the Vibram-soled walking shoes I ordinarily wear. >> >> Your humble & obedient servant, >> Angela Gottfred >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs Date: 01 May 2000 09:31:06 -0700 Bill, Do you have and trouble with getting your dyers on in the mornings? I did several camps with a fellow who loved them. His only complaint was the mornings. He'd wear them all day and get them nice and moist. Then he'd leave 'em overnight out of the robes and they'd be as soft as a chunk of granite by dawn. I bought Arrow Mocs Voyager's Boots and had a similar experience. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 9:34 AM > Thanks, Buck. Why not send that sketch along. I'm sure there are plenty > who'd be interested. I never owned a pair of those. The ones I get are the > ones that lace up the front and whose likeness can be found in old paintings > and even the occasional museum. Hanson's books have near copies as well. > They are brutes for taking punishment, are made by several companies besides > Dyers. And the truth is, I see many people wearing them - they just don't > talk about them. I had a pair made by Carl Dyer's dad back when they were > making them for LL Bean. But they finally wore out. Oh well. . . > -----Original Message----- > From: conner1@uswest.net > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Friday, April 28, 2000 9:11 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs > > > >Bill Cunningham wrote: > > > >> Now I am going to 'fess up. I have a couple of pair of plains style mocs > I > >> made. I've worn out a heap of them. But nowadays I usually stick a pair > of > >> them in my pack for use around camp. While doing research over the years, > >> especially in the southwest, I came to believe that the southwest Dyer > moc > >> (that's the one that laces up the front) is as close to what came out of > that > >> area as most can get. There is more to it than that but I'm not listing > it - > >> much to long - Anyway, that's what I wear on the trail, afoot or > horseback. > >> They have never let me down, and that is one of my prime > >> requisites.............. > > > >Bill, > >Charley Hanson had a sketch of a French Marine moc in his office from a > friend > >that ran one of the Canadian museums (can't remember which one now), anyway > the > >moc can be duplicated using one of Dyers old style tie behind mocs (one's > like > >we have all had). If you want I can send you a copy of that sketch for the > >Tomahawk & Long Rifle. > > > >What is needed to change from the Dyer pattern is to cut down that wide > strap > >that goes around the foot into a narrow one inch band that ties with just a > >couple of holes (leave your thong long enough to make a loop to hang them > up), > >this is a fast an easy modification to make a good pair of footwear more > correct > >for period use, not perfect but closer than in original form. > > > >The best part, like you say Dyer's are hard to beat when traveling or just > >working in and around camp, so why not make them fit the period. Showed > Carl > >Dyer at an event years ago - the sketch Hanson had and he went off the deep > end > >about f.... up his mocs. > > > >Anymore on water trips (canoe, flat boat or bateau) I wear them in and out > of > >the water, too much tin, metal and glass to take a chance of getting cut - > >aren't some camper's and boater's wonderful ! > > > >Later > >Buck Conner > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 01 May 2000 09:28:09 -0700 "Master Steve" Well Steve, you wanted to associate with this group of scoundrels and now you've walked into the thick of it. I would have thought that after a wet weekend camped with some on the Larson Arm you'd know better. How are you going to extricate yourself now? I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 6:10 PM > Honorable Master Steven, > > Be it know, that my dear departed husband, did but just last year, > loose such a medal in the mighty rolling Columbia River. He did lose > it as he slipped into the river and drown on a cold rainy Northwest > day. God rest his soul. > > Surly you would not deprive such a token of respect from a grieving > old widow woman. > So, hows about handing that there precious medal on over to me? > > Yours in the utmost respect, > Maw Hawk > > >Ho the List > > > >....also, while at the L&C center, I picked up a bronze Jefferson Peace Medal > >exactly like the one carried by L&C and given to the Indian chiefs. The medal > >was struck, as I understand it, by the US Mint, on the original mold, only in > >bronze, rather than silver as were the originals. Does anyone know if this is > >true...that the US Mint used the original mold cast in 1801? > > > >It's a pretty neat medal and I plan on having it silver plated and tell the > >story about how I found it on the banks of the Columbia River.... > > > >Ymos, > >Steve > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs Date: 01 May 2000 12:20:17 -0600 Can't say as I do, anymore. I bought a pair of Dyer type mocs from a Canadian company (through Otter) and they are of a softer material. I have worn them considerably and have had no problem. With Dyer's I found that I needed to skive the ankle areas or they rubbed me raw. And you are right about them being stiff in the mornings. Terrible hard if you didn't wear socks. Bill -----Original Message----- >Bill, > Do you have and trouble with getting your dyers on in the mornings? I >did several camps with a fellow who loved them. His only complaint was the >mornings. He'd wear them all day and get them nice and moist. Then he'd >leave 'em overnight out of the robes and they'd be as soft as a chunk of >granite by dawn. I bought Arrow Mocs Voyager's Boots and had a similar >experience. > >Larry Huber > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Cunningham >To: >Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 9:34 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs > > >> Thanks, Buck. Why not send that sketch along. I'm sure there are plenty >> who'd be interested. I never owned a pair of those. The ones I get are the >> ones that lace up the front and whose likeness can be found in old >paintings >> and even the occasional museum. Hanson's books have near copies as well. >> They are brutes for taking punishment, are made by several companies >besides >> Dyers. And the truth is, I see many people wearing them - they just don't >> talk about them. I had a pair made by Carl Dyer's dad back when they were >> making them for LL Bean. But they finally wore out. Oh well. . . >> -----Original Message----- >> From: conner1@uswest.net >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Friday, April 28, 2000 9:11 AM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Warm weather Mocs >> >> >> >Bill Cunningham wrote: >> > >> >> Now I am going to 'fess up. I have a couple of pair of plains style >mocs >> I >> >> made. I've worn out a heap of them. But nowadays I usually stick a pair >> of >> >> them in my pack for use around camp. While doing research over the >years, >> >> especially in the southwest, I came to believe that the southwest Dyer >> moc >> >> (that's the one that laces up the front) is as close to what came out >of >> that >> >> area as most can get. There is more to it than that but I'm not listing >> it - >> >> much to long - Anyway, that's what I wear on the trail, afoot or >> horseback. >> >> They have never let me down, and that is one of my prime >> >> requisites.............. >> > >> >Bill, >> >Charley Hanson had a sketch of a French Marine moc in his office from a >> friend >> >that ran one of the Canadian museums (can't remember which one now), >anyway >> the >> >moc can be duplicated using one of Dyers old style tie behind mocs (one's >> like >> >we have all had). If you want I can send you a copy of that sketch for >the >> >Tomahawk & Long Rifle. >> > >> >What is needed to change from the Dyer pattern is to cut down that wide >> strap >> >that goes around the foot into a narrow one inch band that ties with just >a >> >couple of holes (leave your thong long enough to make a loop to hang them >> up), >> >this is a fast an easy modification to make a good pair of footwear more >> correct >> >for period use, not perfect but closer than in original form. >> > >> >The best part, like you say Dyer's are hard to beat when traveling or >just >> >working in and around camp, so why not make them fit the period. Showed >> Carl >> >Dyer at an event years ago - the sketch Hanson had and he went off the >deep >> end >> >about f.... up his mocs. >> > >> >Anymore on water trips (canoe, flat boat or bateau) I wear them in and >out >> of >> >the water, too much tin, metal and glass to take a chance of getting >cut - >> >aren't some camper's and boater's wonderful ! >> > >> >Later >> >Buck Conner >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Julia Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 01 May 2000 12:44:51 -0700 Greetings, Captain Lahti', Sir, How your words do cut deeper than any knife, and knowing you to be a master of words and in command of the utmost respect, I do then bow to your wisdom and consider myself hereafter reduced to that of being a scoundrel. In respect and humility, The Widow Julia >Well Steve, you wanted to associate with this group of scoundrels and now >you've walked into the thick of it. I would have thought that after a >wet weekend camped with some on the Larson Arm you'd know better. How are >you going to extricate yourself now? I remain...... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Julia" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 6:10 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal > > > > Honorable Master Steven, > > > > Be it know, that my dear departed husband, did but just last year, > > loose such a medal in the mighty rolling Columbia River. He did lose > > it as he slipped into the river and drown on a cold rainy Northwest > > day. God rest his soul. > > > > Surly you would not deprive such a token of respect from a grieving > > old widow woman. > > So, hows about handing that there precious medal on over to me? > > > > > >Ho the List > > > > > >....also, while at the L&C center, I picked up a bronze Jefferson Peace >Medal > > >exactly like the one carried by L&C and given to the Indian chiefs. The >medal > > >was struck, as I understand it, by the US Mint, on the original mold, >only in > > >bronze, rather than silver as were the originals. Does anyone know if >this is > > >true...that the US Mint used the original mold cast in 1801? > > > > > >It's a pretty neat medal and I plan on having it silver plated and tell >the > > >story about how I found it on the banks of the Columbia River.... > > > > > >Ymos, > > >Steve > > > > > >---------------------- > > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 01 May 2000 14:08:15 -0700 The Widow Julia, My dear lady, I am shamed with the knowledge that I have seemingly included your Loveliness in any grouping of scoundrels. I would never knowingly place a person of your obvious gentle nature in such company. Now this Steve fellow, he is another story. A scoundrel in the making and should I find him unencumbered with his entourage of fellow scoundrels, as I did this past week camped out on "Hard Core Elitist Bastards' Estates" ( a Gated Community), located on the south side of the Larson Arm, near but not quite adequately separate from the "Regular Gathering At Frog Holler", and thus totally outnumbered, I shall take the cane to him unmercifully and recover your property postwith. I found him to be of spurious character and have evidence to show my case. It has been widely known that my good and honorable Camp Mate, one "Old Blue", AKA. Tom Crooks and I have historically offered chocolate to any fair maiden that would brave the icy depths to swim to our side. In years past we have only had to give out small amounts of chocolate. This year as we spent the sunny (quit abnormal for this location) day contemplating the fine shooting we had done on the trail that morning, (I found myself modestly accepting the first place prize for the Trade Gun Shoot and my erstwhile companion equally found to his embarrassment that he had taken First in the Rifle Shoot) our attention was drawn to a ruckus coming from the main camp At Frog. To our amazement and my dismay, we beheld two large "War Canoes" lashed together and coming our way full of lovely women chanting, "Chocolate, Chocolate, Chocolate", to the rhythm of their war clubs thumping on the gunnels of the canoes. I hurriedly assembled my wholly inadequate supply of Milk Chocolate onto a plate and prepared to greet the approaching Lovely's. Contrary to the rules, they all arrived dry Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... Date: 01 May 2000 17:57:26 -0500 Mr. Funk, John, Stichin' Scotsman, who is AMM, recently made me a pair of high top, side seam moccs. I wore them to my first Rendezvous just a few weeks ago here in Texas. I had some special needs beins I was a ballerina for twenty years and just about ruined my feet. John did a wonderful job making the moccs around my requirements. I know where my second pair of moccs will come from! John specializes in custom handsewn goods for the American Fur Trade Era, which includes clothes for men and the ladies---all authentic. He can fabricate whatever you need. http://www.stichinscotsman.com/ As we say here in Texas, I hope you give him a shout. Texan On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr." writes: > Ole..... > I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc. better than > I...and that > don't say much. If there's a better (authentic) "mouse trap", I'll > look at > it (them). > John Funk > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ole B. Jensen > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > > > > John, > > Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there is > another > > company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who they > are and > how > > to get a hold of them please post your info. > > YMOS > > Ole # 718 > > ---------- > > >From: manbear > > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > > >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM > > > > > > > >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one > listed. > > > > > >Manbear > > > > > >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote: > > > > > >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site? > > >> John Funk > > >> > > >> ---------------------- > > >> hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > >hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... Date: 01 May 2000 18:23:48 -0500 It would be of help if I spelled out Stitchin' Scotman's web page correctly!! http://www.stitchinscotsman.com Texan On Mon, 1 May 2000 17:57:26 -0500 Victoria Pate writes: > Mr. Funk, > > John, Stichin' Scotsman, who is AMM, recently made me a pair of > high top, side seam moccs. I wore them to my first Rendezvous just > a few weeks ago here in Texas. I had some special needs beins > I was a ballerina for twenty years and just about ruined my feet. > John did a wonderful job making the moccs around my requirements. > I know where my second pair of moccs will come from! John > specializes > in custom handsewn goods for the American Fur Trade Era, which > includes > clothes for men and the ladies---all authentic. He can > fabricate whatever you need. > > http://www.stichinscotsman.com/ > > As we say here in Texas, I hope you give him a shout. > Texan > > > On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr." > writes: > > Ole..... > > I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc. better than > > I...and that > > don't say much. If there's a better (authentic) "mouse trap", > I'll > > look at > > it (them). > > John Funk > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ole B. Jensen > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > > > > > > > John, > > > Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there is > > another > > > company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who they > > are and > > how > > > to get a hold of them please post your info. > > > YMOS > > > Ole # 718 > > > ---------- > > > >From: manbear > > > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > > > >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM > > > > > > > > > > >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one > > listed. > > > > > > > >Manbear > > > > > > > >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote: > > > > > > > >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site? > > > >> John Funk > > > >> > > > >> ---------------------- > > > >> hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > > >hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Julia Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 01 May 2000 18:30:13 -0700 Dearest, Captain Lahti, Sir, Your kind words do find a place of comfort in my heart, they are gratefully accepted. Please, allow me to humbly beg your pardon for my misunderstandings. I, being swallowed up with grief and despair, have found myself with an addled mind. I pray that you put down your cane and spare the young master Steve's backside on my account. Being as addled as I have become, I would not have one moments rest for fear that I caused a great unjust act to fall upon this good man that has but only one real fault, that of being a "Magpie". I say God speed, to your fine ladies of the chocolate dip. Next year let them have their tea and crumpets as well. For in truth, I tell you, not only would I enjoy a good cup of tea, but I would also swim even the coldest of streams, thereupon, I would count myself of great fortune if that splendid gentleman known as "Old Blue" were to place a bit of chocolate upon my tongue. This being a sentiment, I am quite sure, is shared by the ladies of your camp. To you Sir, I offer my congratulations on taking the shooting match, well done. I dare say, that there will be no lack of meat hanging on your porch his winter. I closing, my dear Capt. I would ask that you use great caution in your pursuits in a place with a name like "Hard Core Elitist Bastards' Estates" that you did make mention of in your last letter, for the name alone, does strike the fear of God deep within my soul. I bid you a gracious farewell, The widow Julia ( of addled mind and empty larder) >The Widow Julia, > >My dear lady, I am shamed with the knowledge that I have seemingly included >your Loveliness in any grouping of scoundrels. I would never knowingly place >a person of your obvious gentle nature in such company. Now this Steve >fellow, he is another story. A scoundrel in the making and should I find him >unencumbered with his entourage of fellow scoundrels, as I did this past >week camped out on "Hard Core Elitist Bastards' Estates" ( a Gated >Community), located on the south side of the Larson Arm, near but not quite >adequately separate from the "Regular Gathering At Frog Holler", and thus >totally outnumbered, I shall take the cane to him unmercifully and recover >your property postwith. I found him to be of spurious character and have >evidence to show my case. > >It has been widely known that my good and honorable Camp Mate, one "Old >Blue", AKA. Tom Crooks and I have historically offered chocolate to any fair >maiden that would brave the icy depths to swim to our side. In years past we >have only had to give out small amounts of chocolate. This year as we spent >the sunny (quit abnormal for this location) day contemplating the fine >shooting we had done on the trail that morning, (I found myself modestly >accepting the first place prize for the Trade Gun Shoot and my erstwhile >companion equally found to his embarrassment that he had taken First in the >Rifle Shoot) our attention was drawn to a ruckus coming from the main camp >At Frog. > >To our amazement and my dismay, we beheld two large "War Canoes" lashed >together and coming our way full of lovely women chanting, "Chocolate, >Chocolate, Chocolate", to the rhythm of their war clubs thumping on the >gunnels of the canoes. I hurriedly assembled my wholly inadequate supply of >Milk Chocolate onto a plate and prepared to greet the approaching Lovely's. >Contrary to the rules, they all arrived dryChocolate, which I alone was prepared to provide. I was able to extract a >hug from each one and perhaps a second squeeze from a couple before they >announced that next year they would expect the same along with Tea and >Crumpets. I got no help from the rest of the scoundrels camped with me other >than to see my brethren share in the warmth and beauty that shown from the >ladies unto their departure. > >Other than drink our rum, burn our wood, eat our food and share in our good >fortune with the visiting ladies, this Steve fellow has only one quality. He >will pick up anything shinny and think it worth keeping. I propose he be >called "Magpie" for his propensity to go for the shinny objects. What say >the 'Body"? > >As for me, Dear Lady, may I extend my most heart felt sympathy at your lose >and my affections to you in the most honorable way. To suggest that you or >any one of the fairer sex could be considered a scoundrel is cause to take >up the sword. My best wishes to you and your family. I remain..... >Most Affectionately >YMOS >Capt. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 01 May 2000 21:50:07 EDT > I say God speed, to your fine ladies of the chocolate dip. Next > year let them have their tea and crumpets as well. For in truth, I > tell you, not only would I enjoy a good cup of tea, but I would > also swim even the coldest of streams, This being a sentiment, > I am quite sure, is shared by the ladies of your camp. Capt. Lahti, Am forwarding by quickest messenger a supply of fine, lambskin sheaths. I dare not cast aspersions on the fine ladies of the West, however Company men must be protected at all costs, lest production fail and company quotas are not met. Debilitating disease does not fill the coffers. As the nesting season is full upon us, it seems that you might have your hands full coping with the local natives. Use them with disgression and honor, as I have no further use for them. The Eastern ladies have been tamed for some time. Le Vieux Reynard, scout Vermilion Co. Rangers ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks Date: 01 May 2000 21:25:03 -0500 Thanks all. Reckon I'll be scrapin' my pennies together to get me a = new gun. I'd like to get a matching pistol, but I have to convince the = Keeper of the Wampum that it's a necessity. So far, she remains = unconvinced. Todd > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > conner1@uswest.net > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 10:24 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Building Flintlocks >=20 >=20 > LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: >=20 > > Farseer, I have a TVM Southern Rifle and matching pistol, both=20 > in .54 cal, > > ++curly maple and brass hardware. Not only are they are fine=20 > lookin' but dang > > they shoot good too, right out of the box. Also found Jack=20 > Garner and his > > lovely Lady a pleasure to work with. Just my $.02 worth. =20 > Barney Fife >=20 > Jack and the his wife have split I was told by Freddy Harris a=20 > couple years ago, > when the business changed hands. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Julia Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 01 May 2000 19:31:40 -0700 Le Vieux Reynard, I was speaking of chocolate candy, not the filth that you wallow in. Though, I can understand that to someone of your low caliber the two could be confused. For shame, sirrah! > Debilitating disease does not fill the coffers. > >As the nesting season is full upon us, it seems that you might have your >hands full coping with the local natives. Use them with disgression and >honor, as I have no further use for them. The Eastern ladies have been tamed >for some time. > >Le Vieux Reynard, scout >Vermilion Co. Rangers > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 01 May 2000 22:41:05 EDT > I was speaking of chocolate candy, not the filth that you wallow in. > Though, I can understand that to someone of your low caliber the > two could be confused. For shame, sirrah! Madam, I spoke not ill, nor judged, a poor widow down on her luck. Instead, I referred to those saucy tarts who bore down on the good Captain, posthaste, to advantage themselves of his hard won spoils, and to take advantage of him in other ways to horrible to mention in common company. The poor man has grown feeble and is "down in the back." The company only maintains his present postition for his leadership skills, not his work ethic. Such an onslaught upon his being could only result in great loss to the Company. In this wild and foreboding country, we must protect our interests at all costs. Le Vieux Reynard ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 01 May 2000 21:59:02 -0700 Ya know, I'm sure glad I have my boots on. Cause this CRAP is gettin real deep. Pendleton -----Original Message----- > I was speaking of chocolate candy, not the filth that you wallow in. > Though, I can understand that to someone of your low caliber the > two could be confused. For shame, sirrah! Madam, I spoke not ill, nor judged, a poor widow down on her luck. Instead, I referred to those saucy tarts who bore down on the good Captain, posthaste, to advantage themselves of his hard won spoils, and to take advantage of him in other ways to horrible to mention in common company. The poor man has grown feeble and is "down in the back." The company only maintains his present postition for his leadership skills, not his work ethic. Such an onslaught upon his being could only result in great loss to the Company. In this wild and foreboding country, we must protect our interests at all costs. Le Vieux Reynard ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Crooked Hand" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Question Date: 01 May 2000 23:32:47 -0400 Can somebody advise my friend on the accessability of bows as he asks! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 9:28 AM > Hey there, > Hope you had a good weekend. We had Arlynn's parents down all > weekend but they took off Sunday. Need another weekend to relax. > > Did you once tell me that you knew someone that made wooden > longbows? I'm looking for something in the lower pull range, 35#-40# , for > Arlynn to shoot in the back yard. Found a Martin longbow for about $150, > but not sure that it's all wood. I remember there was a sutler at Alifia > selling em but don't know who it was. > > If you know of anyone please let me know. > > Talk to you later, > > CB > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 01 May 2000 19:35:12 -0700 The Widow Julia Dear lady, You have put my mind to rest. A couple of points of clarification if I may? This "Magpie" fellow is not some young and callow youth who has not yet learned his place. He is an old reprobate hide dealer from Alaska who has come down here to dispoil our waters and women. Be forewarned. "Old Blue" seems not to have any problem getting the ladies of the upper Willamette R. to let him place Chocolate on their precious tongues. He seems to have them eating out of his hand as it were. The Only People who need fear the inhabitants of " Hard Core Elitist Bastards' Estates" are the absentee fathers who made them so. Our love and admiration for the Ladies is boundless and without reservation. You have nothing to fear from us. Please join us for tea. I remain..... With utmost affection, YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Question Date: 01 May 2000 20:52:16 -0700 (PDT) On Mon, 1 May 2000, Crooked Hand wrote: > Can somebody advise my friend on the accessability of bows as he asks! > > > Did you once tell me that you knew someone that made wooden > > longbows? I'm looking for something in the lower pull range, 35#-40# , Saxon Archery, Potlatch Idaho, 208-875-0408 They're not flintlocks, but they are works of art. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Other mocs Date: 01 May 2000 20:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Gentlemen [and ladies] all this talk of Dyer mocs, quality and lifespan not withstanding, has brought to mind the mocs that I favored, but have not seen for quite some time. Is Desert Sun still in business, and does anyone know a source for them? The soles were as thick as Dyers, but the tops were of soft leather, and so no burden in the mornings. Thanks, Dog, Gabe's Hole Brig. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 01 May 2000 21:27:04 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 6:50 PM The respected Le Vieux Reynard, Scout extraordinare' Dear Sir: Your thoughtfulness is much appreciated and though I have my men safely away from the Ladies du Frog for another year, and well on their way up river to the hunting grounds, I will fear for their health at the tender hands of the Dusky Ladies of the upper Columbia District, lest I am in possesion of your most urgently needed supplies at the earliest. My only hope is that the shipment arrives in time, in good condition and adequate quantitiy. The later being my most highly held concern. I remain...... For more Beaver and fewer rules, YMOS Capt. Lahti' Aux Aliments de Pays! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Question Date: 01 May 2000 23:12:56 -0600 You might try Walt Foster who is on this net. Or Valley Traditional Archery or Orion Archery, both of whom have web sites. Be careful of sutlers selling bows. Wade Colter, whom Walt knows and sees once in a while, also makes fine archery equipment. You might also get a copy of Primitive Archery magazine and check out the ads. Bill C -----Original Message----- >Can somebody advise my friend on the accessability of bows as he asks! >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Baker-1, Craig" >To: "Mark T - CHand" >Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 9:28 AM >Subject: Question > > >> Hey there, >> Hope you had a good weekend. We had Arlynn's parents down all >> weekend but they took off Sunday. Need another weekend to relax. >> >> Did you once tell me that you knew someone that made wooden >> longbows? I'm looking for something in the lower pull range, 35#-40# , >for >> Arlynn to shoot in the back yard. Found a Martin longbow for about $150, >> but not sure that it's all wood. I remember there was a sutler at Alifia >> selling em but don't know who it was. >> >> If you know of anyone please let me know. >> >> Talk to you later, >> >> CB >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 01 May 2000 22:15:45 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 7:41 PM Such an onslaught upon his being could only result in great loss to > the Company. In this wild and foreboding country, we must protect our > interests at all costs. > > Le Vieux Reynard Dear Sir and Madam, I regret to inform you that my good wife, mistress Lahti has come into possesion of our correspondence and has called for the local Lutheran Minister to hasten to this house. She is at the moment applying Biblical Verse to my defenseless scalp and refusing me any further intercourse (in the business sense of course) with the inhabitants of Frog Holler. I fear for the loss of income to the Company should I fail to reverse her suspisions. She does not understand these things and I fear it will take some several weeks wages until she does. Regretfully, I must bid this most entertaining exchange adeu'. I remain....... Chastized but still, YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 02 May 2000 05:57:58 -0600 Julia wrote: > Le Vieux Reynard, > > I was speaking of chocolate candy, not the filth that you wallow in. > Though, I can understand that to someone of your low caliber the > two could be confused. For shame, sirrah! > > > Debilitating disease does not fill the coffers. > > > >As the nesting season is full upon us, it seems that you might have your > >hands full coping with the local natives. Use them with disgression and > >honor, as I have no further use for them. The Eastern ladies have been tamed > >for some time. > > > >Le Vieux Reynard, scout > >Vermilion Co. Rangers didn't she say she was in a lather !!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin liners Date: 02 May 2000 08:15:28 -0600 Larry Huber wrote: >I have always appreciated Angela's postings. She is knowledgeable, polite >and always "on focus" to the purpose of this site. Thank you for the kind words, Larry. >I didn't want newcomers starting out thinking that what we do requires no >sacrifice to comfort. I hate to be so blunt, but why not? Most newcomers want to have fun, and sore feet are not fun. If they have fun in the beginning, perhaps later their interest will grow to the point where they're willing to take some chances with their comfort to pursue their new hobby. We're all in this hobby for different reasons, and we follow our common goal of learning about history in different ways. There is no "one true path", yet we share the same destination. Godspeed on your journey, Larry; although I admire your path, it is not mine. >The distance between text(what >you read) and turf(what you experience) is vast. Some things that fur traders did can only be experienced today through reading texts, such as the horror of watching a smallpox epidemic kill everyone you trade with; finding that your neighbours have eaten their horses, their dogs, and finally their dead friends; watching your twin children die within days of their birth; travelling a thousand miles by canoe every summer--half of it upstream!--for three years straight. >Your knowledge is the >richer if you are able to narrow that gap [between 'text' and 'turf']. I agree completely. But there's more than one way to follow this hobby, and not everyone is able to take the route they'd like. My interest is in research and public interpretation, so I spend most of my reenacting time at historic sites talking to visitors, and pausing only long enough to put my frozen buffalo stew into my handmade reproduction copper kettle. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 02 May 2000 13:59:08 -0600 Come on folks, keep the personal letters to each others emails, I find them interesting but enough is enough. Even in historical text, these letters are monolizing the entire discussion. Please, discontinue or use personal email Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/ Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 02 May 2000 13:07:42 -0700 Joe, Lighten up my friend. There was no other discussion to speak of and we knocked it off almost a day ago. It doesn't happen too much and not too often but if you don't let out some of that BS once in a while, you break wind too loud. So what have you been doing with yourself of late? Made any camps? Spring turkey hunting? Read any good books? I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 12:59 PM > Come on folks, keep the personal letters to each others emails, I > find them interesting but enough is enough. Even in historical text, > these letters are monolizing the entire discussion. Please, > discontinue or use personal email > > Joe > Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/ > Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 > New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Question Date: 02 May 2000 16:55:50 -0500 > > Can somebody advise my friend on the accessability of bows as he asks! > > > > > Did you once tell me that you knew someone that made wooden > > > longbows? I'm looking for something in the lower pull range, 35#-40# , > Try ths folks on the BBS at this URL; http://www.bowsite.org/stickbow/tf/threads.cfm?forum=19,1,4 quite a few wood bowmakers there and they are not above selling a good bow at a reasonalbe price. Might find something here too. http://www.archeryauctions.com/ J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Question Date: 02 May 2000 16:43:42 -0600 I believe I did give him a couple of stick bow maker's names - to wit - Walt Foster and Wade Colter. -----Original Message----- > >> > Can somebody advise my friend on the accessability of bows as he asks! >> > >> > > Did you once tell me that you knew someone that made wooden >> > > longbows? I'm looking for something in the lower pull range, 35#-40# >, >> >Try ths folks on the BBS at this URL; > http://www.bowsite.org/stickbow/tf/threads.cfm?forum=19,1,4 >quite a few wood bowmakers there and they are not above selling a good bow >at a reasonalbe price. > >Might find something here too. http://www.archeryauctions.com/ >J.D. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 02 May 2000 16:47:56 -0600 Hey, Joe, what would a half hide of latigo (weight like in the pictures I sent) and some of those good splits cost me? Bill -----Original Message----- >Come on folks, keep the personal letters to each others emails, I >find them interesting but enough is enough. Even in historical text, >these letters are monolizing the entire discussion. Please, >discontinue or use personal email > >Joe >Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/ >Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 >New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 02 May 2000 17:00:50 -0700 This stuff is gett'n hard to read on a full stomach.. Tends to want to empty....in a hurry. Ralph... ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 6:30 PM > Dearest, Captain Lahti, > > Sir, Your kind words do find a place of comfort in my heart, they > are gratefully accepted. > Please, allow me to humbly beg your pardon for my misunderstandings. > I, being swallowed up with grief and despair, have found myself > with an addled mind. > > I pray that you put down your cane and spare the young master > Steve's backside on my account. Being as addled as I have become, > I would not have one moments rest for fear that I caused a great > unjust act to fall upon this good man that has but only one real > fault, that of being a "Magpie". > > I say God speed, to your fine ladies of the chocolate dip. Next > year let them have their tea and crumpets as well. For in truth, I > tell you, not only would I enjoy a good cup of tea, but I would > also swim even the coldest of streams, thereupon, I would count > myself of great fortune if that splendid gentleman known as "Old > Blue" were to place a bit of chocolate upon my tongue. This > being a sentiment, I am quite sure, is shared by the ladies of your > camp. > > To you Sir, I offer my congratulations on taking the shooting match, > well done. I dare say, that there will be no lack of meat hanging > on your porch his winter. > > I closing, my dear Capt. I would ask that you use great caution in > your pursuits in a place with a name like "Hard Core Elitist > Bastards' Estates" that you did make mention of in your last letter, > for the name alone, does strike the fear of God deep within my soul. > > I bid you a gracious farewell, > The widow Julia ( of addled mind and empty larder) > > > > >The Widow Julia, > > > >My dear lady, I am shamed with the knowledge that I have seemingly included > >your Loveliness in any grouping of scoundrels. I would never knowingly place > >a person of your obvious gentle nature in such company. Now this Steve > >fellow, he is another story. A scoundrel in the making and should I find him > >unencumbered with his entourage of fellow scoundrels, as I did this past > >week camped out on "Hard Core Elitist Bastards' Estates" ( a Gated > >Community), located on the south side of the Larson Arm, near but not quite > >adequately separate from the "Regular Gathering At Frog Holler", and thus > >totally outnumbered, I shall take the cane to him unmercifully and recover > >your property postwith. I found him to be of spurious character and have > >evidence to show my case. > > > >It has been widely known that my good and honorable Camp Mate, one "Old > >Blue", AKA. Tom Crooks and I have historically offered chocolate to any fair > >maiden that would brave the icy depths to swim to our side. In years past we > >have only had to give out small amounts of chocolate. This year as we spent > >the sunny (quit abnormal for this location) day contemplating the fine > >shooting we had done on the trail that morning, (I found myself modestly > >accepting the first place prize for the Trade Gun Shoot and my erstwhile > >companion equally found to his embarrassment that he had taken First in the > >Rifle Shoot) our attention was drawn to a ruckus coming from the main camp > >At Frog. > > > >To our amazement and my dismay, we beheld two large "War Canoes" lashed > >together and coming our way full of lovely women chanting, "Chocolate, > >Chocolate, Chocolate", to the rhythm of their war clubs thumping on the > >gunnels of the canoes. I hurriedly assembled my wholly inadequate supply of > >Milk Chocolate onto a plate and prepared to greet the approaching Lovely's. > >Contrary to the rules, they all arrived dry >Chocolate, which I alone was prepared to provide. I was able to extract a > >hug from each one and perhaps a second squeeze from a couple before they > >announced that next year they would expect the same along with Tea and > >Crumpets. I got no help from the rest of the scoundrels camped with me other > >than to see my brethren share in the warmth and beauty that shown from the > >ladies unto their departure. > > > >Other than drink our rum, burn our wood, eat our food and share in our good > >fortune with the visiting ladies, this Steve fellow has only one quality. He > >will pick up anything shinny and think it worth keeping. I propose he be > >called "Magpie" for his propensity to go for the shinny objects. What say > >the 'Body"? > > > >As for me, Dear Lady, may I extend my most heart felt sympathy at your lose > >and my affections to you in the most honorable way. To suggest that you or > >any one of the fairer sex could be considered a scoundrel is cause to take > >up the sword. My best wishes to you and your family. I remain..... > > > >Most Affectionately > >YMOS > >Capt. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... Date: 02 May 2000 16:58:21 -0700 Miss Victoria, I know John from a while back and totally forgot about his talents with a needle. Shell definitely look him up. My thanks for reminding me. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 3:57 PM > Mr. Funk, > > John, Stichin' Scotsman, who is AMM, recently made me a pair of > high top, side seam moccs. I wore them to my first Rendezvous just > a few weeks ago here in Texas. I had some special needs beins > I was a ballerina for twenty years and just about ruined my feet. > John did a wonderful job making the moccs around my requirements. > I know where my second pair of moccs will come from! John specializes > in custom handsewn goods for the American Fur Trade Era, which includes > clothes for men and the ladies---all authentic. He can > fabricate whatever you need. > > http://www.stichinscotsman.com/ > > As we say here in Texas, I hope you give him a shout. > Texan > > > On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr." > writes: > > Ole..... > > I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc. better than > > I...and that > > don't say much. If there's a better (authentic) "mouse trap", I'll > > look at > > it (them). > > John Funk > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ole B. Jensen > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > > > > > > > John, > > > Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there is > > another > > > company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who they > > are and > > how > > > to get a hold of them please post your info. > > > YMOS > > > Ole # 718 > > > ---------- > > > >From: manbear > > > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > > > >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM > > > > > > > > > > >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one > > listed. > > > > > > > >Manbear > > > > > > > >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote: > > > > > > > >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site? > > > >> John Funk > > > >> > > > >> ---------------------- > > > >> hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > > >hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 02 May 2000 18:39:59 -0600 Capt Lahti, If this Steve fellow is as much of a scoundrel as you make out, and if he has a propensity for shiny objects, I think that "Raccoon" is a somewhat more fitting moniker. I prefer to reserve "Magpie" for someone who flits around camp constantly chattering and being obnoxious. Anyway, I enjoyed your posting... "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party Pilgrim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 02 May 2000 19:07:45 -0700 > This stuff is gett'n hard to read on a full stomach.. Tends to want to > empty....in a hurry. > Ralph... John, If that is the case, then why are you quoting it, copying it and sending it out again. It was supposed to have died a natural death last night. You know where the delete button is? I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 02 May 2000 19:13:47 -0700 Teton, Thanks. He has vague aspirations of some day being invited in. "Old Blue" suggested "Magpie" because he was attracted to shiny objects of little value (other than my copper work of course ) and it did seem fitting. Perhaps "Raccoon" might work too. Nothing is forever and I've only shared one camp with him so we will see. You might get to meet him some day soon and then you can judge for yourself. The more I think about it, the better "Magpie" fits. He does fly around the country jabbering at the ground, literally! I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 03 May 2000 02:55:20 EDT In a message dated 5/2/00 7:14:41 PM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << The more I think about it, the better "Magpie" fits. He does fly around the country jabbering at the ground, literally! I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' >> Haaaaaa! Magpie....well guess I've been called worse..... 'Tis true that I fly and the Magpie is a rather handsome critter..... but still I was thinking along the lines of "Great Silver Haired Soaring Eagle.....of the Far North West" ....might get a little respect from the riffraff I'm running with! Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 03 May 2000 03:10:26 EDT Steve Respect is what they'll give ya at your grave side after they have robbed ya of all your worldly goods is more like it. See ya on the trail Magpie Crazy Cyot PS. Magpies do fly but watch your landings. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Coyote learns to fly Date: 03 May 2000 04:45:13 EDT Coyote was walking along one day and he looked up into the sky and saw Eagle flying overhead. He thought, "I wish I could fly like Eagle, then man would look up to me, for I could fly up to the Grandfather and deliver him man's prayers!" Then he thought, "It cannot be that hard, for Eagle Flies, Magpie Flies, even Owl flies! So I too can learn to fly!" Coyote stared to run, and flap his arms, and jump up and down! While he was doing this Magpie saw him and started to laugh, and said, "What are you doing, Coyote?" "I am trying to learn to fly like Eagle!" "Foolish Coyote, you cannot learn to fly that way. Have you not seen the little birds in the trees learn to fly? They are high in the trees and the mother pushes them out of the nest. That is how they learn to fly. You cannot do it from the ground, you must be high in the trees like the birds." Coyote thought, "This makes sense." So he climbed up into the tree where Magpie was. "Magpie this is too high! I cannot jump from here!" Just then Magpie pecked him in the rump and he jumped out of the tree. He flapped his arms and flapped his arms and he hit the ground with a thump! Coyote was limping around and whining and crying about Falling so far, then Magpie said, "Coyote, you almost did it. If you had just kicked your legs, Flapped your arms a little harder and been a little higher, you would have flown!" Coyote said, "Are you sure of this?" Magpie said, "Do I not fly? Take my word for it. If you will climbed to the top of this cliff, I think it is high enough so that you would learn to fly!" So Coyote climbed the cliff. Then he looked down over the edge, and said, This is much to high just then Magpie pecked him in the rump, and off the cliff he went, kicking his legs and flapping his arms as hard as he could. He fell and he fell, and hit the ground with a great SPLAT! That is when Coyote learned that coyotes do not fly, and they land even worse! See ya on the ground Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: L&C beads Date: 03 May 2000 12:01:19 EDT Hallo the List, I received this note not long ago from an interpreter at the L&C Center at Great Falls concerning the L&C beads.... I've gotta stop picking up these shiny things... <<<<<>>> Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coyote learns to fly Date: 03 May 2000 12:05:03 EDT In a message dated 5/3/00 1:46:07 AM, GazeingCyot@cs.com writes: << That is when Coyote learned that coyotes do not fly, and they land even worse! See ya on the ground Crazy Cyot >> Haaaa! Good story..... I figure, if nothing falls off the plane at touch down, I'm doin OK.... Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 03 May 2000 10:16:11 -0600 Actually a dry reading but facinating book is "Guns, Germs and Steel" I highly recomend it Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/ Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 03 May 2000 10:22:00 -0600 Bill, Latigo runs $4.00 sq ft, I just got some split deer and elk, smaller pieces 4-7 sq ft in a cornmeal color. cost is $2.95 sq ft. This stuff is really nice and will take a good smoking. some are thick enough for moccasins Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/ Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the Jefferson Peace Medal Date: 03 May 2000 10:37:07 -0600 Send me half a hide of latigo (needs to be supple enough to make archery arm guards). If you have splits that are at least 20 by 28 inches, send me a half dozen. Thanks. Bill -----Original Message----- >Bill, > >Latigo runs $4.00 sq ft, I just got some split deer and elk, smaller >pieces 4-7 sq ft in a cornmeal color. cost is $2.95 sq ft. This stuff >is really nice and will take a good smoking. some are thick enough >for moccasins > >Joe >Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/ >Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 >New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... Date: 03 May 2000 18:22:49 -0500 On Tue, 2 May 2000 16:58:21 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr." writes: > Miss Victoria, > I know John from a while back and totally forgot about his talents > with a > needle. Shell definitely look him up. My thanks for reminding me. > John Funk You are most welcome, Mr. Funk. And while you are catchin' up with John, ask him about his newest addition to the family, Ribeye, who gets bottle fed 3 pints of goat milk three times a day, and who recently discovered that grass is quite tasty. Victoria > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Victoria Pate > To: > Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 3:57 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > > > > Mr. Funk, > > > > John, Stichin' Scotsman, who is AMM, recently made me a pair of > > high top, side seam moccs. I wore them to my first Rendezvous > just > > a few weeks ago here in Texas. I had some special needs beins > > I was a ballerina for twenty years and just about ruined my feet. > > John did a wonderful job making the moccs around my requirements. > > I know where my second pair of moccs will come from! John > specializes > > in custom handsewn goods for the American Fur Trade Era, which > includes > > clothes for men and the ladies---all authentic. He can > > fabricate whatever you need. > > > > http://www.stichinscotsman.com/ > > > > As we say here in Texas, I hope you give him a shout. > > Texan > > > > > > On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr." > > writes: > > > Ole..... > > > I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc. better than > > > I...and that > > > don't say much. If there's a better (authentic) "mouse trap", > I'll > > > look at > > > it (them). > > > John Funk > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Ole B. Jensen > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM > > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > > > > > > > > > > John, > > > > Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there > is > > > another > > > > company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who > they > > > are and > > > how > > > > to get a hold of them please post your info. > > > > YMOS > > > > Ole # 718 > > > > ---------- > > > > >From: manbear > > > > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > > > > >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one > > > listed. > > > > > > > > > >Manbear > > > > > > > > > >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site? > > > > >> John Funk > > > > >> > > > > >> ---------------------- > > > > >> hist_text list info: > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > > > >hist_text list info: > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Saddle Date: 03 May 2000 20:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Wynn, any luck with the saddle pix? Haven't seen you on line for a few days, and was just wondering. Dog --- Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > Browsing through an antique store I found an old > saddle. It appears to be a wooden tree without a > rawhide wrapping. It is either rawhide or very old > leather making up the covering. It has a sheepskin > lining on the under side. It has the look of being > very old and hard used. I would be hard put to find > a horse thin and small enough to fit under it. > Without any history behind it, can it be calculated > how old it is? Would anyone be interested in seeing > pics? Or interested in the saddle for that matter. > > By the way, it was on the suggestions made by > Northwood that I was in the place in the first > place. He is correct in that you can find some very > serviceable items in such places. > > YMOS > > WY > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Erasing Billings Date: 03 May 2000 21:25:13 -0600 If you are interested in Lewis and Clark and the AMM way take a look at the photos of the way it could have looked in general at www.billingsgazette.com and look for the story Titled Erasing Billings. Walt Park City, MT Also a story on Pomps Piller of Lewis and Clark building interest ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Erasing Billings Date: 03 May 2000 21:33:49 -0600 Click under the billings gazette logo in the upper left hand corner that reads headlines. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: The Stitching Scotsman? Date: 04 May 2000 07:18:24 -0600 Victoria, I tried to open the web site that was given in the e-mail, couldn't do it. Is there a phone no.? or address? or could someone re enter the address and make sure it is correct. YMOS Ole ---------- >From: Victoria Pate >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... >Date: Wed, May 3, 2000, 5:22 PM > > >On Tue, 2 May 2000 16:58:21 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr." > writes: >> Miss Victoria, >> I know John from a while back and totally forgot about his talents >> with a >> needle. Shell definitely look him up. My thanks for reminding me. >> John Funk > >You are most welcome, Mr. Funk. And while you are catchin' >up with John, ask him about his newest addition to the family, >Ribeye, who gets bottle fed 3 pints of goat milk three times a >day, and who recently discovered that grass is quite >tasty. > >Victoria > > > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Victoria Pate >> To: >> Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 3:57 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... >> >> >> > Mr. Funk, >> > >> > John, Stichin' Scotsman, who is AMM, recently made me a pair of >> > high top, side seam moccs. I wore them to my first Rendezvous >> just >> > a few weeks ago here in Texas. I had some special needs beins >> > I was a ballerina for twenty years and just about ruined my feet. >> > John did a wonderful job making the moccs around my requirements. >> > I know where my second pair of moccs will come from! John >> specializes >> > in custom handsewn goods for the American Fur Trade Era, which >> includes >> > clothes for men and the ladies---all authentic. He can >> > fabricate whatever you need. >> > >> > http://www.stichinscotsman.com/ >> > >> > As we say here in Texas, I hope you give him a shout. >> > Texan >> > >> > >> > On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr." >> > writes: >> > > Ole..... >> > > I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc. better than >> > > I...and that >> > > don't say much. If there's a better (authentic) "mouse trap", >> I'll >> > > look at >> > > it (them). >> > > John Funk >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: Ole B. Jensen >> > > To: >> > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM >> > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... >> > > >> > > >> > > > John, >> > > > Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that there >> is >> > > another >> > > > company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who >> they >> > > are and >> > > how >> > > > to get a hold of them please post your info. >> > > > YMOS >> > > > Ole # 718 >> > > > ---------- >> > > > >From: manbear >> > > > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> > > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... >> > > > >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see one >> > > listed. >> > > > > >> > > > >Manbear >> > > > > >> > > > >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site? >> > > > >> John Funk >> > > > >> >> > > > >> ---------------------- >> > > > >> hist_text list info: >> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >---------------------- >> > > > >hist_text list info: >> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > ---------------------- >> > > > hist_text list info: >> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ---------------------- >> > > hist_text list info: >> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Stitching Scotsman? Date: 04 May 2000 09:41:31 -0500 Hi Ole, Here is the correct address for John McKee! Phone: 515-658-2739. http://www.stitchinscotsman.com Victoria On Thu, 04 May 2000 07:18:24 -0600 "Ole B. Jensen" writes: > Victoria, > I tried to open the web site that was given in the e-mail, couldn't > do it. > Is there a phone no.? or address? or could someone re enter the > address and > make sure it is correct. > YMOS > Ole > ---------- > >From: Victoria Pate > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > >Date: Wed, May 3, 2000, 5:22 PM > > > > > > >On Tue, 2 May 2000 16:58:21 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr." > > writes: > >> Miss Victoria, > >> I know John from a while back and totally forgot about his > talents > >> with a > >> needle. Shell definitely look him up. My thanks for reminding > me. > >> John Funk > > > >You are most welcome, Mr. Funk. And while you are catchin' > >up with John, ask him about his newest addition to the family, > >Ribeye, who gets bottle fed 3 pints of goat milk three times a > >day, and who recently discovered that grass is quite > >tasty. > > > >Victoria > > > > > > > > > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Victoria Pate > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, May 01, 2000 3:57 PM > >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > >> > >> > >> > Mr. Funk, > >> > > >> > John, Stichin' Scotsman, who is AMM, recently made me a pair of > >> > high top, side seam moccs. I wore them to my first Rendezvous > > >> just > >> > a few weeks ago here in Texas. I had some special needs beins > >> > I was a ballerina for twenty years and just about ruined my > feet. > >> > John did a wonderful job making the moccs around my > requirements. > >> > I know where my second pair of moccs will come from! John > >> specializes > >> > in custom handsewn goods for the American Fur Trade Era, which > > >> includes > >> > clothes for men and the ladies---all authentic. He can > >> > fabricate whatever you need. > >> > > >> > http://www.stichinscotsman.com/ > >> > > >> > As we say here in Texas, I hope you give him a shout. > >> > Texan > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:42:24 -0700 "John C. Funk, Jr." > >> > writes: > >> > > Ole..... > >> > > I'm looking for anyone that can fabricate a moc. better than > >> > > I...and that > >> > > don't say much. If there's a better (authentic) "mouse > trap", > >> I'll > >> > > look at > >> > > it (them). > >> > > John Funk > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > > From: Ole B. Jensen > >> > > To: > >> > > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 7:55 PM > >> > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > John, > >> > > > Hate to barge in on this thread, but I have heard that > there > >> is > >> > > another > >> > > > company making a mocasin like Dyer's? If someone knows who > >> they > >> > > are and > >> > > how > >> > > > to get a hold of them please post your info. > >> > > > YMOS > >> > > > Ole # 718 > >> > > > ---------- > >> > > > >From: manbear > >> > > > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >> > > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dyer web site... > >> > > > >Date: Sun, Apr 30, 2000, 10:17 AM > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >I just checked Dyer's ad in Smoke & Fire and didn't see > one > >> > > listed. > >> > > > > > >> > > > >Manbear > >> > > > > > >> > > > >"John C. Funk, Jr." wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> Anyone know if Dyer has a web site? > >> > > > >> John Funk > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> ---------------------- > >> > > > >> hist_text list info: > >> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >---------------------- > >> > > > >hist_text list info: > >> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ---------------------- > >> > > > hist_text list info: > >> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ---------------------- > >> > > hist_text list info: > >> > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > >> > ---------------------- > >> > hist_text list info: > >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > >> > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: > >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: leather Date: 05 May 2000 14:11:05 -0500 I am wanting to make a possibles bag and some knife sheaths, but don't know what type of leather to use, or where to get it from for that matter. Does anyone have any recommendations? any other advice on the matter would be appreciated.. Thanks, Tony Clark ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]] Date: 05 May 2000 17:41:03 EDT "D Miles" wrote: Concho, I fell in heat with that Jefferson Compass as well., but blew my wad on corn & rice.. Mebby later.... Even told my better half about it, hinting heavily as a b.d. gift............... Dennis, Just received two of those fancy "Thomas Jefferson" compasses from Clark = & Sons Mercantile, one for me the other to pay a debt owed to "Turtle's" on= e son. After receiving it I can see why you said what you did about these compasses, they're really nice quality - plus Buck's price if $12.00 less= than what "Monticello" is asking for them, same compass/same manufacturer, coo= l. Tell the little lady that your brithday is getting close, donate the old = one to the next AMM auction. Later Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]] Date: 05 May 2000 22:34:04 -0400 Ahhh, Concho... I made it to the "old Farts Club" yestidday, according to the Pendleton critter... And Ratcliff said if I can keep from drowning myself, falling off a cliff, pissisng off a ma griz or a jealous husband 'till I turn 50 I can be a "Geezer Ranger" I think I will shoot for it... Anniversery is a comin in the Fall and I have the moon eyes for a compass... Mebby there will be a softness to her.... But there is no harder thing than a woman's breast and you will find no sign there.... According to a wise fella... And as to another Auction... Any volunteers??? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 5:41 PM "D Miles" wrote: Concho, I fell in heat with that Jefferson Compass as well., but blew my wad on corn & rice.. Mebby later.... Even told my better half about it, hinting heavily as a b.d. gift............... Dennis, Just received two of those fancy "Thomas Jefferson" compasses from Clark & Sons Mercantile, one for me the other to pay a debt owed to "Turtle's" one son. After receiving it I can see why you said what you did about these compasses, they're really nice quality - plus Buck's price if $12.00 less than what "Monticello" is asking for them, same compass/same manufacturer, cool. Tell the little lady that your brithday is getting close, donate the old one to the next AMM auction. Later Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark beads]]] Date: 05 May 2000 22:13:53 -0700 Dennis, I don't what all Lanney told you about "THE GEEZER RANGERS " , but here are a couple to interesting notes. They have a motto, but they can't remember it. Their pledge or creed is, " Have prunes will travel ! ". Just something for you to look forward to. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Ahhh, Concho... I made it to the "old Farts Club" yestidday, according to the Pendleton critter... And Ratcliff said if I can keep from drowning myself, falling off a cliff, pissisng off a ma griz or a jealous husband 'till I turn 50 I can be a "Geezer Ranger" I think I will shoot for it... Anniversery is a comin in the Fall and I have the moon eyes for a compass... Mebby there will be a softness to her.... But there is no harder thing than a woman's breast and you will find no sign there.... According to a wise fella... And as to another Auction... Any volunteers??? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 5:41 PM "D Miles" wrote: Concho, I fell in heat with that Jefferson Compass as well., but blew my wad on corn & rice.. Mebby later.... Even told my better half about it, hinting heavily as a b.d. gift............... Dennis, Just received two of those fancy "Thomas Jefferson" compasses from Clark & Sons Mercantile, one for me the other to pay a debt owed to "Turtle's" one son. After receiving it I can see why you said what you did about these compasses, they're really nice quality - plus Buck's price if $12.00 less than what "Monticello" is asking for them, same compass/same manufacturer, cool. Tell the little lady that your brithday is getting close, donate the old one to the next AMM auction. Later Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leather Date: 05 May 2000 20:21:49 -0700 Dear Tony, A possibles bag is not a shooting bag. It carries your food, cooking an' eatin' gear, fishing tackle, etc. I made mine out of heavy linen not leather. If the linen is not heavy enough to pack all your gear without tearing, line it with pillow ticking. It is basically a haversack. Rawhide makes good knife sheaths, simple, durable and molds itself to the blade. If you want something fancier, cover the rawhide with buck skin or elk. Brain tan if you want to mess with bead or quill work. I carry my small camp knife in a sheath made of poorly tanned squirrel hide. Does the job well but looks like hell. Real rustic. Shot the varmint while out deer huntin' with my .54. Killed and gutted the critter with one shot. Didn't make for a pretty fur though. No ones tries to steal that sheath for sure. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 12:11 PM > I am wanting to make a possibles bag and some knife sheaths, but don't know > what type of leather to use, or where to get it from for that matter. Does > anyone have any recommendations? > any other advice on the matter would be appreciated.. > Thanks, > Tony Clark > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Pickert Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leather Date: 06 May 2000 14:27:23 -0700 (PDT) > Tony: I have recently gotten some good deals on leather and if you contact me off list I can email you some pics. price is $2. sq ft.plus ship. ===== Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Squinty54@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Old guns Date: 07 May 2000 19:01:51 EDT I just came into possession of two old rifles that belonged to my grandfather. (Old Remington 30-06 and a Winchester 30-06). They shoot incredibly well and have modified stocks to fit him exactly. They are rifles I will always keep and pass on down to my son. In contemplating this passing of firearms I began to wonder if the same tradition existed in earlier times (18th and 19th centuries). While I am definitely a beginner in this historical re-enactment field I have done some research into early guns but have not found references to guns being passed down within families. My ponderings have led to several questions. Were there guns made during the late 1700's (1760's to 1800) that showed up in the mountains in the 1810's to 1830's? Was it possible that some trappers and mountain men went to the Rockies with guns that belonged to fathers and grandfathers? How long did an early muzzleloader last a man (barring being lost or stolen )? Is it possible that the large caliber early rifles, (early Virginia of the 1760 period to late 18th century rifles) made there way into the rockies during the rendezvous period? I seem to recall having read that several early mountain men used late 18th century Lancaster style rifles. I would be very interested to know if anyone on the list has found reference to these early guns which may lead to the supposition that they could have been passed down within the family? Most Respectfully Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old guns Date: 07 May 2000 17:33:51 -0600 Squinty54@aol.com wrote: > I just came into possession of two old rifles that belonged to my > grandfather. (Old Remington 30-06 and a Winchester 30-06). They shoot > incredibly well and have modified stocks to fit him exactly. They are rifles > I will always keep and pass on down to my son. In contemplating this passing > of firearms I began to wonder if the same tradition existed in earlier times > (18th and 19th centuries). While I am definitely a beginner in this > historical re-enactment field I have done some research into early guns but > have not found references to guns being passed down within families. My > ponderings have led to several questions. > > Were there guns made during the late 1700's (1760's to 1800) that showed up > in the mountains in the 1810's to 1830's? Was it possible that some trappers > and mountain men went to the Rockies with guns that belonged to fathers and > grandfathers? > How long did an early muzzleloader last a man (barring being lost or stolen )? > Is it possible that the large caliber early rifles, (early Virginia of the > 1760 period to late 18th century rifles) made there way into the rockies > during the rendezvous period? > I seem to recall having read that several early mountain men used late 18th > century Lancaster style rifles. I would be very interested to know if anyone > on the list has found reference to these early guns which may lead to the > supposition that they could have been passed down within the family? > > Most Respectfully > Steve Steve, For a short answer to all your questions, it's yes guns have been passed on, carried west, did the fur trade north and southwest. One good example is the military musket, side by side shotgun and of course the trade gun. I'm sure members on the list will get into the different ignitions, barrels lengths, cal, etc. I have several that belonged to family member's that have been passed on for many generations. A pre 1813 Sharpe tradegun, a pre- 1800 Sutherland tradegun, several flint side by sides that are in the late 1700's, same for officer pistols from the F&I and Rev Wars. They all shoot and I have been the last one in the family to make meat with several of them, there's a good example of a weapon - late 1700's making meat in the late 1900's, 200 years ain,t bad for a weapon's life and she isn't done yet. I'm sure my grandson, now 5 will be tempted to try his hand at it when he becomes of age to handle a 46" barrel. I'm sure members on the list have like examples within their families, and have read or researched of old guns lasting longer that my personal examples. Look at edged weapons, have read of swords being cut down, reshaped, etc. from the original metal and still being carried 250-275 years later in Scotland, Ireland and England. Lets hear from Dick, Hawk and the others, good subject Steve. Later Buck Conner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe Date: 07 May 2000 20:58:15 EDT helloooo the list, a BUDDY OF MINE ASKED ME THE OTHER DAY IF i KNEW WHERE TO FIND A RECIPE FOR "APPLE PIE" LIQUOR. I told him that I thought that I had seen it on this here list. Does anyone have a recipe that they could post. Thanks in advance. your servant Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old guns Date: 07 May 2000 20:15:28 -0700 Steve, I can't quote documentation about early trappers carrying their grandpa's rifles or trade guns, but it only makes sense that they did. Most of those guys were young men, who probably didn't have a lot of money to use to get outfitted with. We know that many of them initially signed on as " Company Men ", and drew what gear they needed from the fur company. I to, would like to see some references to early rifles being carried to the " Stony Mountains ", as Jefferson called them. I agree with Buck, this is a great topic ! Pendleton -----Original Message----- I just came into possession of two old rifles that belonged to my grandfather. (Old Remington 30-06 and a Winchester 30-06). They shoot incredibly well and have modified stocks to fit him exactly. They are rifles I will always keep and pass on down to my son. In contemplating this passing of firearms I began to wonder if the same tradition existed in earlier times (18th and 19th centuries). While I am definitely a beginner in this historical re-enactment field I have done some research into early guns but have not found references to guns being passed down within families. My ponderings have led to several questions. Were there guns made during the late 1700's (1760's to 1800) that showed up in the mountains in the 1810's to 1830's? Was it possible that some trappers and mountain men went to the Rockies with guns that belonged to fathers and grandfathers? How long did an early muzzleloader last a man (barring being lost or stolen )? Is it possible that the large caliber early rifles, (early Virginia of the 1760 period to late 18th century rifles) made there way into the rockies during the rendezvous period? I seem to recall having read that several early mountain men used late 18th century Lancaster style rifles. I would be very interested to know if anyone on the list has found reference to these early guns which may lead to the supposition that they could have been passed down within the family? Most Respectfully Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve M Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe Date: 07 May 2000 18:42:47 -0700 Here's a recipe that has been on the list several times. I have made it and it turn out real good. 1 gallon apple cider 1cup brown sugar 1 cup honey 5 cinnamon sticks 7whole cloves juice of 1/2 lemon Simmer all for 45 minutes. Will reduce slightly. Strain out spices, let cool to room temperature. Add 1 fifth Everclear. I could not get Everclear so I subbed for Captain Morgans Rum. The longer it sets, the smoother it gets. Don't never go bad. I also have a recipe for Shrub. If you want it can send it off line for you. Steve"boatkiller" McGehee ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: manbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe Date: 07 May 2000 22:55:38 -0400 Steve, Could I also get the Shrub recipe? A fellow called Doc let us try some at a camp in Niles MI last year but he wouldn't get off the recipe. Thanks and Travel Well Manbear Steve M wrote: > Here's a recipe that has been on the list several times. I have made it > and it turn out real good. > 1 gallon apple cider > 1cup brown sugar > 1 cup honey > 5 cinnamon sticks > 7whole cloves > juice of 1/2 lemon > Simmer all for 45 minutes. Will reduce slightly. > Strain out spices, let cool to room temperature. > Add 1 fifth Everclear. I could not get Everclear so I subbed for Captain > Morgans Rum. > The longer it sets, the smoother it gets. Don't never go bad. I also > have a recipe for Shrub. If you want it can send it off line for you. > > Steve"boatkiller" McGehee > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: manbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe Date: 07 May 2000 23:35:10 -0400 List Members, My most humble apologies for that last message. it was supposed to go to Steve Off-List but I didn't notice that the Reply To is set back to the list. Most other lists I belong to have reply set to the sender and reply to set to All. Again my Humble Apologies Manbear manbear wrote: > Steve, > > Could I also get the Shrub recipe? A fellow called Doc let us try some at > a camp in Niles MI last year but he wouldn't get off the recipe. > > Thanks and Travel Well > > Manbear > > Steve M wrote: > > > Here's a recipe that has been on the list several times. I have made it > > and it turn out real good. > > 1 gallon apple cider > > 1cup brown sugar > > 1 cup honey > > 5 cinnamon sticks > > 7whole cloves > > juice of 1/2 lemon > > Simmer all for 45 minutes. Will reduce slightly. > > Strain out spices, let cool to room temperature. > > Add 1 fifth Everclear. I could not get Everclear so I subbed for Captain > > Morgans Rum. > > The longer it sets, the smoother it gets. Don't never go bad. I also > > have a recipe for Shrub. If you want it can send it off line for you. > > > > Steve"boatkiller" McGehee > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe Date: 07 May 2000 22:21:48 -0500 That recipe sounds pretty good....really easy to chug. Be aware that = the alcohol figures out to be about 20%......40 proof...and could sneak = up on anybody not aware of its potency. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2000 8:42 PM > Here's a recipe that has been on the list several times. I have made = it > and it turn out real good. > 1 gallon apple cider > 1cup brown sugar > 1 cup honey > 5 cinnamon sticks > 7whole cloves > juice of 1/2 lemon > Simmer all for 45 minutes. Will reduce slightly. > Strain out spices, let cool to room temperature. > Add 1 fifth Everclear. I could not get Everclear so I subbed for = Captain > Morgans Rum. > The longer it sets, the smoother it gets. Don't never go bad. I also > have a recipe for Shrub. If you want it can send it off line for you. >=20 > Steve"boatkiller" McGehee >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe Date: 07 May 2000 23:55:32 EDT Steve why not share your Shrub recipe with the list too. It might be easier Manbear isn't the only one what's got a taste for some shrub. This child has got a powerful dry on his own self. Crazy Cyot i ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve M Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe Date: 07 May 2000 21:20:10 -0700 I got this recipe from some one on the list some time ago. I have not tried it myself, but it sure sounds gooood! Fifth of white rum 3 oranges 3 lemons 1/2 cup sugar. Take the zest of all lemons and oranges (that's just the peel, no white stuff) and add to a bowl that holds at least a half a gallon. Juice oranges and lemons and add the juice to the bowl, no pulp or pith. Add rum, cover tightly and let sit at room temperature for 3 days. After 3 days, strain, add half a fifth of water and stir in 1/2 cup sugar. I have been told this stuff will sneak up on you. Oh what the heck have at it. You only live once they say. Steve"boatkiller"McGehee ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Apple pie recipe Date: 08 May 2000 08:44:54 EDT Thanks Boatkiller, And to all of you who responded. I'll pass these recipes along to my buddy, and then watch him fall down, he-he. I appreciate you rapid response. "Sleeps Loudly" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old guns Date: 08 May 2000 07:47:55 -0600 Larry, I saw this thread and felt that I needed to tell you something. A year ago I came into posession of an 1814 common rifle in 54 cal flint. This weapon was made for the war of 1812. how did it get to Utah? and why wasn't it converted?. This is not the first such weapon that I have seen. It stands to reason that valubles have been passed down since the begining of time and this would include gun's. I don't know if the Rifle that I have came out with a traper? or a gun dealer in 1958? but would guess that someone cared for it a long time. I belive that as most of you, I will pass on my gun's either to a member of my family who I know will take care of them as I have or I will give them to such a freind that I know will respect and keep them safe. YMOS Ole ---------- >From: "larry pendleton" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old guns >Date: Sun, May 7, 2000, 9:15 PM > >Steve, > I can't quote documentation about early trappers carrying their grandpa's >rifles or trade guns, but it only makes sense that they did. Most of those >guys were young men, who probably didn't have a lot of money to use to get >outfitted with. We know that many of them initially signed on as " Company >Men ", and drew what gear they needed from the fur company. I to, would >like to see some references to early rifles being carried to the " Stony >Mountains ", as Jefferson called them. I agree with Buck, this is a great >topic ! >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: Squinty54@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Sunday, May 07, 2000 4:05 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Old guns > > >I just came into possession of two old rifles that belonged to my >grandfather. (Old Remington 30-06 and a Winchester 30-06). They shoot >incredibly well and have modified stocks to fit him exactly. They are >rifles >I will always keep and pass on down to my son. In contemplating this >passing >of firearms I began to wonder if the same tradition existed in earlier times >(18th and 19th centuries). While I am definitely a beginner in this >historical re-enactment field I have done some research into early guns but >have not found references to guns being passed down within families. My >ponderings have led to several questions. > >Were there guns made during the late 1700's (1760's to 1800) that showed up >in the mountains in the 1810's to 1830's? Was it possible that some >trappers >and mountain men went to the Rockies with guns that belonged to fathers and >grandfathers? >How long did an early muzzleloader last a man (barring being lost or >stolen )? >Is it possible that the large caliber early rifles, (early Virginia of the >1760 period to late 18th century rifles) made there way into the rockies >during the rendezvous period? >I seem to recall having read that several early mountain men used late 18th >century Lancaster style rifles. I would be very interested to know if >anyone >on the list has found reference to these early guns which may lead to the >supposition that they could have been passed down within the family? > >Most Respectfully >Steve > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bobbie Subject: MtMan-List: saw Date: 08 May 2000 10:10:30 -0600 I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering..... I don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that would be period correct, would there? Bobbie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 08 May 2000 13:06:17 EDT Bobbie, I haven't seen anything in 'folding' saws, but Panther does sell a camp saw that is of primitive design, relatively light weight, measures 15 x 21 and I can tell you from personal experience, it works GREAT. Its # 3000-744-2 and sells for $22.00 (per page 96 of Catalog # 12). Hope this is of some help. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 08 May 2000 12:05:05 -0700 Bobbie, I'm not aware of any saws being packed by eastern hunters or mountain men but many of us do carry one at times. Usually only on canoe trips or winter camps. I made my saw and it really is quit easy. Not expensive either. I used oak pallet material and a commercial camp saw blade. You can make a simple "H" frame saw with the cross bar mortised into the uprights. Use some heavy cord between the two upper arms with a "Paddle" in the cord to wind it tight to take tension on the blade and then "lock" it on the cross bar so it doesn't unwind. use a couple quarter inch bolts as pins throughout the lower ends of the upright to secure the blade at both ends. Cut a couple slits in the bottom of the upright to slide the blade into. The uprights need to be the length of the blade apart when vertical so that is how you figure the length of the cross brace. The blade needs to be around half its length or a bit more, down from the cross piece and the cord about half the length of the blade up away from the cross brace. You can get much fancier than that and make it quit a work of art but that is the basic machine. IF you have specific design questions, feel free. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 9:10 AM > I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering..... I > don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that would > be period correct, would there? > > Bobbie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 08 May 2000 13:49:50 -0600 Not getting commercial here, but there are the plans for what I think is a very nice collapsible saw (I have carried one for years: invaluable if you are riding horseback in the canyons and encounter downfall) in my new book "Lighting Grandma's Fire". I think you can get it on Amazon. Bill C -----Original Message----- >Bobbie, > >I'm not aware of any saws being packed by eastern hunters or mountain men >but many of us do carry one at times. Usually only on canoe trips or winter >camps. I made my saw and it really is quit easy. Not expensive either. > >I used oak pallet material and a commercial camp saw blade. You can make a >simple "H" frame saw with the cross bar mortised into the uprights. Use some >heavy cord between the two upper arms with a "Paddle" in the cord to wind it >tight to take tension on the blade and then "lock" it on the cross bar so it >doesn't unwind. > >use a couple quarter inch bolts as pins throughout the lower ends of the >upright to secure the blade at both ends. Cut a couple slits in the bottom >of the upright to slide the blade into. The uprights need to be the length >of the blade apart when vertical so that is how you figure the length of the >cross brace. The blade needs to be around half its length or a bit more, >down from the cross piece and the cord about half the length of the blade up >away from the cross brace. > >You can get much fancier than that and make it quit a work of art but that >is the basic machine. IF you have specific design questions, feel free. I >remain..... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bobbie" >To: >Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 9:10 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: saw > > >> I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering..... I >> don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that would >> be period correct, would there? >> >> Bobbie >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 08 May 2000 15:09:37 -0600 Bobbie wrote: > I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering..... I > don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that would > be period correct, would there? > > Bobbie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html see Clark & Sons Mercantile: http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ good blade and enough wood to do a little carving to make it personal. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 08 May 2000 14:07:18 -0500 --=====================_337304006==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bobbie, There are several styles of saw correct to the period. What is it you want to cut? Metal, wood, bone? Fine work or coarse? John... At 10:10 AM 5/8/00 -0600, you wrote: > I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering..... I >don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that would >be period correct, would there? > > Bobbie > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer --=====================_337304006==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Bobbie,

There are several styles of saw correct to the period. 

What is it you want to cut?  Metal, wood, bone?  Fine work or coarse?

John...


At 10:10 AM 5/8/00 -0600, you wrote:
   I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering..... I
don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that would
be period correct, would there?

       Bobbie

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <kramer@kramerize.com> --=====================_337304006==_.ALT-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Question Date: 08 May 2000 19:42:32 EDT Bows: Charlie Acuna, POB 1681, Taos, NM (505) 758-1262. Very beautiful work. Also does some mighty fine knapping. Hope this helps, Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: raw horns Date: 08 May 2000 19:39:12 -0500 Can anyone tell me where to get good quality horns for making powder horns with scrimshaw? Thanks, northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 09 May 2000 01:11:44 -0700 have a small bow saw made of oak that would be period correct---easy to make--use a piece of wire to tighten or a bit of artificial senue---easy to make and take apart for carrying---I have mine made into a meat saw and a hack saw size works great could trace it and give you aome dimentions if you needed them--- YMHOSANT =+= HAWK Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce On Mon, 08 May 2000 10:10:30 -0600 Bobbie writes: > I'm finding myself needing a saw of some sort, and wondering..... > I > don't suppose there would be anything like a small folding saw that > would > be period correct, would there? > > Bobbie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 09 May 2000 06:03:06 -0400 Hawk, Gads Son! Can't be period correct if you use artificial sinew.. Didn't you know that that stuff comes from those naug critters?? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 09 May 2000 01:32:30 -0600 Dennis, You are so right! Many, many of us reenactors are under the misunder- standing that using artifical sinew makes something authenic. It is a good replacement- strong, light weight and easy to use, but not correct. I have been using linen thread and real sinew for the latest projects of mine and been happy with them. Some how, we have accepted that use of this "sinew" is correct. Maybe it is time to rethink this. mike. D Miles wrote: > Hawk, > Gads Son! Can't be period correct if you use artificial sinew.. Didn't you > know that that stuff comes from those naug critters?? > D > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 09 May 2000 09:27:44 -0400 What people have to remember, is the "ARTIFICIAL" in artificial sinew.. It is nothing more than waxed NYLON thread. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 09 May 2000 09:31:32 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BFB999.5CD71E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, = documented items in various forms.All high quality.... But for some = reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade = lists.....GO figger... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BFB999.5CD71E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Boy, I am on a roll now...
 I also see way to many sutlers = out there that=20 sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high = quality....=20 But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their = trade=20 lists.....GO figger...
D
 
 
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e"
          DOUBLE EDGE = FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   = http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 =20 "Knowing how is just the beginning"
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BFB999.5CD71E80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 09 May 2000 08:50:32 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFB993.A26DD020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought = in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had = a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory = tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a = hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it = brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, = would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it = might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or = less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so = in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial = sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a = fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) = depended on it? Bill C -----Original Message----- From: D Miles To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC = authentic, documented items in various forms.All high quality.... But = for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their = trade lists.....GO figger... D =20 =20 "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFB993.A26DD020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was watching that antiques = roadshow program=20 one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked = nice and=20 he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that = it was=20 factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained = was a=20 hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it = brought to=20 mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would you be = able to=20 obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need = it for?=20 Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is = tricky at=20 best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, = perhaps,=20 a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical=20 authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some = cases,=20 your budget) depended on it?
Bill = C
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 D Miles <deforge1@bright.net>
To:= =20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Artificial=20 Sinew (was saws)

Boy, I am on a roll = now...
 I also see way to many = sutlers out there=20 that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All = high=20 quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list = "artificial=20 sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...
D
 
 
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu = math=20 e"
          = DOUBLE=20 EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron = Accoutrements
  =20 http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 =20 "Knowing how is just the=20 beginning"
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFB993.A26DD020-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bobbie Subject: MtMan-List: Saws.. Thanks! Date: 09 May 2000 09:11:04 -0600 Thanks for all the terrific replies on saws. It's going to take me a while to digest all of this, and I will be looking up some of the suggestions. I do appreciate all the info. I hope it's ok if I get back to some of you privately about some of your suggestions that I may have questions on. On a different note, I fletched my first arrows yesterday, and on a high from that. This is a skill that will take lots of practice, but I'm pleased with the results. Thanks again!! Bobbie, off to look for turkey feathers...... ^_^ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 09 May 2000 10:57:14 -0700 list please forgive me for my transgression---on the A _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ l Senu line--- HAWK Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 09 May 2000 10:37:17 -0700 D slap my hands and scuff my toe---ment to say senue or a leather whang I am sure---must have been my medication that forced me to do such a gramerical slip of words and such---please note that I will punish myself this eve by reducing the amoutn of libation that i will intake to atone for my sin and quickness to response---therefore the chastizement is and will be noted in the record book of life in the area of transgressions of words and text I know how difficult it is to trap them darn noggies and then to skin them out and get that stuff for plastic buckskinners to utilize in their undercover mode---saw a bunch of them on the beach last week ----the pink noggies with the small little cloth coverings that are best left off because of lack of area covered.. again please foregive my transgressions YMHOSANT =+= HAWK Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 09 May 2000 08:36:34 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BFB991.AEA66480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If survival is your only goal, rip-stop nylon, gor-tex, stainless steel = , down sleeping bags and high-impact light-weight plastic are the way to = go. Most Mountain supply stores carry this stuff. If your interest = lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well as anything artifical and = sinew is free, it comes off the animal you shot. Regular animal gut = could be used for a saw bow winch. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Cunningham=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:50 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy = brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure = he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was = factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained = was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it = brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, = would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it = might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or = less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so = in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial = sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a = fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) = depended on it? Bill C -----Original Message----- From: D Miles To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC = authentic, documented items in various forms.All high quality.... But = for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their = trade lists.....GO figger... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BFB991.AEA66480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If survival is your only goal, rip-stop = nylon,=20 gor-tex, stainless steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact = light-weight=20 plastic are the way to go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry this=20 stuff.  If your interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well = as=20 anything artifical and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you = shot. =20 Regular animal gut could be used for a saw bow winch.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Cunningham
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 = 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Artificial Sinew=20 (was saws)

I was watching that antiques = roadshow program=20 one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked = nice=20 and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him = that it=20 was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he = explained=20 was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But = it=20 brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, = would you=20 be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be = that you'd=20 need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing = it is=20 tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, = or=20 rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely = long?=20 Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your = life (or in=20 some cases, your budget) depended on it?
Bill = C
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 D Miles <deforge1@bright.net>
To:= =20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Artificial=20 Sinew (was saws)

Boy, I am on a roll = now...
 I also see way to many = sutlers out there=20 that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All = high=20 quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial = sinew"=20 on their trade lists.....GO figger...
D
 
 
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e"
          DOUBLE = EDGE=20 FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron = Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 =20 "Knowing how is just the=20 beginning"
------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BFB991.AEA66480-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 09 May 2000 12:07:32 -0400 Hawk, Please Sir, do not lessen your libation ration on my account.. But for true atonement, you should send me a portion of that ration...Then true atonement will be fulfilled and you shall be absolved completely of your transgression and be allowed in the portion of Heaven reserved for such folks as Glass, 'Ol Gabe & such fella's that led the way... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 09 May 2000 11:20:17 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFB9A8.8DF744E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have tried the linen thread - in various weights. The smaller stuff = failed, but some stuff I got from a shoe repair shop worked well. The = only problem I have had with it is that over time it does tend to rot, = especially if used to patch a moccasin. I have never tried animal gut. = Great suggestion and one I will follow up on. I shouldn't imagine it = would have too much stretch. I once read of someone soaking a leather = whang in blood, rolling it in the sand to catch particles, letting it = dry somewhat and then using it as a sort of saw. Without further = instructions I tried it. It worked - to a degree, but I had to keep = making new "saws" because, at least the way I did it, they don't last = long. -----Original Message----- From: Larry Huber To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 If survival is your only goal, rip-stop nylon, gor-tex, stainless = steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact light-weight plastic are the = way to go. Most Mountain supply stores carry this stuff. If your = interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well as anything = artifical and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you shot. Regular = animal gut could be used for a saw bow winch. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Cunningham=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:50 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy = brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure = he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was = factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained = was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it = brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, = would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it = might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or = less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so = in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial = sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a = fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) = depended on it? Bill C -----Original Message----- From: D Miles To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com = Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell = FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high = quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial = sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger... D =20 =20 "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFB9A8.8DF744E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have tried the linen thread - in = various=20 weights. The smaller stuff failed, but some stuff I got from a shoe = repair shop=20 worked well. The only problem I have had with it is that over time it = does tend=20 to rot, especially if used to patch a moccasin. I have never tried = animal gut.=20 Great suggestion and one I will follow up on. I shouldn't imagine it = would have=20 too much stretch. I once read of someone soaking a leather whang in = blood,=20 rolling it in the sand to catch particles, letting it dry somewhat and = then=20 using it as a sort of saw. Without further instructions I tried it. It = worked -=20 to a degree, but I had to keep making new "saws" because, at = least the=20 way I did it, they don't last long.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Larry Huber <shootsprairie@hotmail.com&g= t;
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Artificial Sinew (was saws)

If survival is your only goal, = rip-stop nylon,=20 gor-tex, stainless steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact = light-weight=20 plastic are the way to go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry = this=20 stuff.  If your interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as = well as=20 anything artifical and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you=20 shot.  Regular animal gut could be used for a saw bow=20 winch.
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Bill=20 Cunningham
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, = 2000 7:50=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Artificial=20 Sinew (was saws)

I was watching that antiques = roadshow=20 program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It = really=20 looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the = antique guy=20 showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with = artificial=20 sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You = could see=20 the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of = questions. In=20 true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough = sinew to=20 take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since = sinew is=20 typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at = best,=20 would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or = rather,=20 perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely = long?=20 Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if = your life=20 (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?
Bill = C
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: D Miles <deforge1@bright.net>
To:= =20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
Subject: = MtMan-List:=20 Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Boy, I am on a roll = now...
 I also see way to = many sutlers=20 out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in = various=20 forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of = them also=20 list "artificial sinew" on their trade = lists.....GO=20 figger...
D
 
 
"Abair ach beagan is = abair gu math=20 = e"
         =20 DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron=20 Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 =20 "Knowing how is just the=20 = beginning"
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFB9A8.8DF744E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 09 May 2000 11:26:22 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFB9A9.67AD85A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Along with learning the early mountain man survival skills (early on we = decided to eschew modern equipment for survival) I once made a bedroll = from cat tail leaves, reeds, and milk weed. It works, but you'd better = be a strong sleeper - it tended to leak cold air in and was a trifle = noisy. Like down (available for as long as there have been geese) it is = prone to failure when it gets wet. Plastic, under extreme cold, tends to = fracture under stress. I have never had a wood pack frame or a nice = leather or linen haversack do that. I have, in my youth when more of = them were available, seen hand forged axes shatter under normal use in = the very cold winter months.=20 -----Original Message----- From: Larry Huber To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 If survival is your only goal, rip-stop nylon, gor-tex, stainless = steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact light-weight plastic are the = way to go. Most Mountain supply stores carry this stuff. If your = interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well as anything = artifical and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you shot. Regular = animal gut could be used for a saw bow winch. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Cunningham=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:50 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy = brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure = he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was = factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained = was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it = brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, = would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it = might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or = less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so = in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial = sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a = fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) = depended on it? Bill C -----Original Message----- From: D Miles To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com = Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell = FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high = quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial = sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger... D =20 =20 "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFB9A9.67AD85A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Along with learning the early = mountain man=20 survival skills (early on we decided to eschew modern equipment for = survival) I=20 once made a bedroll from cat tail leaves, reeds, and milk weed. It = works, but=20 you'd better be a strong sleeper - it tended to leak cold air in and was = a=20 trifle noisy. Like down (available for as long as there have been geese) = it is=20 prone to failure when it gets wet. Plastic, under extreme cold, tends to = fracture under stress. I have never had a wood pack frame or a nice = leather or=20 linen haversack do that. I have, in my youth when more of them were = available,=20 seen hand forged axes shatter under normal use in the very cold winter = months.=20
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Larry Huber <shootsprairie@hotmail.com&g= t;
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Artificial Sinew (was saws)

If survival is your only goal, = rip-stop nylon,=20 gor-tex, stainless steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact = light-weight=20 plastic are the way to go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry = this=20 stuff.  If your interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as = well as=20 anything artifical and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you=20 shot.  Regular animal gut could be used for a saw bow=20 winch.
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Bill=20 Cunningham
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, = 2000 7:50=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Artificial=20 Sinew (was saws)

I was watching that antiques = roadshow=20 program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It = really=20 looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the = antique guy=20 showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with = artificial=20 sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You = could see=20 the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of = questions. In=20 true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough = sinew to=20 take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since = sinew is=20 typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at = best,=20 would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or = rather,=20 perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely = long?=20 Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if = your life=20 (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?
Bill = C
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: D Miles <deforge1@bright.net>
To:= =20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
Subject: = MtMan-List:=20 Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Boy, I am on a roll = now...
 I also see way to = many sutlers=20 out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in = various=20 forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of = them also=20 list "artificial sinew" on their trade = lists.....GO=20 figger...
D
 
 
"Abair ach beagan is = abair gu math=20 = e"
         =20 DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron=20 Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 =20 "Knowing how is just the=20 = beginning"
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFB9A9.67AD85A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 09 May 2000 10:54:22 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01BFB9A4.EF370A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky = at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or = rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely = long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your = life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it? Bill C Bill, Your point is well taken, in that when your life depends on it, there = may be no historical substitute for modern technology. I think the point = is also well made that the goal is to do well with less and do it the = old way. I'm not going to set here and tell anyone that I don't have = some artificial sinew and that all my gear is 100% authentic, nor do I = have it pared down to the bare minimum. What I carry for maintenence of = my comfort level that is not strictly correct is just where I am at in = making the transition from a modern person to a more natural man.=20 But when it comes to my safety or the safety of my commrads, modern = usually wins out. I guess I could carry a medicine bundle of herbs and = etc.'s but I choose to carry a modern first aid "kit". Perhpas I know of = herbs that will stem bleeding or ease a head ache and if I find them I = might think to use them but I also carry bandaid's and modern analgesics = in case I don't. I know how to collect sinew and how to use it, along = with carrying it, but I also carry some more modern fibers/threads in = case the emergency is just too great, (as you pointed out).=20 I don't carry a brazier in the canoe much less on my back and wouldn't = even if they existed. I also have a new cast iron pot (rounded with = three long legs) that I may carry by boat but it is not someing anyone = in their right mind would want to carry on their back. I doubt I would = subject a horse to such extra weight. I have straight sided "dutch = ovens" that I have used in the past at National Drive and Dump = Rendezvous but I quit taking it simply because it probably was not even = close to representative of the kinds of "dutch ovens" used in big camps = or forts in the Rockies. There are many other items that I have = accumulated over the years that sure make life more cofortable at Drive = and Dumps but insofar as my wife will let me, we leave them at home now. = =20 It isn't my place to criticize anyone for what they feel they need to = do or use anymore than it is anyone's place to criticize me for my = choices but I am only fooling myself if I am so ingenuous as to suggest = that the short cuts I take are ok without some reasonable explanation as = to why I take them. And it is our place to advocate that we all try our = hardest to do it right and where possible show each other and the new = person the right way. So you and I may very well continue to carry a few = feet of "artificial sinew" just for emergencies but we will work towards = learning how to harvest and use the real thing because that is the game = we are playing. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Aux Aliments de Pays! ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01BFB9A4.EF370A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since sinew is typically 12" long = or less, and=20 splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your = possibles=20 pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is=20 infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but = what if=20 your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?
Bill = C
 
Bill,
 
Your point is well taken, in that when your life depends on it, = there may=20 be no historical substitute for modern technology. I think the point = is also=20 well made that the goal is to do well with less and do it the old way. = I'm not=20 going to set here and tell anyone that I don't have some artificial = sinew and=20 that all my gear is 100% authentic, nor do I have it pared down to the = bare=20 minimum. What I carry for maintenence of my comfort  level that = is not=20 strictly correct is just where I am at in making the transition from a = modern=20 person to a more natural man.
 
But when it comes to my safety or the safety of my commrads, = modern=20 usually wins out. I guess I could carry a medicine bundle of herbs and = etc.'s=20 but I choose to carry a modern first aid "kit". Perhpas I know of = herbs that=20 will stem bleeding or ease a head ache and if I find them I might = think to use=20 them but I also carry bandaid's and modern analgesics in case I don't. = I know=20 how to collect sinew and how to use it, along with carrying it, but I = also=20 carry some more modern fibers/threads in case the emergency is just = too great,=20 (as you pointed out).
 
I don't carry a brazier in the canoe much less on my back and = wouldn't=20 even if they existed. I also have a new cast iron pot (rounded with = three long=20 legs) that I may carry by boat but it is not someing anyone in their = right=20 mind would want to carry on their back. I doubt I would subject a = horse to=20 such extra weight. I have straight sided "dutch ovens" that I have = used in the=20 past at National Drive and Dump Rendezvous but I quit taking it simply = because=20 it probably was not even close to representative of the kinds of = "dutch ovens"=20 used in big camps or forts in the Rockies. There are many other items = that I=20 have accumulated over the years that sure make life more cofortable at = Drive=20 and Dumps but insofar as my wife will let me, we leave them at home = now.=20 <G>
 
It isn't my place to criticize anyone for what they feel they = need to do=20 or use anymore than it is anyone's place to criticize me for my = choices but I=20 am only fooling myself if I am so ingenuous as to suggest that the = short cuts=20 I take are ok without some reasonable explanation as to why I take = them. And=20 it is our place to advocate that we all try our hardest to do it right = and=20 where possible show each other and the new person the right way. So = you and=20 I may very well continue to carry a few feet of "artificial = sinew" just=20 for emergencies but we will work towards learning how to harvest and = use the=20 real thing because that is the game we are playing. I remain....
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
Aux Aliments de Pays!
------=_NextPart_000_0070_01BFB9A4.EF370A00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: MtMan-List: Saws or files Date: 09 May 2000 12:05:47 -0600 Ho the List, Here's something I am just reading...... It is from a book called "Belden, The White Chief" by George P. Belden "The most curious process was making files and rasps. To do this, an alder berry stick was taken and split in two. The pith was then scraped out, and in the grove thus formed, was poured glue, mixed with pounded flint. When dry, the particles of flint formed the teeth of the rasp, or file. If the file became dull, it was only necessary to wash it in hot water, when the glue and old pieces of flint washed out and new teeth appeared. These files were very handy, and of vast use to the Indians. What steel is to iron, they are to the wood and stone used by the Indian. When ponies hoofs became too long, or splintered, they were trimmed down by these rasps; also, ax handles, teepee poles, and iron, even, were rubbed down with them." May be something worth playing with. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: bcunningham@gwe.net [SMTP:bcunningham@gwe.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:20 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) > > I have tried the linen thread - in various weights. The smaller stuff > failed, but some stuff I got from a shoe repair shop worked well. The only > problem I have had with it is that over time it does tend to rot, > especially if used to patch a moccasin. I have never tried animal gut. > Great suggestion and one I will follow up on. I shouldn't imagine it would > have too much stretch. I once read of someone soaking a leather whang in > blood, rolling it in the sand to catch particles, letting it dry somewhat > and then using it as a sort of saw. Without further instructions I tried > it. It worked - to a degree, but I had to keep making new "saws" because, > at least the way I did it, they don't last long. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Huber < shootsprairie@hotmail.com > > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > < hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) > > > If survival is your only goal, rip-stop nylon, gor-tex, stainless > steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact light-weight plastic are the > way to go. Most Mountain supply stores carry this stuff. If your > interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well as anything artifical > and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you shot. Regular animal gut > could be used for a saw bow winch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Cunningham > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:50 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) > > I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a > guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was > sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was > factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained > was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it > brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would > you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be > that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and > splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your > possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew > which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine > goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on > it? > Bill C > > -----Original Message----- > From: D Miles < deforge1@bright.net > > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > < hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) > > > Boy, I am on a roll now... > I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell > FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high > quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial > sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger... > D > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws or files Date: 09 May 2000 14:55:49 -0600 Looks like it would beat whang, blood and sand. -----Original Message----- Ho the List, Here's something I am just reading...... It is from a book called "Belden, The White Chief" by George P. Belden "The most curious process was making files and rasps. To do this, an alder berry stick was taken and split in two. The pith was then scraped out, and in the grove thus formed, was poured glue, mixed with pounded flint. When dry, the particles of flint formed the teeth of the rasp, or file. If the file became dull, it was only necessary to wash it in hot water, when the glue and old pieces of flint washed out and new teeth appeared. These files were very handy, and of vast use to the Indians. What steel is to iron, they are to the wood and stone used by the Indian. When ponies hoofs became too long, or splintered, they were trimmed down by these rasps; also, ax handles, teepee poles, and iron, even, were rubbed down with them." May be something worth playing with. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: bcunningham@gwe.net [SMTP:bcunningham@gwe.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:20 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) > > I have tried the linen thread - in various weights. The smaller stuff > failed, but some stuff I got from a shoe repair shop worked well. The only > problem I have had with it is that over time it does tend to rot, > especially if used to patch a moccasin. I have never tried animal gut. > Great suggestion and one I will follow up on. I shouldn't imagine it would > have too much stretch. I once read of someone soaking a leather whang in > blood, rolling it in the sand to catch particles, letting it dry somewhat > and then using it as a sort of saw. Without further instructions I tried > it. It worked - to a degree, but I had to keep making new "saws" because, > at least the way I did it, they don't last long. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Huber < shootsprairie@hotmail.com > > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > < hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) > > > If survival is your only goal, rip-stop nylon, gor-tex, stainless > steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact light-weight plastic are the > way to go. Most Mountain supply stores carry this stuff. If your > interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well as anything artifical > and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you shot. Regular animal gut > could be used for a saw bow winch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Cunningham > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:50 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) > > I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a > guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was > sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was > factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained > was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it > brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would > you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be > that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and > splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your > possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew > which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine > goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on > it? > Bill C > > -----Original Message----- > From: D Miles < deforge1@bright.net > > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > < hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) > > > Boy, I am on a roll now... > I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell > FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high > quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial > sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger... > D > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 09 May 2000 14:57:49 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BFB9C6.F16ED920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well said - nothing I can add to that. -----Original Message----- From: Roger Lahti To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:56 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is = tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, = or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely = long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your = life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it? Bill C =20 Bill, =20 Your point is well taken, in that when your life depends on it, = there may be no historical substitute for modern technology. I think the = point is also well made that the goal is to do well with less and do it = the old way. I'm not going to set here and tell anyone that I don't have = some artificial sinew and that all my gear is 100% authentic, nor do I = have it pared down to the bare minimum. What I carry for maintenence of = my comfort level that is not strictly correct is just where I am at in = making the transition from a modern person to a more natural man.=20 =20 But when it comes to my safety or the safety of my commrads, = modern usually wins out. I guess I could carry a medicine bundle of = herbs and etc.'s but I choose to carry a modern first aid "kit". Perhpas = I know of herbs that will stem bleeding or ease a head ache and if I = find them I might think to use them but I also carry bandaid's and = modern analgesics in case I don't. I know how to collect sinew and how = to use it, along with carrying it, but I also carry some more modern = fibers/threads in case the emergency is just too great, (as you pointed = out).=20 =20 I don't carry a brazier in the canoe much less on my back and = wouldn't even if they existed. I also have a new cast iron pot (rounded = with three long legs) that I may carry by boat but it is not someing = anyone in their right mind would want to carry on their back. I doubt I = would subject a horse to such extra weight. I have straight sided "dutch = ovens" that I have used in the past at National Drive and Dump = Rendezvous but I quit taking it simply because it probably was not even = close to representative of the kinds of "dutch ovens" used in big camps = or forts in the Rockies. There are many other items that I have = accumulated over the years that sure make life more cofortable at Drive = and Dumps but insofar as my wife will let me, we leave them at home now. = =20 =20 It isn't my place to criticize anyone for what they feel they = need to do or use anymore than it is anyone's place to criticize me for = my choices but I am only fooling myself if I am so ingenuous as to = suggest that the short cuts I take are ok without some reasonable = explanation as to why I take them. And it is our place to advocate that = we all try our hardest to do it right and where possible show each other = and the new person the right way. So you and I may very well continue to = carry a few feet of "artificial sinew" just for emergencies but we will = work towards learning how to harvest and use the real thing because that = is the game we are playing. I remain.... =20 YMOS Capt. Lahti' =20 Aux Aliments de Pays! ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BFB9C6.F16ED920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well said - nothing I can add to=20 that.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Roger Lahti <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Since sinew is typically = 12" long=20 or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 = feet or=20 so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of=20 artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical = authenticity is=20 great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, = your=20 budget) depended on it?
Bill = C
 
Bill,
 
Your point is well taken, in that when your life depends on = it,=20 there may be no historical substitute for modern technology. I = think the=20 point is also well made that the goal is to do well with less = and do it=20 the old way. I'm not going to set here and tell anyone that I = don't have=20 some artificial sinew and that all my gear is 100% authentic, = nor do I=20 have it pared down to the bare minimum. What I carry for = maintenence of=20 my comfort  level that is not strictly correct is just = where I am=20 at in making the transition from a modern person to a more = natural man.=20
 
But when it comes to my safety or the safety of my = commrads, modern=20 usually wins out. I guess I could carry a medicine bundle of = herbs and=20 etc.'s but I choose to carry a modern first aid "kit". = Perhpas=20 I know of herbs that will stem bleeding or ease a head ache and = if I=20 find them I might think to use them but I also carry bandaid's = and=20 modern analgesics in case I don't. I know how to collect sinew = and how=20 to use it, along with carrying it, but I also carry some more = modern=20 fibers/threads in case the emergency is just too great, (as you = pointed=20 out).
 
I don't carry a brazier in the canoe much less on my back = and=20 wouldn't even if they existed. I also have a new cast iron pot = (rounded=20 with three long legs) that I may carry by boat but it is not = someing=20 anyone in their right mind would want to carry on their back. I = doubt I=20 would subject a horse to such extra weight. I have straight = sided=20 "dutch ovens" that I have used in the past at National = Drive=20 and Dump Rendezvous but I quit taking it simply because it = probably was=20 not even close to representative of the kinds of "dutch = ovens"=20 used in big camps or forts in the Rockies. There are many other = items=20 that I have accumulated over the years that sure make life more=20 cofortable at Drive and Dumps but insofar as my wife will let = me, we=20 leave them at home now. <G>
 
It isn't my place to criticize anyone for what they feel = they need=20 to do or use anymore than it is anyone's place to criticize me = for my=20 choices but I am only fooling myself if I am so ingenuous as to = suggest=20 that the short cuts I take are ok without some reasonable = explanation as=20 to why I take them. And it is our place to advocate that we all = try our=20 hardest to do it right and where possible show each other and = the new=20 person the right way. So you and I may very well continue = to carry=20 a few feet of "artificial sinew" just for emergencies = but we=20 will work towards learning how to harvest and use the real thing = because=20 that is the game we are playing. I remain....
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
Aux Aliments de = Pays!
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BFB9C6.F16ED920-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 09 May 2000 10:41:40 -0600 --------------5250F167CC21CB9092B34509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying artifical sinew. I just feel that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for building a shelter, making a tripod or any putting together any number of things are sinew, rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me (and this is only my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and have authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable? Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have choosen sides in the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you and your equipment the best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive, maybe even be comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair. Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows. And different guys like different things at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer out and make people think???? mike. people. Bill Cunningham wrote: > I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy > brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was > sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was > factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he > explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just > wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival > situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of > whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically > 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry > 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small > coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical > authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in > some cases, your budget) depended on it?Bill C > > -----Original Message----- > From: D Miles > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) > Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers > out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in > various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, > allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade > lists.....GO figger...D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math > e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > --------------5250F167CC21CB9092B34509 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill,
    I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying artifical sinew. I just feel
that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for building a shelter, making
a tripod or any putting together any  number of  things are sinew, rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me (and this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and have authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?
Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have choosen sides in
the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you and your equipment the
best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive, maybe even be
comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair.
Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows. And different guys like different things
at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer out and make people
think????
                                                                        mike.
people.
Bill Cunningham wrote:
I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?Bill C
-----Original Message-----
From: D Miles <deforge1@bright.net>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
 Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...D  "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"
--------------5250F167CC21CB9092B34509-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 09 May 2000 16:27:12 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFB9D3.6E0DCF20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Absolutely! I used to practice going out with just a flinter or a bow = and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool blanket and the clothes on my = back. In a few days you learn that it is very possible to get along with = the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some that aren't - = such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It was on a = couple of these trips that I even came up with the idea of a small tent = I could also use as a pack. Made it and carried it for years. Now age is = creeping up on me and I have had to learn to be a bit more cautious. I = carry a first aid kit and often ride a horse. But speaking of recurves, weren't they around long before the fur = period? Seems to me I saw one in the museum at Betatakin. I know they = existed in Eurasia, but it seems to me that some of the south western = Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't extreme like the horse bows = of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow recurve. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Moore To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 Bill,=20 I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying = artifical sinew. I just feel=20 that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for = building a shelter, making=20 a tripod or any putting together any number of things are sinew, = rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and = seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us = when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. = And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are = well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it = is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me = (and this is only my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and have = authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?=20 Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have = choosen sides in=20 the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you = and your equipment the=20 best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to = survive, maybe even be=20 comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. = But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: = a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of = them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals = them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new = pair.=20 Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like = the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel = bows. And different guys like different things=20 at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer = out and make people=20 think????=20 = mike.=20 people.=20 Bill Cunningham wrote:=20 I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy = brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure = he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was = factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained = was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it = brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, = would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it = might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or = less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so = in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial = sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a = fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) = depended on it?Bill C=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: D Miles =20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com = =20 Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM=20 Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)=20 Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers = out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various = forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list = "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...D "Abair ach = beagan is abair gu math e"=20 DOUBLE EDGE FORGE=20 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements=20 http://www.bright.net/~deforge1=20 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFB9D3.6E0DCF20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Absolutely! I used to practice going = out with=20 just a flinter or a bow and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool = blanket and=20 the clothes on my back. In a few days you learn that it is very possible = to get=20 along with the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some that = aren't -=20 such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It was on a = couple of=20 these trips that I even came up with the idea of a small tent I could = also use=20 as a pack. Made it and carried it for years. Now age is creeping up on = me and I=20 have had to learn to be a bit more cautious. I carry a first aid kit and = often=20 ride a horse.
But speaking = of recurves,=20 weren't they around long before the fur period? Seems to me I saw one in = the=20 museum at Betatakin. I know they existed in Eurasia, but it seems to me = that=20 some of the south western Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't = extreme=20 like the horse bows of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow=20 recurve.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Bill, =
   =20 I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying artifical = sinew.=20 I just feel
that under regular "survival" situations = all I=20 would have to use for building a shelter, making
a tripod or any = putting=20 together any  number of  things are sinew, rawhide, = cordage (of=20 various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and seeing what works = and what=20 doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us when called upon to have = to use=20 it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. And to me, alot of = these=20 items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are well made, durable = items that=20 can be the best you can buy (wheather it is a kind of Moc, or what = is best=20 for sewing stuff up with), but to me (and this is only  my = opinion) why=20 not tie both worlds together and have authenic equipement that is = durable,=20 comfortable and replaceable?
Like alot of you guys, I am a = A.M.M.=20 member. and alot of people have choosen sides in
the authenic/ = survival=20 debate. I just say why not be both? Make you and your equipment the =
best=20 they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive, = maybe even=20 be
comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love = them.=20 But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can = happen: a=20 horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one = of them=20 fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals = them) I=20 would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair. =
Every=20 man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like the = recurve=20 versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows. And = different=20 guys like different things
at different times. But ,doesn't this = make a=20 good subject to hammer out and make people
think????=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20 mike.
people.
Bill Cunningham wrote:=20
I was watching that = antiques roadshow=20 program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It = really=20 looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the = antique guy=20 showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with = artificial=20 sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You = could see=20 the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of = questions. In=20 true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough = sinew to=20 take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since = sinew is=20 typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at = best,=20 would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or = rather,=20 perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely = long?=20 Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if = your life=20 (or in some cases, your budget) depended on = it?Bill C=20 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: D Miles <deforge1@bright.net>=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >=20
Date: Tuesday, = May 09,=20 2000 7:32 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was=20 saws)
 Boy, I=20 am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out there = that sell=20 FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All = high=20 quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list=20 "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO=20 figger...D  "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e"
         =20 DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron = Accoutrements=20
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>=20
  "Knowing = how is just=20 the=20 beginning"
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFB9D3.6E0DCF20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 09 May 2000 18:58:23 -0700 You Go Bro. ! What really chaps me is to see leather clothing, sewn with artificial sinew, with the 3M glue showing around the seams. Where do these guys get off bringing crap like that to a doins ? LP -----Original Message----- Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Hayden Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 17:04:22 -0700 (PDT) --- larry pendleton wrote: > You Go Bro. ! > What really chaps me is to see leather clothing, sewn with artificial > sinew, > with the 3M glue showing around the seams. Where do these guys get > off > bringing crap like that to a doins ? > LP Greetings list. I hope the above comment was tongue in cheek/ a joke. How many of us Really think we are doing it 100% Period Correct? If so answer the following questions. Any fillings in your teeth? have then pulled sans pain killer. Ever taken antibiotics? the infection probably killed you. Any major surgery? Your still losing.... Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple. Tim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 09 May 2000 17:10:21 -0700 I second mikes comments about using heavy linen, waxed instead of artificial sinew. It looks better, works better, and is authentic. Hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 19:48:05 -0700 Tim, No sir ! It was most certainly not tongue in cheek. The kind of trash seen in some trade tents these days is a Disgrace. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Cc: Roger Lahti --- larry pendleton wrote: > You Go Bro. ! > What really chaps me is to see leather clothing, sewn with artificial > sinew, > with the 3M glue showing around the seams. Where do these guys get > off > bringing crap like that to a doins ? > LP Greetings list. I hope the above comment was tongue in cheek/ a joke. How many of us Really think we are doing it 100% Period Correct? If so answer the following questions. Any fillings in your teeth? have then pulled sans pain killer. Ever taken antibiotics? the infection probably killed you. Any major surgery? Your still losing.... Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple. Tim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: saw Date: 09 May 2000 18:34:48 -0600 D Miles wrote: > Hawk, > Please Sir, do not lessen your libation ration on my account.. But for true > atonement, you should send me a portion of that ration...Then true atonement > will be fulfilled and you shall be absolved completely of your transgression > and be allowed in the portion of Heaven reserved for such folks as Glass, > 'Ol Gabe & such fella's that led the way... > D > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html or tie his fingers up with that stuff. Buck ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 20:02:40 -0500 You tell em' Larry! The nerve of those guys! Boy, that jest gets me goin! They think they can use artificial senue and leave that 3m glue showing around the seams, geeeez, whats the world comin to? Man, I can't believe they think they can bring that crap to a doins! Boy that chaps me! (Tim, now thats an example of saying something tongue in cheek. Some of us just like to study history and we don't let the little things bother us) northwoods -----Original Message----- >Tim, >No sir ! It was most certainly not tongue in cheek. The kind of trash seen >in some trade tents these days is a Disgrace. >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: Tim Hayden >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Cc: Roger Lahti >Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 5:04 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis > > > >--- larry pendleton wrote: >> You Go Bro. ! >> What really chaps me is to see leather clothing, sewn with artificial >> sinew, >> with the 3M glue showing around the seams. Where do these guys get >> off >> bringing crap like that to a doins ? >> LP >Greetings list. I hope the above comment was tongue in cheek/ a joke. >How many of us Really think we are doing it 100% Period Correct? >If so answer the following questions. >Any fillings in your teeth? have then pulled sans pain killer. >Ever taken antibiotics? the infection probably killed you. >Any major surgery? Your still losing.... >Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple. >Tim > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com/ > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 21:34:23 -0400 Tim, Larry strike a nerve??? Do it right , strive to improve, or give it up.. My tounge is not in my cheek..D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 21:07:29 -0500 Hey Dennis, who says the guys bringing "leather clothing, sewn with artificial sinew, with the 3M glue showing around the seams" aren't striving to improve? Give me a break. Larrys statement is the kind of remark that used makes me look at a lot of historical reinactors as a bunch of "wannabes" worrying about little things and acting as if there participating in some kind of fashion show. They lose sight of the what real learning and improvement is. You can have it. northwoods -----Original Message----- >Tim, > Larry strike a nerve??? >Do it right , strive to improve, or give it up.. My tounge is not in my >cheek..D > >"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 22:16:49 -0400 Northwoods.. I am not going to get in an argument with you.. BUT, if you are striving to "do it right" there is NO EXCUSE for the nylon sinew, 34M glue, and bright gold chrometans, if you just crack a damned book and do a little research..There arte too many good resources out there for that... Those I tend to target are the fella's that say "well, I can't afford brain, linen & such" Gee, if you are a hunter, that's a by product, if you are not, there are many a folk or meat processer that will give you or sell you a hide or three for damned near nothing/ Go to the grocery, spend $5. for some brains and make your stuff. The ones that continually go year to year with the only object in mind is to it on their slat cahirs at a "anything goes" 'voo, drink until they are obnoxious, say "If they had,m they'd a used it" and bitch about "authenticity nazi's"are the ones I get riled about.. If the shoe fits.... BTW,, Mebby we should get on the ground sometime.... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 21:42:05 -0700 Dennis, You hit the nail on the head. The problem with most of today's " buckskinners " , is they carry more knives than the number of books they have read . I see folks at every doins who are still wearing the same painters pants and lace'em up mocassins that they started out with 10 years ago, and it's not because they can't afford better or can't do better. They just don't care, and the traders who are selling the made in Taiwan junk are, in many cases validating those practices. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Northwoods.. I am not going to get in an argument with you.. BUT, if you are striving to "do it right" there is NO EXCUSE for the nylon sinew, 34M glue, and bright gold chrometans, if you just crack a damned book and do a little research..There arte too many good resources out there for that... Those I tend to target are the fella's that say "well, I can't afford brain, linen & such" Gee, if you are a hunter, that's a by product, if you are not, there are many a folk or meat processer that will give you or sell you a hide or three for damned near nothing/ Go to the grocery, spend $5. for some brains and make your stuff. The ones that continually go year to year with the only object in mind is to it on their slat cahirs at a "anything goes" 'voo, drink until they are obnoxious, say "If they had,m they'd a used it" and bitch about "authenticity nazi's"are the ones I get riled about.. If the shoe fits.... BTW,, Mebby we should get on the ground sometime.... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bobbie Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 20:44:45 -0600 Dennis demanded: >Do it right , strive to improve, or give it up.. My tounge is not in my >cheek..D well, well, well. Here we go again. I've always bypassed these storms, but this time I figure I gotta check this out. OK, Dennis.... There are reasons that I can never be where you are. Since you have been so short-tempered about it, I don't think that I owe you any explanations. So... with me, what you see is what you get. You want me to leave? I sure don't wanna be where I'm not wanted. Bobbie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 21:51:29 -0700 Northwoods, What good is the learning if you don't put it into practice ? To improve in this hobby, or lifestyle, you have to research and then put that knowledge to use, because you don't really know what you've learned till you go to the woods and try it. Then go back, read some more and then try it again and again. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Hey Dennis, who says the guys bringing "leather clothing, sewn with artificial sinew, with the 3M glue showing around the seams" aren't striving to improve? Give me a break. Larrys statement is the kind of remark that used makes me look at a lot of historical reinactors as a bunch of "wannabes" worrying about little things and acting as if there participating in some kind of fashion show. They lose sight of the what real learning and improvement is. You can have it. northwoods -----Original Message----- >Tim, > Larry strike a nerve??? >Do it right , strive to improve, or give it up.. My tounge is not in my >cheek..D > >"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 22:46:25 EDT Are you trying to Improve?? Yes you are. NO PROBLEM!!!!! Till Trails Cross Turtle ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 20:23:29 -0600 Bobbie, Don't let them get to you, Who pushed the "HOT BUTTON"anyway? If I wanted to pick someone appart I could but it only would serve to piss them off. I would wrather spend my time helping them. The word for the day is "Lighten up!". YMOS Ole ---------- >From: Bobbie >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis >Date: Tue, May 9, 2000, 8:44 PM > >Dennis demanded: > >>Do it right , strive to improve, or give it up.. My tounge is not in my >>cheek..D > > well, well, well. Here we go again. I've always bypassed these >storms, but this time I figure I gotta check this out. > > OK, Dennis.... There are reasons that I can never be where you are. >Since you have been so short-tempered about it, I don't think that I owe >you any explanations. So... with me, what you see is what you get. You >want me to leave? I sure don't wanna be where I'm not wanted. > > Bobbie > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jc60714@navix.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 21:59:02 -0500 Washtahay- if'n there are any ladies or children reading this, please just go on to the following message now. At 05:04 PM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >How many of us Really think we are doing it 100% Period Correct? >If so answer the following questions. > Any fillings in your teeth? have then pulled sans pain killer. >Ever taken antibiotics? the infection probably killed you. >Any major surgery? Your still losing.... >Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple. This is bullshit!!! No one is saying we are running around with original bodies and outfits. Some of us are saying that the more authentic to the original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the past--and the more you can learn. I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in teeth from the late Vicotorian era. Major surgery has been done without killing the patient since at least 1000 BC. Most folks who had bones broken managed to get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record. I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times to believe your nonsense. Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it ain't what the docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find inside. LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jc60714@navix.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 21:47:51 -0500 Washtahay- At 09:42 PM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote: > You hit the nail on the head. The problem with most of today's " >buckskinners " , is they carry more knives than the number of books they >have read . I see folks at every doins who are still wearing the same >painters pants and lace'em up mocassins that they started out with 10 years >ago, and it's not because they can't afford better or can't do better. They >just don't care, am I the only one who would like to compare the names in this thread with those who spoke in defense of their mocassins with insoles, or fibreglass canoes? LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 20:38:07 -0600 Gentelmen, There are those that play dress up and they have there place. We have ours,the only opinions that I care about come from this brotherhood. My favorite thing to do is to walk through one of the park and drop camps with something verry period and see who figures it out. Most of the time it's another member of the AMM. Everyone rises to there own level, it's to bad that there are those that look like a pile of escaped chamise from a car wash and spend there time looking through the bottom of a bottle. I would wrather spend time with good folk sharing their knowledge and skill instead of an argument. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "larry pendleton" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis >Date: Tue, May 9, 2000, 10:42 PM > >Dennis, > You hit the nail on the head. The problem with most of today's " >buckskinners " , is they carry more knives than the number of books they >have read . I see folks at every doins who are still wearing the same >painters pants and lace'em up mocassins that they started out with 10 years >ago, and it's not because they can't afford better or can't do better. They >just don't care, and the traders who are selling the made in Taiwan junk >are, in many cases validating those practices. >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: D Miles >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:16 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis > > >Northwoods.. >I am not going to get in an argument with you.. BUT, if you are striving to >"do it right" there is NO EXCUSE for the nylon sinew, 34M glue, and bright >gold chrometans, if you just crack a damned book and do a little >research..There arte too many good resources out there for that... Those I >tend to target are the fella's that say "well, I can't afford brain, linen & >such" Gee, if you are a hunter, that's a by product, if you are not, there >are many a folk or meat processer that will give you or sell you a hide or >three for damned near nothing/ Go to the grocery, spend $5. for some brains >and make your stuff. The ones that continually go year to year with the only >object in mind is to it on their slat cahirs at a "anything goes" 'voo, >drink until they are obnoxious, say "If they had,m they'd a used it" and >bitch about "authenticity nazi's"are the ones I get riled about.. >If the shoe fits.... >BTW,, Mebby we should get on the ground sometime.... >D > > >"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jc60714@navix.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew #1 Date: 09 May 2000 21:55:00 -0500 Washtahay- At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote: >In true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take >care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically >12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or >so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew >which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but > what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it? A single deer will provide enough sinew to make a couple bowstrings, a dozen arrows, a quiver, and a set of mocs--and leave some to spare. If you have a deer, you also have rawhide for heavier jobs. Splicing sinew isn't hard-read Learry Dean Olsen or John MacPherson on string making. LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEXASLAZYB@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 23:37:50 EDT I don't know what to tell you purists. Did any of you guys go to your first 'voo naked and unarmed until you learned what to wear? Do you ride in on unshod horses? I agree that everyone should strive to be authentic but this is supposed to be fun as well as a learning experience. Y'all argue. I'll still do as I wish, Bluelodge ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hail.eris@gte.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 20:46:33 -0700 Agreed. I'll take a page from the SCA on this one. They re-enact the Middle Ages, but they also make a point of not re-enacting Bubonic Plague. Try to get it right. At least make an effort, and we'll pretend not to notice the cooler under that blanket..... > I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in teeth from the > late Vicotorian era. Major surgery has been done without killing the > patient since at least 1000 BC. Most folks who had bones broken managed to > get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record. Kristopher K. Barrett ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 09 May 2000 21:47:34 -0600 Authentic/survival? Why not let both complement each other? =20 On Wednesday, June 28, 1939, Mike Moore wrote: > Bill, >=A0=A0=A0 I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying = artifical sinew. I just feel >that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to >use for building a shelter, making >a tripod or any putting together any=A0 number of=A0 things are >sinew, rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by >trying these and seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't >that be the best for us when called upon to have to use it? I >hear alot about "survival" gear. And to me, alot of these items >just don't fit in the catagory. Most are well made, durable >items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it is a kind >of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me >(and this is only=A0 my opinion) why not tie both worlds together >and have authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?= >Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have = choosen sides in >the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you and = your equipment the >best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive, = maybe even be >comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love >them. But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains >(it can happen: a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile >or too, you loose one of them fording a river or maybe a hungry >coyote comes in camp and steals them) I would have to use >leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair. >Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of >like the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new >fangled wheel bows. And different guys like different things >at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer out = and make people >think???? >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 mike. >people. >Bill Cunningham wrote: >I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a >guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice >and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy >showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with >artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern >product. You could see the guy just wither. But it brought to >mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would >you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it >might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" >long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you >carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, >perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely >long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but >what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?Bill C >-----Original Message----- >From: D Miles > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> >Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) >=A0Boy, I am on a roll now...=A0I also see way to many sutlers out >there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in >various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot >of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade >lists.....GO figger...D=A0=A0"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >=A0 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements >=A0=A0 http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 >=A0 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 23:28:15 -0500 Date: 09 May 2000 22:28:28 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0105_01BFBA0E.3FD511A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, this has been very interesting. If I had not worked a 19 hour = day, including a 660 mile round trip drive to Houston, I might throw in = my 2 cents worth. But I am going to bed where I hope I don't dream = about braziers, nutmeg graters, glue or Democrats. (I didn't see any = discussion about Democrats, but I NEVER want to dream about them.) YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_0105_01BFBA0E.3FD511A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Folks, this has been very interesting.  If I = had not=20 worked a 19 hour day, including a 660 mile round trip drive to Houston, = I might=20 throw in my 2 cents worth.  But I am going to bed where I hope I = don't=20 dream about braziers, nutmeg graters, glue or Democrats.  (I didn't = see any=20 discussion about Democrats, but I NEVER want to dream about = them.)
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
------=_NextPart_000_0105_01BFBA0E.3FD511A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jc60714@navix.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 09 May 2000 23:25:57 -0500 Geez. . . Brass-tack a swastika on the side of one rifle and they never forget it. At 11:37 PM 5/9/00 EDT, you wrote: >I don't know what to tell you purists. Did any of you guys go to your first >'voo naked and unarmed until you learned what to wear? Do you ride in on >unshod horses? For what I did long before I went to my first rendezvous, see . LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 00:34:23 -0700 > or tie his fingers up with that stuff. > > Buck > sure be worse than one of those chinese finger cuff things and I aint letting the better half read this she might get a idea or two of what she could tie up and it aint my fingers---NUFF SAID but speaking of making cordage---was down at singing rivers a few weeks ago and a lady had a thing made out of wood---called it a lussette (SP) tool and i watched her play with it then looked at the cordage---the darn thing makes square cordage out of one thread---darndedt thing i ever saw---so I set down with a piece of charcole and scratched out a pattern---the darn thing really works---works excelent on cotton and flax threads and can be operated even with crocette threads ---sure makes a strong piece out of something that will break from the slightest toug--- as I would say its a wonderment---just a pure wonderment---and I figured out how to start it and make it work---wish there was a like tool to make round cordage and weave it the same way--- anyone know if there is a tool like the Lussette (SP) tool that will brade round cordage--- YMHOSANT HAWK Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 10 May 2000 01:24:29 -0700 ole--- well put---remember this is a brotherhood here to help each other---NUFF SAID---CUT the BS---I have been slapped by the period pirots before and then went back with my documentation and proved them wrong---done my homework and was 5% smarter---lets get off of this subject all of us know its a tender one---we aint judgeing brothers---if a brother done wrong he is told politely and on a one to one basis---each has helped in that scenario before---I have even went and loaned stuff to a guy to help him be period correct if i could help him--- lets shake hands and close this one out guys--- YMHOSANT =+= HAWK Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 10 May 2000 02:13:18 EDT Reading all these debates about authenticity reminds me of the delightful "Confederates in the Attic" by Tony Horwitz. The book chronicles his adventures while visiting various battlefields, and his involvement with rabid Civil War reinactors. These people were so determined to be authentic, that they actually became competitive over portrayals of "best bloated battlefield corpse" . Hmm. How could anyone NOT be for authenticity, accuracy and knowledge? But at the end of the day, it's good to know I don't have to bag a possum for my dinner. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Goose Bay Workshops Date: 09 May 2000 23:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Hallo... Just a note to let folks know that Goose Bay's website has moved to: http://www.goosebayworkshops.com Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 10 May 2000 03:22:36 -0500 --=====================_61169712==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bill, I see this differently. Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long? Nice if you can get it but 6" works. Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and fletchings. Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long lengths? If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone. For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage. In todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so much we find is different. Field expedient drop spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- those born to the period. Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely than any nylon fastening. How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of easily replaced sinew pieces? Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items. At best artificial sinew is a convenience. It is not demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is used. It offers no particular survival advantage other than convenience. I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it. I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years now. Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I put it away last. I use linen for convenience. I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand twist. For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home. If I need a heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in lengths suitable to the work. You can buy the thread in varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool. I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking). Wax it as you work. If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it. Sewing is slower if the thread is too long. 36" of thread is only needed when doing a full saddle stitch. For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled. I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one ball last for years. I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things it can do linen and nylon cannot,. A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your thread. A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. A spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need to make a lot of thread. At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier cordage from the beginning. Braiding is another cordage skill. Spun materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work. Cordage is critical to survival. From thread to rope the skills acquired are complimentary and equally necessary. A set of skills nearly as important as fire. Cordage can ease making fire if all you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill. The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. Using it risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain. It is about being absolutely certain. John... Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter. At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote: >I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought >in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had a >pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned >leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech >modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind >a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to >obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need >it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is >tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or >rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely >long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your >life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it? >Bill C Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer --=====================_61169712==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Bill,

I see this differently.

Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long?  Nice if you can get it but 6" works.

Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and fletchings.

Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long lengths?  If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone.

For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so much we find is different.  Field expedient drop spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- those born to the period.

Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely than any nylon fastening. 

How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of easily replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items.

At best artificial sinew is a convenience.  It is not demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is used.  It offers no particular survival advantage other than convenience.  

I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it.  I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I put it away last.

I use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I need a heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy the thread in varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool.  I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking).  Wax it as you work. 

If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it.  Sewing is slower if the thread is too long.  36" of thread is only needed when doing a full saddle stitch.  For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled.

I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one ball last for years.  I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things it can do linen and nylon cannot,. 

A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need to make a lot of thread.

At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier cordage from the beginning.  Braiding is another cordage skill.  Spun materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work.

Cordage is critical to survival.  From thread to rope the skills acquired are complimentary and equally necessary.   A set of skills nearly as important as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill.

The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain.  It is about being absolutely certain.

John...

Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter.



At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:
I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?
Bill C


Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <kramer@kramerize.com> --=====================_61169712==_.ALT-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 07:40:45 -0400 Hawk, Is that "Lucette" thing look like a thick slingshot, sorta? I think I have seen those in a catalog somewhere, in with the spinning supplies.. I will have to look before I go out to the shop.. Cordage, eh? That IS a pure wonderment....And square to booot.. Would be fun to bring that square stuff to a doins and show the Brothers somthing queersome.. D PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good, when I am a mind to.. And the invitation still goes, I would like to get on the ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton) D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 10 May 2000 08:01:44 -0400 BLUELODGE WROTE: . Did any of you guys go to your first 'voo naked and unarmed until you learned what to wear? Sorry guys, but I ain't turnin' loose of this one so easy... Mainly cause it touches raw nerves (my favorite thing) As a matter of fact Bluelodge, my wife and I started with chrome tans, artificial sinew, enough fookin camp eqipment to melt down and recast into a damned tank and all the trappings of the "typical" skinner. Hell, we were married "buckskinner style" Me, elk warshirt and pants (bright chrometan, nylon sewn) Gwen had a white antelope dress, also sewn with nylon and all the "reservation" bangles and baubles.. And we did this for several years... And then I started doing some research and things started getting replaced & pared down..(read: IMPROVE) and our "kits" got better & better.. Then I met the fella that sponsered me into the AMM, then it REALLY fell into place. Gwen & I are constantly improving our gear, clothing &ct. It doesn't set in a damned trailer between doins.. We both spend an enormous amount of time wandering the woods, mts and lakes. SO what we use, works. And what we carry into a doins (not much) is what we carry when we are 20 miles from the nearest 2 legged critter. What you see is what you get./ And in hindsight, I sure as hell wish someone would have slapped me upside the head all those years ago and said, "If you're gonna do this, do it right, from the start" It sure as hell would have save us a damned ton of money and frustration as we found out that something wasn't right, and had to be gotten rid of or replaced.. Lost a lot of $$$ getting rid of stuff. The amount I could have saved by doing it right the first time probably would have paid for a brace of matching L&R Caywood smoothie pistols. So maybe thru all the whining, bitching, and crying "NAZI" of those too damned lazy or stupid to try to improve their gear, some new fella will take stock and the "light" will go on. Then, I will have done for someone something that I wished would have happened to me along time ago. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:37 PM > I don't know what to tell you puristsDo you ride in on > unshod horses? I agree that everyone should strive to be authentic but this > is supposed to be fun as well as a learning experience. > > Y'all argue. I'll still do as I wish, > Bluelodge > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: Lucet Date: 10 May 2000 08:37:32 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_013B_01BFBA5A.FC06F2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hawk, Found a lucet on the web. I typed "lucet" into Dogpile and came up with = a boatload of examples, instructions and references... Neat toy!!!! D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_013B_01BFBA5A.FC06F2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hawk,
 Found a lucet on the web. I typed = "lucet"=20 into Dogpile and came up with a boatload of examples, instructions and=20 references... Neat toy!!!!
D
 
 
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e"
          DOUBLE EDGE = FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   = http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 =20 "Knowing how is just the beginning"
------=_NextPart_000_013B_01BFBA5A.FC06F2C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 10 May 2000 07:19:47 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BFBA50.1F692E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping it. = Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I = think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've = never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the = fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you = have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new = cordage tool? Bill -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 Bill, =20 I see this differently. =20 Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long? Nice = if you can get it but 6" works. =20 Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; & = sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and = fletchings. =20 Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in long = lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long = lengths? If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone. =20 For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many = other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, = vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage. In todays = mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or = twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you = find, so much we find is different. Field expedient drop spindles can = be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- = those born to the period. =20 Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more = securely than any nylon fastening. =20 =20 How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of = easily replaced sinew pieces? Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, = bone and fat; other handy survival items. =20 At best artificial sinew is a convenience. It is not demonstrably = superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is used. It offers = no particular survival advantage other than convenience. =20 =20 I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it. I = haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in = better than 15 years now. Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it = when I put it away last. =20 I use linen for convenience. I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand = twist. For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the = thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home. If I need a heavy = thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in = lengths suitable to the work. You can buy the thread in varying numbers = of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool. I find it = easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking). Wax it as = you work. =20 =20 If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it. Sewing is slower if the = thread is too long. 36" of thread is only needed when doing a full = saddle stitch. For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in = shorter lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress = with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled. =20 I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in = my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one ball = last for years. I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things it = can do linen and nylon cannot,. =20 =20 A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your = thread. A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. A spinning wheel = is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need to = make a lot of thread. =20 At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any other = spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier cordage from = the beginning. Braiding is another cordage skill. Spun materials can = be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work. =20 Cordage is critical to survival. From thread to rope the skills = acquired are complimentary and equally necessary. A set of skills = nearly as important as fire. Cordage can ease making fire if all you = have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill. =20 The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. Using it risks = not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain. It is = about being absolutely certain. =20 John... =20 Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones = about 4" long and 3" in diameter. =20 =20 =20 At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote: =20 I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy = brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure = he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was = factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained = was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it = brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, = would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it = might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or = less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so = in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial = sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a = fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) = depended on it? Bill C =20 =20 =20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BFBA50.1F692E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wow! Thanks for the information! I = am printing=20 this and keeping it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called = (as=20 kids) and I think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this = is, I've=20 never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the = fishermen on=20 the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you have really = worked this=20 stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new cordage tool?
Bill
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
T= o:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Bill,

I=20 see this differently.

Why would you ever need a strand of = sinew much=20 over 12" long?  Nice if you can get it but 6"=20 works.

Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is = readily=20 done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, = points and=20 fletchings.

Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial = sinew) is=20 handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use = it in=20 long lengths?  If you don't heat weld the knots, they come=20 undone.

For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of = such --=20 many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, = intestines,=20 vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In = todays=20 mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire = &/or=20 twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you = find,=20 so much we find is different.  Field expedient drop spindles = can be=20 readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- = those=20 born to the period.

Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize = tighter=20 and bind more securely than any nylon fastening. 

How = does a=20 coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of easily = replaced=20 sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, bone and = fat;=20 other handy survival items.

At best artificial sinew is a=20 convenience.  It is not demonstrably superior to real sinew for = the=20 purposes for which it is used.  It offers no particular = survival=20 advantage other than convenience.  

I've used it = but,=20 could never find a real justification for it.  I haven't been = able to=20 find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 = years=20 now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I put it = away=20 last.

I use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of = unwaxed 4=20 strand twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads = and=20 re-spin the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  = If I need=20 a heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is = appropriate=20 in lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy the thread in = varying=20 numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each = spool.  I find=20 it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in = reworking).  Wax=20 it as you work. 

If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make=20 it.  Sewing is slower if the thread is too long.  36" = of=20 thread is only needed when doing a full saddle stitch.  For all = other=20 sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter lengths.  Use a = second=20 thread if needed, the work will progress with greater ease when the = thread=20 isn't getting constantly tangled.

I have a prepared ball of = heavily=20 waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've = needed=20 on the trail has made the one ball last for years.  I have a = small wad=20 of sinew as well for the things it can do linen and nylon = cannot,. =20

A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to = spin your=20 thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A = spinning=20 wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really = need to=20 make a lot of thread.

At some point it is instructive to = acquire some=20 flax (or any other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread = and=20 heavier cordage from the beginning.  Braiding is another = cordage=20 skill.  Spun materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best = suits the=20 work.

Cordage is critical to survival.  From thread to = rope the=20 skills acquired are complimentary and equally necessary.   = A set=20 of skills nearly as important as fire.  Cordage can ease making = fire if=20 all you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand=20 drill.

The convenience of artificial sinew is = seductive.  Using=20 it risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be = certain. =20 It is about being absolutely certain.

John...

Note: = the spools=20 of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about 4" = long and=20 3" in diameter.



At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you=20 wrote:
I was watching that = antiques=20 roadshow program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow = quiver.=20 It really looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But = the=20 antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed = with=20 artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern = product. You=20 could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple = of=20 questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to = obtain=20 enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd = need it=20 for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and = splicing it is=20 tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles = pouch,=20 or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is = infinitely=20 long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what = if your=20 life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?
Bill C


Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John = Kramer =20 <kramer@kramerize.com> ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BFBA50.1F692E00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: WNS 2001 Date: 10 May 2000 06:56:15 -0700 (MST) FYI Well we got dates, new name, etc. Start Planning for 2001 Book Mark!!!!!! http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1087119 NMLRA Western National Shoot.. Shot Gunning Events Returning to Ben Avery Tell your friends... -- A.K.A. Penny Pincher ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Susan Gilbert" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Lucet cordage and round cord Date: 10 May 2000 09:23:19 -0500 (CDT) On Wed, 10 May 2000 00:34:23 -0700, hawknest4@juno.com wrote: >as I would say its a wonderment---just a pure wonderment---and I figured >out how to start it and make it work---wish there was a like tool to make >round cordage and weave it the same way--- > >anyone know if there is a tool like the Lussette (SP) tool that will >brade round cordage--- Lucets have been around since Renaissance times. It is one of the period "needlecrafts" I demonstrate at Voos and living history events. The cordage can be made as thin as sewing thread for chemise drawstrings or thick as ship cable using hemp. I even made a halter for a horse using thin strips of left over brain tan. There IS a gizmo that makes a round cord, rather like a lucet. It is called a "corker". It looks like an oversized spool made out of hard wood with 4 wooden pegs in the top. You make a "knitted" cord by wrapping and looping the thread over the pegs. My research has found them in Colonial American womens craft supplies. I bet many of you saw a homemade version as a kid. When I was in Girl Scouts we made "knitting spools" out of old wooden thread spools and finishing nails. Both lucets and corkers can be made in differing sizes and that effects the thickness of the cordage you make. I have lucets less than 3 inches tall that make very fine drawstrings using silk thread. The one I demo with is about 9 inch tall and uses crochet weight cotton or wool. Both are relatively easy to make, I bought my first lucet 25 years ago and have made all the ones since. The corker is also possible to make yourself with a drill press and a pocket knife for a solid wood one or wood and metal if you use a spool and nails. Any one interested in finding out more info can get ahold of me by e-mail, so I don't clutter up the list. Sue Gilbert 6 Beaver Camp sgilbert@avalon.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lucet Date: 10 May 2000 10:08:07 -0700 d> drop me a note offline and let me know what the websites are that you found---I dont have ready access to the internet so must have the addres then go to a machine that lets me get on the web HAWK Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage Date: 10 May 2000 09:45:45 -0700 D yepper the thing looks like a slingshot with pointed tips on it---they need to be made from hardwood that is pretty close grain---easy to start when you do it a couple of times and it brades---real tight square cordage---it also has a hole in the vee of the tool for the cordage that you made to go thru---its a pure wonderment how it works and you can sit around and tlk amd make the cordage---makes it so easy that you dont have to even think just pull your stitches---and it adds a lot of agility to your fingers and keeps your mind occupied---a good theoripy tool for someone that can't do much of anything else---could make some hellatious cordage out of gut if it was prepared right and would also make a exceptionally strong bow string---remings me of when we usto make the square brade bracelets when i was a kid-except tighter weave--i need to find out how to properly spell the name of this tool---also have a wooden rope twister that i play with---get the hemp binder twine and it makes darn good ropes for use around camp---been playing with that kind of junk the last couple of months-- saw a cast iron rope twister a couple of years ago and decided you could duplicate it out of wood---easy as hell to make and would truly be period correct in making period rope---just need 3 hooks to hold the cordage thay you are twisting---I use commercial screw eyes and they work great---you can add one strand of colored cotton thread to the hemp to make your rope distinktive from someone-elses if you want---I saw the original one in smithsonian and it was dated in the 1700 time range but as a field expedient you can make it out of wood instead of metal if you didnt want to make hundreds of feet of twisted cordage---with the roap twister you can add as many strands as long as you do it in threes--3 's fun to play with---am in the process of trying to figure out how to make twisted cordage from a odd number of lines like 5 and see how that will work---three or multipals of three is all I have done well with so far---- maby one of the ladies on the list can give us some more info on the luzzette thing ---can you brade more than just the square stuff would like to be able to brade round rope but havent figured that out yet---am sure there must be a simple tool that you could do that with also---the same tool may work just may have to thread it different--- angelia ---you got any info on this------again just having fun and keeping my hands busy while sitteing around---seems i always have to be busy--- YMHOSANT HAWK Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce On Wed, 10 May 2000 07:40:45 -0400 "D Miles" writes: > Hawk, > Is that "Lucette" thing look like a thick slingshot, sorta? I think > I have > seen those in a catalog somewhere, in with the spinning supplies.. > I will have to look before I go out to the shop.. Cordage, eh? That > IS a > pure wonderment....And square to booot.. Would be fun to bring that > square > stuff to a doins and show the Brothers somthing queersome.. > D > > PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good, > when I > am a mind to.. And the invitation still goes, I would like to > get on the > ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton) > D ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses. Date: 10 May 2000 07:32:41 PDT Bluelodge, Seems to me there are many accounts of horseshoes, and the equipment needed to set them, going to the Rockies. So much for un-shod horses. Funny thing about research, it made me quit using artificial sinew, but I get to shoe my mules. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 10:34:28 EDT deforge1@bright.net writes: > Is that "Lucette" thing look like a thick slingshot, sorta? I think I have > seen those in a catalog somewhere, in with the spinning supplies.. They are carried by Smoke and Fire: http://www.smoke-fire.com. Now that you guys have been talking about them, I got mine out, but can't remember how to make it work. Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage Date: 10 May 2000 10:48:32 EDT hawknest4@juno.com writes: > saw a cast iron rope twister a couple of years ago and decided you could > duplicate it out of wood>> Hawk, I remember we had something like this at boy scout camporees about 40 years ago. We would make rope out of binder twine. Can't remember all the details though. I think that a number of us would be interested in how you made yours and how it works. Thanks. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 10 May 2000 09:04:57 -0600 Michael, Thanks! there are many things that interest me and I follow my own mind. I hope that I know the diference between an AMM camp and a park and drop. I will take diferent things to these camps and it is no reflection on the AMM. I have seen AMM brothers get so totaly wasted at camp that they pass out in the dirt and that is no reflection on the orginization just a brother with a problem. However when I represent the AMM and the things we value I strive to hold my self to the highest standards but I do it to teach and to be an example to those who wish to learn and always try to remember that I am no better then they are just down the trail a litle further. YMOS Ole ---------- >From: hawknest4@juno.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis >Date: Wed, May 10, 2000, 2:24 AM > >ole--- >well put---remember this is a brotherhood here to help each other---NUFF >SAID---CUT the BS---I have been slapped by the period pirots before and >then went back with my documentation and proved them wrong---done my >homework and was 5% smarter---lets get off of this subject all of us know >its a tender one---we aint judgeing brothers---if a brother done wrong he >is told politely and on a one to one basis---each has helped in that >scenario before---I have even went and loaned stuff to a guy to help him >be period correct if i could help him--- > >lets shake hands and close this one out guys--- > >YMHOSANT > =+= >HAWK >Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) >854 Glenfield Dr. >Palm Harbor florida 34684 >E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: >http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 10 May 2000 08:38:12 -0700 All these "repairs" you mentioned are ones that would be made in the "settlements". By today's or yesterday's standards, the settlements would use the current practice of their day. But outside of the settlements, in the wild, (no cell phone or medivac, now), we're looking at pulling teeth(if you can't wait), going without antibiotics(found herbs and animal grease), setting bones as best "field repairs" will allow, and dying if you need major surgery. Without trained medical personnel or modern chemical laboratories, the man alone has only what's available in nature and the wisdom of his own experience. Those who have the knowledge to use those assets may survive to reach the settlements and additional assets. Natural selection will take care of the rest. ----- Original Message ----- Cc: Roger Lahti Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 5:04 PM > > --- larry pendleton wrote: > > You Go Bro. ! > > What really chaps me is to see leather clothing, sewn with artificial > > sinew, > > with the 3M glue showing around the seams. Where do these guys get > > off > > bringing crap like that to a doins ? > > LP > Greetings list. I hope the above comment was tongue in cheek/ a joke. > How many of us Really think we are doing it 100% Period Correct? > If so answer the following questions. > Any fillings in your teeth? have then pulled sans pain killer. > Ever taken antibiotics? the infection probably killed you. > Any major surgery? Your still losing.... > Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple. > Tim > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 11:57:27 -0400 Dennis, that paddle is used to propel your canoe, not stir up s--t. To those who don`t know Dennis, his camp is just as he talks, extremely correct. He has what it takes to make a comfortable camp for his wife and himself. You must remember everyone's level of comfort is different. Dennis also has the skills, ability, and knowledge to make do with whats at hand. > > PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good, when I > am a mind to.. And the invitation still goes, I would like to get on the > ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton) > D > > > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage Date: 10 May 2000 09:57:31 -0700 Hawk, Not an expert on cordage by any means but I assure you that you can make you're rope twister idea work with any number of strands up to the point it is just not practical anymore. They work on the same principle as does rolling cordage on your thigh, which is easiest to do with two strands but can be done with three or more if you can control them. A buddy of mine in Albany has made quit a bit of nice rope using a rope twister ( rope walk in olden days) and I have made one from Cloths hanger wire and some flat wood. Made up a nice length of "cod" line a couple years ago for a trotline from the linen thread John Kramer was talking about. Made up in multiple strands it is quit strong and would make a fine bow string too I'm sure. Fine little article there JOHN, and one that I will keep and pass on to my Brothers if I may. I remain..... Your friend and, YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp doings Date: 10 May 2000 11:00:32 -0600 Hello around the campfire, Hi everybody. Looks like lots of good conversations going on. I have been busy putting together the Clark Bottom Rendezvous for this year. This is a Quiet Camp. Our dates for this year fall on the actual dates Captain Clark was here in camp on the Yellowstone River in what is now called Montana. CBR operates from July 19-24, 2000. I have only 25 camp permits left. They are $25. From CBR you can go directly to the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous which is going full bore again this year. The date for the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous is July 28 - Aug 6, 2000. The ML range is open and they have added archery to their current events. You can get more information about the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous by contacting bearcave@prodigy.net according to the information they sent me. With this reintroduction I am glad to be back among like minded folks and hope to pick up on the threads as they go by. I have been following along seeing items of interest that are rolling around the campfire and think I will join in again in the over all conversations going around. Here is to you and your from me and mine. And a shout and from the mountains I see shinning nearby. Top of the world to you all. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 10 May 2000 11:02:42 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFBA6F.43408020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Cunningham=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 4:27 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Absolutely! I used to practice going out with just a flinter or a bow = and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool blanket and the clothes on my = back. In a few days you learn that it is very possible to get along with = the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some that aren't - = such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It was on a = couple of these trips that I even came up with the idea of a small tent = I could also use as a pack. Made it and carried it for years. Now age is = creeping up on me and I have had to learn to be a bit more cautious. I = carry a first aid kit and often ride a horse. But speaking of recurves, weren't they around long before the fur = period? Seems to me I saw one in the museum at Betatakin. I know they = existed in Eurasia, but it seems to me that some of the south western = Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't extreme like the horse bows = of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow recurve. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Moore To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Bill,=20 I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying = artifical sinew. I just feel=20 that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for = building a shelter, making=20 a tripod or any putting together any number of things are sinew, = rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and = seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us = when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. = And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are = well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it = is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me = (and this is only my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and have = authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?=20 Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have = choosen sides in=20 the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you = and your equipment the=20 best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to = survive, maybe even be=20 comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. = But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: = a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of = them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals = them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new = pair.=20 Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like = the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel = bows. And different guys like different things=20 at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer = out and make people=20 think????=20 = mike.=20 people.=20 Bill Cunningham wrote:=20 I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy = brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure = he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was = factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained = was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it = brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, = would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it = might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or = less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so = in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial = sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a = fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) = depended on it?Bill C=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: D Miles =20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =20 Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM=20 Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)=20 Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out = there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various = forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list = "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...D "Abair ach = beagan is abair gu math e"=20 DOUBLE EDGE FORGE=20 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements=20 http://www.bright.net/~deforge1=20 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFBA6F.43408020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Cunningham
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 = 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Artificial Sinew=20 (was saws)

Absolutely! I used to practice = going out with=20 just a flinter or a bow and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool = blanket and=20 the clothes on my back. In a few days you learn that it is very = possible to=20 get along with the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some = that=20 aren't - such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It = was on a=20 couple of these trips that I even came up with the idea of a small = tent I=20 could also use as a pack. Made it and carried it for years. Now age is = creeping up on me and I have had to learn to be a bit more cautious. I = carry a=20 first aid kit and often ride a horse.
But speaking = of recurves,=20 weren't they around long before the fur period? Seems to me I saw one = in the=20 museum at Betatakin. I know they existed in Eurasia, but it seems to = me that=20 some of the south western Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't = extreme=20 like the horse bows of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow=20 recurve.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Bill, =
   =20 I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying artifical = sinew.=20 I just feel
that under regular "survival" situations all I would = have to=20 use for building a shelter, making
a tripod or any putting = together=20 any  number of  things are sinew, rawhide, cordage (of = various=20 kinds) or leather. So by trying these and seeing what works and what = doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us when called upon to have = to use=20 it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. And to me, alot of these = items just=20 don't fit in the catagory. Most are well made, durable items that = can be the=20 best you can buy (wheather it is a kind of Moc, or what is best for = sewing=20 stuff up with), but to me (and this is only  my opinion) why = not tie=20 both worlds together and have authenic equipement that is durable,=20 comfortable and replaceable?
Like alot of you guys, I am a = A.M.M.=20 member. and alot of people have choosen sides in
the authenic/ = survival=20 debate. I just say why not be both? Make you and your equipment the =
best=20 they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive, = maybe even=20 be
comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love = them.=20 But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can = happen: a=20 horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one = of them=20 fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals = them) I=20 would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair. =
Every=20 man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like the = recurve=20 versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows. And = different=20 guys like different things
at different times. But ,doesn't this = make a=20 good subject to hammer out and make people
think????=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20 mike.
people.
Bill Cunningham wrote:=20
I was watching that antiques = roadshow=20 program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It = really=20 looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique = guy=20 showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with = artificial=20 sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could = see the=20 guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In = true=20 survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to = take care=20 of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is = typically=20 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you = carry 15=20 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small = coil of=20 artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity = is=20 great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, = your=20 budget) depended on it?Bill C = -----Original = Message-----=20
From: D Miles = <deforge1@bright.net>=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >=20
Date: Tuesday, May = 09, 2000=20 7:32 AM
Subject:=20 MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)=20
 Boy, I am on a roll = now... I = also see way=20 to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, = documented=20 items in various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, = allot=20 of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO = figger...D  "Abair=20 ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          = DOUBLE=20 EDGE FORGE
 =20 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>=20
  "Knowing how is = just the=20 = beginning"
------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BFBA6F.43408020-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 10 May 2000 11:18:03 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BFBA71.68A9EA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill,=20 Recurves predate the fur period all across north america. Jim Bridger = packed 2 arrowheads for a while. Mountain men faced bows and arrows on = a regular basis. I have seen scattered documentation regarding some use = by mountain men. But there were so many mountain men out here and so = little recorded history about them. I see archery appearing again and = again on different theads. I think this is a segment of mountain man = history where it was made. From the MLML list I can see that I could = compete against ML in a mountain man situation on equal footing with the = bows and arrows I make then and now. Maybe this subject will come up on = a thread. I have been enjoying your posts. I am glad to see a good = hand like you on the list, camped around this fire. Walt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Cunningham=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 4:27 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) But speaking of recurves, weren't they around long before the fur = period? Seems to me I saw one in the museum at Betatakin. I know they = existed in Eurasia, but it seems to me that some of the south western = Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't extreme like the horse bows = of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow recurve. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Moore To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Bill,=20 I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying = artifical sinew. I just feel=20 that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use = for building a shelter, making=20 a tripod or any putting together any number of things are sinew, = rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and = seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us = when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. = And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are = well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it = is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me = (and this is only my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and have = authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?=20 Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people = have choosen sides in=20 the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make = you and your equipment the=20 best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to = survive, maybe even be=20 comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. = But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: = a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of = them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals = them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new = pair.=20 Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of = like the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled = wheel bows. And different guys like different things=20 at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to = hammer out and make people=20 think????=20 = mike.=20 people.=20 Bill Cunningham wrote:=20 I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy = brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure = he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was = factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained = was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it = brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, = would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it = might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or = less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so = in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial = sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a = fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) = depended on it?Bill C=20 -----Original Message-----=20 From: D Miles =20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com = =20 Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM=20 Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)=20 Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out = there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various = forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list = "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...D "Abair ach = beagan is abair gu math e"=20 DOUBLE EDGE FORGE=20 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements=20 http://www.bright.net/~deforge1=20 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BFBA71.68A9EA20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bill,
Recurves predate the fur period all = across north=20 america.  Jim Bridger packed 2 arrowheads for a while.  = Mountain men=20 faced bows and arrows on a regular basis.  I have seen scattered=20 documentation regarding some use by mountain men.  But there were = so many=20 mountain men out here and so little recorded history about them.  = I see=20 archery appearing again and again on different theads.  I think = this is a=20 segment of mountain man history where it was made.  From the MLML = list I=20 can see that I could compete against ML in a mountain man situation on = equal=20 footing with the bows and arrows I make then and now.  Maybe this = subject=20 will come up on a thread.  I have been enjoying your posts.  = I am=20 glad to see a good hand like you on the list, camped around this=20 fire.
Walt
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Cunningham
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 = 4:27=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Artificial=20 Sinew (was saws)

But = speaking of=20 recurves, weren't they around long before the fur period? Seems to = me I saw=20 one in the museum at Betatakin. I know they existed in Eurasia, but = it seems=20 to me that some of the south western Indians had them also. The one = I saw=20 wasn't extreme like the horse bows of the Steppes, but was = definitely a=20 self-bow recurve.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Bill,=20
    I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) = justify=20 carrying artifical sinew. I just feel
that under regular = "survival"=20 situations all I would have to use for building a shelter, making =
a=20 tripod or any putting together any  number of  things = are sinew,=20 rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these = and=20 seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for = us when=20 called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. = And to=20 me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are = well=20 made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it = is a=20 kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me = (and=20 this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together = and have=20 authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable? =
Like=20 alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have = choosen=20 sides in
the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be = both?=20 Make you and your equipment the
best they can be. And know how = to do=20 the things necessary to survive, maybe even be
comfortable. I = have=20 friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. But if I ever had = to=20 replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: a horse or = mule=20 scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of them = fording a=20 river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals them) I = would have=20 to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair.
Every = man has=20 their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like the recurve = versus=20 stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows. And = different guys=20 like different things
at different times. But ,doesn't this = make a=20 good subject to hammer out and make people
think????=20 =
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;          =20 mike.
people.
Bill Cunningham wrote:=20
I was watching that = antiques roadshow=20 program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It = really=20 looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the = antique guy=20 showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with = artificial=20 sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You = could see=20 the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of = questions. In=20 true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough = sinew to=20 take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since = sinew is=20 typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, = would you=20 carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, = a small=20 coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical=20 authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or = in some=20 cases, your budget) depended on it?Bill=20 C=20 -----Original = Message-----=20
From: D Miles = <deforge1@bright.net>=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >=20
Date: Tuesday, = May 09, 2000=20 7:32 AM
Subject:=20 MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)=20
 Boy, I am on a = roll=20 now... I = also see=20 way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic,=20 documented items in various forms.All high quality.... But for = some=20 reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their = trade=20 lists.....GO figger...D  "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" =
          DOUBLE=20 EDGE FORGE
 =20 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>=20
  "Knowing how is = just the=20 = beginning"
------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BFBA71.68A9EA20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: cordage Date: 10 May 2000 11:28:04 -0600 Hello Hawknest, I don't think the square cordage you are talking about would make a very good bowstring. To much stretch. The old back twist method is much better. I know it works because I have been using it without out a problem. The bowstring is critical. I am going to a shoot this weekend to the old range I have been a member of off and on since 1953. I have been invited to show some of these young bucks how to go about converting cordage into a suitable bowstring, not to shoot. VBG. Make up a short section and see how much stretch there is in it. That will give you a good anwser. Beautiful weather here in the birthplace of the mountain men. See you in Montana Walt in his badgerhole. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 11:33:13 -0600 Hello John, So what does D. camp look like? Walt ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:57 AM > Dennis, that paddle is used to propel your canoe, not stir up s--t. > > To those who don`t know Dennis, his camp is just as he talks, extremely > correct. He has what it takes to make a comfortable camp for his wife and > himself. You must remember everyone's level of comfort is different. > > Dennis also has the skills, ability, and knowledge to make do with whats at > hand. > > > > > > PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good, when > I > > am a mind to.. And the invitation still goes, I would like to get on > the > > ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton) > > D > > > > > > > > > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 14:35:17 -0400 Walt Wrote: > So what does D. camp look like? Walt, Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available. And nada when it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a canteen usually. My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by myself, with Gwen, in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned where. What did you have in mind? Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 10 May 2000 11:36:41 -0700 Ole, Wise words from a wise man. My sympathies exactly. I remain.... As always YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:04 AM > Michael, > Thanks! > there are many things that interest me and I follow my own mind. I hope that > I know the diference between an AMM camp and a park and drop. I will take > diferent things to these camps and it is no reflection on the AMM. I have > seen AMM brothers get so totaly wasted at camp that they pass out in the > dirt and that is no reflection on the orginization just a brother with a > problem. However when I represent the AMM and the things we value I strive > to hold my self to the highest standards but I do it to teach and to be an > example to those who wish to learn and always try to remember that I am no > better then they are just down the trail a litle further. > YMOS > Ole > ---------- > >From: hawknest4@juno.com > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis > >Date: Wed, May 10, 2000, 2:24 AM > > > > >ole--- > >well put---remember this is a brotherhood here to help each other---NUFF > >SAID---CUT the BS---I have been slapped by the period pirots before and > >then went back with my documentation and proved them wrong---done my > >homework and was 5% smarter---lets get off of this subject all of us know > >its a tender one---we aint judgeing brothers---if a brother done wrong he > >is told politely and on a one to one basis---each has helped in that > >scenario before---I have even went and loaned stuff to a guy to help him > >be period correct if i could help him--- > > > >lets shake hands and close this one out guys--- > > > >YMHOSANT > > =+= > >HAWK > >Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > >854 Glenfield Dr. > >Palm Harbor florida 34684 > >E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > >http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > > >________________________________________________________________ > >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 14:07:14 -0700 Dennis, you forgot to mention the tiny teddy bear, the incense, prayer bells and so forth. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:35 AM > Walt Wrote: > > So what does D. camp look like? > > > Walt, > Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing > like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available. And nada when > it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a > canteen usually. My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in > reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by > myself, with Gwen, in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned > where. What did you have in mind? > Dennis > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: VRsmussen@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Please remove me from the mailing list Date: 10 May 2000 15:18:59 EDT Please Thanks Vaughn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 12:43:21 -0700 I figured you were hiding out there someplace awaiting to pounce......... ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:07 PM > Dennis, you forgot to mention the tiny teddy bear, the incense, prayer bells > and so forth. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: D Miles > To: ; > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:35 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage > > > > Walt Wrote: > > > So what does D. camp look like? > > > > > > Walt, > > Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing > > like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available. And nada > when > > it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a > > canteen usually. My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in > > reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by > > myself, with Gwen, in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned > > where. What did you have in mind? > > Dennis > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: artificial sinew Date: 10 May 2000 14:59:39 -0500 Yes, I believe we all "strive to improve" and most of us would rather use real sinew. However, not everyone bags a deer, or elk or any big game each year. I admire those who are able to ignore the square life and [legally?] hunt and bag six or ten deer a year. And who have time to harvest the sinew and hand tan the hides and hand make their gear. For most it is a dream. I feel very fortunate if I kill a deer every other year. Our muzzle loading seasons here are often in very warm weather. Got to get the carcass to a chilling room and processor quickly or it is just buzzard bait. Hard to harvest the sinew. And one little whitetail does not produce much sinew by his lonesome. So, I "strive" to do my best with artificial sinew. Used right, it looks good and lasts. My 'skins and capotes and blankets and plunder is important to me but in the big picture of daily living they are really luxuries. I take very good care of all of it as I cannot go out and kill a couple critters each time I need a new shirt or mocs or whatever. I would hope that most reenactors respect the fact that not everyone can actually "live" the life of an 1800's trapper or whatever. The rest of us "strive" to do our best to help preserve that part of history. And most of us respect those who are "striving to improve". Respect and understanding are American traits. (p.s. forgive me if above sounds angry. one of my failings is that I do not deal well with negativism or elitists) Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 16:21:24 -0400 Pablo.. Shhhhhhhhhhh.......... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 10 May 2000 14:45:03 -0600 --------------58F8DC5AA39B5A61063E8FAD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, You are right. Recurves were found in the fur trade. George CAtlin's "Letters and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Conditions of North American Indians" volume 1(what a mouth full) shows recurves in all of the pictures when he painted bows. Also, Stanley Honour (who makes ram horns bows) might be a good source for more information on this. Dang, if those bows aren't nice mike.. Bill Cunningham wrote: > Absolutely! I used to practice going out with just a flinter or a bow > and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool blanket and the clothes on > my back. In a few days you learn that it is very possible to get along > with the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some that > aren't - such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It > was on a couple of these trips that I even came up with the idea of a > small tent I could also use as a pack. Made it and carried it for > years. Now age is creeping up on me and I have had to learn to be a > bit more cautious. I carry a first aid kit and often ride a horse.But > speaking of recurves, weren't they around long before the fur period? > Seems to me I saw one in the museum at Betatakin. I know they existed > in Eurasia, but it seems to me that some of the south western Indians > had them also. The one I saw wasn't extreme like the horse bows of the > Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow recurve. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Moore > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) > Bill, > I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify > carrying artifical sinew. I just feel > that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to > use for building a shelter, making > a tripod or any putting together any number of things are > sinew, rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by > trying these and seeing what works and what doesn't, > wouldn't that be the best for us when called upon to have to > use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. And to me, alot > of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are well > made, durable items that can be the best you can buy > (wheather it is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing > stuff up with), but to me (and this is only my opinion) why > not tie both worlds together and have authenic equipement > that is durable, comfortable and replaceable? > Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of > people have choosen sides in > the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? > Make you and your equipment the > best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to > survive, maybe even be > comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love > them. But if I ever had to replace them while in the > mountains (it can happen: a horse or mule scatters > everything for a mile or too, you loose one of them fording > a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals > them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to > make a new pair. > Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind > of like the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the > new fangled wheel bows. And different guys like different > things > at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to > hammer out and make people > think???? > > > mike. > people. > Bill Cunningham wrote: > > > I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and > > a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked > > nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the > > antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, > > sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a > > hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. > > But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true > > survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough > > sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need > > it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and > > splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or > > so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small > > coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? > > Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what > > if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on > > it?Bill C > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: D Miles > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > > Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM > > Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) > > > > Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to > > many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC > > authentic, documented items in various forms.All > > high quality.... But for some reason, allot of > > them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade > > lists.....GO figger...D "Abair ach beagan is > > abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > --------------58F8DC5AA39B5A61063E8FAD Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill,
    You are right. Recurves were found in the fur trade. George CAtlin's "Letters
and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Conditions of North American Indians"
volume 1(what a mouth full) shows recurves in all of the pictures when he painted
bows. Also, Stanley Honour (who makes ram horns bows) might be a good source
for more information on this. Dang, if those bows aren't nice
                                                                                    mike..

Bill Cunningham wrote:

 Absolutely! I used to practice going out with just a flinter or a bow and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool blanket and the clothes on my back. In a few days you learn that it is very possible to get along with the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some that aren't - such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It was on a couple of these trips that I even came up with the idea of a small tent I could also use as a pack. Made it and carried it for years. Now age is creeping up on me and I have had to learn to be a bit more cautious. I carry a first aid kit and often ride a horse.But speaking of recurves, weren't they around long before the fur period? Seems to me I saw one in the museum at Betatakin. I know they existed in Eurasia, but it seems to me that some of the south western Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't extreme like the horse bows of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow recurve.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
 Bill,
    I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying artifical sinew. I just feel
that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for building a shelter, making
a tripod or any putting together any  number of  things are sinew, rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me (and this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and have authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?
Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have choosen sides in
the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you and your equipment the
best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive, maybe even be
comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair.
Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows. And different guys like different things
at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer out and make people
think????
                                                                        mike.
people.
Bill Cunningham wrote:
I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?Bill C
-----Original Message-----
From: D Miles <deforge1@bright.net>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
 Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...D  "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
  "Knowing how is just the beginning"
--------------58F8DC5AA39B5A61063E8FAD-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: MtMan-List: Re: cordage Date: 10 May 2000 16:19:48 -0500 Making rope is a little more involved than twisting fibers and cords together. You have to use twists in opposite directions for each level. I was at the Mystic Sea Village in Connecticut last week and saw a part of a rope walk that originally came from the Plymouth Cordage Company. I made some notes, but I don't have them now, so some of my terminology may be incorrect. The fibers are twisted in one direction to make cords? The rope is then made by twisting the cords in the opposite direction. The opposite twist makes them hold together without fraying as bad. The ropes can be twisted together in the opposite direction again to make a cable. During the rendezvous era, they hadn't invented the rope twisting machines so they had rope walks that were buildings that were 1000+ feet long (two story too)! The 1000 foot buildings were was needed because they made ropes in 100 fathoms long (600 feet). When 1000 feet of fibers were laid into a cord, the twists would cause the overall length to shrink to about 600 feet. First they were using hemp (cannabis) ropes for sailing. For the Plymouth Cordage Company, the hemp was imported from Russia and some from the Midwest area near Saint Louis. The hemp was strong, but it needed to be pine tarred to prevent it from rotting. The tar made the rope stiff and was pretty bad and I imagine messy going through sheaves and pulleys. Hence the name 'tar' was used for a sailor. During the rendezvous era (I can't remember the year), they started using manilla. It is not from a manilla plant, but from a type of banana plant. It was from Manilla, Philippines, hence it's name. Manilla has its own natural oils, so tar wasn't necessary. This made flexible ropes. The shipping industry quickly switched over to manilla for their running lines (lines that moved), but stuck with the hemp for their fixed lines because it was stronger. That's about all I know about ropes except for knot tying. YMOS Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: cordage Date: 10 May 2000 14:57:14 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:19 PM > Making rope is a little more involved than twisting fibers and cords > together. You have to use twists in opposite directions for each > level. Glenn, Great information about how rope was made and what it was made out of at different times. We had a discussion about that some time back and the answer was not easy to find. I must disagree with your findings above. Making rope is certainly more involved simply due to the lengths made but the process is esentially the same as it is for hand making cordage. The process for hand making cordage requires that you twist individual groups of fiber bundles (or yarns) in the same direction until you have a managable section of each of the strands you are working with well wound up on itself. Then you let them twist around each other which forms them into an integral cord of two or more strands. To make it workable the yarns usually are not long and more material must be "grafted" in as you proceed. This is what is done in a rope walk or with a rope machine. The several strands or yarns (usually three) are twisted either by hand over the length of the rope walk or by the machine which twist's all the strands at once off their individual serving spools. When they reach the right degree of tension, the main cord is allowed to turn (it will want to turn in the opposite direction if I have it pictured correctly) and as it spins, a divider that keeps each strand separate will be moved down the rope walk or away from the finished cord, thus the rope is formed. The same process is used in hand making cordage but of course it is a much slower process and all done by hand a few inches at a time. A skilled worker can make cordage quit quickly though. Are you sure about rope twisting machines not being available during the Rendezvous time period? I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 17:21:07 -0700 That ain't no way to be Dennis ! Pendleton -----Original Message----- Hawk, Is that "Lucette" thing look like a thick slingshot, sorta? I think I have seen those in a catalog somewhere, in with the spinning supplies.. I will have to look before I go out to the shop.. Cordage, eh? That IS a pure wonderment....And square to booot.. Would be fun to bring that square stuff to a doins and show the Brothers somthing queersome.. D PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good, when I am a mind to.. And the invitation still goes, I would like to get on the ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton) D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage Date: 10 May 2000 18:14:40 EDT > Not an expert on cordage by any means but I assure you that you can make > you're rope twister idea work with any number of strands up to the point it > is just not practical anymore. Those "rope twisters" are the biggest pain in the dupa ever foisted on kids by the fathers of America. They are designed to show Cub Scouts how inept their fathers really are. Several have given advice on how to make cordage. Here's how to use it, or any thread, twine, or whatever else you have handy, to make rope. You only need 2 things and they are both the same.............two 6" long sticks. A partner helps, but you can do it by yourself. Take a length of twine that is three times the final length desired. Tie one end to your stick. Loop it over your partner's stick, back over your stick, and tie the other end to your partner's stick. Pull taut to even the strands out. You now have three equal length strands. Keep the strands taut at all times. Both of your start turning your sticks in a clockwise direction until the cord just starts to bunch up it you release the tension slightly. Now, both of you lay your weight into it just to the point of breaking. This will "set" it. Repeat step one again. Loop it over your buddy's stick, and back over your's. You will have 3 strands again. This time, turn your sticks counter-clockwise until it starts to bunch again. Pull hard to set it again. You now have a 9 strand, double-twist rope. It will be as good or better than any commercial rope you can buy, and it will have been made in a primitive manner. By varying the thickness of the beginning material, you can make any size rope you want, or you can use step one to make a series of beginning strands for a larger thickness rope. I use single strand hemp thread and make small, twisted cords to hang my powder horn or neck knife from. Each end of the rope made this way has a natural loop in it., and you just whip it slightly back from the loop. If you don't have a partner with you, you can use a broken stob on a tree, or any other convenient stick that is stationary. If you use a fencepost, then you have a damn big loop in one end. If you are a group, and someone knows how to splice, then you can make each man a "Ranger Rope" This is a 6 foot piece of rope with a loop in one end and a toggle backspliced in the other end. You put the toggle of your partners rope through the loop of your rope. In an 8 man team, you can conveniently have 48 feet of useable rope distributed between the team. Try it you will like it...............unless you have a two dimensional mind and can't visualize how the strands are looped. If this is the case, then you should use the "rope twister" mentioned at the beginning because you most certainly fall in the Cub Scout Dad category. Now that I have taught you how to make rope, you guys who made the nasty comments about the thread that Capt Lahti, me, and the good Widow were involved in last week can take yours and try to piss up it. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 18:24:00 -0400 Sorry Larry, But you know how us nazis are.... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 17:44:19 -0700 Yep ! Nazis, Elitist, Wanabes, and someone making a fashion statement, hell I always wanted to somebody. Guess I should have been more specific. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Sorry Larry, But you know how us nazis are.... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: artificial sinew Date: 10 May 2000 17:45:53 -0700 Frank, Have you tried using Linen cord to sew your leather goods ? Try it you might like it. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Yes, I believe we all "strive to improve" and most of us would rather use real sinew. However, not everyone bags a deer, or elk or any big game each year. I admire those who are able to ignore the square life and [legally?] hunt and bag six or ten deer a year. And who have time to harvest the sinew and hand tan the hides and hand make their gear. For most it is a dream. I feel very fortunate if I kill a deer every other year. Our muzzle loading seasons here are often in very warm weather. Got to get the carcass to a chilling room and processor quickly or it is just buzzard bait. Hard to harvest the sinew. And one little whitetail does not produce much sinew by his lonesome. So, I "strive" to do my best with artificial sinew. Used right, it looks good and lasts. My 'skins and capotes and blankets and plunder is important to me but in the big picture of daily living they are really luxuries. I take very good care of all of it as I cannot go out and kill a couple critters each time I need a new shirt or mocs or whatever. I would hope that most reenactors respect the fact that not everyone can actually "live" the life of an 1800's trapper or whatever. The rest of us "strive" to do our best to help preserve that part of history. And most of us respect those who are "striving to improve". Respect and understanding are American traits. (p.s. forgive me if above sounds angry. one of my failings is that I do not deal well with negativism or elitists) Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 17:47:19 -0700 should have said- wanted to be somebody. Oh well ! Pendleton -----Original Message----- Yep ! Nazis, Elitist, Wanabes, and someone making a fashion statement, hell I always wanted to somebody. Guess I should have been more specific. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Sorry Larry, But you know how us nazis are.... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses. Date: 10 May 2000 17:30:32 -0600 Chance Tiffie wrote: > Bluelodge, > Seems to me there are many accounts of horseshoes, and the equipment needed > to set them, going to the Rockies. So much for un-shod horses. > Funny thing about research, it made me quit using artificial sinew, but I > get to shoe my mules. > > Cliff Tiffie > PO Box 5089 > Durant, OK > 74702 > 580-924-4187 > --------------------- > Aux Aliments de Pays! > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Depending on the ground conditions, have read of many just shoeing the front feet only and using no shoes in the winter to save ice build up and accidents. Have done this for years with the 8-10 animals we had over a 15-18 year period, rocks kept the hoofs wore down on the rear and took very little trimming, plus with this number of horses it sure saved on shoeing bills every 6-7 weeks. Later Buck ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 17:32:33 -0600 "Paul W. Jones" wrote: > Dennis, you forgot to mention the tiny teddy bear, the incense, prayer bells > and so forth. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: D Miles > To: ; > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:35 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage > > > Walt Wrote: > > > So what does D. camp look like? > > > > > > Walt, > > Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing > > like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available. And nada > when > > it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a > > canteen usually. My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in > > reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by > > myself, with Gwen, in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned > > where. What did you have in mind? > > Dennis > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html you missed the lollipops Mr. Jones !!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 10 May 2000 19:41:24 -0400 HE also forgot the bunny slippers.... But I stole 'em from his camp.. He said he bought 'em from some outfit called Clark & Son's.... "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 10 May 2000 18:34:15 -0500 --=====================_23635653==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bill, I've not done much but observe luzets. The technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around. It could be called crocheting in the round. Isn't this pretty closely related to some tatting techniques? Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, I've given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire length. I've always considered it decorative. John... At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote: >Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping it. >Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I think >it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've never >really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the fishermen on >the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you have really >worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new cordage tool? >Bill >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com> >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >><hist_text@lists.xmission.com> >>Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) >> >>Bill, >> >>I see this differently. >> >>Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long? Nice if >>you can get it but 6" works. >> >>Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; & sinew >>is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and fletchings. >> >>Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in long >>lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long >>lengths? If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone. >> >>For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many other >>materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines, >>weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage. In todays mountains no >>one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine which >>can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so much we >>find is different. Field expedient drop spindles can be readily >>fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- those born >>to the period. >> >>Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely >>than any nylon fastening. >> >>How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of easily >>replaced sinew pieces? Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, bone and >>fat; other handy survival items. >> >>At best artificial sinew is a convenience. It is not demonstrably >>superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is used. It offers >>no particular survival advantage other than convenience. >> >>I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it. I >>haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in >>better than 15 years now. Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it >>when I put it away last. >> >>I use linen for convenience. I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand >>twist. For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the >>thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home. If I need a heavy >>thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in >>lengths suitable to the work. You can buy the thread in varying numbers >>of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool. I find it >>easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking). Wax it as >>you work. >> >>If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it. Sewing is slower if the thread >>is too long. 36" of thread is only needed when doing a full saddle >>stitch. For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter >>lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress with >>greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled. >> >>I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in my >>possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one ball last >>for years. I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things it can do >>linen and nylon cannot,. >> >>A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your >>thread. A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. A spinning wheel >>is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need to make >>a lot of thread. >> >>At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any other >>spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier cordage from >>the beginning. Braiding is another cordage skill. Spun materials can be >>re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work. >> >>Cordage is critical to survival. From thread to rope the skills acquired >>are complimentary and equally necessary. A set of skills nearly as >>important as fire. Cordage can ease making fire if all you have is wood: >>a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill. >> >>The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. Using it risks not >>learning all the lessons required for one to be certain. It is about >>being absolutely certain. >> >>John... >> >>Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about >>4" long and 3" in diameter. >> >> >> >>At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote: >>>I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought >>>in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had >>>a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory >>>tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a >>>hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it >>>brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, >>>would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it >>>might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or >>>less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so >>>in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial >>>sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a >>>fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) >>>depended on it? >>>Bill C >> >> >>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >>John Kramer --=====================_23635653==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Bill,

I've not done much but observe luzets.  The technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around.  It could be called crocheting in the round.  Isn't this pretty closely related to some tatting techniques?

Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, I've given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire length.  I've always considered it decorative. 

John...


At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote:
Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new cordage tool?
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Bill,

I see this differently.

Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long?  Nice if you can get it but 6" works.

Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and fletchings.

Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long lengths?  If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone.

For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so much we find is different.  Field expedient drop spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- those born to the period.

Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely than any nylon fastening. 

How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad of easily replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items.

At best artificial sinew is a convenience.  It is not demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is used.  It offers no particular survival advantage other than convenience.  

I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it.  I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I put it away last.

I use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I need a heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy the thread in varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool.  I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking).  Wax it as you work. 

If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it.  Sewing is slower if the thread is too long.  36" of thread is only needed when doing a full saddle stitch.  For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled.

I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one ball last for years.  I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things it can do linen and nylon cannot,. 

A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need to make a lot of thread.

At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier cordage from the beginning.  Braiding is another cordage skill.  Spun materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work.

Cordage is critical to survival.  From thread to rope the skills acquired are complimentary and equally necessary.   A set of skills nearly as important as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill.

The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain.  It is about being absolutely certain.

John...

Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter.



At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:
I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?
Bill C


Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <kramer@kramerize.com>
--=====================_23635653==_.ALT-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 10 May 2000 19:07:35 -0500 amen and well said. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > hawknest4@juno.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 3:24 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis >=20 >=20 > ole--- > well put---remember this is a brotherhood here to help each = other---NUFF > SAID---CUT the BS---I have been slapped by the period pirots before = and > then went back with my documentation and proved them wrong---done my > homework and was 5% smarter---lets get off of this subject all of us = know > its a tender one---we aint judgeing brothers---if a brother done wrong = he > is told politely and on a one to one basis---each has helped in that > scenario before---I have even went and loaned stuff to a guy to help = him > be period correct if i could help him--- >=20 > lets shake hands and close this one out guys--- >=20 > YMHOSANT > =3D+=3D > HAWK > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark = (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site:=20 > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce >=20 > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 10 May 2000 19:08:06 -0500 Yes and no. Keep in mind that we see the historical records of the = adult survivors. Childhood injuries and disease were quite another = story. Child mortality was extremely high in centuries past, and still = is in some parts of the world. =20 That said, I've seen this argument before, only it was at an SCA event, = and the more-authentic-than-thou crowd were annoying. They'd have been = less so had they been adhering to the level of authenticy they were = browbeating others about, but that's another issue. They DO have a = legitimate point to make. If you goal is to accurately depict a = previous time, then do as much as you can. Don't fudge it if you can = avoid it. At the same time, those who can approach that level, understand that = some of us ain't there yet. I'm not. I'm trying, but I'm not there. If completely accurate re-enactment is not your goal, fine and dandy. As I understand the AMM, they (I'm not a brother, I hope to be somewhere = down the road, but I have a LOT to learn, and much to do) are dedicated = to studying and preserving the lifestyles of those who came before. = Mayhaps our revered ancestors would have made do with nylon were it = available. Don't know. I DO know it was NOT there. So, if what you = want is to attend the anything goes vous, enjoy! Have a grand time! I = can see how some would enjoy that, I've been to one, and I have to admit = I had a good time. I stuck with my blankets and hides instead of an = air mattress though, and my flint and steel instead of matches. Nobody = gave me any grief, so I won't give anyone any.=20 So, to those who want solid authenticity, help others like me to learn. = Teach us what to work on without ripping on us for HONEST mistakes. Those who don't want that level of authenticity, understand where the = others are coming from. If an event is billed as pre-1840, stick with = it. If you DON'T want to do that, I'd suggest not going. There's = plenty of shoots that don't stick to the pre-1840 rule. Sorry to preach, specially being a greenhorn, and a flatlander (I live = in Missouri, it don't get much flatter I reckon, 'cept maybe Kansas = =3D), but as I said, I saw this kinda feud when I did medieval = re-enactment. It ruined the events for everyone, and soured me toward = something I had enjoyed. Todd > >Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple. =20 > This is bullshit!!! No one is saying we are running around=20 > with original > bodies and outfits. Some of us are saying that the more authentic to = the > original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the > past--and the more you can learn. =20 > I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in=20 > teeth from the > late Vicotorian era. Major surgery has been done without killing the > patient since at least 1000 BC. Most folks who had bones broken=20 > managed to > get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record. > I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times=20 > to believe your > nonsense. Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it ain't what = the > docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find inside. = > LongWalker c. du B. >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage Date: 10 May 2000 17:08:46 -0700 > If you are a group, and someone knows how to splice, then you can make each > man a "Ranger Rope" This is a 6 foot piece of rope with a loop in one end > and a toggle backspliced in the other end. You put the toggle of your > partners rope through the loop of your rope. In an 8 man team, you can > conveniently have 48 feet of useable rope distributed between the team. Friends, Now that you know how to make some rope the "Right Way" if you are coming to the AMM Camp this summer in Idaho and don't know how to splice, look me up. I'd be pleased as punch/shrub to show you how to do it. Back splices, end splices loops, grommets, snells for your eyeless hooks and I'll even through in a Turks head and some other proper sailor knots that will do you proud. We'll sit down in the shade of a big old Idaho cedar with a cup of shrub and rum from the sutlers tent, poured by some of the lovelyest ladies this side of the Pacific shores and do a bit o' marlin spike seamship. As always, I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539 Date: 10 May 2000 19:25:15 -0000 Capt. Lahti' wrote: >Are you sure about rope twisting machines not being available during the >Rendezvous time period? I remain... By that I meant the compact machines that make continuous rope and roll it up as it is made. They did have machines in the rope walks to twist the fibers and cords like you described, but to make a 100 fathom rope they had to make it all in one 1000 foot line before they could put it on a roll. I would recommend Mystic sea village to anyone who happens to travel near. Worth a drive from Boston, Providence, or even NY City. They have several sailing ships, a cooper shop, woodcarving shop, blacksmith shop, etc.. I learned a few sea chantys that I wailed around a rendezvous fire last weekend too! I learned something about barrels too. They put solid things in barrels as well as liquid things. So why did they go to the expense of crafting a barrell to hold something like nails when a wooden box would be easier to make, and much cheaper. So what is your answer? --- Final Answer? YMOS Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539 Date: 10 May 2000 20:55:33 EDT In a message dated 5/10/00 5:24:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, llsi@texas.net writes: > So why did they go to the expense of crafting a > barrell to hold something like nails when a wooden box would be easier to > make, and much cheaper. So what is your answer? Is it because heavy barrels could be rolled? Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tomactor@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539 Date: 10 May 2000 21:00:49 EDT In a message dated 5/10/00 5:24:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, llsi@texas.net writes: > I learned something about barrels too. They put solid things in barrels as > well as liquid things. So why did they go to the expense of crafting a > barrell to hold something like nails when a wooden box would be easier to > make, and much cheaper. So what is your answer? --- Final Answer? It can be rolled? Tom Laidlaw, web coordinator for OCTA's On-line Bookstore ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry derringer Subject: MtMan-List: western rendezvous Date: 10 May 2000 20:08:15 -0500 Am I mixed up or what? I thought there was a Western rendezvous in Montana next year close to Glacier park. I just got a notice that NMLRA is going to have a Western at Avery in Arizona in 2001. need to get my fact straight, so I can plan vac for a Glacier park rondy?????? jd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses. Date: 10 May 2000 13:13:07 -0600 Cliff Tiffie wrote: >>Seems to me there are many accounts of horseshoes, and the equipment needed to set them, going to the Rockies. So much for un-shod horses. Funny thing about research, it made me quit using artificial sinew, but I get to shoe my mules.<< I'd be interested in hearing more about this, because my reading into the earlier Canadian fur trade period (1774-1821) has not yet turned up any references to horseshoes; in fact, some of my primary references talk about which kind of horses' hooves are the toughest, since they're not shod. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 10 May 2000 20:45:17 -0700 Todd, I really hadn't intended to make anymore comments on this subject, but one point you made is at the center of what riles me the most. That is the fact that most rendezvous are touted as being a " Pre 1840 Primitive Rendezvous ", and after you drive untold hours, you get there and the doins is complete with hot dog stands powered by propane stoves, there are folks walking around everywhere wearing blue jeans and sneakers (even though primitive dress is required ), and some, but not all the traders are peddling flea market junk and foreign made trinkets that don't have anything to do with the Fur Trade. The point you made about, if a event is pre-1840 then stick with it, is right on. I really didn't intend to stir up a firestorm with my comments. Honest I didn't. I just don't understand why everytime someone makes a comment about things not being as they should at a lot of rendezvous they get ripped. I know everyone's perspective on what is authentic and appropriate is different, and I respect that. I know that everyone doesn't feel the need to be as hard core as others, but at the first comment about the lack of authenticity at rendezvous, we get labeled as Nazis, Wannabees, Fashion Police, and ridiculed as being able to talk the talk but not able to walk the walk even though most of you wouldn't know Dennis or me if we bit you on the butt. With that I'll shut up, for now anyway. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Yes and no. Keep in mind that we see the historical records of the adult survivors. Childhood injuries and disease were quite another story. Child mortality was extremely high in centuries past, and still is in some parts of the world. That said, I've seen this argument before, only it was at an SCA event, and the more-authentic-than-thou crowd were annoying. They'd have been less so had they been adhering to the level of authenticy they were browbeating others about, but that's another issue. They DO have a legitimate point to make. If you goal is to accurately depict a previous time, then do as much as you can. Don't fudge it if you can avoid it. At the same time, those who can approach that level, understand that some of us ain't there yet. I'm not. I'm trying, but I'm not there. If completely accurate re-enactment is not your goal, fine and dandy. As I understand the AMM, they (I'm not a brother, I hope to be somewhere down the road, but I have a LOT to learn, and much to do) are dedicated to studying and preserving the lifestyles of those who came before. Mayhaps our revered ancestors would have made do with nylon were it available. Don't know. I DO know it was NOT there. So, if what you want is to attend the anything goes vous, enjoy! Have a grand time! I can see how some would enjoy that, I've been to one, and I have to admit I had a good time. I stuck with my blankets and hides instead of an air mattress though, and my flint and steel instead of matches. Nobody gave me any grief, so I won't give anyone any. So, to those who want solid authenticity, help others like me to learn. Teach us what to work on without ripping on us for HONEST mistakes. Those who don't want that level of authenticity, understand where the others are coming from. If an event is billed as pre-1840, stick with it. If you DON'T want to do that, I'd suggest not going. There's plenty of shoots that don't stick to the pre-1840 rule. Sorry to preach, specially being a greenhorn, and a flatlander (I live in Missouri, it don't get much flatter I reckon, 'cept maybe Kansas =), but as I said, I saw this kinda feud when I did medieval re-enactment. It ruined the events for everyone, and soured me toward something I had enjoyed. Todd > >Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple. > This is bullshit!!! No one is saying we are running around > with original > bodies and outfits. Some of us are saying that the more authentic to the > original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the > past--and the more you can learn. > I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in > teeth from the > late Vicotorian era. Major surgery has been done without killing the > patient since at least 1000 BC. Most folks who had bones broken > managed to > get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record. > I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times > to believe your > nonsense. Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it ain't what the > docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find inside. > LongWalker c. du B. > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 10 May 2000 21:24:08 -0700 Todd, That last paragraph was not aimed at you personally. Just blowing off more steam. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Todd, I really hadn't intended to make anymore comments on this subject, but one point you made is at the center of what riles me the most. That is the fact that most rendezvous are touted as being a " Pre 1840 Primitive Rendezvous ", and after you drive untold hours, you get there and the doins is complete with hot dog stands powered by propane stoves, there are folks walking around everywhere wearing blue jeans and sneakers (even though primitive dress is required ), and some, but not all the traders are peddling flea market junk and foreign made trinkets that don't have anything to do with the Fur Trade. The point you made about, if a event is pre-1840 then stick with it, is right on. I really didn't intend to stir up a firestorm with my comments. Honest I didn't. I just don't understand why everytime someone makes a comment about things not being as they should at a lot of rendezvous they get ripped. I know everyone's perspective on what is authentic and appropriate is different, and I respect that. I know that everyone doesn't feel the need to be as hard core as others, but at the first comment about the lack of authenticity at rendezvous, we get labeled as Nazis, Wannabees, Fashion Police, and ridiculed as being able to talk the talk but not able to walk the walk even though most of you wouldn't know Dennis or me if we bit you on the butt. With that I'll shut up, for now anyway. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Yes and no. Keep in mind that we see the historical records of the adult survivors. Childhood injuries and disease were quite another story. Child mortality was extremely high in centuries past, and still is in some parts of the world. That said, I've seen this argument before, only it was at an SCA event, and the more-authentic-than-thou crowd were annoying. They'd have been less so had they been adhering to the level of authenticy they were browbeating others about, but that's another issue. They DO have a legitimate point to make. If you goal is to accurately depict a previous time, then do as much as you can. Don't fudge it if you can avoid it. At the same time, those who can approach that level, understand that some of us ain't there yet. I'm not. I'm trying, but I'm not there. If completely accurate re-enactment is not your goal, fine and dandy. As I understand the AMM, they (I'm not a brother, I hope to be somewhere down the road, but I have a LOT to learn, and much to do) are dedicated to studying and preserving the lifestyles of those who came before. Mayhaps our revered ancestors would have made do with nylon were it available. Don't know. I DO know it was NOT there. So, if what you want is to attend the anything goes vous, enjoy! Have a grand time! I can see how some would enjoy that, I've been to one, and I have to admit I had a good time. I stuck with my blankets and hides instead of an air mattress though, and my flint and steel instead of matches. Nobody gave me any grief, so I won't give anyone any. So, to those who want solid authenticity, help others like me to learn. Teach us what to work on without ripping on us for HONEST mistakes. Those who don't want that level of authenticity, understand where the others are coming from. If an event is billed as pre-1840, stick with it. If you DON'T want to do that, I'd suggest not going. There's plenty of shoots that don't stick to the pre-1840 rule. Sorry to preach, specially being a greenhorn, and a flatlander (I live in Missouri, it don't get much flatter I reckon, 'cept maybe Kansas =), but as I said, I saw this kinda feud when I did medieval re-enactment. It ruined the events for everyone, and soured me toward something I had enjoyed. Todd > >Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple. > This is bullshit!!! No one is saying we are running around > with original > bodies and outfits. Some of us are saying that the more authentic to the > original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the > past--and the more you can learn. > I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in > teeth from the > late Vicotorian era. Major surgery has been done without killing the > patient since at least 1000 BC. Most folks who had bones broken > managed to > get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological record. > I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times > to believe your > nonsense. Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it ain't what the > docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find inside. > LongWalker c. du B. > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #539 Date: 10 May 2000 19:00:14 -0700 > By that I meant the compact machines that make continuous rope and roll it > up as it is made. They did have machines in the rope walks to twist the > fibers and cords like you described, but to make a 100 fathom rope they had > to make it all in one 1000 foot line before they could put it on a roll. Iron Burner, OK, I see what your talking about. They used rope machines like the Boy Scouts and Cub Scout Dads use but had to do the rope Walk thing where you make the rope in one long piece. Got'cha. I > learned a few sea chantys that I wailed around a rendezvous fire last > weekend too! I'd love to hear you sing some sea chanty's around the fire. We have a small Party out here, The Black River Party whose young members can sing some great original drinking songs. I hope they are in fine form for the AMM Western this summer in Idaho, cause it is a treat to hear them come to your fire. Makes the ladies blush too. > > I learned something about barrels too. They put solid things in barrels as > well as liquid things. So why did they go to the expense of crafting a > barrell to hold something like nails when a wooden box would be easier to > make, and much cheaper. So what is your answer? --- Final Answer? Final Answer? They are strong, can be moved regardless of how much they weigh just by rolling. They pack into ship holds tighter than rectangles do. They can be used to ship most anything be it liquid or solid. They require no metal to make. They can be reused easily for other goods in the opposite direction, etc. Though they are labor intensive to build, that is often the better way in consideration of civilization and cultural conditions, remember labor was cheaper than metal for much of early history. It can be a cottage industry without the investment in tooling and dependence on other suppliers (for the nails and the flat sawn wood used in boxes as an example). Hope that helps answer the question. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 10 May 2000 21:34:03 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFBAC7.765B0CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the information. I think I will pass on the tool. Right now = I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off the barn and really screwed = myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots of skin and picked up = some dandy bruises. -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 Bill, =20 I've not done much but observe luzets. The technique is the basis = for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined by = two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around. It could be = called crocheting in the round. Isn't this pretty closely related to = some tatting techniques? =20 Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, I've = given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a = chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on = dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire = length. I've always considered it decorative. =20 =20 John... =20 =20 At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote: =20 Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping = it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I = think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've = never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the = fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you = have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new = cordage tool? Bill =20 -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com = Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 Bill, =20 I see this differently. =20 Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" = long? Nice if you can get it but 6" works. =20 Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily = done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and = fletchings. =20 Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy = in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long = lengths? If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone. =20 For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- = many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, = intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage. In = todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling = wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use = what you find, so much we find is different. Field expedient drop = spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would = have taught -- those born to the period. =20 Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more = securely than any nylon fastening. =20 =20 How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small = wad of easily replaced sinew pieces? Sinew comes free with meat, guts, = hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items. =20 At best artificial sinew is a convenience. It is not = demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is = used. It offers no particular survival advantage other than = convenience. =20 =20 I've used it but, could never find a real justification for = it. I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a = lifetime) in better than 15 years now. Must have figured I wouldn't be = needing it when I put it away last. =20 I use linen for convenience. I have a spool of unwaxed 4 = strand twist. For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and = re-spin the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home. If I need = a heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is = appropriate in lengths suitable to the work. You can buy the thread in = varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool. = I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking). = Wax it as you work. =20 =20 If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it. Sewing is slower = if the thread is too long. 36" of thread is only needed when doing a = full saddle stitch. For all other sewing threads are best cut and used = in shorter lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work will = progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly = tangled. =20 I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- = dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the = one ball last for years. I have a small wad of sinew as well for the = things it can do linen and nylon cannot,. =20 =20 A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to = spin your thread. A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. A = spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you = really need to make a lot of thread. =20 At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any = other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier = cordage from the beginning. Braiding is another cordage skill. Spun = materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work. =20 Cordage is critical to survival. From thread to rope the = skills acquired are complimentary and equally necessary. A set of = skills nearly as important as fire. Cordage can ease making fire if all = you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill. =20 The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. Using it = risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain. It = is about being absolutely certain. =20 John... =20 Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large = commercial ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter. =20 =20 =20 At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote: =20 I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time = and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and = he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that = it was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he = explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just = wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival = situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of = whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically = 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 = feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of = artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is = great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your = budget) depended on it? Bill C =20 =20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFBAC7.765B0CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the information. I think = I will pass=20 on the tool. Right now I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off the barn = and=20 really screwed myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots of = skin and=20 picked up some dandy bruises.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
T= o:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Bill,

I've not done much but observe luzets.  = The=20 technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by having = circular=20 areas defined by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked=20 around.  It could be called crocheting in the round.  = Isn't this=20 pretty closely related to some tatting techniques?

Someone = who has=20 used luzets may have a differing experience, I've given it little = attention=20 because it appeared to me too much like a chain stitch (like the = awl-for-awl=20 tools make, or the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one = thread=20 breaks you lose the entire length.  I've always considered it=20 decorative. 

John...


At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 = -0600, you=20 wrote:
Wow! Thanks for the=20 information! I am printing this and keeping it. Actually, I do = carry a=20 small coil of what we called (as kids) and I think it still is,=20 squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've never really = used it.=20 Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the fishermen on the = coast of=20 Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you have really worked = this=20 stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new cordage = tool?
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: = John Kramer=20 <kramer@kramerize.com>
T= o:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM
Subject: Re:=20 MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Bill,

I see this differently.

Why = would you=20 ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long?  = Nice if=20 you can get it but 6" works.

Certainly not for = sewing,=20 splicing a bowstring is readily done; & sinew is self = gluing=20 when used for serving strings, points and=20 fletchings.

Electrician's shooting line (aka, = artificial=20 sinew) is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you = really=20 need to use it in long lengths?  If you don't heat weld = the=20 knots, they come undone.

For threads, snares, lines = and every=20 other kind of such -- many other materials are useful as = cordage,=20 horse hair, bark, intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds = of=20 stuff makes cordage.  In todays mountains no one is = ever very=20 far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or twine which = can serve=20 many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you find, so much = we find=20 is different.  Field expedient drop spindles can be = readily=20 fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- = those=20 born to the period.

Rawhide and sinew can be made to = seize=20 tighter and bind more securely than any nylon = fastening. =20

How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over = a small=20 wad of easily replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free = with=20 meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival=20 items.

At best artificial sinew is a = convenience.  It is=20 not demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for = which=20 it is used.  It offers no particular survival advantage = other=20 than convenience.  

I've used it but, = could never=20 find a real justification for it.  I haven't been able = to find=20 my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 = years=20 now.  Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I = put it=20 away last.

I use linen for convenience.  I have = a spool=20 of unwaxed 4 strand twist.  For fine sewing I split = lengths to=20 two threads and re-spin the thread on the turned drop = spindle I use=20 at home.  If I need a heavy thread I untwist and spin = together=20 as many strands as is appropriate in lengths suitable to the = work.  You can buy the thread in varying numbers of = strands, in=20 left or right hand twist, on each spool.  I find it = easiest to=20 have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking).  Wax = it as=20 you work. 

If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I = make=20 it.  Sewing is slower if the thread is too long.  = 36"=20 of thread is only needed when doing a full saddle = stitch.  For=20 all other sewing threads are best cut and used in shorter=20 lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work will = progress=20 with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly=20 tangled.

I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed = thread (1=20 1/4" +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed = on the=20 trail has made the one ball last for years.  I have a = small wad=20 of sinew as well for the things it can do linen and nylon=20 cannot,. 

A convenient rock, or stick, or = whatever (?)=20 can serve to spin your thread.  A made drop spindle is = nice to=20 have at home.  A spinning wheel is a higher tech answer = to do=20 the same, useful if you really need to make a lot of=20 thread.

At some point it is instructive to acquire = some flax=20 (or any other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making = thread and=20 heavier cordage from the beginning.  Braiding is = another=20 cordage skill.  Spun materials can be re-spun and/or = braided as=20 best suits the work.

Cordage is critical to = survival. =20 From thread to rope the skills acquired are complimentary = and=20 equally necessary.   A set of skills nearly as = important=20 as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all you have = is wood:=20 a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill.

The=20 convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it = risks=20 not learning all the lessons required for one to be = certain. =20 It is about being absolutely = certain.

John...

Note:=20 the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial = ones about=20 4" long and 3" in diameter.



At = 08:50 AM=20 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:
I was watching = that=20 antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought in = an=20 Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was = sure he=20 had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that = it was=20 factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, = which he=20 explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see = the guy=20 just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of = questions. In=20 true survival situations, would you be able to obtain = enough=20 sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd = need it=20 for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and = splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet = or so in=20 your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil = of=20 artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical=20 authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your = life (or=20 in some cases, your budget) depended on it?
Bill=20 C


Use it = up, wear it=20 out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer =20 <kramer@kramerize.com>=20
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BFBAC7.765B0CC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 10 May 2000 22:33:38 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BFBACF.C92672C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Busted yer arse, didja Grandpa? You are just like me....still think = it's 1963. YMOS Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Cunningham=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 10:34 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Thanks for the information. I think I will pass on the tool. Right now = I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off the barn and really screwed = myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots of skin and picked up = some dandy bruises. -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Bill, I've not done much but observe luzets. The technique is the basis = for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined by = two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around. It could be = called crocheting in the round. Isn't this pretty closely related to = some tatting techniques? Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, I've = given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a = chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on = dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire = length. I've always considered it decorative. =20 John... At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote: Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and keeping = it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I = think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, I've = never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from the = fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like you = have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new = cordage tool? Bill -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Bill, I see this differently. Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12" long? = Nice if you can get it but 6" works. Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is readily done; = & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, points and = fletchings. Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in = long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use it in long = lengths? If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone. For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of such -- many = other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, = vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage. In todays = mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling wire &/or = twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use what you = find, so much we find is different. Field expedient drop spindles can = be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would have taught -- = those born to the period. Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and bind more = securely than any nylon fastening. =20 How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over a small wad = of easily replaced sinew pieces? Sinew comes free with meat, guts, = hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items. At best artificial sinew is a convenience. It is not = demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is = used. It offers no particular survival advantage other than = convenience. =20 I've used it but, could never find a real justification for it. = I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in = better than 15 years now. Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it = when I put it away last. I use linen for convenience. I have a spool of unwaxed 4 strand = twist. For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and re-spin the = thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home. If I need a heavy = thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is appropriate in = lengths suitable to the work. You can buy the thread in varying numbers = of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool. I find it = easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking). Wax it as = you work. =20 If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it. Sewing is slower if = the thread is too long. 36" of thread is only needed when doing a full = saddle stitch. For all other sewing threads are best cut and used in = shorter lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work will progress = with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly tangled. I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 1/4" +/- dia., = in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has made the one = ball last for years. I have a small wad of sinew as well for the things = it can do linen and nylon cannot,. =20 A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin = your thread. A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. A spinning = wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you really need = to make a lot of thread. At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax (or any = other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and heavier = cordage from the beginning. Braiding is another cordage skill. Spun = materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work. Cordage is critical to survival. From thread to rope the skills = acquired are complimentary and equally necessary. A set of skills = nearly as important as fire. Cordage can ease making fire if all you = have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill. The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. Using it = risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be certain. It = is about being absolutely certain. John... Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large commercial = ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter. At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote: I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a = guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was = sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was = factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained = was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it = brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, = would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it = might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or = less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so = in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial = sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a = fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) = depended on it? Bill C Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BFBACF.C92672C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Busted yer arse, didja Grandpa?  You are just = like=20 me....still think it's 1963.
YMOS
Lanney
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Cunningham
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 = 10:34=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Artificial Sinew=20 (was saws)

Thanks for the information. I = think I will=20 pass on the tool. Right now I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off = the barn=20 and really screwed myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots = of skin=20 and picked up some dandy bruises.
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
T= o:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Bill,

I've not done much but observe luzets.  = The=20 technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by having = circular=20 areas defined by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked=20 around.  It could be called crocheting in the round.  = Isn't this=20 pretty closely related to some tatting techniques?

Someone = who has=20 used luzets may have a differing experience, I've given it little = attention=20 because it appeared to me too much like a chain stitch (like the = awl-for-awl=20 tools make, or the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one = thread=20 breaks you lose the entire length.  I've always considered it=20 decorative. 

John...


At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 = -0600, you=20 wrote:
Wow! Thanks for the = information!=20 I am printing this and keeping it. Actually, I do carry a small = coil of=20 what we called (as kids) and I think it still is, squidding line = in my=20 pouch. Strange this is, I've never really used it. Strong as hell, = round=20 woven stuff from the fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, = John. It=20 sounds like you have really worked this stuff out. What do you = think of=20 Buck's new cordage tool?
Bill
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
T= o:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Bill,

I=20 see this differently.

Why would you ever need a strand of = sinew=20 much over 12" long?  Nice if you can get it but 6"=20 works.

Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is = readily=20 done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, = points=20 and fletchings.

Electrician's shooting line (aka, = artificial=20 sinew) is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you = really need=20 to use it in long lengths?  If you don't heat weld the = knots, they=20 come undone.

For threads, snares, lines and every other = kind of=20 such -- many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, = bark,=20 intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes = cordage. =20 In todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of = baling=20 wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's = fair to=20 use what you find, so much we find is different.  Field = expedient=20 drop spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a = mother=20 would have taught -- those born to the period.

Rawhide = and sinew=20 can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely than any = nylon=20 fastening. 

How does a coil of nylon improve = survivability=20 over a small wad of easily replaced sinew pieces?  Sinew = comes free=20 with meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival=20 items.

At best artificial sinew is a convenience.  = It is not=20 demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which = it is=20 used.  It offers no particular survival advantage other = than=20 convenience.  

I've used it but, could never = find a=20 real justification for it.  I haven't been able to find my = spool of=20 it (1 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years now.  = Must=20 have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I put it away = last.

I=20 use linen for convenience.  I have a spool of unwaxed 4 = strand=20 twist.  For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads and = re-spin=20 the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I = need a=20 heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is=20 appropriate in lengths suitable to the work.  You can buy = the=20 thread in varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand = twist, on=20 each spool.  I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed = (for=20 ease in reworking).  Wax it as you work. 

If I = need 5,=20 6, or ? strand -- I make it.  Sewing is slower if the = thread is too=20 long.  36" of thread is only needed when doing a full = saddle=20 stitch.  For all other sewing threads are best cut and used = in=20 shorter lengths.  Use a second thread if needed, the work = will=20 progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting = constantly=20 tangled.

I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread = (1 1/4"=20 +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail = has made=20 the one ball last for years.  I have a small wad of sinew = as well=20 for the things it can do linen and nylon cannot,.  =

A=20 convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin = your=20 thread.  A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  = A=20 spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if = you=20 really need to make a lot of thread.

At some point it is=20 instructive to acquire some flax (or any other = spinable/twistable fiber)=20 and try making thread and heavier cordage from the = beginning. =20 Braiding is another cordage skill.  Spun materials can be = re-spun=20 and/or braided as best suits the work.

Cordage is = critical to=20 survival.  From thread to rope the skills acquired are=20 complimentary and equally necessary.   A set of skills = nearly=20 as important as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all = you have=20 is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand = drill.

The=20 convenience of artificial sinew is seductive.  Using it = risks not=20 learning all the lessons required for one to be certain.  = It is=20 about being absolutely certain.

John...

Note: the = spools=20 of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones about 4" long = and 3"=20 in diameter.



At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you=20 wrote:
I was watching = that antiques=20 roadshow program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow = quiver.=20 It really looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. = But the=20 antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned leather, = sewed with=20 artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern = product. You=20 could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple = of=20 questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to = obtain=20 enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd = need it=20 for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing = it is=20 tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your = possibles pouch,=20 or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is=20 infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine = goal, but=20 what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on=20 it?
Bill=20 C


Use it up, = wear it out,=20 make do, or do without.
John Kramer =20 <kramer@kramerize.com>=20
= ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BFBACF.C92672C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: John (aka Jeremiah) Johnston's Guns Date: 10 May 2000 23:51:54 -0400 (EDT) according to the book Crow Killer they were a .30 cal Hawken and a Colt Walker. don't remember reading anywhere where the Hawken brothers made a .30 cal rifle? Also only about 1,100 Walkers were ever manufactured - and that was solely in the year 1847. Also picture in front of book shows Johnston standing and holding a Winchester Model 1876 rifle. Any insights from the camp or list would be appreciated. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List cordage Date: 10 May 2000 11:24:15 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BFBA72.45F845C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr Kanger was kind enough to give instructions on making cordage with a = couple of sticks, but he assumed you have some nice long strings to = start with. Cordage can be constructed with fibers (horse hair) much = shorter and with a similar stick. The wife and I made one during half = time during the superbowl this year(I'm the only guy I know who asks his = wife whos who and whats what in televised sports) . OK it took longer = than that, but not that much. I would like to make another one, all I = have to do is find Buck's or Crazy's ramuda and harvest the manes and = tails . ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BFBA72.45F845C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mr Kanger was kind enough to give instructions on making cordage with = a=20 couple of sticks, but he assumed you have some nice long strings to = start with.=20 Cordage can be constructed with fibers (horse hair) much shorter and = with a=20 similar stick. The wife and I made one during half time during the = superbowl=20 this year(I'm the only guy I know who asks his wife whos who and whats = what in=20 televised sports) . OK it took longer than that, but not that much. I = would like=20 to make another one, all I have to do is find Buck’s or Crazy's = ramuda and=20 harvest the manes and tails <G>.

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BFBA72.45F845C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 11 May 2000 00:42:33 -0500 =3D) No offense taken Larry. I'll end my contribution to the discussion with that. Who knows, mebbe = one of these years I will run into some folks around a fire somewhere. = I certainly hope to. Well, it's late, and I reckon I'll shut down for the evening. God = bless all, and good night. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry = pendleton > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:24 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis >=20 >=20 > Todd, > That last paragraph was not aimed at you personally. Just blowing = off > more steam. > Pendleton > -----Original Message----- > From: larry pendleton > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 6:47 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis >=20 >=20 > Todd, > I really hadn't intended to make anymore comments on this=20 > subject, but one > point you made is at the center of what riles me the most. That=20 > is the fact > that most rendezvous are touted as being a " Pre 1840 Primitive = Rendezvous > ", and after you drive untold hours, you get there and the doins=20 > is complete > with hot dog stands powered by propane stoves, there are folks walking > around everywhere wearing blue jeans and sneakers (even though = primitive > dress is required ), and some, but not all the traders are peddling = flea > market junk and foreign made trinkets that don't have anything to do = with > the Fur Trade. The point you made about, if a event is pre-1840=20 > then stick > with it, is right on. > I really didn't intend to stir up a firestorm with my comments.=20 > Honest I > didn't. I just don't understand why everytime someone makes a=20 > comment about > things not being as they should at a lot of rendezvous they get = ripped. I > know everyone's perspective on what is authentic and appropriate is > different, and I respect that. I know that everyone doesn't feel the = need > to be as hard core as others, but at the first comment about the lack = of > authenticity at rendezvous, we get labeled as Nazis, Wannabees, = Fashion > Police, and ridiculed as being able to talk the talk but not able to = walk > the walk even though most of you wouldn't know Dennis or me if we=20 > bit you on > the butt. > With that I'll shut up, for now anyway. > Pendleton > -----Original Message----- > From: Todd > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:06 PM > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis >=20 >=20 > Yes and no. Keep in mind that we see the historical records of the = adult > survivors. Childhood injuries and disease were quite another=20 > story. Child > mortality was extremely high in centuries past, and still is in some = parts > of the world. >=20 > That said, I've seen this argument before, only it was at an SCA=20 > event, and > the more-authentic-than-thou crowd were annoying. They'd have=20 > been less so > had they been adhering to the level of authenticy they were = browbeating > others about, but that's another issue. They DO have a=20 > legitimate point to > make. If you goal is to accurately depict a previous time, then=20 > do as much > as you can. Don't fudge it if you can avoid it. > At the same time, those who can approach that level, understand=20 > that some of > us ain't there yet. I'm not. I'm trying, but I'm not there. > If completely accurate re-enactment is not your goal, fine and = dandy. > As I understand the AMM, they (I'm not a brother, I hope to be = somewhere > down the road, but I have a LOT to learn, and much to do) are = dedicated to > studying and preserving the lifestyles of those who came before. = Mayhaps > our revered ancestors would have made do with nylon were it available. > Don't know. I DO know it was NOT there. So, if what you want is to > attend the anything goes vous, enjoy! Have a grand time! I can see = how > some would enjoy that, I've been to one, and I have to admit I had a = good > time. I stuck with my blankets and hides instead of an air mattress > though, and my flint and steel instead of matches. Nobody gave me any > grief, so I won't give anyone any. >=20 > So, to those who want solid authenticity, help others like me to = learn. > Teach us what to work on without ripping on us for HONEST mistakes. > Those who don't want that level of authenticity, understand where = the > others are coming from. If an event is billed as pre-1840,=20 > stick with it. > If you DON'T want to do that, I'd suggest not going. There's plenty = of > shoots that don't stick to the pre-1840 rule. >=20 > Sorry to preach, specially being a greenhorn, and a flatlander (I live = in > Missouri, it don't get much flatter I reckon, 'cept maybe Kansas=20 > =3D), but as > I said, I saw this kinda feud when I did medieval re-enactment. =20 > It ruined > the events for everyone, and soured me toward something I had enjoyed. >=20 >=20 > Todd >=20 > > >Any broken bones? They probably set wrong and you're a cripple. > > This is bullshit!!! No one is saying we are running around > > with original > > bodies and outfits. Some of us are saying that the more=20 > authentic to the > > original equipment you are, the more you can accurately recreate the > > past--and the more you can learn. > > I don't know when tooth filling started, I've seen it in > > teeth from the > > late Vicotorian era. Major surgery has been done without killing = the > > patient since at least 1000 BC. Most folks who had bones broken > > managed to > > get them set OK-too many healed fractures in the osteological = record. > > I've been shot, stabbed, beaten and broken too many times > > to believe your > > nonsense. Like anyone with a lick of sense, I know that it=20 > ain't what the > > docs put in you that pulls you through--its what you can find = inside. > > LongWalker c. du B. > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bobbie Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 11 May 2000 00:29:03 -0600 Ole wrote: >Bobbie, >Don't let them get to you, Who pushed the "HOT BUTTON"anyway? Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful. It seems to have escaped everyone else on this list. As I said previously, I have always just deleted these things. This time, that rude comment about "leaving" really got to me, and I thought, and still think, that should be clarified. I belive that an apology is owed. But, obviously, since it doesn't seem to matter one way or the other to most of the folks here, I will leave of my own accord. As I said, I sure don't want to be where I'm not wanted. I said in my original response to that uncalled for and haughty demand, there are many things in my life which others have no way of knowing. To judge me and others in such a dismissive way is just low. There are times when I think people should know the results of their actions and words, and this is one of them. Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames. Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that it is all gone. Gone. Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos. Those people can't afford to lose anymore. They have so little. So, while you all enjoy your superiority, and your sociopathic joy of "riling" people up, there are others suffering. I prefer to spend my time with people who have hearts and compassion. I and several others I've met at Rendezvous have physical handicaps that prevents us from being as perfect as all of you. I still desired to learn what I could, and to do the best that I can. No more. I no longer give a rip. I have no more desire to know about history. What I value is people who can care about more than looking down their noses at people who they perceive as beneath them. The last Rendezvous I attended, I left home with another one of the controversies raging on this list. Name calling, tantrums, etc. At the Rendezvous, there were people planning a benefit for children dying of cancer. Now, it just doesn't take a lot of sensitivity to have some sense of what is really important. History be damned. Give me humans with some soul anyday. From now on, I will proudly be with those in chrome tan who care about other human beings. So long, Bobbie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 11 May 2000 01:34:47 -0700 start with a figure 8 starting on the left hand fork going away from you take the loose long end of the string and lay above the rh fork then lift the original figure eight over the top and then rotate the fork then continue on you are started--- HAWK Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce On Wed, 10 May 2000 10:34:28 EDT GHickman@aol.com writes: > > They are carried by Smoke and Fire: http://www.smoke-fire.com. Now > that you > guys have been talking about them, I got mine out, but can't > remember how to > make it work. > > Ghosting Wolf > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: cordage Date: 11 May 2000 01:54:07 -0700 walt---hope to make it to the shining mountains in october or novenmer to hunt with my brother in law that lives in haver---we hunt the breaks and bob marshal and also up around hungry horse area will put up smoke if i get in the area--- BTW do you know tom ballard in helena--- HAWK Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 11 May 2000 07:13:51 -0400 Bill, The flying machine experiment dinnit work, eh? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: MtMan-List: Barrels Date: 11 May 2000 07:16:48 -0000 Rolling barrels is Right. That was before fork lifts, so making the shipping container also the vehicle was the ingenious way to go. YMOS Glenn Darilek Iron Burner llsi@texas.net writes: > So why did they go to the expense of crafting a barrel to hold something like nails when a wooden box > would be easier to make, and much cheaper. So what is your answer? Is it because heavy barrels could be rolled? Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Julia Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 11 May 2000 05:27:13 -0700 My heart goes to you, Bobbie, > Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful. It seems >to have escaped everyone else on this list. I was not lost on me, but I have never been made welcome on this list, so I offer very little. I have been very tempted to withdraw from this list over the list over this too. > Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames. >Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that >it is all gone. Gone. Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest >counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos. Those people can't >afford to lose anymore. They have so little. Tears fill my eyes, I want to help! What can I do? Let me know! All of this list stuff seem so unimportant when REAL tragedy strikes. If it is raising money or goods, I will do it. Give me details, I want to do what will help! Julia in Oregon ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 11 May 2000 07:29:58 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFBB1A.B5BEFE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure I was thinking at all, crawling around on the framing = wearing shorts, a tee shirt, and river sandals. Waugh! -----Original Message----- From: Ratcliff To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:41 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 Busted yer arse, didja Grandpa? You are just like me....still think = it's 1963. YMOS Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Cunningham=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 10:34 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 Thanks for the information. I think I will pass on the tool. = Right now I'm sitting here in ice packs - fell off the barn and really = screwed myself up. Nothing serious I think, just lost lots of skin and = picked up some dandy bruises. -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com = Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 =20 Bill, =20 I've not done much but observe luzets. The technique is the = basis for various forms of tube weaving by having circular areas defined = by two to many pegs on which the thread is worked around. It could be = called crocheting in the round. Isn't this pretty closely related to = some tatting techniques? =20 Someone who has used luzets may have a differing experience, = I've given it little attention because it appeared to me too much like a = chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools make, or the closing stitch on = dog food bags) where if any one thread breaks you lose the entire = length. I've always considered it decorative. =20 =20 John... =20 =20 At 07:19 AM 5/10/00 -0600, you wrote: =20 Wow! Thanks for the information! I am printing this and = keeping it. Actually, I do carry a small coil of what we called (as = kids) and I think it still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this = is, I've never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff from = the fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It sounds like = you have really worked this stuff out. What do you think of Buck's new = cordage tool? Bill =20 -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com = Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) =20 Bill, =20 I see this differently. =20 Why would you ever need a strand of sinew much over = 12" long? Nice if you can get it but 6" works. =20 Certainly not for sewing, splicing a bowstring is = readily done; & sinew is self gluing when used for serving strings, = points and fletchings. =20 Electrician's shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) = is handy in long lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to use = it in long lengths? If you don't heat weld the knots, they come undone. =20 For threads, snares, lines and every other kind of = such -- many other materials are useful as cordage, horse hair, bark, = intestines, vines, weeds, hides; all kinds of stuff makes cordage. In = todays mountains no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling = wire &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure it's fair to use = what you find, so much we find is different. Field expedient drop = spindles can be readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother would = have taught -- those born to the period. =20 Rawhide and sinew can be made to seize tighter and = bind more securely than any nylon fastening. =20 =20 How does a coil of nylon improve survivability over = a small wad of easily replaced sinew pieces? Sinew comes free with = meat, guts, hide, bone and fat; other handy survival items. =20 At best artificial sinew is a convenience. It is = not demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes for which it is = used. It offers no particular survival advantage other than = convenience. =20 =20 I've used it but, could never find a real = justification for it. I haven't been able to find my spool of it (1 = spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years now. Must have figured = I wouldn't be needing it when I put it away last. =20 I use linen for convenience. I have a spool of = unwaxed 4 strand twist. For fine sewing I split lengths to two threads = and re-spin the thread on the turned drop spindle I use at home. If I = need a heavy thread I untwist and spin together as many strands as is = appropriate in lengths suitable to the work. You can buy the thread in = varying numbers of strands, in left or right hand twist, on each spool. = I find it easiest to have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in reworking). = Wax it as you work. =20 =20 If I need 5, 6, or ? strand -- I make it. Sewing is = slower if the thread is too long. 36" of thread is only needed when = doing a full saddle stitch. For all other sewing threads are best cut = and used in shorter lengths. Use a second thread if needed, the work = will progress with greater ease when the thread isn't getting constantly = tangled. =20 I have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 = 1/4" +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on the trail has = made the one ball last for years. I have a small wad of sinew as well = for the things it can do linen and nylon cannot,. =20 =20 A convenient rock, or stick, or whatever (?) can = serve to spin your thread. A made drop spindle is nice to have at home. = A spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the same, useful if you = really need to make a lot of thread. =20 At some point it is instructive to acquire some flax = (or any other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making thread and = heavier cordage from the beginning. Braiding is another cordage skill. = Spun materials can be re-spun and/or braided as best suits the work. =20 Cordage is critical to survival. From thread to = rope the skills acquired are complimentary and equally necessary. A = set of skills nearly as important as fire. Cordage can ease making fire = if all you have is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand drill. =20 The convenience of artificial sinew is seductive. = Using it risks not learning all the lessons required for one to be = certain. It is about being absolutely certain. =20 John... =20 Note: the spools of thread I refer to are the large = commercial ones about 4" long and 3" in diameter. =20 =20 =20 At 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote: =20 I was watching that antiques roadshow program = one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked = nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed = him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, = which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy = just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true = survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take = care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is = typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you = carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small = coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical = authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some = cases, your budget) depended on it? Bill C =20 =20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFBB1A.B5BEFE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not sure I was thinking at all, = crawling=20 around on the framing wearing shorts, a tee shirt, and river sandals.=20 Waugh!
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Ratcliff <rat@htcomp.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Artificial Sinew (was saws)

Busted yer arse, didja Grandpa?  You are = just like=20 me....still think it's 1963.
YMOS
Lanney
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Bill=20 Cunningham
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, = 2000 10:34=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Artificial=20 Sinew (was saws)

Thanks for the information. = I think I=20 will pass on the tool. Right now I'm sitting here in ice packs - = fell=20 off the barn and really screwed myself up. Nothing serious I = think, just=20 lost lots of skin and picked up some dandy bruises.
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
T= o:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, May 10, 2000 5:46 PM
Subject: Re:=20 MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was = saws)

Bill,

I've not done much but observe = luzets.  The=20 technique is the basis for various forms of tube weaving by = having=20 circular areas defined by two to many pegs on which the = thread is=20 worked around.  It could be called crocheting in the=20 round.  Isn't this pretty closely related to some = tatting=20 techniques?

Someone who has used luzets may have a = differing=20 experience, I've given it little attention because it = appeared to me=20 too much like a chain stitch (like the awl-for-awl tools = make, or=20 the closing stitch on dog food bags) where if any one thread = breaks=20 you lose the entire length.  I've always considered it=20 decorative. 

John...


At 07:19 AM = 5/10/00=20 -0600, you wrote:
Wow! Thanks = for the=20 information! I am printing this and keeping it. = Actually, I do=20 carry a small coil of what we called (as kids) and I = think it=20 still is, squidding line in my pouch. Strange this is, = I've=20 never really used it. Strong as hell, round woven stuff = from the=20 fishermen on the coast of Maine. But thanks, John. It = sounds=20 like you have really worked this stuff out. What do you = think of=20 Buck's new cordage tool?
Bill
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
T= o:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:30 AM
Subject: = Re:=20 MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was = saws)

Bill,

I see this = differently.

Why would=20 you ever need a strand of sinew much over 12"=20 long?  Nice if you can get it but 6"=20 works.

Certainly not for sewing, splicing a = bowstring=20 is readily done; & sinew is self gluing when = used for=20 serving strings, points and = fletchings.

Electrician's=20 shooting line (aka, artificial sinew) is handy in = long=20 lengths -- BUT -- how often do you really need to = use it in=20 long lengths?  If you don't heat weld the = knots, they=20 come undone.

For threads, snares, lines and = every=20 other kind of such -- many other materials are = useful as=20 cordage, horse hair, bark, intestines, vines, weeds, = hides;=20 all kinds of stuff makes cordage.  In todays = mountains=20 no one is ever very far from a handy hunk of baling = wire=20 &/or twine which can serve many needs, I figure = it's=20 fair to use what you find, so much we find is=20 different.  Field expedient drop spindles can = be=20 readily fashioned and would be a skill a mother = would have=20 taught -- those born to the period.

Rawhide = and sinew=20 can be made to seize tighter and bind more securely = than any=20 nylon fastening. 

How does a coil of = nylon=20 improve survivability over a small wad of easily = replaced=20 sinew pieces?  Sinew comes free with meat, = guts, hide,=20 bone and fat; other handy survival items.

At = best=20 artificial sinew is a convenience.  It is not=20 demonstrably superior to real sinew for the purposes = for=20 which it is used.  It offers no particular = survival=20 advantage other than convenience.   =

I've=20 used it but, could never find a real justification = for=20 it.  I haven't been able to find my spool of it = (1=20 spool lasts a lifetime) in better than 15 years = now. =20 Must have figured I wouldn't be needing it when I = put it=20 away last.

I use linen for convenience.  = I have=20 a spool of unwaxed 4 strand twist.  For fine = sewing I=20 split lengths to two threads and re-spin the thread = on the=20 turned drop spindle I use at home.  If I need a = heavy=20 thread I untwist and spin together as many strands = as is=20 appropriate in lengths suitable to the work.  = You can=20 buy the thread in varying numbers of strands, in = left or=20 right hand twist, on each spool.  I find it = easiest to=20 have one spool of unwaxed (for ease in = reworking).  Wax=20 it as you work. 

If I need 5, 6, or ? = strand --=20 I make it.  Sewing is slower if the thread is = too=20 long.  36" of thread is only needed when = doing a=20 full saddle stitch.  For all other sewing = threads are=20 best cut and used in shorter lengths.  Use a = second=20 thread if needed, the work will progress with = greater ease=20 when the thread isn't getting constantly = tangled.

I=20 have a prepared ball of heavily waxed thread (1 = 1/4"=20 +/- dia., in my possibles, the little I've needed on = the=20 trail has made the one ball last for years.  I = have a=20 small wad of sinew as well for the things it can do = linen=20 and nylon cannot,. 

A convenient rock, = or=20 stick, or whatever (?) can serve to spin your = thread. =20 A made drop spindle is nice to have at home.  A = spinning wheel is a higher tech answer to do the = same,=20 useful if you really need to make a lot of = thread.

At=20 some point it is instructive to acquire some flax = (or any=20 other spinable/twistable fiber) and try making = thread and=20 heavier cordage from the beginning.  Braiding = is=20 another cordage skill.  Spun materials can be = re-spun=20 and/or braided as best suits the = work.

Cordage is=20 critical to survival.  From thread to rope the = skills=20 acquired are complimentary and equally=20 necessary.   A set of skills nearly as = important=20 as fire.  Cordage can ease making fire if all = you have=20 is wood: a bow drill is easier to use than a hand=20 drill.

The convenience of artificial sinew is = seductive.  Using it risks not learning all the = lessons=20 required for one to be certain.  It is about = being=20 absolutely certain.

John...

Note: the = spools=20 of thread I refer to are the large commercial ones = about=20 4" long and 3" in = diameter.



At=20 08:50 AM 5/9/00 -0600, you wrote:
I was = watching=20 that antiques roadshow program one time and a = guy=20 brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really = looked nice=20 and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the = antique=20 guy showed him that it was factory tanned = leather, sewed=20 with artificial sinew, which he explained was a = hi-tech=20 modern product. You could see the guy just = wither. But=20 it brought to mind a couple of questions. In = true=20 survival situations, would you be able to obtain = enough=20 sinew to take care of whatever it might be that = you'd=20 need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" = long or=20 less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would = you carry=20 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or = rather,=20 perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which = is=20 infinitely long? Historical authenticity is = great and a=20 fine goal, but what if your life (or in some = cases, your=20 budget) depended on it?
Bill=20 C


Use it up,=20 wear it out, make do, or do without.
John = Kramer =20 <kramer@kramerize.com>=20 =
<= /BODY> ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFBB1A.B5BEFE00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 11 May 2000 07:33:36 -0600 It worked fine! Until I hit the concrete. -----Original Message----- >Bill, > The flying machine experiment dinnit work, eh? >D > >"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 11 May 2000 09:33:15 -0400 Bill I would say it was lack of lift due to a slow takeoff speed. Next time start nearer to the peak of the roof and run full tilt to the edge.. Might be the ticket.... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Susan Gilbert" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 11 May 2000 08:35:35 -0500 (CDT) On Thu, 11 May 2000 01:34:47 -0700, hawknest4@juno.com wrote: >start with a figure 8 starting on the left hand fork going away from you >take the loose long end of the string and lay above the rh fork then lift >the original figure eight over the top and then rotate the fork then >continue on you are started--- That is a perfect description of how to get a lucet cord started. I have been trying to scan in my handout for demos, but I'm having trouble today. I'll keep trying and make it available to whoever wants it. Sue Gilbert 6 Beaver Camp sgilbert@avalon.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 11 May 2000 07:53:16 -0600 Bobbie, I wasn't going to say anything, but I changed my mind. Dont Go! you have as much right to be here as anybody. Ole ---------- >From: Bobbie >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis >Date: Thu, May 11, 2000, 12:29 AM > >Ole wrote: > >>Bobbie, >>Don't let them get to you, Who pushed the "HOT BUTTON"anyway? > > Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful. It seems >to have escaped everyone else on this list. > > As I said previously, I have always just deleted these things. This >time, that rude comment about "leaving" really got to me, and I thought, >and still think, that should be clarified. I belive that an apology is >owed. But, obviously, since it doesn't seem to matter one way or the other >to most of the folks here, I will leave of my own accord. As I said, I >sure don't want to be where I'm not wanted. > > I said in my original response to that uncalled for and haughty demand, >there are many things in my life which others have no way of knowing. To >judge me and others in such a dismissive way is just low. There are times >when I think people should know the results of their actions and words, and >this is one of them. > > Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames. >Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that >it is all gone. Gone. Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest >counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos. Those people can't >afford to lose anymore. They have so little. > > So, while you all enjoy your superiority, and your sociopathic joy of >"riling" people up, there are others suffering. I prefer to spend my time >with people who have hearts and compassion. > > I and several others I've met at Rendezvous have physical handicaps >that prevents us from being as perfect as all of you. I still desired to >learn what I could, and to do the best that I can. No more. I no longer >give a rip. I have no more desire to know about history. What I value is >people who can care about more than looking down their noses at people who >they perceive as beneath them. > > The last Rendezvous I attended, I left home with another one of the >controversies raging on this list. Name calling, tantrums, etc. At the >Rendezvous, there were people planning a benefit for children dying of >cancer. Now, it just doesn't take a lot of sensitivity to have some sense >of what is really important. History be damned. Give me humans with some >soul anyday. From now on, I will proudly be with those in chrome tan who >care about other human beings. > > So long, > > Bobbie > > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis Date: 11 May 2000 09:23:15 -0700 Dear List Members... For what my opinion is worth, if we can not let this dog (topic) die, at least give up the subject line using the term "Nazis." It is an extremely offensive term, and one to which, I at least, take particular umbrage. Additionally, while I do appreciate to a degree, the sensitivity of some of our list members, as expressed by the material below between Julia and Bobbie, I respectfully suggest that such comments are better directed off list as between the interested parties and not to the list at large. This list is for a dedicated purpose, and while humor and venom often seem to creep (creep hell, it flows like lava) in to our conversations, I would think it a better practice to keep the personal comments personal and off the list. Just my thoughts. Regards, Paul ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:27 AM > My heart goes to you, Bobbie, > > > Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful. It seems > >to have escaped everyone else on this list. > > I was not lost on me, but I have never been made welcome on this > list, so I offer very little. I have been very tempted to withdraw > from this list over the list over this too. > > > Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames. > >Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that > >it is all gone. Gone. Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest > >counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos. Those people can't > >afford to lose anymore. They have so little. > > Tears fill my eyes, I want to help! What can I do? Let me know! > All of this list stuff seem so unimportant when REAL tragedy strikes. > If it is raising money or goods, I will do it. > Give me details, I want to do what will help! > > Julia > in Oregon > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 11 May 2000 08:33:18 -0600 Thanks a lot. -----Original Message----- >Bill >I would say it was lack of lift due to a slow takeoff speed. Next time start >nearer to the peak of the roof and run full tilt to the edge.. Might be the >ticket.... >D > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws) Date: 11 May 2000 10:29:26 -0400 Bill, Anytime... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Un-shod Horses. Date: 11 May 2000 07:36:13 PDT Angela, I have not encountered any sources(journals, letters) that describe someone setting or pulling a shoe. However, trade lists and invoices show shoes, nails, and shoeing tools being sent to the Rockies. I will admit that the vast majority of equines went un-shod, most likely from necessity, not choice. There was demand for shoes though, or they could not have justified their weight, when trade items could have been packed in their place. For a few quick references, you can use the searh tool on Dean's site, type in the word "shoes," and you will get the documentation needed. As for my personal experience riding mules. I keep them shod as most of my riding is done via gravel road here in Oklahoma for lack of un-fenced property, and designated equestrian trails. We do not have enough snow or ice usually to cause snow or ice build-up on their hooves. However friends that elk hunt with their mules in Colorado always pull the shoes before going. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: Reply from the "Nazi" Delete now if you are thin skinned Date: 11 May 2000 10:45:59 -0400 Hello Camp. I wrote this privately to a listmemeber, but I think the list outta read it... And if you keep calling me a nazi, fine, I may have to heard your asses on a train. Snipped for content... " I would have left the entire subject alone, cause I really don't care if someone clothes themselves head to toe in naug skins and ride around in a golf cart covered with a skin and call it a horse... What fired me up is when I was referred to as aan "authenticity nazi" I have organized several events that were tightly juried and have been a member of even more jury commities. And it always ends up about the same.. We get photos and camp descriptions by the box, well invariably we get some that are pure, flatland buckskinners (yes, this meant to be derogatory).. And whenever we send a rejection along with suggestions of what needs to be left at home or changed (always nicely worded cause if they went to the trouble of going thru jury, you would think they were open to suggestion to improve their gear and camps some) invariably we get letters or phonecalls accusing the organizer/committee to be tightassed elitist nazi's.. It does set me off. As it did on the list.. I will put my camp and gear up to anyone's scrutiny. I started as a chrometan buckskinner, but I have worked hard to improve my gear, which is a never ending process and someone who would rather whine and call me a name to two deserves and will get my full brunt. I go to several local 'voos around here a year, and camp the way I camp, and others camp the way they do, no conflict, no harm , no foul.. Hell, they are my friends. I don't give advice on gear unless asked, period. And I have no qualms about going over to a neighbors camp, sit in a slat chair and partake of the local brew...Them that know me can tell you that if I am called a nazi by one of these folks, it is purely trying to get a rise outta me. But because you get rejected from a juried event or don't get invited to a AMM doins doesn't mean we are elitist nazi's. We are doing it they way we want to do it, and if you conform to our camp standards, then you can play too. Or if someone sees potential in a person, we don't really care what he wears, that we can fix over time..(AMM) What is inside is what counts. But don't expect to go to a juried event or AMM doins and drag 6 tons of shit in your pickup, and set up a "ronnyvoo" camp..... Won't happen/Period." Dennis Miles AMM 1622 Hiveranno Party Chief , Doc Newell Party Ohio 937-996-0201 my phone # for you that have emailed me personally with some nasty stuff. Call me, we will make arrangements to get on the grond sometime... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Julia Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 11 May 2000 07:58:18 -0700 I do apologize, that was a message meant to be sent off list. May peace be with you all, Julia >Dear List Members... > >For what my opinion is worth, if we can not let this dog (topic) die, at >least give up the subject line using the term "Nazis." It is an extremely >offensive term, and one to which, I at least, take particular umbrage. > >Additionally, while I do appreciate to a degree, the sensitivity of some of >our list members, as expressed by the material below between Julia and >Bobbie, I respectfully suggest that such comments are better directed off >list as between the interested parties and not to the list at large. > >This list is for a dedicated purpose, and while humor and venom often seem >to creep (creep hell, it flows like lava) in to our conversations, I would >think it a better practice to keep the personal comments personal and off >the list. > >Just my thoughts. Regards, Paul >----- Original Message ----- >From: Julia >To: >Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 5:27 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Authenticity Nazis > > > > My heart goes to you, Bobbie, > > > > > Thanks, Ole, for acknowledging that what was said was hurtful. It >seems > > >to have escaped everyone else on this list. > > > > I was not lost on me, but I have never been made welcome on this > > list, so I offer very little. I have been very tempted to withdraw > > from this list over the list over this too. > > > > > Tonight I'm mourning the fact that my hometown is going up in flames. > > >Two weeks ago, I saw my childhood home, and tonight I read the words that > > >it is all gone. Gone. Now the fire is spreading into one of the poorest > > >counties in the nation, including two Indian Pueblos. Those people can't > > >afford to lose anymore. They have so little. > > > > Tears fill my eyes, I want to help! What can I do? Let me know! > > All of this list stuff seem so unimportant when REAL tragedy strikes. > > If it is raising money or goods, I will do it. > > Give me details, I want to do what will help! > > > > Julia > > in Oregon > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: Dennis`s camp Date: 11 May 2000 11:14:56 -0400 Walt, If Dennis takes a big camp it usually consist of a buff robe, two wilde blankies, a jug to sip, a gourd for water, a cloth bag for food. The big camp is usually when his pretty wife is along. For himself, depending on temperature, the buff robe or one blanket. On a rare occasion a diamond accompanies them. They eat well and always have some to share, mighty fine jerky, or hard home made sausage, cheese, depending on temp and event a nice chunk of hump ribs. For a week long AMM camp it might take two trips on foot to carry in his camp. Two trips usually indicate he took his trade goods. "he a excellent knife and axe maker" If ordering a knife from him be sure to order a sheath, he loves to make them. are usually bark tanned. Dennis has the skills and ability to survive comfortable with very little. Oh yes a brass goose bay kettle sometime accompanies him. Can take a squirrel in the woods find plants and end up with a stew that melts in your mouth. If you haven`t guessed by now, Dennis is a very good friend of mine. He`s not as much of a butthead as people mistake him for. He has a correct camp and expects others around him to also have a correct camp. Most of the AMM members want to see improvement if your not correct. At no time was criticism ever given me. ONLY when ask how could I improve my camp was suggestions given. They were given politely by those who I ask, thorough explanations were given I would like to suggest any who want to leard more about the fur trade subscribe to the Tomahawk & Longrifle mag. which is written by AMM members and published by the same. I`m not an AMM member, just have quite a few friends who are members. If you can go into an AMM camp and be correct, then you can go into any fur trade camp in this country and shine . > Hello John, > So what does D. camp look like? Walt > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hunt" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:57 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage > > > > Dennis, that paddle is used to propel your canoe, not stir up s--t. > > > > To those who don`t know Dennis, his camp is just as he talks, extremely > > correct. He has what it takes to make a comfortable camp for his wife and > > himself. You must remember everyone's level of comfort is different. > > > > Dennis also has the skills, ability, and knowledge to make do with whats > at > > hand. > > > > > > > > > > PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good, > when > > I > > > am a mind to.. And the invitation still goes, I would like to get on > > the > > > ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton) > > > D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage Date: 11 May 2000 11:17:10 -0400 DAMN IT DENNIS, HONESTLY I DIDN`T TELL HIM > Dennis, you forgot to mention the tiny teddy bear, the incense, prayer bells > and so forth. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: D Miles > To: ; > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:35 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage > > > > Walt Wrote: > > > So what does D. camp look like? > > > > > > Walt, > > Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing > > like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available. And nada > when > > it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a > > canteen usually. My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in > > reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by > > myself, with Gwen, in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned > > where. What did you have in mind? > > Dennis > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:D. camp Date: 11 May 2000 10:10:44 -0600 Hello John...errrr D. Getting on the ground. You did not give me a very detailed description of your camp. Just a few things you are carrying. BTW how big is New Madison, Ohio. And what mountains do you set your camp in? I for one would like to know more and after all this list is dedicated to American Mountain Man education is it not? Walt Park City, Montana ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 12:35 PM > Walt Wrote: > > So what does D. camp look like? > > > Walt, > Like a camp, a oilcloth tarp over the top if it is a pouring or snowing > like a banshee, or no cloth if natural shelter is available. And nada when > it's nice. A couple a blankets or the robe. A tinned brass kettle and a > canteen usually. My gun, bag and haversack laying around somewhere in > reach.A jug at some AMM doins. Nothin fancy. It is like that if I am by > myself, with Gwen, in a big public doins or in the middle of no damned > where. What did you have in mind? > Dennis > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: cordage Date: 11 May 2000 10:14:06 -0600 Hi Hawk, I know the breaks from the 60's and also hunted Sun River up into the Bob back then before it got to crowded. I have taken 2 bear and several elk out of the Hungry Horse area. We hunted Spotted Bear and Wounded Buck area. Yes I know Tom Ballard. Let me know if the square cordage stretches. Walt Park City, Montana ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:54 AM > walt---hope to make it to the shining mountains in october or novenmer > to hunt with my brother in law that lives in haver---we hunt the breaks > and bob marshal and also up around hungry horse area will put up smoke > if i get in the area--- > > > BTW do you know tom ballard in helena--- > > HAWK > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dennis`s camp Date: 11 May 2000 10:53:26 -0600 Hello John, thank you for your thoughtful reply and doing it would out blustering and bullying things around. I would be interested in meeting D. on the ground. On orginial ground occupied by the American mountain men during their time of glory. I have access to such a camp. As the Booshway of Clark Bottom Rendezvous I would have a hard time placing D. in the purely authentic for the time period camp based upon the limited information you both have provided. The use of the gourd for instance would place D. in the camp section I camp it because after meeting and talking with Bill Cunningham and his friends at Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous over the years. I grew 4 gourds last year and have incorporated them in my camp asit is based on the 1836/1836 camp of Jim Bridger and is late enough in the period to be represented. Gourds would not have been present in the initial years 1807-1825. The Pony Trader period may be a different matter as pointed out to me by Bill Cunningham and his friends. The intercourse grew stronger between the north and south rockies over the years. I have made the trip myself several times. Enough to be able to picture it all along in my mind. I do not think D. camp can be considered a big camp. On the contrary to me so far it reads as a light summer camp. And not a single tool is mentioned. Trips of 2 or more times is not uncommon by footmen working up the river bottoms like the Missouri, Yellowstone, North Platte and the Wind River for the beaver men who packed trade good. I make classic northern plains knife sheaths myself. You talk about D. as having the skills and ability to survice comfortable with very little. A squirrel won't feed a man in these Rocky Mountains I know about. Do you live in Ohio also? What time period and geographical location is your camp? This is good educational information for everybody. Thanks again. Walt ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 9:14 AM > Walt, If Dennis takes a big camp it usually consist of a buff robe, two > wilde blankies, a jug to sip, a gourd for water, a cloth bag for food. The > big camp is usually when his pretty wife is along. For himself, depending on > temperature, the buff robe or one blanket. On a rare occasion a diamond > accompanies them. They eat well and always have some to share, mighty fine > jerky, or hard home made sausage, cheese, depending on temp and event a nice > chunk of hump ribs. For a week long AMM camp it might take two trips on foot > to carry in his camp. Two trips usually indicate he took his trade goods. > "he a excellent knife and axe maker" If ordering a knife from him be sure to > order a sheath, he loves to make them. are usually bark tanned. > > Dennis has the skills and ability to survive comfortable with very little. > Oh yes a brass goose bay kettle sometime accompanies him. Can take a > squirrel in the woods find plants and end up with a stew that melts in your > mouth. > > If you haven`t guessed by now, Dennis is a very good friend of mine. He`s > not as much of a butthead as people mistake him for. He has a correct camp > and expects others around him to also have a correct camp. Most of the AMM > members want to see improvement if your not correct. At no time was > criticism ever given me. ONLY when ask how could I improve my camp was > suggestions given. They were given politely by those who I ask, thorough > explanations were given > > I would like to suggest any who want to leard more about the fur trade > subscribe to the Tomahawk & Longrifle mag. which is written by AMM members > and published by the same. I`m not an AMM member, just have quite a few > friends who are members. If you can go into an AMM camp and be correct, then > you can go into any fur trade camp in this country and shine . > > > > > > Hello John, > > So what does D. camp look like? Walt > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Hunt" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 9:57 AM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List:was saw now its cordage > > > > > > > Dennis, that paddle is used to propel your canoe, not stir up s--t. > > > > > > To those who don`t know Dennis, his camp is just as he talks, extremely > > > correct. He has what it takes to make a comfortable camp for his wife > and > > > himself. You must remember everyone's level of comfort is different. > > > > > > Dennis also has the skills, ability, and knowledge to make do with whats > > at > > > hand. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS.. It does my heart good to know I can still ruffle feathers good, > > when > > > I > > > > am a mind to.. And the invitation still goes, I would like to get > on > > > the > > > > ground with any one of ya's. ('Cept mebby Pendleton) > > > > D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > > > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > > > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > > > "Knowing how is just the beginning" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: louis.l.sickler@lmco.com Subject: MtMan-List: Gourds Date: 11 May 2000 11:11:12