From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton Date: 01 Dec 2001 07:03:51 -0700 Wynn, What delightful books Ruxton's are. Many researchers use his books for some of thier work, but lately one part of his writting has come to their attention, how he records his subjects conversations. Some people think that the style he uses when having his people talk in his books is exagerated. And that what they were really using was a southren slang. I don't know. His books were made to be read for the enjoyment of his audiences and probably not for any historical research. I enjoy his writing and feel that he has done alot to promote the west as it was- wild and adventureous. His death is what I think a tragic ending to a rich lived life (he died in St.Louis, on his was back to a place he loved, the americn west). Another writer who share the same time frame and adventures (and style) is Francis Parkman. If you have not read any of his, try it. mike. p.s. I live on the northern edge of where he traveled and it is always a good adventure to retrace his steps here! Gretchen Ormond wrote: > I have been reading Ruxton’s Wild Life in the Rocky Mountains down > loaded from Dean’s wonderful site. I find myself curious about what > brought Ruxton to Mexico and why he went to the mountains. Also how > long afterward did he write his story dwon? Other than he was there in > 1846-47 instead of pre 1840 is there any other weaknesses to his > accounts? In short does anyone have some information about Ruxton? > > Wynn Ormond > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: Bitteroot timber sale Date: 01 Dec 2001 10:16:47 -0600 1. BITTERROOT: ADMINISTRATION TRYING TO SLAM THE DOOR ON PUBLIC PARTICIPATION The Chief of the Forest Service is working behind the scenes with the Bush Administration to eliminate the public appeals process on the largest timber sale pending in the country -- a proposed 181 million board feet salvage logging timber sale on the Bitterroot National Forest in western Montana. Please contact Forest Service Chief Dale Bosworth and tell him to follow the law and retain the appeals process for the Bitterroot and all other national forest projects: http://www.wilderness.org/takeaction/?step=2&item=883 BACKGROUND In November 2001, Chief Bosworth asked Mark Rey, the under-secretary of Agriculture who oversees the Forest Service, to co-sign the decision on the Bitterroot. If Rey signs the decision, it would eliminate the opportunity for the 2,500 people and organizations who commented on the timber sale to file any appeals. This salvage logging sale would be the largest in Forest Service history, and allows for more timber to be pulled from the Bitterroot than was taken off the Forest in the last 15 years combined. **But having Rey sign the decision would also set a terrible precedent, potentially allowing the Forest Service to avoid appeals of controversial decisions *anywhere* on our country's National Forests.** TAKE ACTION Please write Chief Bosworth by December 9 from http://www.wilderness.org/takeaction/?step=2&item=883 and ask him to: - Withdraw his request that Agriculture Under-Secretary Mark Rey sign the Record of Decision on the Bitterroot Burn Area Recovery Plan. - Not circumvent the Forest Service appeals process. Send your comments to: Forest Service Chief Dale Bosworth c/o Forest Service Northern Region Public and Governmental Relations P.O. Box 7669, Missoula, MT 59807 EMAIL: emc@fs.fed.us FAX: 202-205-8517 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton Date: 02 Dec 2001 02:11:08 EST Read Lewis Garrard's Wah-To-Yah and the Taos Trail. He wrote about the same places at the same point in time. His nearly identical descriptions of mountain man idiom should put to rest any notions about Ruxton having made-up their speech. Comparing Ruxton's non-fiction stuff with Garrard's book makes for a fascinating and telling picture of the southern Plains and Rockies in the mid-40s, John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton Date: 02 Dec 2001 05:59:18 -0800 A good look at the whole subject of the mountain man lingo is: The Mountain Man Vernacular: Its Historical Roots, Its Linguistic Nature, and Its Literary Uses; by Richard C. Poulsen; Peter Lang Publishing, Inc., New York 1985; ISBN 0-8204-0197-8. B'st'rd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton Date: 02 Dec 2001 18:52:33 -0700 That's what i was gonna say! Todd > A good look at the whole subject of the mountain man lingo is: > > The Mountain Man Vernacular: Its Historical Roots, Its Linguistic > Nature, and Its Literary Uses; by Richard C. Poulsen; Peter Lang > Publishing, Inc., New York 1985; ISBN 0-8204-0197-8. > > B'st'rd > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 http://tetontodd.tripod.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls Date: 02 Dec 2001 19:28:44 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:28 PM > > capt., > i must correct you about BAKER'S video; Clint, You can sure try but at my age I don't correct too easy. Well I do if I'm wrong but this time I don't think so. If you watch the video again you will see him mixing in some powder (not liquid dye) in to the linseed oil. It's been a couple months since I watched the video but as I recall the piece of linen he used had been dyed with walnut hulls prior to the painting and I think he mentions that but perhaps not. In any case it's pretty hard to mix a water dye like Walnut hull dye with an oil. > the waxed canvas had to be used as it was most likely > cheaper than beeswax; as for documentation as you said > it may be difficult to find. Well let's start with wax. What kind other than bee's wax was there? I believe paraffin is a petroleum based wax and the period is a bit before petroleum. but i'm sure some > eastern pioneers waxed ponchos for rain as the east > varies about 40-75% moisture. And how can you be sure? Do you have some documentation or are you just speculating because of your aversion to getting wet? Different times, different standards of comfort and what is tolerable. That's a dangerous mistake to make, assuming that because your common sense says to do it, you would do it today) that it was done then. Common knowledge back then said blood letting was a good and sovereign treatment for most everything. Do we do it today? They thought different than we do. and all mountain men > came from an eastern heritage for the most part. > somebody had to wax a cloth since they moved so > regularly in trapping; And just where are they going to get wax in the Rockies? Remeber that the european honey bee is where bee's wax comes from, it's not native to North America and pretty much came west with civilization. And how many accounts have you read of the Mt. Men treating their canvas shelters (if they had any) with wax of any kind? fronzen and wet canvas is no > fun. i know i hear those quote about they all slept > under deadfalls, yet in their eastern homelands they > would be vary wet; plus the damp gear. Yup, that's the way it really was. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:off to hunt Date: 02 Dec 2001 19:43:15 -0800 Hawk, Got back tonight empty handed and pooped. Not empty handed for not trying. This morning I climbed a small mountain and circled around a big buck and a couple does feeding in the middle of a 200 acre wheat stubble field to get down wind and above. I got to where I needed to be, lost faith that I had actually done it and that they would still be there and one doe spotted me at about 150 yards. So much for that hike. Last night was a howler in the canyon we hunted. I was about ready to take a chance on a big doe when a sudden 70+ mph wind storm came through knocking down dead trees and my composure. Missed. In fact I missed a lot this past couple weeks! I either got to learn to get closer or get better at shooting farther. Anyway I am dead tired. Hope you have good hunting too pard. YB&MOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: MtMan-List: Roaches Date: 02 Dec 2001 21:34:52 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02AE_01C17B79.2D7E5D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know when horse hair and porcupine roaches were first worn = by Plains and mountain tribes? ------=_NextPart_000_02AE_01C17B79.2D7E5D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone know when = horse hair and=20 porcupine roaches were first worn by Plains and mountain=20 tribes?
------=_NextPart_000_02AE_01C17B79.2D7E5D80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Roaches Date: 03 Dec 2001 06:36:03 -0500 --------------4B715F7AE9070513DA006D21 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might want to look at this problem too......roaches were made of deer hair and turkey beards. Linda Holley Douglas Hepner wrote: > Does anyone know when horse hair and porcupine roaches were first > worn by Plains and mountain tribes? --------------4B715F7AE9070513DA006D21 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might want to look at this problem too......roaches were made of deer hair and turkey beards.

Linda Holley

Douglas Hepner wrote:

Does anyone know when horse hair and porcupine roaches were first worn by Plains and mountain tribes?
--------------4B715F7AE9070513DA006D21-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: MtMan-List: "Metis" ??? Date: 03 Dec 2001 07:18:30 -0600 If you happen to be Metis (especially French/Native), it is pronounced Me-tiss, but if you say it that way up here, the response may well be in FRENCH! Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls Date: 03 Dec 2001 10:10:34 EST I'm not the Capt. but walnut hull dye, bought through a trappers supply is a powder. The Hulls have been ground. Joe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Re Hunting Shirt Sewing Date: 03 Dec 2001 10:30:05 -0800 Wynn asked: Is it important to keep all the hides with the head in the same position before cutting out or is it alright to rotate the leather? How many strands of lenin thread are best to sew with? Or should I use artificial sinew? (Sorry I just couldn't resist that one.) Sorry to say but this wont be the last time you will here about this project. Dear Wynn I have made several leather shirts using common sense and observation of tailored cloth shirts, but read my note at the bottom before continuing. I've posted these notes before so this is a rehash of stuff already in the archives. My directions apply to a pullover, not an open-front hunting shirt, so you will have to extract the points of use to you from this long positing. Good Luck Pat Quilter Randy Bublitz has explained some sewing tips as follows: I tend to make a 'kit', then put it together. For instance, I made a punch out of an old fork. I cut most of the handle off, then sharpened the tines with a file. I take a pre cut piece of leather and score a line along the edge to be sewn . I align my 4 prong punch along the line and strike (4 holes). Place fork in last hole, strike again (3 more holes), etc...... This leaves me a nice straight line of evenly punched holes. I then take two dull pointed needles and thread with a piece of waxed linen thread. I tie the ends, so I have a loop with 2 needles on it. I bring the needles equidistant from the knot. held apart you have a needle in each hand, with a double string in between with the knot in the middle. To start a stitch pass one needle through the first hole and pull knot up to the hole. Now you have a needle on each side. pass each needle through the next hole from opposite sides, repeat , etc.... This is called a saddle stitch. It looks good, and is very strong. Don't do a run with one needle, and then catch up with the other.... for a good lock stitch do each hole at a time. Once you get the rythm down it goes quick enough Hardtack's sewing method is the way to do it, and works well with (real) sinew too (the pieces being a foot or so long depending on your source, but otherwise, handled the same). Mostly, I lay the two leather pieces together, sewing inside out, so the resulting seam will be to the inside, and punch my holes thru both pieces at once, so they automatically align. A single awl instead of a fork also works OK. A soft board or bed of cork for the awl to poke into is helpful. You can punch a few inches worth of holes, sew them before you lose your place, and continue punching. The way I make a simple pullover shirt is as follows. I think the same directions would work for a open-front hunting shirt, but you would allow for a wider piece in the front for overlap. However I have NOT tried such a shirt myself. : --Select two skins, one front and one back, and orient in the direction of the original animal (shoulders matched to your shoulders). For brain tanned, the flesh side traditionally goes in. The usual wedge shape should hopefully cover your torso. This puts the thicker areas front and back with the thinner areas along the sides. The head-end being up, usually matches the skin's shape to your shoulders etc, for the best fit. --Examine a commercial shirt, and note how the seams from neck hole to shoulders are placed somewhat forward of the center of the garment. Note also, the slant, of the shoulders, taking account of your own shoulders. --After establishing where the skins seem to cover you best, using clamps, staples, or an assistent, establish the shoulder seams, and where the neck hole will fall. You will now have to start cutting, always a momentous step, but this procedure minimizes risk. Turn the skins inside out (flesh side out) and sew the two shoulders along the marked lines. It is not actually necessary to cut yet, or at least, leave some margin in case of adjustments. You probably will need to make a minimum cut in each skin for the neck hole, keeping in mind you can always trim more off, but it's annoying to put anything back. --Sew the two shoulder seams, about six inches each, on each side of the neck hole. You should now have a poncho-like garment you can actually drape over your head. Put it on, and assess the neck hole and shoulder seams. Trim the neck opening reasonably well so the shirt lays on you. Clamp the leather together under your arms, and start establishing the side seams. Go slowly however, make sure the shoulder fit is good. It's a small amount of sewing to re-do at this point. --Mark the side seams, leaving some slack for pulling it off, and don't make the arm holes too tight. Here is where you will note that for most comfortable fit the shoulder seam will be slightly front of center. In particular, mark where the sides come together most naturally while wearing the shirt, as it will not lie flat when you take it off to sew it. --Sew a few inches of side seam, and recheck the fit. NOTE: you are sewing inside out, and it is not necessary to trim the leather all the way back to the seams initially, in case you have to let it out some. --When confident of fit, sew the sides all the way past your belt line, but you can leave the last few inches open below the waist. --You should now have a tunic with no arms. Check the fit again and make any adjustments. Again, allow for slack under the arms. --You may apply a collar or cape now or later, using period patterns for suggestions. When you do the collar, you will of course have to complete establishing the neck opening. --Trim the leather back to within about 1/4-inch of your seams, ONLY AFTER you are quite confident that it fits well. To attach the arms as noted below, you will need to work right-side out. --The arms take more leather than you might think. Ideally, you will have a large, thin skin with enough for two arms, or even two small skins. Put the thin part inside the elbow. Wrap the skin around your arm and match the upper diameter to the armholes of your tunic, keeping in mind you need to be able to raise your arms overhead. Usually, sewing the arms so they poke out at right angles is OK, Again, check how commercial shirts do it. The arms should be quite tapered. --The arms will tend to bunch up lengthwise as you wear it, so make the sleeves as long as you can. Fold back the excess into cuffs. Long cuffs can be let down as partial gloves, to handle hot pans, etc. --As before, the seam along the arms is butt-seamed and sewed inside out. Usually, you need only one seam, along the inside, unless having to piece together smaller remnants. --To connect the arms to the tunic, I have had good results by lap-seaming the arms inside the tunic. By putting the arms inside the tunic, and saddle stitching the overlapped area, you get a smooth join, AND the excess material left on the tunic that hangs over the shoulders can be trimmed into a bit of decorative fringing. --I recommend against long fringe on sleeves and down the side, as it catches on stuff, drags in your food, and bunches up underneath you when sleeping. You can fringe the lower edge of the tunic for decoration if you like. --I can offer no particular documentation for the resulting pullover shirt, other than it uses basic European designs, was also seen in northern tribes where wind proofing is an issue, and of course uses primitive materials. The general pattern resembles what you would get if you duplicated a period cloth shirt with available leather and the simplest construction. Most references to "hunting shirts" describe a long open-front leather shirt, worn over a cloth shirt, sort of like a leather capote (without the hood). The pullover shirt described here is more of a primary shirt that you would add outer layers to as required. Good luck Pat Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Roaches Date: 03 Dec 2001 15:35:13 EST In a message dated 12/3/1 4:32:00 AM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: <> I've never seen a turkey beard version but have seen (and worn a few) large numbers of the deer hair and porcupine guard hair variety. Some people have porcupines and some have turkeys . . . Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ellen Gossett Subject: Re: MtMan-List:off to hunt Date: 03 Dec 2001 18:26:55 -0500 Sorry you didnt have any luck.I shot one doe with my flinter opening day of muzzleloading season and got another Sat but I cheated on that one shot it from the laundry room. Deer are taking us away in Ga 8s the limit. Hope ya do better next sojourn. JIM rtlahti wrote: > Hawk, > > Got back tonight empty handed and pooped. Not empty handed for not trying. > This morning I climbed a small mountain and circled around a big buck and a > couple does feeding in the middle of a 200 acre wheat stubble field to get > down wind and above. I got to where I needed to be, lost faith that I had > actually done it and that they would still be there and one doe spotted me > at about 150 yards. So much for that hike. > > Last night was a howler in the canyon we hunted. I was about ready to take a > chance on a big doe when a sudden 70+ mph wind storm came through knocking > down dead trees and my composure. Missed. In fact I missed a lot this past > couple weeks! I either got to learn to get closer or get better at shooting > farther. Anyway I am dead tired. Hope you have good hunting too pard. > > YB&MOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:off to hunt Date: 03 Dec 2001 17:38:26 -0600 filled all 4 of my tags ===2 bucks and 2 does---one with my hawken and 3 with my new underhammers---robin had a good time i thank---got him 3 shots---no deer frank got 3 shots ---I got 4 shots and 4 deer steve got 3 shots and got 3 deer---his son saw lots of deer but was hunting big hornd---he passed on a small 10 point ---told him he should have taken a shot---the 10 came past me just out (125 yds thru the brush) of range and went toward mat he saw it at abouy 30 yds but didnt shoot---biggest one i got this season was a nice even (4 X 4) western count 8 point eastern---weighed about 150 lbs have had a good season---saw lots of deer mostly does---deer here just starting to go into rut---been too hot and weather relly strange---saw lots of spike deer ---saw dirty point one time at about 150 yds---didnt take a shot--hope to get him next year---will be heading home in about a week---got a bunch of underhammers to build---have 50 recievers in from the foundry--- best to you pard--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce Home of "Old Grizz Products" & "the Arkansas Under Hammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone:1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce On Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:43:15 -0800 "rtlahti" writes: > Hawk, > > Got back tonight empty handed and pooped. Not empty handed for not > trying. > This morning I climbed a small mountain and circled around a big > buck and a > couple does feeding in the middle of a 200 acre wheat stubble field > to get > down wind and above. I got to where I needed to be, lost faith that > I had > actually done it and that they would still be there and one doe > spotted me > at about 150 yards. So much for that hike. > > Last night was a howler in the canyon we hunted. I was about ready > to take a > chance on a big doe when a sudden 70+ mph wind storm came through > knocking > down dead trees and my composure. Missed. In fact I missed a lot > this past > couple weeks! I either got to learn to get closer or get better at > shooting > farther. Anyway I am dead tired. Hope you have good hunting too > pard. > > YB&MOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:off to hunt Date: 03 Dec 2001 16:20:54 -0800 Thanks Jim. Probably won't go after deer again till next year. We're thinking of going after elk one last time this month but haven't firmed up our plans yet. At least they are bigger targets! Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 3:26 PM > Sorry you didnt have any luck.I shot one doe with my flinter opening day of > muzzleloading season and got another Sat but I cheated on that one shot it from > the laundry room. Deer are taking us away in Ga 8s the limit. Hope ya do better > next sojourn. JIM > > rtlahti wrote: > > > Hawk, > > > > Got back tonight empty handed and pooped. Not empty handed for not trying. > > This morning I climbed a small mountain and circled around a big buck and a > > couple does feeding in the middle of a 200 acre wheat stubble field to get > > down wind and above. I got to where I needed to be, lost faith that I had > > actually done it and that they would still be there and one doe spotted me > > at about 150 yards. So much for that hike. > > > > Last night was a howler in the canyon we hunted. I was about ready to take a > > chance on a big doe when a sudden 70+ mph wind storm came through knocking > > down dead trees and my composure. Missed. In fact I missed a lot this past > > couple weeks! I either got to learn to get closer or get better at shooting > > farther. Anyway I am dead tired. Hope you have good hunting too pard. > > > > YB&MOS > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:off to hunt Date: 03 Dec 2001 16:24:04 -0800 My congratulations Hawk. Maybe next year. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Cc: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 3:38 PM > filled all 4 of my tags ===2 bucks and 2 does---one with my hawken and 3 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls Date: 04 Dec 2001 00:38:24 EST In a message dated 12/2/01 7:23:53 PM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << Well let's start with wax. What kind other than bee's wax was there? >> Hmmmm.... seems to me there was a "bay berry" wax up in New England. Grew on some brushy, evergreen like plant, and ya had to boil the berry to get the wax off em. Sure makes a nice candle, don't think I'd do canvas wid it.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:off to hunt Date: 04 Dec 2001 00:45:19 EST In a message dated 12/2/01 7:37:36 PM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << Last night was a howler in the canyon we hunted. I was about ready to take a chance on a big doe when a sudden 70+ mph wind storm came through knocking down dead trees and my composure. Missed. >> Haaaaa.... if we didn't have bad luck, we'd have no luck at all! I managed to poke a Blacktail, button buck, with my 50cal flinter, and it was the only deer I saw in a couple days of rain on this side of the Cascades. The critter was so small, I think it might have had milk marks on it's mouth...... It sure does taste rather pleasant though. I'll save a drum stick for the feast at Nisqually..... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Midwest Rendezvous web page Date: 04 Dec 2001 08:41:52 -0500 For those of you that are interested, the web page for the NMLRA Midwest Rendezvous 2002 is up and running at the following URL... http://www.members.tripod.com/mwpr2002/ Take a gander at it, and I hope to meet more of you there in June :) Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Kid's website: Exploration, the Fur Trade, & HBC Date: 04 Dec 2001 08:01:47 -0700 The fine folks who brought you www.canadiana.org (a great website for reading all kinds of original documents, from Alexander Mackenzie's published journal, to the private journal of Alexander Henry the Younger) have now put up a website for kids entitled Exploration, the Fur Trade, & HBC. It's well worth checking out. http://www.canadiana.org/hbc/intro_e.html Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls/wax from Date: 04 Dec 2001 10:01:41 -0800 Sure makes a nice candle, don't think I'd do canvas wid it.... > > Ymos, > Magpie Magpie, That's what I always thought the wax was used for, giving candles a pleasant scent. Did they make enough of this "bayberry" wax to make anything else? BTW, how did you make your "oil cloth" and where did you get the recipe? YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:off to hunt Date: 04 Dec 2001 10:08:09 -0800 Magpie, It's quite a drive for you but you would not have believed all the opportunities over in the Palouse we had (if we could only have hit something ). Sunday morning I bet we saw no less than 50 deer as we drove out to the farm we were going to bird hunt on. Of course the deer were across a valley, up in a wheat field and on land we couldn't easily or legally hunt. But we had permission to hunt plenty of land that held plenty of deer, the problem being they were so skittish that it was hard to get anywhere near them. And you have to be careful what you shoot at or you'll come home with drum sticks! Hope to see you at Nisqually. And congratulations on your Blacktail. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls/wax from Date: 04 Dec 2001 17:33:34 EST In a message dated 12/4/01 9:55:26 AM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << Did they make enough of this "bayberry" wax to make anything else? >> Other than everyday use, I don't think so. From the note below, it sure took a lot of berries to make a pound of wax.... Ymos Magpie Bayberry wax, also known as "bayberry tallow" or "myrtle wax," is the rarest and most prized of all candle waxes. Bayberry wax that is 100% pure and natural, has a warm, earthy fragrance reminiscent of newly mown hay, and dries to a lovely olive green color. It takes about 15 pounds of bayberries to make just one pound of bayberry wax! In the novel The Swiss Family Robinson, by Johann David Wyss, the shipwrecked family made candles using the wax from wild bayberries. Early American colonists also used the wax from bayberries to make candles. According to tradition, a bayberry taper candle burned all the way down on Christmas Eve or New Year's Eve brings good luck for the coming year. As the saying goes: "A bayberry candle burned to the socket brings food to the larder and gold to the pocket." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls/wax from Date: 04 Dec 2001 17:43:48 EST In a message dated 12/4/01 9:55:26 AM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << BTW, how did you make your "oil cloth" and where did you get the recipe? >> I'll repost my last on how I did the oil cloth below if you didn't get it. I got the recipe from Glenn Richardson, Black River Party, and Baker does it the same way with red iron oxide.... <> Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls/wax from Date: 04 Dec 2001 15:59:45 -0800 Thanks Magpie. I got the original post. I just wanted the comment about Baker's video and his recipe to come from another source. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 2:43 PM > > In a message dated 12/4/01 9:55:26 AM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: > > << BTW, how did you make your "oil cloth" and where did you get the recipe? > > >> > > I'll repost my last on how I did the oil cloth below if you didn't get it. I > got the recipe from Glenn Richardson, Black River Party, and Baker does it > the same way with red iron oxide.... > > > < sheet...about 220 threads per inch. It squared up at 7.5'X7.5', and both > sides were painted with a mix of boiled linseed oil and yellow iron > oxide....about a half gallon and 1 lb of oxide was used. It took a couple > days to dry to the touch in the sun, and a week or two in the shade to loose > most of the oil smell. I hemmed the edges, and reinforced the corners with > the scraps to make the tarp a bit more tear resistant. > > I'm pleased with the end result.....it's light, waterproof, fairly strong, > and didn't cost much to make. As far as flame proof....I took several scrap > samples and held a match to the edge, expecting an explosion. The edge would > burn, but if I turned it edge up, like a candle wick, the flame would go out. > My thinking is the iron oxide acts somewhat as a flame retardant...or at > least slows the burn rate way down. I've seen untreated canvas burn faster, > and with a bit of common sense, I'd use it for any camp. > > I just picked up a pound of red iron oxide, a nice piece of 9X9, coarse "home > spun" looking cotton canvas, that I'll hand sew into my next tarp when the > rain stops....mebbe six months from now.>> > > Ymos, > Magpie > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Blanket Capotes Date: 05 Dec 2001 02:58:46 +0000 Howdy friends, I'm trying to upgrade my capote. What I have now is a capote cut on the square and I understand that it is cut wrong for pre-1840 fur trade. Anybody out there have any primary sources on the correct cut for a fur trade era capote. Or is there an original in a collection somewhere that I can look at so I can see how they were cut in the period in question. Oh yeah, the one I've been wearing is made out of a Lachine 4pt. Thanks ahead, Don in the Ohio Country _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Monte Holder Subject: MtMan-List:pigments Date: 05 Dec 2001 09:23:17 -0600 I have watched the Baker video several times and he does paint the oil cloth with linseed oil and iron oxide pigment. He is dying a shirt or something in a pot with walnut hulls. What I'd like to know is where you all get the red or yellow iron oxide pigments. Monte Holder ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List:pigments Date: 05 Dec 2001 10:15:35 -0800 (PST) --- Monte Holder wrote: >. What I'd like to know is where > you all get the red or yellow > iron oxide pigments. > > The Iron Oxide Pigments can be purchased at a hardware store . Look for concrete or grout colorant. It comes in a box and is pure iron oxide for reds yellows browns and black. You could also get blue or green, but it probably contains other metal oxides, and I don't think those colors would have been cheap enough to us on a large scale in the past. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Bridger Book list from Lanney Date: 05 Dec 2001 13:02:50 -0800 (PST) Hi Lanney! I tried to reply to your letter about the Book List, but got a message that no such address (amm1585)exists. All I received from you was a garbled mess, no list. At 40K, it must be a pretty comprehensive list, and I look forward to seeing it. There is a bit of snow on the ground up here in Extreme North Texas (Wyoming to the Flatlanders) so it would be a good time to catch up on some reading. It appears to be a looong winter coming. I thought your offer to fetch some que for Laura was a wonderful gesture, she must be a very special lady! Now if only someone could come up with a plan to get some of our National Beer of Texas up here to Extreme North Texas, Life would be wonderful. Seems as though the rest of the Republic has forgotten us! Please resend the Book List if possible, I know there are a lot of books I haven't read on our subject. Thanks, DOG, Hiv.#617 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mitch Post Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blanket Capotes Date: 05 Dec 2001 13:18:21 -0800 (PST) --- darlene secondine wrote: > I'm trying to upgrade my capote. ....Good idea-far to many late1800/early1900 capotes being worn at events > Anybody out there have any primary sources on the > correct cut for a fur > trade era capote. Or is there an original in a > collection somewhere that I > can look at so I can see how they were cut in the > period in question. .....To my knowledge, there are no existing early capotes. A more tailored look is what you are after. I use a pattern from....can't remember..but it's call the "old tailor pattern"?? It has about 6-8 variations in the package. Not sure if this is "totally" correct, but seems to be far more acceptable than the fringed,box-cut,blanket-stitched styles seen. We had this a discussion on this sometime last year. You might do an archive search for more info. Respectfully, Mitch Post/Red Dog Trading Co. in SW Arkansas > Thanks ahead, > Don in the Ohio Country > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:pigments Date: 05 Dec 2001 17:34:46 EST In a message dated 12/5/01 10:16:45 AM, chrissega1@yahoo.com writes: << The Iron Oxide Pigments can be purchased at a hardware store >> You might also want to look for an artist/potter supply store. I got the red iron oxide in Helena, and the yellow in Tacoma...long story... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:pigments Date: 05 Dec 2001 18:33:44 EST Monte, The easiest place to get the pigments is from an artist or pottery supply. Occassionally some paint stores can/or will get it for you. Magpie and I got some from the Archie Bray Pottery supply here in Helena, Montana. They had several grades and colors to choose from. Bead Shooter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blanket Capotes Date: 06 Dec 2001 02:43:09 +0000 Thanks Mitch, I've browsed through the archives of 2000 and ain't found the topic yet but will keep looking. Is there a search engine for the archives that I don't know how to utilize yet? Also, lookin' at Miller paintings and other period artists trying to figure out what's really the common cut for pre-1840 capotes.If you happen upon that 6 pattern set your talking about, it sounds like it would be worth looking at. Thanks for the tip. The Mountain Man Sketchbook has a Hudson Bay Capote with pleats like frock coats of the period, I wonder how common that cut was on the Upper Missouri? Your friend, Don >From: Mitch Post >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blanket Capotes >Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:18:21 -0800 (PST) > > >--- darlene secondine >wrote: > > > I'm trying to upgrade my capote. > ....Good idea-far to many late1800/early1900 capotes >being worn at events > > > Anybody out there have any primary sources on the > > correct cut for a fur > > trade era capote. Or is there an original in a > > collection somewhere that I > > can look at so I can see how they were cut in the > > period in question. > .....To my knowledge, there are no existing early >capotes. > A more tailored look is what you are after. I use a >pattern from....can't remember..but it's call >the "old tailor pattern"?? It has about 6-8 variations >in the package. Not sure if this is "totally" correct, >but seems to be far more acceptable than the >fringed,box-cut,blanket-stitched styles seen. > We had this a discussion on this sometime last year. >You might do an archive search for more info. > Respectfully, Mitch Post/Red Dog Trading Co. > in SW Arkansas > > > > Thanks ahead, > > Don in the Ohio Country > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >===== >"RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Jewell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blanket Capotes Date: 05 Dec 2001 23:54:38 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- > (snip)...Is there a search engine for the archives that I don't > know how to utilize yet?...(snip) Hi Don, If you use the MSN Websearch it will return a lot of past messages from this list. What may be a down side is that it will also give you all the regular web search results with it. Not perfect but it works to some extent. YMHS, Tim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls Date: 05 Dec 2001 22:29:54 -0800 (PST) thanks capt. for the correction about baker's video using a walnut dyed cloth covered by linseed oil and the ochre. i did some digging on google and found some interesting data for those interested in the wax possibility. check: http://www.triplemoon.com/wickswax.html to condense this, there was as some have stated a bayberry wax; expensive. beeswax was also for the rich. whales and the tallow in butchering were also used extensively by the common colonials. waxed candles were manufactured as early as 1825, and another method revolutionized the industry in 1831. this text is lengthy but worth reading. ALSO; and this is speaculation with high probability, grease and mixtures of one of the waxes could have been used. like a lot of common things we do, for them it may have not been nessasary to write about it. for example the caped hunting shirt has few patterns in existence except in canvas by TOWNSEND[?} company in canada's east, or pictures by early artists. or, let's use 'FIREARMS, TOOLS, AND TRAPS OF THE MOUNTAIN MEN'; the writeR talked about the weight of the trap drowning the beaver. with the methods known, and many ineffient; there would have been a lot of wring outs and pull outs by hefty adult beaver(50 lbs. and up). SOME BODY WAS EVIDENTLY YARNING HIM. most beaver trappers know it takes a lot to keep a fighting beaver under to drown for 20 minutes. i use this as an example, not everything is written, or copied correctly. i will do extensive research on this wax or tallow method of waterproffing in the immediate future. thanks for your wealth of knowledge and your time. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: [scalpdance] Fw: We need your help we have been robbed Date: 06 Dec 2001 09:45:55 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:35 AM Sisters and brothers I just recieved this shocking message. Am going to ask for assistance with this matter. If all would keep their ears and eyes open I`m sure my friends would appreciate the help. This occured in Reiley Ohio, Oxford Ohio area, Miami university area, Hamilton Ohio, Cincinnati Ohio, this is all southwest Ohio. They are a border town with Indiana. Their were quite a few custom made pieces. All were above average guns. Several smooth bores, along with rifled guns. If anyone hears anything please contact the Butler county sheriff office in Ohio. It would be nice if some of you would forward to other lists. Dennis, this is Mike and Kathy Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 2:45 AM John, Please keep an ear open for any one selling alot of muzzel loaders. Someone busted our front door open and took all of our guns but 2. Im just sick. I know you can get the word out I have emailed Mike too. I cant sleep, I feel safe anymore. Will tell you the rest later. Love Ya Kat and Mike ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:19 PM John, It is hard to take, we keep going to the gun cabnets and seeing broken glass and no guns. They have striped us of a part of our lives that alot of people dont understand. That is why I ask you for help and I want to THANK the people that are helping us. I cant express how thankful we are for all the mountain men we call our friends. My heart is just SICK!!!!!!! Here are the guns that are missing not all of them are Pre 1840. Marlin 22 octagon barrel lever action Marlin 22 bolt action 22 mag. bolt action with a gold trigger 16ga. shot gun Pensylvania rifle 50 cal. John this one was the 1st one Mike ever had Hand made Trade gun 62 cal dark walnut, late lancaster style (1st one mike and Dave built together) CVA Hawken 50 cal. John this was the 1st one I ever had Thompson center fire Cherokee 45 cal. it has an exchangble barrel ( they didnt take the 32 cal barrel) Ky Long rifle 32 cal this one has brass studs all over it. It would stand out Thats it. Its enough isnt it? I want to thank you all again for coming to our aid. My email address is teamhoney@juno.com. Our camp names are Rusty Trap and Two Feathers I still have that lost feeling. And I dont feel safe in my own house. Thats the bad part. The only good thing about this is they didnt hurt our dog and people like all of you that are willing to help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank You With All Of Our Heart!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mike and Kat ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:pigments Date: 06 Dec 2001 08:03:16 -0700 Gene, Good to have you on board. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: GHickman@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:pigments >Date: Wed, Dec 5, 2001, 4:33 PM > >Monte, > >The easiest place to get the pigments is from an artist or pottery supply. >Occassionally some paint stores can/or will get it for you. Magpie and I got >some from the Archie Bray Pottery supply here in Helena, Montana. They had >several grades and colors to choose from. > >Bead Shooter > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: [scalpdance] Fw: We need your help we have been robbed Date: 06 Dec 2001 08:18:02 -0800 (PST) Howdy! Though it is highly unlikely that the guns will appear this far west( I would keep a sharp eye out at the spring shoot in Friendship) a description or list of the guns would be helpful. Can't keep an eye out if we don't know what to look for. Hope your friends get their stuff back, Dog, Hiv.#617 --- Possum Hunter wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Hunt" > To: "discussion" > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:35 AM > Subject: [scalpdance] Fw: We need your help we have > been robbed > > Sisters and brothers > > I just recieved this shocking message. Am going to > ask for assistance with > this matter. If all would keep their ears and eyes > open I`m sure my friends > would appreciate the help. This occured in Reiley > Ohio, Oxford Ohio area, > Miami university area, Hamilton Ohio, Cincinnati > Ohio, this is all southwest > Ohio. They are a border town with Indiana. > > Their were quite a few custom made pieces. All were > above average guns. > Several smooth bores, along with rifled guns. > > If anyone hears anything please contact the Butler > county sheriff office in > Ohio. > > It would be nice if some of you would forward to > other lists. > > Dennis, this is Mike and Kathy > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 2:45 AM > Subject: We need your help we have been robbed > > > John, > Please keep an ear open for any one selling alot of > muzzel loaders. Someone > busted our front door open and took all of our guns > but 2. Im just sick. I > know you can get the word out I have emailed Mike > too. I cant sleep, I feel > safe anymore. Will tell you the rest later. > Love Ya > Kat and Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy L Geisler > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:19 PM > Subject: Description of stolen guns > > > John, > It is hard to take, we keep going to the gun cabnets > and seeing broken glass > and no guns. They have striped us of a part of our > lives that alot of people > dont understand. That is why I ask you for help and > I want to THANK the > people that are helping us. I cant express how > thankful we are for all the > mountain men we call our friends. My heart is just > SICK!!!!!!! > > Here are the guns that are missing not all of them > are Pre 1840. > Marlin 22 octagon barrel lever action > Marlin 22 bolt action > 22 mag. bolt action with a gold trigger > 16ga. shot gun > Pensylvania rifle 50 cal. John this one was the 1st > one Mike ever had > Hand made Trade gun 62 cal dark walnut, late > lancaster style (1st one mike > and Dave built together) > CVA Hawken 50 cal. John this was the 1st one I ever > had > Thompson center fire Cherokee 45 cal. it has an > exchangble barrel ( they > didnt take the 32 cal barrel) > Ky Long rifle 32 cal this one has brass studs all > over it. It would stand > out > Thats it. Its enough isnt it? > I want to thank you all again for coming to our > aid. > My email address is teamhoney@juno.com. > Our camp names are Rusty Trap and Two Feathers > I still have that lost feeling. And I dont feel > safe in my own house. Thats > the bad part. The only good thing about this is they > didnt hurt our dog and > people like all of you that are willing to > help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Thank You With All Of Our > Heart!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Mike and Kat > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls Date: 06 Dec 2001 10:38:47 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:29 PM > > thanks capt. for the correction about baker's video > using a walnut dyed cloth covered by linseed oil and > the ochre. Clint, Your welcome and by all means watch me close too so I don't slip something by. Been known to happen. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Nancy McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: deer hides...a little off topic Date: 06 Dec 2001 14:14:53 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C17E60.60360E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Notice to all: We have just finished our second deer season [ one more to go ] here = in Iowa. As anyone knows who lives in the Eastern US of A, whitetail = deer here are as thick as ticks on a rabbit so if anyone out there is = interested in the doe hide that I just got [ or the many more that can = be had in the future ] please let me know off list and I will send = it/them the best way for just the cost of shipping.=20 The hunters here just throw the hides in a ditch and I don't have = the time to do any braintanning or any room in the freezer! It seems a = real shame to loose what can be used by my brothers. John =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C17E60.60360E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Notice to all:
    We have just=20 finished our second deer season [ one more to go ] here = in Iowa.=20 As anyone knows who lives in the Eastern US of A, = whitetail deer=20 here are as thick as ticks on a rabbit so if anyone out there is = interested=20 in the doe hide that I just got [ or the many more that = can be=20 had in the future ] please let me know off list and I will send it/them=20 the best way for just the cost of shipping. 
    = The hunters here=20 just throw the hides in a ditch and I don't have the time to do any = braintanning=20 or any room in the freezer! It seems a real shame to = loose what=20 can be used by my brothers.   = John
   =20
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C17E60.60360E00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "De Santis, Nick" Subject: MtMan-List: Brass parts? Date: 06 Dec 2001 14:49:54 -0800 Hi, I have been playing around trying to fix up a bad kit pistol I picked up cheap at a show, and I am trying to go for the older gun look. I have some ideas on browning and wood finishing, but need some input on the furniture that is brass (or silver for that matter) and how to give it that older patina (sp?). Anyway old brass looks old and brass that has just been finished looks new. How to get to the old look in less than 20 years? Thanks for any tricks you may want to share. Nick -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:20 AM In a message dated 11/20/01 5:25:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, cwebbbpdr@juno.com writes: << Hmmmm, seems like I am making a lot of comments, but I have one more if the list will allow. I don't usually say much either, but when someone new is not getting what he's really asking for, I sometimes get a case of the blabs. < I believe the wax application is very valuable in preventing future or additional rusting. It's worked that way for me. < My last action before mounting the barrel is to generously apply the hot wax to the underside or what I call the lower five flats of the barrel (the sides and three bottom flats that lie in the stock) to create just the sort of sealer you speak of. I try to redo that about once a year even though rusting isn't really that much of a problem with our low humidity. Figure it's better safe than sorry -- especially under the wood where I can't see it. I have a friend who lives in a humid climate & has a fondness for barrels in the white who uses neutral shoe polish to control rust. I recently introduced him to Break Free & he was like a kid with a new toy. < I have found remnants of bee's wax in corners and crevasses of several old original stocks and it is my belief that the wax application was a common practice of old gun makers. It's nice to get confirmation of something I'd only read about. < I have many times for extra protection in rainy weather simply smeared on a generous amount of Bore Butter. (Which I personally don't care for as a Patch lube) Don't like Bore Butter for patches either, but what I use it for is "antiseize" on nipples, drums, & touch hole liners. I have one rifle & pistol set that are convertible from percussion to flint. While I don't change them often, the Bore Butter, when soaked with Mac's 13 or T/C's cleaner, allows easy removal of the liner or drum. I tried regular antiseize, but it didn't work -- Bore Butter does. Think we've 'bout covered most major aspects of browning except the (UGH!) "Hot Brown" method. Personally, I hate it! It's hard to get an even coloring & depth on a larger part. Occasionally I'll use it for a screw head if I've messed up & forgot (lost!) to slow rust it. It's hard to beat the old slow rust browning for appearance & durability. < Good luck on all your future projects, be safe, but mostly have fun!!! To you too! I would like to try Hawk's browning solution here in the dry -- maybe next project! Got 2 on the bench waiting for me right now! Ha! If'n it warn't no fun, I wou'n't do it! 8) NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass parts? Date: 06 Dec 2001 23:03:14 +0000 Hi Nick, I use Birchwood Casey's Brass Black. Follow the directions on the bottle then judiciously buff with 0000 steel wool to take it off the areas where there would be natural wear or slightly shinier brass. You'll have a patina that you find on old rifles. Good Luck, Don >From: "De Santis, Nick" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: "'hist_text@lists.xmission.com'" >Subject: MtMan-List: Brass parts? >Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:49:54 -0800 > >Hi, > >I have been playing around trying to fix up a bad kit pistol I picked up >cheap at a show, and I am trying to go for the older gun look. I have some >ideas on browning and wood finishing, but need some input on the furniture >that is brass (or silver for that matter) and how to give it that older >patina (sp?). Anyway old brass looks old and brass that has just been >finished looks new. How to get to the old look in less than 20 years? > >Thanks for any tricks you may want to share. > >Nick > >-----Original Message----- >From: NaugaMok@aol.com [mailto:NaugaMok@aol.com] >Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:20 AM >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard > > >In a message dated 11/20/01 5:25:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, >cwebbbpdr@juno.com writes: > ><< Hmmmm, seems like I am making a lot of comments, but I have > one more if the list will allow. > >I don't usually say much either, but when someone new is not getting what >he's really asking for, I sometimes get a case of the blabs. > > < I believe the wax application is very valuable in preventing > future or additional rusting. > >It's worked that way for me. > >< My last action before mounting the barrel is to generously apply the >hot > >wax to the underside or what I call the lower five flats of the barrel (the >sides and three bottom flats that lie in the stock) to create just the >sort >of sealer you speak of. > >I try to redo that about once a year even though rusting isn't really that >much of a problem with our low humidity. Figure it's better safe than >sorry > >-- especially under the wood where I can't see it. I have a friend who >lives >in a humid climate & has a fondness for barrels in the white who uses >neutral >shoe polish to control rust. I recently introduced him to Break Free & he >was like a kid with a new toy. > >< I have found remnants of bee's wax in corners and crevasses > of several old original stocks and it is my belief that the wax > application was a common practice of old gun makers. > >It's nice to get confirmation of something I'd only read about. > > < I have many times for extra protection in rainy weather simply smeared >on >a generous amount of Bore Butter. (Which I personally don't care for as a >Patch lube) > >Don't like Bore Butter for patches either, but what I use it for is >"antiseize" on nipples, drums, & touch hole liners. I have one rifle & >pistol set that are convertible from percussion to flint. While I don't >change them often, the Bore Butter, when soaked with Mac's 13 or T/C's >cleaner, allows easy removal of the liner or drum. I tried regular >antiseize, but it didn't work -- Bore Butter does. > >Think we've 'bout covered most major aspects of browning except the (UGH!) >"Hot Brown" method. Personally, I hate it! It's hard to get an even >coloring & depth on a larger part. Occasionally I'll use it for a screw >head >if I've messed up & forgot (lost!) to slow rust it. It's hard to beat the >old slow rust browning for appearance & durability. > >< Good luck on all your future projects, be safe, but mostly have fun!!! > >To you too! I would like to try Hawk's browning solution here in the dry >-- > >maybe next project! Got 2 on the bench waiting for me right now! Ha! >If'n > >it warn't no fun, I wou'n't do it! 8) > >NM > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: MtMan-List: Snowshoe treatment Date: 06 Dec 2001 17:33:00 -0700 Hello all, I'm refurbishing a pair of old snowshoes. Anyone have any suggestions as to the best kind of varnish to use on the lacing? I doubt it was used historically....what was used to help preserve the lacing or webbing? Were they greased? I guess it's possible to use pitch, but it seems that it would be quite brittle and break off. What are your thoughts? "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mitch Post Subject: MtMan-List: Killing a buffalo....... Date: 06 Dec 2001 17:35:27 -0800 (PST) Well, tomorrow morning at dawn(or close to it), I have the grand opportunity to kill a buffalo. A friend of mine here in SW Arkansas raises them. Long story short...he asked me if I "wanted" to shoot one. I thought about it for a while....about 2 seconds!! I'll be using my .62 fowler. This won't be a "hunt",but a stand shot-it's NOT in a pen,it's out in the pasture. I'm excited and nervous-I've never killed anything this big....and have yet to "make meat" with my smoothbore. Looking forward to dawn.......Mitch ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snowshoe treatment Date: 06 Dec 2001 18:19:55 -0800 Teton, The last time I refurbished a pair of "Tubbs" I used Spar Varnish in spray can form for it's ease of application and traditional usage in weather conditions on boats. I agree that it is likely not authentic but since that's probably what these snow shoes were originally treated with, I felt it appropriate to continue that type of finish. I've no idea what "primitives" might have used or even early European snow shoe users on this continent might have used. Maybe nothing, counting on the dry snow to not loosen up the lacing? YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Bridger paper/ clothing Date: 06 Dec 2001 21:21:38 EST --part1_180.4c6cc1.294181b2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A quote from Personal Narrative of James O. Pattie Page 47 We arrived at the house of the governor on the 12th......My hair hung matted and uncombed. My head was surmounted with an old straw hat. My legs were fitted with leather leggings, and my body arrayed in a leather hunting shirt, and no want of dirt about of the whole. My companions did not shame me, by being better clad. But all these repulsive circumstances not withstanding, we were welcomed by the governor and Jacova, as kindly, as if we had been clad in a manner worthly of their establishment. Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_180.4c6cc1.294181b2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A quote from Personal Narrative of James O. Pattie
Page 47

We arrived at the house of the governor on the 12th......My hair hung matted and uncombed. My head was surmounted with an old straw hat. My legs were fitted with leather leggings, and my body arrayed in a leather hunting shirt, and no want of dirt about of the whole. My companions did not shame me, by being better clad. But all these repulsive circumstances not withstanding, we were welcomed by the governor and Jacova, as kindly, as if we had been clad in a manner worthly of their establishment.

Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_180.4c6cc1.294181b2_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass parts? Date: 06 Dec 2001 21:27:28 EST In a message dated 12/6/01 5:53:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, nick.de.santis@intel.com writes: << Anyway old brass looks old and brass that has just been finished looks new. How to get to the old look in less than 20 years? >> I think there is some stuff in the archives on this. Just handle it and it will turn and not take a year to do it. Just get your oil from your hands on it and let it work. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Killing a buffalo....... Date: 06 Dec 2001 19:23:40 -0800 (PST) Sure hope you're planning on using a solid ball-I'm afraid shot will just piss him off! I got mine with my Harper's Ferry .58, a .570 ball and about 80 grains FF black powder. I'd never shot anything that big before either(or since) Dog, Hiv#617 --- Mitch Post wrote: > > > > > Well, tomorrow morning at dawn(or close to it), I > have the grand opportunity to kill a buffalo. A > friend > of mine here in SW Arkansas raises them. Long story > short...he asked me if I "wanted" to shoot one. I > thought about it for a while....about 2 seconds!! > I'll > be using my .62 fowler. This won't be a "hunt",but a > stand shot-it's NOT in a pen,it's out in the > pasture. > I'm excited and nervous-I've never killed anything > this big....and have yet to "make meat" with my > smoothbore. > Looking forward to dawn.......Mitch > > > > > ===== > "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snowshoe treatment Date: 06 Dec 2001 21:20:30 -0700 Thanks for your thoughts my friend. I agree that most of the time the weather is cold enough that the snow stays frozen and so no treatment would be necessary. Spar in a can eh? Sounds like the ticket. Teton On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:19:55 -0800 "rtlahti" writes: > Teton, > > The last time I refurbished a pair of "Tubbs" I used Spar Varnish in > spray > can form for it's ease of application and traditional usage in > weather > conditions on boats. I agree that it is likely not authentic but > since > that's probably what these snow shoes were originally treated with, > I felt > it appropriate to continue that type of finish. > > I've no idea what "primitives" might have used or even early > European snow > shoe users on this continent might have used. Maybe nothing, > counting on the > dry snow to not loosen up the lacing? > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass parts? Date: 07 Dec 2001 01:15:39 EST In a message dated 12/6/2001 2:53:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, nick.de.santis@intel.com writes: << ...old brass looks...how to get to the look in less than 20 years? >> IIRC when I'm cleaning my rifle and the mix of BP and water gets on the brass, it gets that dark patina almost immediately, and it doesn't come off until it's polished with something like Brasso. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: deer hides...a little off topic Date: 06 Dec 2001 22:30:33 -0800 (PST) is it at all possible to get two hides from big deer skined to the ear and both hooves? i'm creating an old style war shirt and leggings and need the long legs/ oh yes the tail. could i pay you to flesh the fat off, don't worry about thin(1/8 inch and less meat. just throw them over a fence or put on a roof and let em dry good. word of warning for all of us. a taxidermist recently told me freezing hides with oxegon present causes freezer burn; they must be soaked throuroughly in water for those who use this method. freezer burn causes hard spots that can not be remedied according to the taxidermist. 2 fleshed large hides in this manner would be great, how much do you want for shipping and semi fleshing? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass parts? Date: 06 Dec 2001 23:50:34 -0700 Howdy, A fairly simple way to tarnish brass is simply wipe the brass with a dirty cleaning patch. For best results scrub the brass with oooo steel wool and lacquer thinner to remove the protective lacquer finish sprayed on at the foundry. Then as I say. wipe with the patch you just used to clean the black powder fouling out of your gun barrel. Stained glass shops stock a chemical that blackens brass came, then buff back to the color you like with the 4ought steel wool. Have fun, Old Coyote ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 07:15:20 -0800 Nick You are going to get a lot of suggestions on this one. I have made a number of new 'old' guns. Simplest methods I ever found were to use Kiwi brown shoe polish, paste type, on the wood. Works great, looks old. For the brass, after swabing the bore when shooting take the dirty patch and wipe over the brass. Won't take long and it too will look properly aged. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Killing a buffalo....... Date: 07 Dec 2001 10:40:11 -0700 many buffalo ranchers are selling "hunts" as the price of buffalo have fallen. I have shot several off horseback with bow/arrow, 45-70 and colt walker pistol, still have to it one with a lance, I have tried twice. Ave price for a 2-3 year bull is $300 to $600. don't let them con you into a $1500 animal. you can go to buffalo auctions and buy one and trailer it home or to the woods to shoot. not a real hunt unless your are horseback, then the fun begins. have insurance though joe -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mitch Post Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........ Date: 07 Dec 2001 11:45:30 -0800 (PST) This is being sent to several lists,etc.... Thanks for the good wishes,etc. from my friends. The .62 didn't "drop" this bull-2nd shot from a .270 put him down. As to the "no sport" comments...this is not a "tame" herd(I've yet to see a tame buffalo..)-this was not a penned animal-We walked out this AM into the pasture(300+ acres-trees,open areas,etc..)-identified the animal,and worked our way for a clean shot-this 2yrold bull was a cull for meat. If you think it's easy to stand real close to an entire herd of buffalo(approx. 100hd),obviously you've never done it. 'Nuff said.... All I got was the heart,liver and tongue-the hide,head and meat went to the folks that bought it. As to why the .62 didn't make the "kill"-not sure. Didn't hear the "crack" I usually do-maybe humidity(it was 98% this AM). I've not done much shooting in this part of the country yet-I'm used to hunting in Montana..LOTS dryer. I'd appreciate any input you might have-or anyone else that has something constructive to add-I'm using a patched .595ball,85gr 3f Goex. Got the big,nasty bull to kill soon....... Mitch __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ellen Gossett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 14:55:12 -0500 To dirty brass I get a wheel barrow aluminum foil paper towels a n d black powder. I put the foil in the bottom of the wheel barrow place the brass parts about 2 inches above the powder which is sprinkled on the foil lite a rolled up piece of paper towel and POOF the brass until I think it looks right. It works great!.Gentleman James IFrank Fusco wrote: > Nick > You are going to get a lot of suggestions on this one. > I have made a number of new 'old' guns. Simplest methods I ever found > were to use Kiwi brown shoe polish, paste type, on the wood. Works great, > looks old. For the brass, after swabing the bore when shooting take the > dirty patch and wipe over the brass. Won't take long and it too will look > properly aged. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 15:32:39 EST I'm glad everyone likes black brass. It looks like crap, and no original gun I've ever seen has it. All you are doing is putting a sulfide coating on it. When brass ages, it acquires a nice mellow, brownish-gold patina through normal oxidation. In other words, it just gets darker and might have a tinge of green in it. It also shows wear marks from normal usage where your hand or shoulder rubs certain areas. Any gun with black brass, other than the nosecap, is a result of a guy slopping water from the barrel all over the gun when he cleans it. Aging is an oxide coating, not a sulfide coating. The traditional way of taking the shine off new brass, mentioned in several period references, was to rub it with green hazelnut hulls. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 22:49:34 +0000 Brass Black by Birchwood Casey is a hell of a lot cheaper than wasting powder and you get to finish several rifles in a bottle. And you get to shoot the powder & ball besides.:) Don in the Ohio Country >From: Ellen Gossett >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts >Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 14:55:12 -0500 > >To dirty brass I get a wheel barrow aluminum foil paper towels a n d black >powder. I put the foil in the bottom of the wheel barrow place the brass >parts about 2 inches above the powder which is sprinkled on the foil lite a >rolled up piece of paper towel and POOF the brass until I think it looks >right. It works great!.Gentleman >James IFrank Fusco >wrote: > > > Nick > > You are going to get a lot of suggestions on this one. > > I have made a number of new 'old' guns. Simplest methods I ever >found > > were to use Kiwi brown shoe polish, paste type, on the wood. Works >great, > > looks old. For the brass, after swabing the bore when shooting take the > > dirty patch and wipe over the brass. Won't take long and it too will >look > > properly aged. > > Frank G. Fusco > > Mountain Home, Arkansas > > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ellen Gossett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 17:59:42 -0500 Ya waste your money buying that stuff.It dont take much powder and the patina is great.It just speeds up the natural process. JIM darlene secondine wrote: > Brass Black by Birchwood Casey is a hell of a lot cheaper than wasting > powder and you get to finish several rifles in a bottle. And you get to > shoot the powder & ball besides.:) > Don in the Ohio Country > > >From: Ellen Gossett > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts > >Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 14:55:12 -0500 > > > >To dirty brass I get a wheel barrow aluminum foil paper towels a n d black > >powder. I put the foil in the bottom of the wheel barrow place the brass > >parts about 2 inches above the powder which is sprinkled on the foil lite a > >rolled up piece of paper towel and POOF the brass until I think it looks > >right. It works great!.Gentleman > >James IFrank Fusco > >wrote: > > > > > Nick > > > You are going to get a lot of suggestions on this one. > > > I have made a number of new 'old' guns. Simplest methods I ever > >found > > > were to use Kiwi brown shoe polish, paste type, on the wood. Works > >great, > > > looks old. For the brass, after swabing the bore when shooting take the > > > dirty patch and wipe over the brass. Won't take long and it too will > >look > > > properly aged. > > > Frank G. Fusco > > > Mountain Home, Arkansas > > > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........ Date: 07 Dec 2001 23:06:32 +0000 Howdy Mitch, I've never killed a buffler with a trade gun before but I used to work on the Woolaroc Museum in the early '70s and I know they take a lot of killing. I'd be prone to powder up some. Maybe 110 grs. of 2F behind that ball. I normally shoot 90 grs in my trade gun with acceptable accuracy. Almost as good as a rifle at 50 yds. Good luck on the bull. Don in the Ohio Country >From: Mitch Post >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hiparoohats@yahoo.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........ >Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:45:30 -0800 (PST) > >This is being sent to several lists,etc.... > > Thanks for the good wishes,etc. from my friends. The >.62 didn't "drop" this bull-2nd shot from a .270 put >him down. As to the "no sport" comments...this is not >a "tame" herd(I've yet to see a tame buffalo..)-this >was not a penned animal-We walked out this AM into the >pasture(300+ acres-trees,open areas,etc..)-identified >the animal,and worked our way for a clean shot-this >2yrold bull was a cull for meat. If you think it's >easy to stand real close to an entire herd of >buffalo(approx. 100hd),obviously you've never done it. >'Nuff said.... > All I got was the heart,liver and tongue-the >hide,head and meat went to the folks that bought it. > As to why the .62 didn't make the "kill"-not sure. >Didn't hear the "crack" I usually do-maybe humidity(it >was 98% this AM). I've not done much shooting in this >part of the country yet-I'm used to hunting in >Montana..LOTS dryer. I'd appreciate any input >you might have-or anyone else that has something >constructive to add-I'm using a patched .595ball,85gr >3f Goex. > Got the big,nasty bull to kill soon....... > Mitch > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 23:09:26 +0000 To each his own I reckon. Don >From: Ellen Gossett >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts >Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 17:59:42 -0500 > >Ya waste your money buying that stuff.It dont take much powder and the >patina is >great.It just speeds up the natural process. JIM > > >darlene secondine wrote: > > > Brass Black by Birchwood Casey is a hell of a lot cheaper than wasting > > powder and you get to finish several rifles in a bottle. And you get to > > shoot the powder & ball besides.:) > > Don in the Ohio Country > > > > >From: Ellen Gossett > > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts > > >Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 14:55:12 -0500 > > > > > >To dirty brass I get a wheel barrow aluminum foil paper towels a n d >black > > >powder. I put the foil in the bottom of the wheel barrow place the >brass > > >parts about 2 inches above the powder which is sprinkled on the foil >lite a > > >rolled up piece of paper towel and POOF the brass until I think it >looks > > >right. It works great!.Gentleman > > >James IFrank >Fusco > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Nick > > > > You are going to get a lot of suggestions on this one. > > > > I have made a number of new 'old' guns. Simplest methods I ever > > >found > > > > were to use Kiwi brown shoe polish, paste type, on the wood. Works > > >great, > > > > looks old. For the brass, after swabing the bore when shooting take >the > > > > dirty patch and wipe over the brass. Won't take long and it too will > > >look > > > > properly aged. > > > > Frank G. Fusco > > > > Mountain Home, Arkansas > > > > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 23:20:57 +0000 Howdy Dave, Do you remember which period references? Sounds cheaper than Brass Black or Powder. Don >From: ThisOldFox@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts >Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:32:39 EST > >I'm glad everyone likes black brass. It looks like crap, and no original >gun >I've ever seen has it. All you are doing is putting a sulfide coating on >it. > When brass ages, it acquires a nice mellow, brownish-gold patina through >normal oxidation. In other words, it just gets darker and might have a >tinge >of green in it. It also shows wear marks from normal usage where your >hand >or shoulder rubs certain areas. Any gun with black brass, other than the >nosecap, is a result of a guy slopping water from the barrel all over the >gun >when he cleans it. Aging is an oxide coating, not a sulfide coating. > >The traditional way of taking the shine off new brass, mentioned in several >period references, was to rub it with green hazelnut hulls. > >Dave Kanger > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 16:34:48 -0700 Thank God, we have Kanger on this list to lead us out of the darkness. Where would we be with out his fun loving, informative, good natured input? For a fact, several of the methods mentioned will duplicate very closely the appearance of the aged oxide patina on original old brass furniture. The methods mentioned has been used by some pretty fine gun builders for restoration work of museum quality, and has been accepted by true experts who know the difference between what looks good and what looks like "crap". As for the green Hazel nut hulls, if you have a lifetime to rub the brass, it will work. I have never met a recognized gun builder that uses them to create a patina look. Since green Hazel nuts are so plentiful and easy to obtain here in the West I can't imagine why they don't see more use for oxide brass patina. But then again, what does any of us mere mortals know? Heck Dave this is your big chance at a new item to sell, crush the hulls, bottle the nectar and sell it as instant brass oxide patina. Just think of all The money you will have to support your relaxed disposition. A not so respectful, Old Coyote "Let the flames begin!" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 21:21:58 -0500 any ringside seats left? Charlie Webb wrote: > > Thank God, we have Kanger on this list to lead > us out of the darkness. Where would we be with > out his fun loving, informative, good natured input? > > For a fact, several of the methods mentioned > will duplicate very closely the appearance of the > aged oxide patina on original old brass furniture. > The methods mentioned has been used by some > pretty fine gun builders for restoration work of > museum quality, and has been accepted by true > experts who know the difference between what > looks good and what looks like "crap". > > As for the green Hazel nut hulls, if you have a > lifetime to rub the brass, it will work. I have > never met a recognized gun builder that uses > them to create a patina look. Since green > Hazel nuts are so plentiful and easy to obtain > here in the West I can't imagine why they don't > see more use for oxide brass patina. > But then again, what does any of us mere > mortals know? > > Heck Dave this is your big chance at a new item > to sell, crush the hulls, bottle the nectar and sell > it as instant brass oxide patina. Just think of all > The money you will have to support your relaxed > disposition. > > A not so respectful, > Old Coyote > > "Let the flames begin!" > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass parts? Date: 07 Dec 2001 20:57:23 -0600 black powder residu will make it look old as well as egg white---can give you many ways to age it but the best is black powder residue and usage--- nuff said--- Hawk On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:27:28 EST HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: > In a message dated 12/6/01 5:53:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, > nick.de.santis@intel.com writes: > > << Anyway old brass looks old and brass that has just been > finished looks new. How to get to the old look in less than 20 > years? > >> > I think there is some stuff in the archives on this. Just handle it > and it > will turn and not take a year to do it. Just get your oil from your > hands on > it and let it work. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "HAWK" Michael Pierce Home of "Old Grizz Products" & "the Arkansas Under Hammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone:1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 21:29:16 -0600 On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:34:48 -0700 Charlie Webb writes: > Heck Dave this is your big chance at a new item > to sell, crush the hulls, bottle the nectar and sell > it as instant brass oxide patina. Just think of all > The money you will have to support your relaxed > disposition. > > A not so respectful, > Old Coyote > > "Let the flames begin!" > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > no flames from this end pard agree with you---lots of ways to age brass---best is natural age and to start with highly polished brass it seems it will tarnisah better and faster than just brass parts with a medioker polish on it---- nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce Home of "Old Grizz Products" & "the Arkansas Under Hammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone:1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 21:23:10 -0600 TOF not the correct response---he isnt asking you about your personal preferences if he was he would have directed it in that way---I like old looking brass and have given many people the way to make new brass look old---but there is no real surefire way to get the true age look without you guessed it age---but you can dull it in many ways and brass black is not what he is looking for---hazelnuts is a area specific method---just as easy to rub the brass with a cleaning patch from the rifle after you have fired it---dulls the brass and makes it have a patenia after a time period---believe that is what the guy relly asked about--- nuff said---end of subject---and i did sign out with my whole signature block as normal--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce Home of "Old Grizz Products" & "the Arkansas Under Hammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone:1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:32:39 EST ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: > I'm glad everyone likes black brass. It looks like crap, and no > original gun > I've ever seen has it. All you are doing is putting a sulfide > coating on it. > When brass ages, it acquires a nice mellow, brownish-gold patina > through > normal oxidation. In other words, it just gets darker and might > have a tinge > of green in it. It also shows wear marks from normal usage where > your hand > or shoulder rubs certain areas. Any gun with black brass, other > than the > nosecap, is a result of a guy slopping water from the barrel all > over the gun > when he cleans it. Aging is an oxide coating, not a sulfide > coating. > > The traditional way of taking the shine off new brass, mentioned in > several > period references, was to rub it with green hazelnut hulls. > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 08 Dec 2001 04:25:29 +0000 I don't like black brass on a gun either. That's why I said buff it back "judiciously". You get (immediate) results that looks just like the old originals if you follow the instructions that I laid down in the original answer to this question. I did not say to leave it black. Brass Black is the medium of choice for antiqueing a new gun. And no I don't own any stock in Birchwood Casey. In fact, that's about the only product of theirs that I use on my guns that I build. And then only if the customer wants the NEW gun to look USED when he walks out of my shop with it. Remember,ju-dic-ious-ly: as in the use of good judgement. Now, have a party, that's the best I can explain it. Good Luck, Don in the Ohio Country >From: hawknest4@juno.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts >Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:23:10 -0600 > >TOF >not the correct response---he isnt asking you about your personal >preferences if he was he would have directed it in that way---I like old >looking brass and have given many people the way to make new brass look >old---but there is no real surefire way to get the true age look without >you guessed it age---but you can dull it in many ways and brass black is >not what he is looking for---hazelnuts is a area specific method---just >as easy to rub the brass with a cleaning patch from the rifle after you >have fired it---dulls the brass and makes it have a patenia after a time >period---believe that is what the guy relly asked about--- > > >nuff said---end of subject---and i did sign out with my whole signature >block as normal--- > >"HAWK" >Michael Pierce Home of "Old Grizz Products" & "the Arkansas Under >Hammers" >854 Glenfield Dr. >Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone:1-727-771-1815 >e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site: >http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > >On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:32:39 EST ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: > > I'm glad everyone likes black brass. It looks like crap, and no > > original gun > > I've ever seen has it. All you are doing is putting a sulfide > > coating on it. > > When brass ages, it acquires a nice mellow, brownish-gold patina > > through > > normal oxidation. In other words, it just gets darker and might > > have a tinge > > of green in it. It also shows wear marks from normal usage where > > your hand > > or shoulder rubs certain areas. Any gun with black brass, other > > than the > > nosecap, is a result of a guy slopping water from the barrel all > > over the gun > > when he cleans it. Aging is an oxide coating, not a sulfide > > coating. > > > > The traditional way of taking the shine off new brass, mentioned in > > several > > period references, was to rub it with green hazelnut hulls. > > > > Dave Kanger > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 23:40:14 EST > Thank God, we have Kanger on this list to lead > us out of the darkness. Where would we be with > out his fun loving, informative, good natured input? Charlie, If it weren't for me, you'd probably still be sitting behind an empty screen wondering why no one is posting. Now we've got lots of opinions flowing across the board. > For a fact, several of the methods mentioned > will duplicate very closely the appearance of the > aged oxide patina on original old brass furniture. Actually, ALL of the methods mentioned will blacken the brass. The key words in your statement above are "aged oxide patina." All the previous mentioned methods darken the brass by putting a Sulfide coating on it, not an Oxide coating. Naturally aged brass does not blacken, as there are NO black oxides of brass. > The methods mentioned has been used by some > pretty fine gun builders for restoration work of > museum quality, and has been accepted by true > experts who know the difference between what > looks good and what looks like "crap". "Museum quality restoration" is also an ambiguous term. It means too many things to too many different people. I have several guns that I bought from a museum as they were surplus to their collection. They are pieces of crap. One even had a rusty Dixie lock on it. When one restores a gun to original, does one restore it to look like it did when it was new, or like it's 150-300 years old? Depends on the gun, don't it? Does brass get black through normal wear and aging......I don't think so. But if that old gun is in the rafters of a barn for 100 years, subjected to manure fumes, moldy hay, changes in temperature and humidity, and various other things, then the oxide formed on the brass will react with those other chemicals in the air and deposit a new compound on the brass. However, this ain't an aged patina. It's just deterioration like the buttplates and trigger guards of dug relics do through. > As for the green Hazel nut hulls, if you have a > lifetime to rub the brass, it will work. I have > never met a recognized gun builder that uses > them to create a patina look. I believe that the book, "Thoughts on D. Boon's gun" written in the late 1800's, Harrison & Stelle, and TB Tryon all mention this method in their writings. What I said was, it dulls shiny brass. I didn't say it makes an instant patina. Obviously it works, because it was done in the field to dull down sights and hardware. Also, recognized gun builders don't know everything. Each knows things that the others don't, and there are many things used in the past that still remain to be uncovered. > Since green > Hazel nuts are so plentiful and easy to obtain > here in the West I can't imagine why they don't > see more use for oxide brass patina. Only you live in the West. There are people here from all over. As to using them, few have extensive reference libraries that would even mention this fact. Like I said, everyone don't know everything. > But then again, what does any of us mere mortals know? Mere mortals know the total sum of their education. We got A students and C students, and even the A students are still studying. > Heck Dave this is your big chance at a new item > to sell, crush the hulls, bottle the nectar and sell > it as instant brass oxide patina. Just think of all > The money you will have to support your relaxed > disposition. A bit of satire..........I like that in a man. > "Let the flames begin!" Ain't no future in it. Too many old guys get all bent out of shape and have heart attacks sitting at the computer because of high blood pressure. Each can only state his case and let the readers decide, and in the end, half will believe one guy and half the other. You disappoint me. Just a couple of weeks ago, you said you wished I would provide some input on smoothbores. Go figger!! OldFox ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 07 Dec 2001 23:48:22 EST > not the correct response---he isnt asking you about your personal > preferences if he was he would have directed it in that way---I like old > looking brass and have given many people the way to make new brass look > old---but there is no real surefire way to get the true age look without > you guessed it age--- Hawk, I didn't give my personal preferences. I merely gave a traditional way of doing it. I agree with you that age is the only way to age something. If a guy wants to have a new gun with black brass on it............then it's his gun. Maybe he oughta take a chain to the stock and hardware as well, to put some wear marks on it. Or better yet, buy one of Jack Hubbard's Butt Ugly guns. To each his own. > nuff said---end of subject---and i did sign out with my whole signature > block as normal--- Yup, that's OK. There is no ban on "commercial advertising" on this list. Maybe I'll start advertising here too, like everyone else. TOF ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 08 Dec 2001 00:45:53 EST In a message dated 12/7/01 11:52:40 AM, hiparoo@yahoo.com writes: << Thanks for the good wishes,etc. from my friends. The .62 didn't "drop" this bull-2nd shot from >> Don't dispair Mitch! I've shot moose, caribou, deer and bear with a 50cal flinter, and it's a rare thing to "drop" them. All the old reports I've read on shooting buffalo, indicates they're pretty darn tuff. On the big mean one, reload fast...... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........ Date: 08 Dec 2001 03:10:51 EST In a message dated 12/7/01 3:09:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: << I've never killed a buffler with a trade gun before but I used to work on the Woolaroc Museum in the early '70s and I know they take a lot of killing. >> A friend killed a 4 yr old bull 3 years ago with a .54 cal. Took 8 shots before it fell. He THOUGHT he was missing, but couldn't see how. Autopsy showed all 8 shots had hit vital organs. Yep! I'd say they were a might tough to kill! NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........ Date: 08 Dec 2001 03:20:52 EST In a message dated 12/7/01 3:09:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: << I've never killed a buffler with a trade gun before but I used to work on the Woolaroc Museum in the early '70s and I know they take a lot of killing. >> A friend killed a 4 yr old bull 3 years ago with a .54 cal. Took 8 shots before it fell. He THOUGHT he was missing, but couldn't see how. Autopsy showed all 8 shots had hit vital organs. Yep! I'd say they were a might tough to kill! NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........ Date: 08 Dec 2001 07:08:41 -0700 It is amazing to me how different a buffalo can react when shot. I seen a green pilgrim with a 50 cal TC knock one down and not have his get up. And then I been in chases when on foot and in a truck that took four hours in snow/rain/sleet to get him. I know of friends which have had them charge when shot- aah, just like the old days! Any time that you have a chance to go on a buffalo hunt do it. Nothing can teach you more about history than doing it. I am still amazed at how much blood a single animal can hold. But the chase, the meat and good friends can make for a experience that lasts a life time. mike. NaugaMok@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/7/01 3:09:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, > dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > > << I've never killed a buffler with a trade gun before but I used to work > on > the Woolaroc Museum in the early '70s and I know they take a lot of killing. > >> > > A friend killed a 4 yr old bull 3 years ago with a .54 cal. Took 8 shots > before it fell. He THOUGHT he was missing, but couldn't see how. Autopsy > showed all 8 shots had hit vital organs. Yep! I'd say they were a might > tough to kill! > > NM > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo Date: 08 Dec 2001 11:39:25 -0700 Joe wrote: I have shot several off horseback with bow/arrow, 45-70 and colt walker pistol, still have to it one with a lance, I have tried twice. Waugh!!! Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 08 Dec 2001 12:01:50 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_5e06.4ea5.2b30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:40:14 EST ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: > Charlie, > If it weren't for me, you'd probably still be sitting behind an > empty screen > wondering why no one is posting. Yes, Dave, my whole life is centered on a blank screen waiting for self appointed authorities like you to throw me a tid bit of their vast knowledge. Dave, you are the only one talking about a black end product from using a sulfide finish. Everyone that has submitted a method for a patina look for brass furniture has written that after the application of their favorite agent, they buff, rub, steel wool or what ever, the brass part to the desired look. The desired look and the finished part is not black! I totally agree that the finish is not a true aged oxide finish, but it can and does come very close to the look of the oxided finish. ("that does not look like crap") > Actually, ALL of the methods mentioned will blacken the brass. The > key words > in your statement above are "aged oxide patina." All the previous > mentioned > methods darken the brass by putting a Sulfide coating on it, not an > Oxide coating. I believe that this is the message we have all tried to convey. however you choose to not mention or accept the buffing part of the procedure. > "Museum quality restoration" is also an ambiguous term. It means > too many > things to too many different people. I have several guns that I > bought from > a museum as they were surplus to their collection. They are pieces > of crap. > One even had a rusty Dixie lock on it. I seldom waste time or spend my money on museum surplus if it is crap. > does one restore it to look like it did when it was new, or like > it's 150-300 > years old? Depends on the gun, don't it? Absolutely in my humble opinion! > Does brass get black through normal wear and aging......I don't > think so. > But if that old gun is in the rafters of a barn for 100 years, > subjected to > manure fumes, moldy hay, changes in temperature and humidity, and > various > other things, then the oxide formed on the brass will react with > those other >chemicals in the air and deposit a new compound on the brass. However, > this > ain't an aged patina. I agree, but that is not the question, the question was " what can be done to give brass a dulled aged look in less than a hundred years." As you said above, all of the mentioned methods will darken the brass, but not give it a true oxide finish. Buffing the sulfide finish will give a very close look to the oxide finish. Jewelers and engravers have for centuries used Liver of Sulfur to darken jewelry back grounds and lettering in engraving. After the application the piece is buffed to the desired contrast. > I believe that the book, "Thoughts on D. Boon's gun" written in the > late > 1800's, Harrison & Stelle, and TB Tryon all mention this method in > their > writings. What I said was, it dulls shiny brass. I didn't say it > makes an > instant patina. Obviously it works, because it was done in the > field to dull > down sights and hardware. Apparently you haven't tried the hull rubbing method, I have, it works to a degree, but is very slow and somewhat fugitive, it don't last long. A Sharpie pen is quicker and lasts longer, but again, is not pre 1840. >Also, recognized gun builders don't know everything. >Each knows things that the others don't, and there are > many things used in the past that still remain to be uncovered. I can't totally agree with this, Wallace G, and John B have forgotten far more about the old ways than you or I will ever know. (May John rest in peace) Both of these recognized gun builders wrote of the merits of liver of sulfur for an aged look for brass. I do beleave however you are correct in you statement that there is still a wealth of information for researchers to uncover/discover. (my interpretation of your statement) > Only you live in the West. I spent the majority of my life in Kentucky, and I understand the fact that there are folks on this list from all over the world thats why I didn't give a method to darken brass that would be a local or be very difficult for list members to obtain. > few have extensive reference libraries that would even mention > this fact. Like I said, everyone don't know everything. Today, most everyone has access to the extensive reference (research) libraries you refer to. There is very little information that is not accessible by any member on this list if they don't mind a little work. But then again, what does any of us mere mortals know? > Mere mortals know the total sum of their education. We got A > students and C students, and even the A students are still studying. I am sure that the membership of this list are not all (A) students, but I will guarantee that regardless of an academic classification every single individual on this list are "still studying," researching and working very hard to learn everything they can about this thing we love. They wouldn't hang out on this list if they were not "still studying"! "Let the flames begin!" > Ain't no future in it. Too many old guys get all bent out of shape > and have > heart attacks sitting at the computer because of high blood > pressure. Each > can only state his case and let the readers decide, and in the end, > half will > believe one guy and half the other. Here I agree again. >You disappoint me. Just a couple of weeks ago, you said you wished I would provide some input on smoothbores. >Go figger!! You know, sometimes I am a disappointment to my self, but what I wrote about you and Bob providing some input on smoothbores was genuine. However you chose not share your experience with us, which is a shame. I must say that you are more of a disappointment to me and the list than I am to myself because of the way you sometimes communicate with this list (or any of the others you are on). Go back and read your original post on this subject. Dave, you are not God, you don't know everything about anything, but your posts sound like you think you are God and do know everything. What you say is the only acceptable way and everybody on the list is stump dumb because they don't have your education, reference/research facility or may simply disagree with you. You have a lot to share if you wanted to, but your method of presentation needs some serious scrutiny. None of us know it all, but some of us show our true ignorance by pretending we do! This format allows anyone to be anything they want to be, the choice is yours! My problem has always been I only write about what I have hands on experience with. Much of the research I have done in the past 60 years I have not personally field tested so I don't write about it, or pass it on as if it was proven fact. Again, "different strokes for different folks" Still would like to hear your input on smoothbores. But I won't beg. Once again, a respectful, Old Coyote ----__JNP_000_5e06.4ea5.2b30 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 23:40:14 EST ThisOldFox@aol.com writes:
>=20 Charlie,
> If it weren't for me, you'd probably still be sitting = behind an=20
> empty screen
> wondering why no one is=20 posting.  
 
Yes, Dave, my whole life is centered on a blank screen
waiting for self appointed authorities  like you to throw me
a tid bit of their vast knowledge.
 
Dave, you are the only one talking about a black end
product from using a sulfide finish.  Everyone that has
submitted a method for a patina  look for brass furniture
has written that after the application of their favorite
agent, they buff, rub, steel wool or what ever,  the brass
part to the desired look.  The desired look and the finished
part is not black!  I  totally agree that the finish is not= =20 a
true aged oxide finish, but it can and does come very close
to the look of the oxided finish. ("that does not look like crap")
 
 > Actually, ALL of the methods mentioned will blacken the=20 brass.  The
> key words
> in your statement above are "= aged=20 oxide patina."  All the previous
> mentioned
> methods = darken=20 the brass by putting a Sulfide coating on it, not an
> Oxide =20 coating.  
 
I believe that this is the message we have all tried to convey.=20 however
you choose to not mention or accept the buffing part of the=20 procedure.
 
> "Museum quality restoration" is also an ambiguous=20 term.  It means
> too many
> things to too many = different=20 people.  I have several guns that I
> bought from
> a = museum=20 as they were surplus to their collection.  They are pieces
> of= =20 crap. 
> One even had a rusty Dixie lock on it. 
 
I seldom waste time or spend my money on museum  surplus if = it is=20 crap.
 
> does one restore it to look like it did when it was new, or like= =20
> it's 150-300
> years old?  Depends on the gun, don't=20 it?
Absolutely in my humble opinion!

> Does brass get black through normal wear and aging......I don= 't=20
> think so. 
> But if that old gun is in the rafters of = a=20 barn for 100 years,
> subjected to
> manure fumes, moldy hay,= =20 changes in temperature and humidity, and
> various
> other = things,=20 then the oxide formed on the brass will react with
> those other=20
>chemicals in the air and deposit a new compound on the brass. = =20 However,
> this
> ain't an aged patina.  
I agree, but that is not the question, the question was " what = can=20 be
done to give brass a dulled aged look in less than a hundred=20 years." 
As you said above, all of the mentioned methods will = darken the=20 brass,
but not give it a true oxide finish.  Buffing the sulfide = finish=20 will give
a very close look to the oxide finish. Jewelers and engravers have
for centuries used Liver of Sulfur to darken jewelry back grounds
and lettering in engraving.  After the application the piece= =20 is buffed to
the desired contrast.
 
> I believe that the book, "Thoughts on D. Boon's gun" written in = the=20
> late
> 1800's, Harrison & Stelle, and TB Tryon all = mention=20 this method in
> their
> writings.  What I said was, it = dulls=20 shiny brass.  I didn't say it
> makes an
> instant=20 patina.  Obviously it works, because it was done in the
> field= to=20 dull
> down sights and hardware. 
 
Apparently you haven't tried the hull rubbing method,  I have,
it works to a degree, but is very slow and somewhat fugitive,
it don't last long.  A Sharpie pen is quicker and lasts longer,
but  again, is not pre 1840.
 
>Also, recognized gun builders don't know everything. 
>Each knows things that the others don't, and there are 
&= gt;=20 many  things used in the past that still remain to be uncovered.
I can't totally agree with this,  Wallace G, and John B have
forgotten far more about the old ways than you or I will ever
know.  (May John rest in peace)  Both of these recognized
gun builders wrote of the merits of liver of sulfur for an aged
look for brass.  I do beleave however you are correct in you
statement that there is still a wealth of information for researchers<= /DIV>
to uncover/discover.  (my interpretation of your statement)
 
> Only you live in the West. 
 
I spent the majority of my life in Kentucky, and I understand
the fact that there are folks on this list from all over the world
thats why I didn't give a  method to darken brass that would
be a local or be very difficult for list members to obtain.
 
> few have extensive reference libraries that would even mention=20
> this fact.  Like I said, everyone don't know everything.
<= /DIV>
Today, most everyone has access to the extensive reference
(= research)=20 libraries you refer to.  There is very little information
that is = not=20 accessible by any member on this list if they don't mind
a little work.

But then again, what does any of us mere mortals= =20 know?  

> Mere mortals know the total sum of their=20 education.  We got A
> students and C  students, and even = the A=20 students are still studying.
I am sure that the membership of this list are not all (A) students,
but I will guarantee that regardless of an academic classification
every single individual on this list are "still studying," = researching=20 and
working very hard to learn everything they can about this thing
we love.  They wouldn't hang out on this list if they were not=20 "still
studying"!

"Let the flames begin!"

> Ain't no future in it.  = Too=20 many old guys get all bent out of shape
> and have
> heart = attacks=20 sitting at the computer because of high blood
> pressure.  Each= =20
> can only state his case and let the readers decide, and in the end= ,=20
> half will
> believe one guy and half the other. 
 
Here I agree again.
 
>You disappoint me.  Just a  couple of  weeks ago, = you=20 said you
wished I would provide some input on  smoothbores. 
>Go  figger!!
 
You know, sometimes I am a disappointment to my self, but
what I wrote about you and Bob providing some input on
smoothbores was genuine.  However you chose not share
your experience with us, which is a shame.  I must say that
you are more of a disappointment to me and the list than I
am to myself  because of the way you sometimes communicate
with this list (or any of the others you are on).  Go back and
read your original post on this subject.  Dave, you are not God,<= /DIV>
you don't know everything about anything, but your  posts =20 sound
like you think you are God and do know everything.  What you= =20
say is the only acceptable way and everybody on the list is stump
dumb because they don't have your education, reference/research
facility or may simply disagree with you.  You have a = lot to=20 share
if you wanted to, but your method of presentation needs some
serious scrutiny.      None of us know = it=20 all, but some of us show
our true ignorance by pretending we do!  This format allows=20 anyone
to be anything they want to be, the choice is yours!  My problem = has=20
always been I only write about what I have hands on experience with.
Much of the research I have done in the past 60 years I have= =20 not 
personally  field tested so I don't write about it, or pass = it on=20 as if it
was proven fact.   Again, "different strokes for = different=20 folks"
 
Still would like to hear your input on smoothbores.  But I won't= =20 beg.<G>
 
Once again, a respectful,
Old Coyote
 
----__JNP_000_5e06.4ea5.2b30-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 08 Dec 2001 14:28:37 -0800 Damned if it ain't refreshing to have a pissin match going, that I didn't start ! My $0.02 on Brass Parts. Charlie, wipe them down with the first dirty patch you get after shootin the gun for the first time. This will dull the bright finish considerably. Then, just use the gun and wipe it down religously with oily or greasy patches each time you clean it. You'll be surprised how fast the parts will take on a nice patina. As long as you don't ever shine them up with polish or steel wool, they will just get better with age. Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 08 Dec 2001 14:22:34 -0700 No such match going on with me, the method you describe is exactly what I wrote in my first response to this question. On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:28:37 -0800 "larry pendleton" writes: > Damned if it ain't refreshing to have a pissin match going, that I > didn't > start ! > > My $0.02 on Brass Parts. Charlie, wipe them down with the first > dirty patch > you get after shootin the gun for the first time. This will dull > the bright > finish considerably. Then, just use the gun and wipe it down > religously > with oily or greasy patches each time you clean it. You'll be > surprised how > fast the parts will take on a nice patina. As long as you don't > ever shine > them up with polish or steel wool, they will just get better with > age. > Pendleton > " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." Subject: MtMan-List: Hello the List from Big Thunder Date: 08 Dec 2001 21:50:15 -0600 Been across the canyon watching long enough to reckon some of y'all look like Indians and I would be honored to sit at yer fire. Twas born 42 winters back and was raised in the Mississippi Territory. Grew up as a rather modern farm boy and didn't get to burn sulphur for the first 18 years of my life but hunted, trapped, and fished more than Mama 'loud. Went to Ole Miss for the wimmens and got educated on the side. Served both in the Air Force and the Army and still hold a commission in the Army Reserves. And yes, I do have my bid in for the all expense paid goat hunt across the pond. Although I am back in land of the Choctaws (Grenada, MS) now, I spent four years in the Clearwaters of North Idaho (Pierce and the Lolo Trail) in the '90s. I moved there after my last active duty hitch just because I was born 160 years too late and refused to accept the fact that I couldn't trap beaver in the mountains and be a mountainee man. Well, I did and dammit I am! Hope to move back someday but my new and lovely Mississippi bride has a long ways to go before she will acclimate her mind to moving to a cooler climate. Much as I loved the mountains Mississippi girls are still made in only one place. It is a powerful thing that can keep me away from those mountains. Shoot a .54 Garner TVM Southern Rifle most of the time (rock in rain today). BTW I took it back to have the sights repaired a couple of weeks ago. I had boogered them up, but Jack and the boys repaired it at no charge. Not bad service on this nine year old gun! He is now operating under his own name and is builiding fine rifles as always, but they do cost more these days. No catalog and no website and apparently no plans for either. He doesn't need them. He is also making stocks for a few other shops who are also highly reputable and surely proud to buy from Jack. As you would expect, he spoke highly of the new TVM and of Jackie Brown. Northeast Mississippi has more than its fair share of the finest! Forgive me please, but I do ramble with the Saturday awerdenty ration. This list caught my interest because of its affiliation with the AMM and of my interest in the RMFT and mountain man era. It seems that most of the time the list is a good mix of hiverannos and green hands and everything in between. Subjects range from the so-called stupid questions that we all have at one time or another to the excitement of a mountain man buffalo hunt today. Yet, I must admit I get queersome confused when list members wander to far from the fire. Who cares if bear grease is or isn't the best patch lube? I have enough to last to my next kill even if it takes a few years and will quit using it when convinced that it is not period correct. And I don't want to make my gear look like it has survived 180 years - I just want it to look like what the mountain men used. Black brass? Patinas? Forgive me again, but I just don't see why that stick should float down the list so long? Yes, I know that it started in innocence but enough is enough. Go trap beaver and fall in the mud with it. That's when you start gettin' that character stuff. Whatever I bought last rendezvous looks its appropriate age if I use and abuse it enough. My life has its modern side with bullets stuffed in brass and beer in cans, but I don't come to this list for it. Really now I am not a so-called flamer and am a nice guy, but............. Yessir, I am an old infantryman and prefer to cut the BS and shoot sharp. Nawsir, I am not there yet. Gotta long way to go before I am satisfied with my knowledge and my gear. This list is helping, and I thank you all. Friends call me Big Thunder. Twice now lightning has lit me up, and even though I like the name I would rather not have earned it. Occasionally, I have to retrain myself to shoot flinchlocks - it was hard enough to overcome the flinching the first time, but the second took years. Back to my poor state of affairs with having to live back here in Mississippi with the love of my life - the eight deer (and one a day in Alabama) and year round beaver trapping do shine. It surely shines. Now, if you will let me sit at yer fire I'll tell you 'bout the thicket I got hung up in today, the one where rabbit skeletons were tangled in the briars and those of coyotes ............. Ronny Oswalt, Sr. Big Thunder Grenada, MS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth Date: 09 Dec 2001 08:19:42 -0800 (PST) I don't understand what the deal is with aging brass! If you were alive in the 1820-40 era, and bought a gun, it would be new, and just normal useage will age it to a period correct patina. If you want to dull the brass so as to not reflect light, just get the oil from your hands on it-ask any ex-military man who has suffered through a dress inspection! Well that's my 2 cents worth, see you on the trail, Dog, Hiv.#617 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth Date: 09 Dec 2001 09:24:52 -0700 Dog, Rightly said! We got a camp comming up on the 11,12 & 13 of January at either Fort Hall or Fort Buenaventure we ain't sure yet. But come too it and bring Moki. YMOS Ole ---------- >From: Ronald Schrotter >To: hist list >Subject: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth >Date: Sun, Dec 9, 2001, 9:19 AM > >I don't understand what the deal is with aging brass! >If you were alive in the 1820-40 era, and bought a >gun, it would be new, and just normal useage will age >it to a period correct patina. If you want to dull >the brass so as to not reflect light, just get the oil >from your hands on it-ask any ex-military man who has >suffered through a dress inspection! Well that's my 2 >cents worth, see you on the trail, Dog, Hiv.#617 > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: brass and brass Date: 09 Dec 2001 10:40:53 -0600 TOF, secondly you said But first you said, That is clearly your personal preference and your opinion which was not sought at all by the original inquirer. The desired effect is beauty, or otherwise, only in the eyes of the beholder. You may state you don't like it but to demean another is very ungentlemanly, not something respected on this list or others of similar subjects. There is brass. Then there is 'brass' of another kind. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass and brass Date: 09 Dec 2001 12:54:11 EST In a message dated 12/9/2001 8:41:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, frankf@cox-internet.com writes: << You may state you don't like it but to demean another is very ungentlemanly, not something respected on this list or others of similar subjects. There is brass. Then there is 'brass' of another kind. >> WOOOHOOOO! you go Frank. That old shit seems to think this is his list, too, but a couple of people rightly jumped down his throat, and I'm glad to see it, too. Take care, Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass and brass Date: 09 Dec 2001 12:54:54 EST oops, sorry, meant old FOX. please forgive the indiscretion! Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Attn Don re: Delaware Date: 09 Dec 2001 12:06:54 -0700 Don of the Ohio: If others on this list will forgive me I will post it through there since some besides you might be interested as well. A while back you posted asking about referances to Delewares in the mountains. Naturally I have watched fer their tracks since and I have a couple from Ruxton. On what is page 35 fer me he says: Against these same Indians a party of a dozen Shawnee and Delaware trappers waged a long and most destructive war, until at last the Yutas were fain to beg for peace, after losing many, of their most famous warriors and chiefs. The cowardly Mexicans, however, have seldom summoned courage to strike a blow in their own defence, and their savage enemies so thoroughly despise them that they never scruple to attack them, however large the party, or in spite of the greatest disparity in numbers between them. Later (pg 85) he also makes, what for me is an interesting commentary on racial relations. Amongst the hunters on the Upper Arkansa were four Delaware Indians, the remnant of a band who had been trapping for several years in the mountains, and many of whom had been killed by hostile Indians, or in warfare with the Apaches while in the employ of the states of New Mexico and Chihuahua. Their names were Jim Dicky, Jim Swannick, Little Beaver, and Big Nigger. The last had married a squaw from the Taos pueblo, and, happening to be in New Mexico with his spouse at the time of the late rising against the Americans, he very naturally took part with the people by whom he had been adopted. In the attack on the Indian pueblo it was said that Big Nigger particularly distinguished himself, calling by name to several of the mountain-men who were amongst the attacking party, and inviting them to come near enough for him, the Big Nigger, to "throw them in their tracks." And this feat he affected more than once, to the cost of the assailants, for it was said that the Delaware killed nearly all who fell on the side of the Americans, his squaw loading his rifle and encouraging him in the fight. By some means or another he escaped after the capture of the pueblo, and made his way to the mountains on the Arkansa; but as it was reported that a price was put upon his head, he retired in company with the other Delawares to the mountains, where they all lay perdu for a time; and it was pretty well understood that any one feeling inclined to reap the reward by the capture of Big Nigger, would be under the necessity of "taking him," and with every probability of catching a Tartar at the same time, the three other Delawares having taken the delinquent under the protection of their rifles. Although companions of the American and Canadian hunters for many years, anything but an entente cordiale existed towards their white confreres on the part of the Delawares, who knew very well that anything in the shape of Indian blood is looked upon with distrust and contempt by the white hunters. This is contridictory with the complimentary statements that Russell, Meek, and Ferris make about the Eastern Indians that they hunt with, but perhaps even if someone admired their ability it still was not enough make them feel welcome or equal. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator Date: 09 Dec 2001 16:10:45 -0500 <<...seems to think this is his list, >> I was wondering, who does "own" this list? One person or a conglomerate of individuals? I.E. - who do we thank? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator Date: 09 Dec 2001 15:20:29 -0600 hikingonthru wrote: >who do we thank? Dean Rudy doesn't get thanked enough. Check out the resources on his site Mountain Men and the Fur Trade. Unbelievable. http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html Thanks, Dean. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Attn Don re: Delaware Date: 10 Dec 2001 00:47:21 +0000 Thanks Wynn, Thanks for the shared info. There is some good reading in Bent's Fort by David Lavendar on Delaware Indians also. BTW, You mention Joe Meek, he made the statement that he would not go into the mountains w/o Delaware trappers in his company. Your friend, Don Secondine in the Ohio Country >From: "Gretchen Ormond" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: Hist mail >Subject: MtMan-List: Attn Don re: Delaware >Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 12:06:54 -0700 > >Don of the Ohio: > >If others on this list will forgive me I will post it through there >since some besides you might be interested as well. A while back you >posted asking about referances to Delewares in the mountains. Naturally >I have watched fer their tracks since and I have a couple from Ruxton. > >On what is page 35 fer me he says: > >Against these same Indians a party of a dozen Shawnee and Delaware >trappers waged a long and most destructive war, until at last the Yutas >were fain to beg for peace, after losing many, of their most famous >warriors and chiefs. The cowardly Mexicans, however, have seldom >summoned courage to strike a blow in their own defence, and their savage >enemies so thoroughly despise them that they never scruple to attack >them, however large the party, or in spite of the greatest disparity in >numbers between them. > >Later (pg 85) he also makes, what for me is an interesting commentary >on racial relations. > >Amongst the hunters on the Upper Arkansa were four Delaware Indians, the >remnant of a band who had been trapping for several years in the >mountains, and many of whom had been killed by hostile Indians, or in >warfare with the Apaches while in the employ of the states of New Mexico >and Chihuahua. Their names were Jim Dicky, Jim Swannick, Little Beaver, >and Big Nigger. The last had married a squaw from the Taos pueblo, and, >happening to be in New Mexico with his spouse at the time of the late >rising against the Americans, he very naturally took part with the >people by whom he had been adopted. > >In the attack on the Indian pueblo it was said that Big Nigger >particularly distinguished himself, calling by name to several of the >mountain-men who were amongst the attacking party, and inviting them to >come near enough for him, the Big Nigger, to "throw them in their >tracks." And this feat he affected more than once, to the cost of the >assailants, for it was said that the Delaware killed nearly all who fell >on the side of the Americans, his squaw loading his rifle and >encouraging him in the fight. > >By some means or another he escaped after the capture of the pueblo, and >made his way to the mountains on the Arkansa; but as it was reported >that a price was put upon his head, he retired in company with the other >Delawares to the mountains, where they all lay perdu for a time; and it >was pretty well understood that any one feeling inclined to reap the >reward by the capture of Big Nigger, would be under the necessity of >"taking him," and with every probability of catching a Tartar at the >same time, the three other Delawares having taken the delinquent under >the protection of their rifles. Although companions of the American and >Canadian hunters for many years, anything but an entente cordiale >existed towards their white confreres on the part of the Delawares, who >knew very well that anything in the shape of Indian blood is looked upon >with distrust and contempt by the white hunters. > > > This is contridictory with the complimentary statements that Russell, >Meek, and Ferris make about the Eastern Indians that they hunt with, but >perhaps even if someone admired their ability it still was not enough >make them feel welcome or equal. > >Wynn Ormond > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator Date: 09 Dec 2001 19:25:49 -0600 On Sun, 09 Dec 2001 16:10:45 -0500 hikingonthru@cs.com writes: > <<...seems to think this is his list, >> > > I was wondering, who does "own" this list? One person or a > conglomerate of individuals? I.E. - who do we thank? > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > it says it at the bottom of each post---as you can see above---but believe dean says its a AMM thing for all the brothers---and all those who want to learn and try to become one of the brothers---or to just learn the history and ways of the mountain man---dean its your list as far as i know---you are the cpt of this camp--- Nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce Home of "Old Grizz Products" & "the Arkansas Under Hammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone:1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator Date: 09 Dec 2001 19:30:18 -0600 On Sun, 9 Dec 2001 15:20:29 -0600 "Lanney Ratcliff" writes: > hikingonthru wrote: > >who do we thank? > > Dean Rudy doesn't get thanked enough. Check out the resources on > his site > Mountain Men and the Fur Trade. > Unbelievable. > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html > > Thanks, Dean. > Lanney Ratcliff > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > i'll secont that one and he dont get involved in any of the petty crap as some list owners believe they have to---he lets the list run its self---thanks dean---and again---thanks dean---we all appreciate your work -----AMM dont need moderation or censorship or injection of personal predijuces----contact me offline pard--- nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce Home of "Old Grizz Products" & "the Arkansas Under Hammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone:1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator Date: 09 Dec 2001 22:16:26 -0500 I agree to that!! MANY, MANY Thanks, Dean, for all of your work on this list. Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Longhunter Series Vol 5/oil cloth Date: 09 Dec 2001 23:12:58 EST Klahowya ows, I just finished watching the newest Longhunter Series,vol #5, with John Curry. While I enjoyed Mark Baker's first 4 in the series a bit more, #5 is interesting. John Curry mentioned that oil cloth and painted canvas were not "period correct" for a "civilian" longhunter of the mid 1700's.... They camped in either caves, or under primitive leantos, covered with leaves and such, and most looked pretty cold and wet. Anyone know how long oil cloth and/or painted canvas has been around? Hell, a small piece of untreated canvas would have worked better, and I gotta believe was PC.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "CrookedHand" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Longhunter Series Vol 5/oil cloth Date: 09 Dec 2001 23:50:44 -0500 Know what? primitive lean to's are gREAT if you have no wind and a nice piece of canvas to throw over the top.. real great in a drizzle so long as you don't back up to a hill that drains under your back side!\\ note if it is cold or damp.. ANY shelter is welcome.. it is the ability to build a fire in close proximity that is the challenge/// Mark "CrookedHand" Toigo http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://www.alltel.net/~chand/ ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 11:12 PM > Klahowya ows, > I just finished watching the newest Longhunter Series,vol #5, with John > Curry. While I enjoyed Mark Baker's first 4 in the series a bit more, #5 is > interesting. John Curry mentioned that oil cloth and painted canvas were not > "period correct" for a "civilian" longhunter of the mid 1700's.... They > camped in either caves, or under primitive leantos, covered with leaves and > such, and most looked pretty cold and wet. > > Anyone know how long oil cloth and/or painted canvas has been around? Hell, a > small piece of untreated canvas would have worked better, and I gotta believe > was PC.... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth Date: 10 Dec 2001 01:22:56 EST In a message dated 12/9/01 8:22:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, mail4dog@yahoo.com writes: << I don't understand what the deal is with aging brass! If you were alive in the 1820-40 era, and bought a gun, it would be new, and just normal useage will age it to a period correct patina. >> I have a real problem with this too Dog! Doesn't make sense to me to take a nice new rifle & beat the heck out of it with chains & such & smear the brass with old cleaning patches or nut hulls to artificially age 'em. Maybe that's OK if what the owner wants is a "wall hanger", but I USE my rifles & figure they'll get enough of their scratches, dents & darkened brass honestly. Like Big Thunder said; "Take it beaver trappin' & fall in the mud with it!" To my way of thinking, there just ain't no substitute for hard use & age to get "that look". One of my rifles is 8 years old & looking just the way I think it should. Besides, as Dog said, we're reenacting the period when these guns were NEW or just a few years old. I seriously doubt Crockett, Bridger, Boone, Meek or any of the people we try so hard to emulate would buy a gun that looked 150 years old. Another 2 cents for the pot! NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Apology... Date: 10 Dec 2001 10:19:26 EST To all members of this list, and especially Dave (TOF) Kanger, I owe you a personal apology for my posting yesterday. It was definitely out-of-line, and I am truly sorry. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Attn Don re: Delaware Date: 10 Dec 2001 13:17:48 EST In a message dated 12/9/01 4:48:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: << Bent's Fort by David Lavendar on Delaware Indians also. >> THAT'S where I read it! Thanks for reminding -- was going nuts trying to remember where I'd read about the Delewares. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "De Santis, Nick" Subject: MtMan-List: Brass parts? Dare I ask? Date: 10 Dec 2001 11:42:41 -0800 Well now! I want to thank all of you fine ladies and genterman fur your idears! I might just give one or two of the good uns a wirl, But I will be Gaud-damned if I ever let go which one I even tried! A feller could get his head bit offen' his here neck! This question was more amusing than the time we let the snakes go in the Ladies Room at the 1st Baptist Church! Them hens did't stop cluckin for a month! All in fun ladies, all in fun! Nick -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:50 PM Hi, I have been playing around trying to fix up a bad kit pistol I picked up cheap at a show, and I am trying to go for the older gun look. I have some ideas on browning and wood finishing, but need some input on the furniture that is brass (or silver for that matter) and how to give it that older patina (sp?). Anyway old brass looks old and brass that has just been finished looks new. How to get to the old look in less than 20 years? Thanks for any tricks you may want to share. Nick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: 'Muzzloader Mag' /Nov. /Dec. 2001 Date: 10 Dec 2001 22:34:07 -0800 (PST) Magpie, Baker wrote an article in the present issue of 'Muzzleloader Mag' where he gives some info regarding historical reference as well as the downside of oil cloth; at least maybe his formulae. it could be linseed oil just deteriates canvas quickly. you may want to read this article. i was at Polebridge for the natl., Baker and I go way back. i'm the one who bought his honeymoon Tipi as well as attended the wedding. he even camped primative in the White mtns. of arizona in 82 and helped me pull traps on a coyote line during a blizzard. according to his story hudson bay used the canvas to cover goods while transporting by boat or pack train. afterwards they traded the oil cloth to trappers. question is since it deteriatted so fast did it last til the next summer rendezvous? it would seem wiser to me to keep a plain cotton canvas and use it many years rather than be caught with a shelter that eventually came apart and/or got on your clothes. i just wonder if they 'tallowed' or greased canvas for waterproffing after years, or months of use. i'm sure when the oil cloth became deteriated they hated the mess all over ther goods, bales, and clothing. there has to be canvas treatment we haven't uncovered as of yet; documentation is sometimes rare or non-existent. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello the List from Big Thunder Date: 11 Dec 2001 07:18:46 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- > Now, if you will let me sit at yer fire I'll tell you 'bout the thicket I > got hung up in today, the one where rabbit skeletons were tangled in the > briars and those of coyotes ............. Hallo Ronny I'm a bit behind in my reading of the list and other corrospondence.... but a belated welcome. Hope you get back up to God's country some day. Regards Lee Newbill North Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: neddins Subject: MtMan-List: Delaware - Missouri Fur Company Date: 11 Dec 2001 08:45:35 An early reference to Delaware in the Rocky Mountains is in the letters of Pierre Meanrd, Resident Partner of the Missouri Fur Company – Menard states two Delaware were killed with George Drouillard at the Three Forks in 1810, not Shawnee. Take Care, Ned www.thefurtrapper.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 'Muzzloader Mag' /Nov. /Dec. 2001 Date: 11 Dec 2001 09:57:24 -0800 Clint, Though the jury may still be out on how wide spread the use of "oil cloth" was and exactly how it was made, I would share with you that I have a couple "oil cloths" made of muslin for lightness of weight, a frock of fairly heavy linen that was similarly treated with linseed/bee's wax and burnt umber oil paint and none have deteriorated that I can notice. They are running on 6 or more years old now. So I submit that deterioration of treated cloth is not a given. If Baker is experiencing such deterioration of his oil cloths it may be his formula because it is not quite the same as what I did. I probably would have done it as Magpie and Baker did if I had known exactly how Baker had done it. I came into the experiment somewhere in the middle and didn't hear the full story so just went with what I thought would be the right way. That proved different from Baker's formula/method in that I used some bee's wax and instead of pigment, used the artists oil paint for color. I also put the stuff on well thinned with turpentine or Naphtha (whatever I had on hand). But having said all that, I have found that treating good cotton shelter material with anything other than a lime/alum soak as George Washington Sears did in the late 1800's is not necessary and in fact that isn't even really necessary if the canvas is pitched steep enough and is a tightly woven material in the first place. Now a ground cloth is a different story if your trying to keep your bedding from getting wet from the ground. I have also discovered that most painters cloths end up making poor shelter material, preferring something in the neighborhood of pocket drill/100% cotton. Linen is a different story in that most that I have come across is not tightly woven enough to make a good shelter at least to my eye, though I admit to not having tried it yet because of the expense of linen. It looks too open even after having been shrunk washed. On the subject of Baker's ML article, I'm thinking that his shelter design could be much improved if he had made some small changes in how it was set up, specifically how the shelter sections had been laid on the stick work. A shingle effect is desirable. Thus the side pieces should have been laid on first then covered with the roof pieces starting at the bottom going up. As he has it diagramed, water can run under the part of the side pieces that lay over the roof and in to the inhabited area. Just putting them on first will eliminate that possibility. And for my money and time, a flater version of a tipi shape works better for a small group shelter. Two poles extending to right and left of a wide opening door area with one going straight to the back of the intended shelter. Each occupant adds loose poles to give the frame some filled in body and then adds his shelter piece shingle fashion around the frame until it is all enclosed to the degree wished. A shelter much the same shape as our NW Plateau Indians made of reeds would be close and probably work even better. It is similar to two tipis set a few feet apart with a ridge pole going between. Extra poles are laid into the ridge and the whole covered with reed mats or whathave you. Makes for one long cozy lodge/longhouse. Our party of 7/8 made such a shelter last Jan. and ended up with our fire inside. Not much head room except in the middle but it was cozy and roomy non the less. It was much more storm proof than Bakers open faced lean-to and took less tying and probably fewer poles since we build below a big pin (where all the needles had fallen for the past 30 years) and used a low lying branch as a starting point for the apex of our shelter. Hope that all helps some. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware - Missouri Fur Company Date: 11 Dec 2001 22:46:42 +0000 Howdy Ned, The party you have mentioned is the earliest mention of Delaware Indians hunting in the Rockies. An interesting entry. Two Delawares killed? Musta been a whole passel of Blackfeet carried dead off the field.WAUGH!!!!! Don Secondine >From: neddins >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Delaware - Missouri Fur Company >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:45:35 > >An early reference to Delaware in the Rocky Mountains is in the letters of >Pierre Meanrd, Resident Partner of the Missouri Fur Company – Menard >states two Delaware were killed with George Drouillard at the Three Forks >in 1810, not Shawnee. > >Take Care, >Ned >www.thefurtrapper.com > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: looking for blackpowder club in Edmonton ,Albert Date: 11 Dec 2001 18:30:42 EST Someone once gave me the E-Mail address and website for a newsletter and gunclub located in Edmonton, Alberta Canada. If you have this information could you please forward it to me for a fellow buckskinner who'se moved there from the USA. Also, does anyone know if Clark & Son Mercantile is still in business. The website I had for them doesn't work anymore. If you have their current website, or if they sold out and you know the new owners info, please send that to me. Thanks! Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." Subject: re: MtMan-List: looking for blackpowder club in Edmonton ,Alber Date: 11 Dec 2001 17:58:56 -0600 Just tried this address for Clark & Sons and it works. http://www.clarkandsons.com/ Big Thunder Grenada, MS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps Date: 11 Dec 2001 21:09:12 EST Hey folks, I was wondering what you all have read about trappers keeping dogs in camp. Seems they may have picked them up in their encounters with the natives they encountered. Obviously, they had dogs all around their camps...still one of the best burglar alarms and early warning systems out there! But, I am looking for documentation of dogs kept in camp regularly. I seem to recall one ill-fated dog that got relegated to food while on a winter tramp from a snowed in camp east to a fort/city...the two trappers hit it in the head with an ax, threw it on the fire and it awoke (rather singed) and ran off - they had to retrieve it and dispatch it again. I AM NOT looking for references to dogs as food and how good it really is ...yadda, yadda ...nor how natives utilized them. I am looking for references to them as close companions and pets for trappers. Appreciate the help in advance!!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps Date: 11 Dec 2001 19:18:39 -0700 Sublette and Harris used dogs as pack animals when they traipsed from Bear Lake to St. Louis in the middle of winter. Not sure if these were borrowed from the local tribe or were their own animals. Teton On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:09:12 EST HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: > Hey folks, > > I was wondering what you all have read about trappers keeping dogs > in camp. > Seems they may have picked them up in their encounters with the > natives they > encountered. Obviously, they had dogs all around their > camps...still one of > the best burglar alarms and early warning systems out there! But, I > am > looking for documentation of dogs kept in camp regularly. I seem to > recall > one ill-fated dog that got relegated to food while on a winter tramp > from a > snowed in camp east to a fort/city...the two trappers hit it in the > head with > an ax, threw it on the fire and it awoke (rather singed) and ran off > - they > had to retrieve it and dispatch it again. I AM NOT looking for > references to > dogs as food and how good it really is ...yadda, yadda ...nor how > natives > utilized them. I am looking for references to them as close > companions and > pets for trappers. Appreciate the help in advance!!! > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps Date: 11 Dec 2001 18:52:30 -0800 I don't know if it qualifies, but it seems that it starts with Seaman (on the Lewis and Clark expo), and from there it's a continuum of varying degree with their relations to the natives. I mean, as they took natives for relations the dogs came along. In many cases they are implied but not mentioned. Dogs were a part of the trapper community on the native end. Most Rocky Mountain trappers were a part of some native community, if only by default, since the natives were migratory and had claim to the resources. While the Ashley-Henry men, as employees, don't seem to have been allowed to take pets along, the mountains were full of everything from orphaned human kids to bear cubs to stray dogs. Some pets were special, but most most were common and trappers would not have wanted to be remembered as soft on a pet, so I have not found a lot of documentation. B'st'rd Clark Kent wrote: > > Hey folks, > > I was wondering what you all have read about trappers keeping dogs in camp. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps Date: 11 Dec 2001 22:31:35 EST In a message dated 12/11/01 9:18:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, tetontodd@juno.com writes: << Sublette and Harris used dogs as pack animals when they traipsed from Bear Lake to St. Louis in the middle of winter. >> That is likely the account I heard of and could not remember who was in on the tramp...gotta go back and check my sources! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Corps of Discovery Descendant Project Date: 11 Dec 2001 22:36:42 -0500 (EST) http://home.pacifier.com/~karenl/lewis&.htm [also see USA Today, Tues. 12-11-01, p.9D brief article titled: Expedition members' descendants sought] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant Date: 11 Dec 2001 20:58:24 -0800 At first I thought that brant was an archaic term for geese. While perusing the great link just provided to the PBS Corps of Discovery site I note a reference to York "shooting two geese and brant." Makes me wonder what the difference is. The dictionary that I have says that brant are small, dark geese. Is the name still in common use, or do we call brant by a more common familiar name? Are brant still hunted, and how does one tell brant from goose? B'st'rd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." Subject: re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant Date: 11 Dec 2001 23:21:38 -0600 Check it out at the DU website http://www.ducks.org/waterfowling/gallery/index.asp?duck=73 or do a Google search for more info. Per DU, "Brant are small, dark geese that have large wings, which give them their characteristic strong flight." Big Thunder Grenada, MS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant Date: 11 Dec 2001 21:33:33 -0800 Do tell, Big Thunder. Looks like I need to mind my eelgrass and I'll pick some out. Oddly, though, shootin' 'em don't float my stick. Thanks heaps. Wonder what Colter would have thought about our "instant knowledge gratification system" that we call the internet? B'st'rd, Orange County, CA "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." wrote: > > Check it out at the DU website > http://www.ducks.org/waterfowling/gallery/index.asp?duck=73 or do a Google > search for more info. > > Per DU, "Brant are small, dark geese that have large wings, which give them > their characteristic strong flight." > > Big Thunder > Grenada, MS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant Date: 12 Dec 2001 01:33:09 EST --part1_72.144e0bfd.29485425_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Brant is a dark stocky sea goose with a black head, neck, and breast and whitish patch on ether side of the neck. Average 25 inches in length where a Canada Goose can reach 45 inches. It is seldom seen far in land spend it summer in the Arctic and winters along the coast. There are many other species of geese in North America Greater White-fronted Goose, Bean Goose, Pink-footed Goose, Snow Goose, Ross's Goose and the Emperor Goose (seldom below Alaska) Watching geese from below can blur ones vision Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_72.144e0bfd.29485425_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Brant is a dark stocky sea goose with a black head, neck, and breast and whitish patch on ether side of the neck. Average 25 inches in length where a Canada Goose can reach 45 inches. It is seldom seen far in land spend it summer in the Arctic and winters along the coast. There are many other species of geese in North America Greater White-fronted Goose, Bean Goose, Pink-footed Goose, Snow Goose, Ross's Goose and the Emperor Goose (seldom below Alaska)
Watching geese from below can blur ones vision
Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_72.144e0bfd.29485425_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant Date: 11 Dec 2001 22:43:57 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- > At first I thought that brant was an archaic term for geese. While > perusing the great link just provided to the PBS Corps of Discovery site > I note a reference to York "shooting two geese and brant." Makes me > wonder what the difference is. 20 years ago, when I was working on my degree for Wildlife Biology, twas still called a brant. I took a moment to dust off my bird books and check. Brant: A small black necked goose, near the size of a mallard. Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Geese vs. brant Date: 12 Dec 2001 16:08:10 -0800 (PST) > Watching geese from below can blur ones vision > Mark "Roadkill" Loader > Not if you keep your eyes shut, Or your mouth open !!!! ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Off topic: Roastin a pig. Date: 12 Dec 2001 16:53:02 -0800 (PST) I'm roastin a pig again for christmas, but its only my second. Any tips comments or recipies from experienced folks would be appreciated. The first was about 50 LBs and came out well, but I'm doin the second in a different hole, its only gonna be 30 LBs, and I still feel like I'm doin it for the first time. SoooEeeeeeeee! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic: Roastin a pig. Date: 12 Dec 2001 20:07:02 -0500 Like they used to do in Puerto Rico.... Deep hole... lots of coals top and bottom, and cover it with something to keep the juices in and keep it moist. Check it frequently with a meat thermometer and read the "Pork" setting on the guage... Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic: Roastin a pig. Date: 12 Dec 2001 23:59:36 EST --part1_6a.17e0a7bc.29498fb8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Bar-b-que originated in Jamaica the use green pimento for the grate to lay the pig on and us a seasoning that is called Jerk made up of cinnamon, nut meg, scallions, scotch bonnet peppers (hotter than jalapenos) thyme, salt, allspice, black pepper, and garlic cloves vegetable oil to make a runny paste all this is rubbed on the outside and stuffed into cut made in the large part of the pig. I cook whole pigs that weight 150 lb. after dressed and skinned on a spit that is covered turning every few minutes takes about eight hours. You have to watch for flame up. Makes for great pig has better flavor and not steamed like hole cooked pigs. Mark "Roakill" Loader Got my name from dutch oven cooking and my roadkill stew for mt. man doings for the past 20 odd years --part1_6a.17e0a7bc.29498fb8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Bar-b-que originated in Jamaica the use green pimento for the grate to lay the pig on and us a seasoning that is called Jerk made up of cinnamon, nut meg, scallions, scotch bonnet peppers (hotter than jalapenos) thyme, salt, allspice, black pepper, and garlic cloves vegetable oil to make a runny paste all this is rubbed on the outside and stuffed into cut made in the large part of the pig. I cook whole pigs that weight 150 lb. after dressed and skinned on a spit that is covered turning every few minutes takes about eight hours. You have to watch for flame up. Makes for great pig has better flavor and not steamed like hole cooked pigs.
Mark "Roakill" Loader
Got my name from dutch oven cooking and my roadkill stew for mt. man doings for the past 20 odd years --part1_6a.17e0a7bc.29498fb8_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." Subject: re: MtMan-List: Off topic: Roastin a pig. Date: 12 Dec 2001 23:52:57 -0600 It would take at least a small cookbook to adequately cover this matter - not to mention the liquor bill. A good supply of Elijah Craig 18 yr old bourbon will get you all the real, true, bona fide "Memphis"style, stole from Mississippi barbecue knowledge you can stand from yours truly and a few other opportunists I know. But for a no charge short lesson let me tell you that indirect heat from a hardwood fire at 200 deg for about two bottles (thats about 16-18 hours) should cook it to perfection. Baste it every drink or two with a cider vinegar and water soaked mop. It will be slap-yo-mama good. If you are really serious about doing it right, but too short on plews to buy Willinghams BBQ book you can get a fair education from "Bob in Georgia" at http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/whole_hog.htm. Also, the Smoke Ring http://www.smokering.net/ has hundreds of sites that will help. BUT, none of them can do what I can if you just bring of couple of them pigs and a couple of those bottled timers to me and my big backyard cooker. That would be Some! I cook my venison hind quarters much the same way, but it takes some serious priming to get me to share it! Mine! Mine! Mine! But Elijah 18 can talk me into sharing bout anything I got but my bedwarmer. Problem: sumptin' ain't quite right when mountain men are talkin' like a bunch of pork eatin' .............. High Cotton and Shinin' Times, Big Thuinder Grenada, MS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article Date: 12 Dec 2001 22:33:37 -0800 (PST) according to baker and other sources the problem with oil cloth is that it is very flamable. thus a plain untreated canvas is superioe 'FIRE WISE' to oil cloth if one wants a more than moderate fire relecting off of rocks or green logs during a heavy blizzard or cold spell. check out baker's article in muzzleloader. surely not all mountain men in astor's period or ashley's traded for oil cloth. it is like everything else, individual intelligience and resourcefulness gave a range of choices due to the materials of the time. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger Date: 13 Dec 2001 10:01:26 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:33 PM > > according to baker and other sources the problem with > oil cloth is that it is very flamable. Clint, Not finding fault with the message your sending. We certainly need to be careful with our fires and our firelocks (caplocks too) but if I may use your post to make a clarification? There is a difference between flammable and combustible. Without getting into ingnition temperatures, flash points, etc. that would be found applying to various materials (liquid and solid) that will burn I would like to put things in perspective. Gasoline, paint thinners, turpentine and such are flammables. This is because of their relatively low ignition temperatures and flash points. Extreme caution must be used with such substances because of the ease and even violence with which they can be made to burn. Wood, many oils and even dry paint are combustibles not flammables. They are catagorized as such because of the increased difficulty in igniting them. Though they will catch fire with varying degrees of ease, generally they do not ignite easily or violently and they are also much easier to extinguish once ignited than the substances clasified as flammable. To put things in further perspective, untreated canvas and most other natural and many synthetic fabrics are combustibles. Some will burn but not readily and some will burn with surprising ferocity "once ignited". Treated canvas depending on the treatment will have increased combustibility but unless the treatment is still wet will not be considered flammable and it will still not be ignited except by direct flame impingement. Generally a spark will not do the trick. It may smolder and "burn" better than untreated or it may even "burn" slower. Applying reasonable caution makes treated canvas relativly safe to use. You just don't let a candle get right next to it. But you wouldn't do that with untreated either. My conclusion? Use treated or untreated canvas/linen for your period shelters with common sense and due caution. But for those of us who have searched for the "best" method, many of us find that a good tightly woven cotton or perhaps even linen material will shed water quite well and thus treating such material is only adding weight to the material that probalby is not necessary. It also increases the materials "combustibility" thus making it slightly more dangerous to use around open flame. If one uses common sense and is realistic about what water proofing techniques provide, one can feel confident that either treated or untreated shelters will work fine and be safe. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger Date: 13 Dec 2001 11:49:39 -0700 Excellent post Capt! I'm always impressed that you take the time to explain things so well. Thanks! Teton On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:01:26 -0800 "rtlahti" writes: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Clint Garrett" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:33 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article > > > > > > according to baker and other sources the problem with > > oil cloth is that it is very flamable. > > Clint, > > Not finding fault with the message your sending. We certainly need > to be > careful with our fires and our firelocks (caplocks too) but if I may > use > your post to make a clarification? > > There is a difference between flammable and combustible. Without > getting > into ingnition temperatures, flash points, etc. that would be found > applying > to various materials (liquid and solid) that will burn I would like > to put > things in perspective. > > Gasoline, paint thinners, turpentine and such are flammables. This > is > because of their relatively low ignition temperatures and flash > points. > Extreme caution must be used with such substances because of the > ease and > even violence with which they can be made to burn. > > Wood, many oils and even dry paint are combustibles not flammables. > They are > catagorized as such because of the increased difficulty in igniting > them. > Though they will catch fire with varying degrees of ease, generally > they do > not ignite easily or violently and they are also much easier to > extinguish > once ignited than the substances clasified as flammable. > > To put things in further perspective, untreated canvas and most > other > natural and many synthetic fabrics are combustibles. Some will burn > but not > readily and some will burn with surprising ferocity "once ignited". > Treated > canvas depending on the treatment will have increased combustibility > but > unless the treatment is still wet will not be considered flammable > and it > will still not be ignited except by direct flame impingement. > Generally a > spark will not do the trick. It may smolder and "burn" better than > untreated > or it may even "burn" slower. > > Applying reasonable caution makes treated canvas relativly safe to > use. You > just don't let a candle get right next to it. But you wouldn't do > that with > untreated either. > > My conclusion? Use treated or untreated canvas/linen for your > period > shelters with common sense and due caution. But for those of us who > have > searched for the "best" method, many of us find that a good tightly > woven > cotton or perhaps even linen material will shed water quite well and > thus > treating such material is only adding weight to the material that > probalby > is not necessary. It also increases the materials "combustibility" > thus > making it slightly more dangerous to use around open flame. If one > uses > common sense and is realistic about what water proofing techniques > provide, > one can feel confident that either treated or untreated shelters > will work > fine and be safe. > > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger Date: 13 Dec 2001 14:17:07 -0700 Associated with this idea of the treated and untreated canvas, I agree with Roger. I found long ago that tightly woven material tightly erected, sheds water just fine. I have been in some pretty hard and continuous rains with tightly woven and tightly strung canvas and have not had a problem with it. I don't think that the added weight of treated canvas for shelters is worth the effort. Of course I live in the relatively dry west. I also believe that the treated canvas, Russia sheeting, linen or other materials are and were more useful for wrapping goods (packaging) to protect them from water. Especially where you can't stretch the material tightly to shed water. I would further propose that historically these treated materials were used more commonly for "packaging" rather than for shelters. I'm sure that some treated materials were used for shelters and that many of those treated packaging pieces would later be recycled and used for shelters. The only other use/advantage I would see for treated material would be for a ground cloth. These are just my suppositions and I don't have any documentation. I do think that it would be a good research item for someone to look into. Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf ----- Original Message ----- > ... Use treated or untreated canvas/linen for your period > shelters with common sense and due caution. But for those of us who have > searched for the "best" method, many of us find that a good tightly woven > cotton or perhaps even linen material will shed water quite well and thus > treating such material is only adding weight to the material that probalby > is not necessary....> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger Date: 13 Dec 2001 13:17:15 -0800 (PST) i'm glad we have a man with fire oreinted knowledge among buckskinning; i'm also pleased he has earned so much respect. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger Date: 13 Dec 2001 13:27:29 -0800 Thanks Teton. We share what we have. No one should go hungry when there is food in camp. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:49 AM > Excellent post Capt! I'm always impressed that you take the time to > explain things so well. > Thanks! > > Teton > > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:01:26 -0800 "rtlahti" writes: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Clint Garrett" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:33 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article > > > > > > > > > > according to baker and other sources the problem with > > > oil cloth is that it is very flamable. > > > > Clint, > > > > Not finding fault with the message your sending. We certainly need > > to be > > careful with our fires and our firelocks (caplocks too) but if I may > > use > > your post to make a clarification? > > > > There is a difference between flammable and combustible. Without > > getting > > into ingnition temperatures, flash points, etc. that would be found > > applying > > to various materials (liquid and solid) that will burn I would like > > to put > > things in perspective. > > > > Gasoline, paint thinners, turpentine and such are flammables. This > > is > > because of their relatively low ignition temperatures and flash > > points. > > Extreme caution must be used with such substances because of the > > ease and > > even violence with which they can be made to burn. > > > > Wood, many oils and even dry paint are combustibles not flammables. > > They are > > catagorized as such because of the increased difficulty in igniting > > them. > > Though they will catch fire with varying degrees of ease, generally > > they do > > not ignite easily or violently and they are also much easier to > > extinguish > > once ignited than the substances clasified as flammable. > > > > To put things in further perspective, untreated canvas and most > > other > > natural and many synthetic fabrics are combustibles. Some will burn > > but not > > readily and some will burn with surprising ferocity "once ignited". > > Treated > > canvas depending on the treatment will have increased combustibility > > but > > unless the treatment is still wet will not be considered flammable > > and it > > will still not be ignited except by direct flame impingement. > > Generally a > > spark will not do the trick. It may smolder and "burn" better than > > untreated > > or it may even "burn" slower. > > > > Applying reasonable caution makes treated canvas relativly safe to > > use. You > > just don't let a candle get right next to it. But you wouldn't do > > that with > > untreated either. > > > > My conclusion? Use treated or untreated canvas/linen for your > > period > > shelters with common sense and due caution. But for those of us who > > have > > searched for the "best" method, many of us find that a good tightly > > woven > > cotton or perhaps even linen material will shed water quite well and > > thus > > treating such material is only adding weight to the material that > > probalby > > is not necessary. It also increases the materials "combustibility" > > thus > > making it slightly more dangerous to use around open flame. If one > > uses > > common sense and is realistic about what water proofing techniques > > provide, > > one can feel confident that either treated or untreated shelters > > will work > > fine and be safe. > > > > > > YMOS > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger Date: 13 Dec 2001 13:36:43 -0800 (PST) this very topic of packaging your goods or tying it to the packsaddle came up at the POLEBRIDGE RENDEZVOUS this summer. the conversation was at a packsaddle makers trade blanket. the consensus became that the ground cloth and shelter were the packaging covers. it was seen that there was no use carrying any extra weight or matewrial to cover your gear. one had only so many animals to carry his gear; why add items when you can utilize things for multi different purposes. however, even if we agreed on the idea; no one cited any document to prove this. evidently many had dug up this info before. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/Trade Blanket Lists Date: 13 Dec 2001 14:04:31 -0700 Ladies & Gentlemen, I have lost my "favorite links" list and am looking for the trade blanket lists (URL) that one could use to buy or sell muzzleloading items on, got them from you folks a few years ago, can anyone help - they sure worked. As far as treated material being used for a rapping or packaging item, look at some of the government contracts for weapons, ex: Hanson has shown in several of his articles in the museum Quarterlies that different manufacturers of different guns sent those weapons per their contract in an "oiled wrap or sleeve". Again if one will look at some of the trade lists you'll find "tinware" wrapped in a protective covering ("oiled wrap or sleeve" ?). Makes sense ! Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 2:17 PM >I would further propose that historically these treated materials were used > more commonly for "packaging" rather than for shelters. I'm sure that some > treated materials were used for shelters and that many of those treated > packaging pieces would later be recycled and used for shelters. The only > other use/advantage I would see for treated material would be for a ground > cloth. These are just my suppositions and I don't have any documentation. I > do think that it would be a good research item for someone to look into. > > Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger Date: 13 Dec 2001 14:46:14 -0700 Capt Lahti. Your entire post is very well stated, the best I believe I have ever read on this subject. Thank you for your efforts! Old Coyote > Applying reasonable caution makes treated canvas relativly safe to > use. You > just don't let a candle get right next to it. But you wouldn't do > that with > untreated either. > > My conclusion? Use treated or untreated canvas/linen for your > period > shelters with common sense and due caution. But for those of us who > have > searched for the "best" method, many of us find that a good tightly > woven > cotton or perhaps even linen material will shed water quite well and > thus > treating such material is only adding weight to the material that > probalby > is not necessary. It also increases the materials "combustibility" > thus > making it slightly more dangerous to use around open flame. If one > uses > common sense and is realistic about what water proofing techniques > provide, > one can feel confident that either treated or untreated shelters > will work > fine and be safe. > > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Re Treated Canvas and shelters Date: 13 Dec 2001 13:58:34 -0800 I too have found light, tightly woven canvas (such as a painter's drop cloth) to be a good shelter in the rain, and much lighter than oil cloth. The historical references mention skins or blankets draped over branches or leafy bowers. I've done this with my canvas, or draped it over rope or ridge pole, as conditions dictate, with acceptable results. Let's not forget that the historical mountain men were able to shoot game animals frequently, and probably had a surplus of green skins that could be used for shelter, over and above their clothing needs. I admit to the use of a treated canvas around my bedroll, which adds comfort and insurance against any minor leakage from my untreated shelter, but I believe once you have lived in the woods for many weeks, you become accustomed to being somewhat damp and greasy, and such luxuries are less important. And again - there would have been furs and skins that could be left behind after being used in prolonged rain. Our conditions are different, we need to backpack our stuff and save it for next time, so there is greater incentive to use waterproofed material of a reasonably historic sort. I personally don't carry a heavy oiled canvas as a shelter, but I don't live in a chronically rainy area either. Pat Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 'Muzzloader Mag' /Nov. /Dec. 2001 Date: 13 Dec 2001 18:06:31 EST In a message dated 12/11/01 9:58:08 AM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << They are running on 6 or more years old now. So I submit that deterioration of treated cloth is not a given. >> I've only got 6-7 months on my oil cloth using linseed oil and yellow iron oxide, and it still looks new, . I know of some tarps several years old made in the same manner that have not "deteriorated" yet, so I question Mark's statement... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger Date: 13 Dec 2001 15:23:32 -0800 Thank you Old Coyote. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 1:46 PM > Capt Lahti. > Your entire post is very well stated, the best I believe I > have ever read on this subject. Thank you for your efforts! > Old Coyote > > > > Applying reasonable caution makes treated canvas relativly safe to > > use. You > > just don't let a candle get right next to it. But you wouldn't do > > that with > > untreated either. > > > > My conclusion? Use treated or untreated canvas/linen for your > > period > > shelters with common sense and due caution. But for those of us who > > have > > searched for the "best" method, many of us find that a good tightly > > woven > > cotton or perhaps even linen material will shed water quite well and > > thus > > treating such material is only adding weight to the material that > > probalby > > is not necessary. It also increases the materials "combustibility" > > thus > > making it slightly more dangerous to use around open flame. If one > > uses > > common sense and is realistic about what water proofing techniques > > provide, > > one can feel confident that either treated or untreated shelters > > will work > > fine and be safe. > > > > > > YMOS > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article Date: 13 Dec 2001 17:48:28 -0800 Clint, I have a different perspective on oilcloth, given that I'm from a different part of the country than the others who have responded. You are right about The Ashley Men not using oilcloth . Also, if you check the records, I believe you'll find there was little or no cloth or canvas of any kind taken to the rocky mountains, in the early years. My thoughts on oilcloth are that it's use depends on what area of the country you are in. Many of us live, work, rendezvous, hunt, trek, etc. in areas where 40+ inches of rainfall annually are typical, and virtually none of it is freezing precipitation. In our part of the country, 35 to 40 degree weather with slow rain for days on end is very common, in winter. Staying relatively dry in that type of weather is REAL important. As you and others have stated, untreated canvas will shed water, if it's put up right. You can build yourself a bed out of leaves to get you off the ground to keep the water from getting to your blankets, but you need to get that done before it starts to rain. ( something that is not usually an option ) I have used treated canvas and homemade oilcloth without any problems for many years. In fact I have never seen anyone have a treated canvas or oilcloth treking shelter catch fire. I'm not saying it can't or won't happen. Hell, ain't anything 100 % mountain man, or cowboy proof . Our forefathers had the materials and the knowledge needed to make oilcloth, and I feel they did in climates where it was appropriate. Besides that, we just aren't nearly as tough as they were. The very best of us wouldn't make a pimple on Bridger's arse. Not saying we shouldn't strive to be as historically accurate as possible, but the fact is we live in a totally different world. I don't think it is wrong to use a water-resistant shelter in order to be able to get up and go to work on mon. morning. My $0.02 worth, Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas Date: 13 Dec 2001 15:54:44 -0800 (PST) Whoa, here a minute, somethin just clicked with the post about multi use tarps, and packing. Reading through Osbourne Russel and other Journals, one notes that when packs and such were doused in river crossings and such, much time was taken to unpack and dry the beaver. It makes sense that some waterproof covering for the furry dollars would have been sought out by the trappers, and possibly used primarily to keep rain and snow from them, and secondarily as a shelter. Trated canvas would definately keeped packed goods drier than untreated due to the fact that the canvas is going to touch the stuff to packed on your mule or horse. As for those who replied on the pig roastin, thanks. I was really gonna do a Sandwich islander style pig, but you southern boys sound like you have a damn good method for BBQ, probably better than the in ground method, now I might have to fill in my pit and do it the SC way. Hell, its better than the Sandwich islander method just because you have to stay up all night drinkin in order to keep the fire stoked! properly __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article Date: 13 Dec 2001 19:08:16 EST In a message dated 12/12/01 10:36:12 PM, doublelongspring@yahoo.com writes: << according to baker and other sources the problem with oil cloth is that it is very flamable. >> Hummm....again, I don't know where Baker is getting his information. AFTER the oil cloth is dry, it doesn't burn any easier than straight canvas. I ran some tests on sample pieces and reported the results to the List awhile back....may well be the iron oxide is somewhat of a fire retardant... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Treated Canvas/the danger Date: 13 Dec 2001 17:45:46 -0800 Unfortunately, when you need a shelter most is also when you most need to shed water from your trade goods. I >have< read, in multiple sources, that pack goods were "waterproof packed" but the how, I think, varied widely. Voyagers had this one whupped long before the RMFT, you betcha. But unwaterproofing yer trade goods to turn a little water off yer hide? Naw! Warn't gointa melt, darn yer hide. And trade goods soiled didn't catch the squaws eye or catch the winter plew, so (to quote a lardacious Texican), "Hell NAW." B'st'rd Clint Garrett wrote: > > this very topic of packaging your goods or tying it to > the packsaddle came up at the POLEBRIDGE RENDEZVOUS > this summer. the conversation was at a packsaddle > makers trade blanket. the consensus became that the > ground cloth and shelter were the packaging covers. > it was seen that there was no use carrying any extra > weight or matewrial to cover your gear. one had only > so many animals to carry his gear; why add items when > you can utilize things for multi different purposes. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: One more pig recipe Date: 13 Dec 2001 19:10:30 -0600 Chris One more pig roasting suggestion. I read about this many years ago and, in truth, never used it...primarily because I have never gotten around to cooking a whole pig. If this is a duplication of something somebody else sent it's because I didn't see the other post due to my computer giving me some troubles lately.....fixed now, hopefully. Dig a fire pit...trough, actually..... a couple of feet longer than the pig and build a big hardwood fire in it, allowing it to burn down to coals. Or dump a lot of charcoal in the pit and light it. Put up two sturdy "Y" posts near each end of the pit but a foot or two to one side. Truss the pig to a long pole (or steel rod) with a crank at one end, with the pole entering the pig at one end and coming out of the other with the legs tied up close to the body (so they won't burn off). Suspend the pig between the two "Y" posts so that the pig is near (but not actually over) the fire pit and parallel to it. Turn the pig slowly and mop it with a mixture of cooking oil & apricot jam until done. Hours, probably. The pig will cook and all the drippings will end up on the ground, not in the fire, preventing flare-ups and nasty smoke from the burning grease. Any number of mopping concoctions would probably work just fine. Nothing at all would also work. The recipe came from a magazine article about a hunting club somewhere that roasted a pig in this manner every year. I think they hired a couple of school boys to turn the pig...sounds like a lot of work. Grown men might do it if sufficient adult beverages were made available. I will try this one of these days. Lanney Ratcliff amm1585@hyperusa.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Period fishing gear Date: 13 Dec 2001 22:58:11 EST I think it was Ole, looking for some references on fishing in during the Fur Trade... I just read an interesting account from John K. Townsend in "Narrative of a Journey Across the Rocky Mountains to the Columbia River". Townsend was an ornithologist (likes birds) that accompanied Nathaniel Wyeth in 1834.... On Ross's creek, a tributary of the Portneuf... "....and the stream contains an abundance of excellent trout. Some of these are enormous, and very fine eating. They bite eagerly at a grasshopper or minnow, but the largest fish are shy, and the sportsman requires to be carefully concealed in order to take them. We have here none of the fine tackle, jointed rods, reels, and silkworm gut of the accomplished city sportsman; we have only a piece of common cord, and a hook seized on with half-hitches, with a willow rod cut on the banks of the stream; but with this rough equipment we take as many trout as we wish, and who could do more, even with all the curious contrivances of old Izaac Walton or Christopher North?" Looks like a willow rod, and a grasshopper stuck on a half-hitched hook would be PC..... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article Date: 14 Dec 2001 04:34:01 -0800 Clint, I have a different perspective on oilcloth, given that I'm from a different part of the country than the others who have responded. You are right about The Ashley Men not using oilcloth . Also, if you check the records, I believe you'll find there was little or no cloth or canvas of any kind taken to the rocky mountains, in the early years. My thoughts on oilcloth are that it's use depends on what area of the country you are in. Many of us live, work, rendezvous, hunt, trek, etc. in areas where 40+ inches of rainfall annually are typical, and virtually none of it is freezing precipitation. In our part of the country, 35 to 40 degree weather with slow rain for days on end is very common, in winter. Staying relatively dry in that type of weather is REAL important. As you and others have stated, untreated canvas will shed water, if it's put up right. You can build yourself a bed out of leaves to get you off the ground to keep the water from getting to your blankets, but you need to get that done before it starts to rain. ( something that is not usually an option ) I have used treated canvas and homemade oilcloth without any problems for many years. In fact I have never seen anyone have a treated canvas or oilcloth treking shelter catch fire. I'm not saying it can't or won't happen. Hell, ain't anything 100 % mountain man, or cowboy proof . Our forefathers had the materials and the knowledge needed to make oilcloth, and I feel they did in climates where it was appropriate. Besides that, we just aren't nearly as tough as they were. The very best of us wouldn't make a pimple on Bridger's arse. Not saying we shouldn't strive to be as historically accurate as possible, but the fact is we live in a totally different world. I don't think it is wrong to use a water-resistant shelter in order to be able to get up and go to work on mon. morning. My $0.02 worth, Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 14 Dec 2001 10:16:25 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C18488.631936A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Charlie, Why are you guys messing with all these different things to age brass = when your shooting black powder, use your dirty wet cleaning patches and = wipe the brass to the appearance you want, wipe it enough and it will = get close to black, plus it stays on. This is an old method that I saw = and was told about thirty years ago in one of Turner Kirkland's old = Dixie Gun Works catalogs. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Charlie Webb=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 12:01 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Dave, you are the only one talking about a black end product from using a sulfide finish. Everyone that has submitted a method for a patina look for brass furniture has written that after the application of their favorite=20 agent, they buff, rub, steel wool or what ever, the brass part to the desired look. The desired look and the finished part is not black! I totally agree that the finish is not a true aged oxide finish, but it can and does come very close to the look of the oxided finish. ("that does not look like crap") ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C18488.631936A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Charlie,
 
Why are you guys messing = with all these=20 different things to age brass when your shooting black powder, use your = dirty=20 wet cleaning patches and wipe the brass to the appearance you want, = wipe it=20 enough and it will get close to black, plus it stays on. This is an old = method=20 that I saw and was told about thirty years ago in one of Turner = Kirkland's=20 old Dixie Gun Works catalogs.
 
Take care,
Buck=20 Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the = price of=20 liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Charlie Webb=20
Sent: Saturday, December 08, = 2001 12:01=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass=20 parts
 
Dave, you are the only one talking about a black end
product from using a sulfide finish.  Everyone that = has
submitted a method for a patina  look for brass = furniture
has written that after the application of their favorite
agent, they buff, rub, steel wool or what ever,  the = brass
part to the desired look.  The desired look and the = finished
part is not black!  I  totally agree that the finish is = not=20 a
true aged oxide finish, but it can and does come very close
to the look of the oxided finish. ("that does not look like = crap")
 
------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C18488.631936A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........ Date: 14 Dec 2001 10:29:08 -0700 What Mike says is so true, saw a kid with a TC 45 cal. take the 1st shot on Dad's 2000 lb. bull (Dad being a good guy and all) and drop it cold, then I have had a cow go nuts and try and run everything down that moved and take 6 shots to kill her, my mistake had several gut shots in all the excitement. Again as Mike has mentioned don't ever miss a chance to go on a buff hunt. Someone mentioned Jack Garner - took him on his first buff hunt along with Glen Jones and Freddie Harris (all gun builders from the south), little different than shootin' little southern deer for those boys, lots of gut shots, biggest problem is they stand there and look and don't reload until you slap them in the butt with a ramrod . Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 7:08 AM > It is amazing to me how different a buffalo can react when > shot. I seen a green pilgrim with a 50 cal TC knock one down > and not have his get up. And then I been in chases when on foot and in a > truck that took four hours in snow/rain/sleet to get him. I know of friends > which have had them charge when shot- aah, just like the old days! > Any time that you have a chance to go on a buffalo hunt do it. > Nothing can teach you more about history than doing it. I am still amazed > at how much blood a single animal can hold. But the chase, the meat and > good friends can make for a experience that lasts a life time. > mike. > > NaugaMok@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 12/7/01 3:09:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > > > > << I've never killed a buffler with a trade gun before but I used to work > > on > > the Woolaroc Museum in the early '70s and I know they take a lot of killing. > > >> > > > > A friend killed a 4 yr old bull 3 years ago with a .54 cal. Took 8 shots > > before it fell. He THOUGHT he was missing, but couldn't see how. Autopsy > > showed all 8 shots had hit vital organs. Yep! I'd say they were a might > > tough to kill! > > > > NM > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........ Date: 14 Dec 2001 10:35:00 -0700 NM, I have taken 8 buffalo with tradeguns, 2 with rifled guns and 2 with a Sharps 40/70 2-1/10 bottleneck and 400 grain bullet, I'll take a tradegun every time, it's hard to beat those .600 round balls with 85 grains of 3F. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 1:10 AM > In a message dated 12/7/01 3:09:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, > dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > > << I've never killed a buffler with a trade gun before but I used to work on > the Woolaroc Museum in the early '70s and I know they take a lot of killing. > >> > > A friend killed a 4 yr old bull 3 years ago with a .54 cal. Took 8 shots > before it fell. He THOUGHT he was missing, but couldn't see how. Autopsy > showed all 8 shots had hit vital organs. Yep! I'd say they were a might > tough to kill! > > NM > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 14 Dec 2001 10:45:33 -0700 Magpie, NO, NO, NO - don't reload fast yet, when the pressure is on with a buffalo running at you full bore, you have more important things to do, like taking a second shot with the extra gun you have laying on the ground. Believe me the old timers had several guns (if not back up shooters) when meat hunting or on a stand, do the same, I always take a pair of guns (tradeguns), and practice shooting the main gun - then laying it down to the side of you (so you don't fall over it) and knowing where the second weapon is with out taking your eyes off your target and then make the second shot. Like shooting anything, with the 1st hit the game is starting to good into shock, so hit it again fast before it has a chance to get it's second wind, that's when the crap hits the fan. Been there - done that. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 10:45 PM > > In a message dated 12/7/01 11:52:40 AM, hiparoo@yahoo.com writes: > > << Thanks for the good wishes,etc. from my friends. The > .62 didn't "drop" this bull-2nd shot from >> > > Don't dispair Mitch! I've shot moose, caribou, deer and bear with a 50cal > flinter, and it's a rare thing to "drop" them. All the old reports I've read > on shooting buffalo, indicates they're pretty darn tuff. On the big mean one, > reload fast...... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re Treated Canvas and shelters Date: 14 Dec 2001 10:19:14 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- > I admit to the use of a treated canvas > around my bedroll, which adds comfort and insurance against any minor > leakage from my untreated shelter, but I believe once you have lived in the > woods for many weeks, you become accustomed to being somewhat damp and > greasy, and such luxuries are less important. I read with interest the above post. I recall a summer long past in the Pacific Northwest, where I walked with M16 in hand and rain soaking me from morning to night (Fort Lewis), June through August. After the first week, none of us noticed the rain anymore, it was just part of life. We didn't even notice each other's smell.... until we finally got showers. Course... I was 20 then.... I do have a treated canvas 10x10.... nowadays I usually roll my blankets up in it, and sleep under stars or a tight stretched untreated canvas. Regards from Idaho Lee ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Re shelters, canvas and living outdoors Date: 14 Dec 2001 11:49:59 -0800 Lee Newbill wrote: << I recall a summer long past in the Pacific Northwest, where I walked with M16 in hand and rain soaking me from morning to night (Fort Lewis), June through August. After the first week, none of us noticed the rain anymore, it was just part of life. We didn't even notice each other's smell.... until we finally got showers. Course... I was 20 then.... >> I have made it past that first week and experienced this effect, but not for a whole summer. This kind of first-person input is very much in keeping with the spirit of "living history" and why some of us try to be "modern mountain men" if only for brief periods. "Non-period" episodes of prolonged roughing it are valuable for this reason. When I was getting started, people told me that being comfortable in primitive conditions was as much a matter of attitude as physical training. I have found that much of "acclimatizing" is in simply knowing what to expect, (or not expect), rather than physical hardiness as such. One needs to be in minimum condition to get along, but "being prepared" for typical conditions and their effects seems to matter more. And regarding the "20's effect" - let us not forget most of the mountain men were about that age in their heyday. Daniel Boone came out west in his 80's, but my general impression is that mountain men retired from the wilderness by the age of 50 or so. We can do better these days since we stay out only briefly and have many comforts and aids in between, but the "aging of the corps" is a notable problem. Let's hope we can continue to get young people interested in experiencing the glory of the wilderness on its own terms. Pat Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 14 Dec 2001 15:18:46 -0700 I have tried to find some evidence of canvas or some such documentation in bedding to no avail. On a horse trip with the Poison River Party in 99 I slept on blankets alone. It only rained during the day and I never slept any the worse but it was pleasant weather. But damn the debris; all kinds of grass and plant material, pieces of bark, and dirt. It got all over the blankets and had to be cleaned off before saddling up. Here is Ruxton’s commentary: We ourselves suffered extremely, turning constantly, and rolling almost into the embers of the scanty fire; and towards daybreak I really thought I should have frozen bodily. My bedding consisted of two blankets -one of them a very thin one, which was all I had between my body and the snow; and the other, first soaked with the sleet and afterwards frozen stiff and hard, was more like a board than a blanket, and was in that state no protection against the cold It appears clear that he claimed to not have the protection of canvas but he did start out in Mexico and used the Mexican method of packing his horses not a sawbuck. If I remember Russell also bragged of the one blanket theory with no meantion of a ground cloth. Even Zenas when he quoted Fitspatrick’s tale of escape from the Indians says “. The loss of my blanket was also severe, as the weather was sometimes quite cold, and I had no other clothing than a shirt and vest - having thrown the rest away when pursued by the Indians on the mountain.” Note: it is “blanket” that is meantioned many times not bedding. I know the arguments that logic dictates but if we are talking documentation I will be happy to have someone prove me wrong. I will also state that I believe that the RMFT used to go on vacations of sort. On these trips to hunt, explore or trap they frequentally traveled lighter than usual and I believe that it is these trips that we often get the detailed accounts of. Maybe they were just tougher than I am but the idea of lying down in the snow without some kind of ground cloth is more than I can bare. Reading Ruxton recently it impressed on me how mentally tough they must have been. In my adventures I have been plenty wet and cold but I always knew there was some kind of warmth and shelter at the end of the day if I could get to it. Traveling for days knowing that not only would there be a severe camp at the end of the day but not even knowing if there was ever going to be a cheery warm camp at journeys end is daunting beyond belief. Well I guess I have rambled enough. Wynn Ormond Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Nancy McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: poster...off topic Date: 14 Dec 2001 17:15:53 -0600 To all, I just came across a poster that you might like to own. The picture is on page 13 of the newest Readers Digest and can be seen by going to www.poster.rd.com It measures 22x28 inches and is a picture of a group of firefighters hanging an American flag from a lightpost during the trade center disaster. 7.95 covers the poster AND shipping and handling. The article says that the poster is offered on a not for profit basis. Least we not forget. Thanks for this opportunity, John ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 14 Dec 2001 16:22:51 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_1379.443f.072d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Buck, Your post is nearly vertbatum to my original post. The other stuff mentioned does work, but why go out and buy something when you already can achieve the same end result with a fouled/dirty cleaning patch. As Hawk would say, nuff said! Take care, Old Coyote Hey Charlie, Why are you guys messing with all these different things to age brass when your shooting black powder, use your dirty wet cleaning patches and wipe the brass to the appearance you want, wipe it enough and it will get close to black, plus it stays on. This is an old method that I saw and was told about thirty years ago in one of Turner Kirkland's old Dixie Gun Works catalogs. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----__JNP_000_1379.443f.072d Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Buck,
Your post is nearly vertbatum to my original
post.  The other stuff  mentioned does work,
but why go out and buy something when you
already can achieve the same end result with a
fouled/dirty cleaning patch.  As Hawk would
say, nuff said!
Take care,
Old Coyote
 
 
 
 
Hey Charlie,
 
Why are you guys messing = with all=20 these different things to age brass when your shooting black powder, use = your=20 dirty wet cleaning patches and wipe the brass to the appearance you = want,=20 wipe it enough and it will get close to black, plus it stays on. This is = an=20 old method that I saw and was told about thirty years ago in one of= =20 Turner Kirkland's old Dixie Gun Works catalogs.
 
Take care,
Buck=20 Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the = price of=20 liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771
 
----__JNP_000_1379.443f.072d-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps Date: 14 Dec 2001 16:29:16 -0700 C.Kent asked about dogs in trappers camp. There is some stuff in the archives but I have seen some since. I recalled one occasion that Ferris mentioned a small dog and while looking it up I found two others. These of course refer to dogs with trappers not the many mentions when with Indians. (A wounded trapper came into camp on his wounded mule) After recovering his wonted control over the faculties of speech, he gave us the following particulars of the affair, which was ever afterwards facetiously termed "Milman's Defeat." Whilst jogging along, three or four miles from camp, and calculating the probable sum total of dollars he should accumulate from the sales of furs he purposed taking from his traps that morning, his dog suddenly commenced barking at some invisible object which he supposed to be a squirrel, badger, or some other small animal, that had taken refuge in its burrow. Satisfied of his own sagacity in arriving at this conclusion, he advanced thoughtlessly, until he reached the top of a gently - ascending knoll, whence, to his utter astonishment and dismay, he discovered the heads of seven or eight Indians, peeping ferociously up from a patch of sage, not thirty steps beyond him, and at the same instant three guns were fired at him, by way of introduction (On another occasion) On the 18th we continued twenty miles up the valley, and saw numbers of rabbits, which were pursued in various directions by our dogs, as well as a herd of elk; yet our hunters were unable to kill anything (This was the one I went looking for. I believe there were three trappers with one out checking traps when their camp is overrun by unwelcome guests. The trappers removed themselves and. . . .) Fortunately for us, the Indians had mistaken the course of our flight, and were some distance below, when we entered the open plain; but they quickly discovered us, and gave chase, as we penetrated the forest; finding that the timber continued we pushed forward, and at length crept into a dense thicket, hoping to elude them thus, but we were again discovered by the barking of a little dog with us, and forced to seek another place to hide in; we finally halted in a dark shadowed thicket, and choaked the dog to silence Hope this help Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 15 Dec 2001 00:02:21 +0000 Howdy fellows, Let's kick this dead horse and see if he'll gallop. To each his own method, whatever works for ya. Don >From: Charlie Webb >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts >Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:22:51 -0700 > >Hi Buck, >Your post is nearly vertbatum to my original >post. The other stuff mentioned does work, >but why go out and buy something when you >already can achieve the same end result with a >fouled/dirty cleaning patch. As Hawk would >say, nuff said! >Take care, >Old Coyote > > > > >Hey Charlie, > >Why are you guys messing with all these different things to age brass >when your shooting black powder, use your dirty wet cleaning patches and >wipe the brass to the appearance you want, wipe it enough and it will get >close to black, plus it stays on. This is an old method that I saw and >was told about thirty years ago in one of Turner Kirkland's old Dixie Gun >Works catalogs. > >Take care, >Buck Conner > >"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps Date: 14 Dec 2001 20:00:43 -0800 > Wynn Ormond did write.... > but we were again > discovered by the barking of a little dog with us, and forced to seek > another place to hide in; we finally halted in a dark shadowed thicket, > and choaked the dog to silence And that is why, I'm guessing, most folks operationg in small numbers in hostile country didna have a doggie. Chasing off game and alerting the Blackfeet. Regards from Idaho Lee ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps Date: 14 Dec 2001 23:19:25 EST Wynn, Thanks for the input on dogs...and that last tidbit gave me a NEW idea for when the pooch insists on barking for not other reason than to test his vocal chords at 2 a.m.!!! Of course I would not kill him, just give him the "Bart Simpson" throttling till he quieted up!!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 15 Dec 2001 06:32:34 -0700 Hawk you old fa..... how are you, good health I hope. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 8:23 PM > TOF > not the correct response---he isnt asking you about your personal > preferences if he was he would have directed it in that way--- > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Date: 15 Dec 2001 06:53:59 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C18535.45D607A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Charlie, I came in on the tail end of the discussion, are you = guys still having problems with seasons for the CSMLA ? Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Charlie Webb=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 4:22 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass parts Hi Buck, Your post is nearly vertbatum to my original post. The other stuff mentioned does work, but why go out and buy something when you=20 already can achieve the same end result with a fouled/dirty cleaning patch. As Hawk would=20 say, nuff said! Take care, Old Coyote ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C18535.45D607A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Charlie, I came in on the = tail end of=20 the discussion, are you guys still having problems with seasons for the = CSMLA=20 ?
 
Take care,
Buck = Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas = Jefferson=20 1771
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Charlie Webb=20
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 = 4:22=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brass=20 parts

Hi Buck,
Your post is nearly vertbatum to my original
post.  The other stuff  mentioned does work,
but why go out and buy something when you
already can achieve the same end result with a
fouled/dirty cleaning patch.  As Hawk would
say, nuff said!
Take care,
Old Coyote
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C18535.45D607A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Fremont Date: 15 Dec 2001 16:09:03 +0000 Howdy fellows, For those interested in Mountain Men both Delawares and whites, I found Freemont's Memoirs on-line. Maybe Dean could add this to the library on the Mountain Man Page. Here's the URL: http://moa.umdl.umich.edu/cgi/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=AAZ9580 Enjoy the read, Don Secondine in the Ohio Country _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo kill........ Date: 15 Dec 2001 10:01:23 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 12:45 PM > If you think it's easy to stand real close to an entire herd of > buffalo(approx. 100hd),obviously you've never done it. > 'Nuff said.... Does get your attention with watching the one your shooting and it's friends watching you. > I've not done much shooting in this > part of the country yet-I'm used to hunting in > Montana..LOTS dryer. I'd appreciate any input > you might have-or anyone else that has something > constructive to add-I'm using a patched .595ball,85gr > 3f Goex. > Got the big,nasty bull to kill soon....... > Mitch Where are you use to shooting at in MT and where did you take this animal being dryer ? As far as your combination, that will kill anything that needs it just fine, ball placement is where it's at, always has been and always will be, know your gun. The conditions you normally shoot at and where you did this shooting may have affected your results also. I hunt and shoot at a mile high and when I go east down around Ft. de Chartre ILL my weapons work totally different - ignition, sighting and so on. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont Date: 15 Dec 2001 10:02:02 -0700 Hey Don, Have you heard from Ken Wee lately ? Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:09 AM > Howdy fellows, > For those interested in Mountain Men both Delawares and whites, I found > Freemont's Memoirs on-line. Maybe Dean could add this to the library on the > Mountain Man Page. Here's the URL: > > http://moa.umdl.umich.edu/cgi/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=AAZ9580 > Enjoy the read, > Don Secondine in the Ohio Country > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: MtMan-List: One more time- brass parts Date: 15 Dec 2001 09:52:31 -0700 Hey Dave, Been awhile since I've been on the list, just retired and thought would see what's going on - now with some free time. I agree with you on making the brass dark or black, I use the patches after shooting to tone down the brass (mellow yellow), bright brass will sure give your location to game animals or any other animal when moving about in the woods here in the Rockies. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 1:32 PM > I'm glad everyone likes black brass. It looks like crap, and no original gun > I've ever seen has it. All you are doing is putting a sulfide coating on it. > When brass ages, it acquires a nice mellow, brownish-gold patina through > normal oxidation. In other words, it just gets darker and might have a tinge > of green in it. It also shows wear marks from normal usage where your hand > or shoulder rubs certain areas. Any gun with black brass, other than the > nosecap, is a result of a guy slopping water from the barrel all over the gun > when he cleans it. Aging is an oxide coating, not a sulfide coating. > > The traditional way of taking the shine off new brass, mentioned in several > period references, was to rub it with green hazelnut hulls. > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont Date: 15 Dec 2001 12:13:26 -0500 Buck Funny you should mention Mr Wee... He is getting me in trouble in a wee bit (scuse the pun)... I had a request from "She Who Had Probably Be Obeyed" to see if I could make some headway in the basement this morning while she was at work.. All started out fine, until I can across my box with the bow YOU traded me and a handful of target arrows... Tempted, but had to work.... Then I came across some throw pillows that were slated for the dump, then a hunk of Styrofoam reared it's ugly head.. I couldn't ressist.. I grabbed all and headed out the door, tossed the pillows off the hill and the Styrofoam and have spent until a few minutes ago having a time!.Skewering rogue pillows and killer Styrofoam..... The Bow is plum. And Gwen will be home in 20 minutes or so.........And it is your fault that I didn't get any work done.. D "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont Date: 15 Dec 2001 17:29:21 +0000 He' Buck, Good to hear from ya. Lost track for awhile. I see you got a new E- mail address. No, I haven't found Ken yet. Are you fellas floatin' down the Missouri to De Chartes come green up? Luppitch Knewelch, Don Secondine >From: "BARRY CONNER" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:02:02 -0700 > >Hey Don, > >Have you heard from Ken Wee lately ? > >Take care, >Buck Conner >"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "darlene secondine" >To: >Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:09 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: Fremont > > > > Howdy fellows, > > For those interested in Mountain Men both Delawares and whites, I >found > > Freemont's Memoirs on-line. Maybe Dean could add this to the library on >the > > Mountain Man Page. Here's the URL: > > > > http://moa.umdl.umich.edu/cgi/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=AAZ9580 > > Enjoy the read, > > Don Secondine in the Ohio Country > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: MtMan-List: CSMLA Date: 15 Dec 2001 15:50:22 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_5a69.24ac.0253 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy again Buck, Things with the CSMLA are a bit bumpy right now. The Wildlife representative elected at last Winter Con. appears to be doing absolutely nothing. There has not been a wild life report since RD Wood left office. I Felt that the New President and board would be very strong in 2001 and that the Wildlife guy would lose us precious hard fought for ground, unfortunately, I was correct. CSMLA has lost much of it's former creditability with the Commission, since the inline ruleing was reversed by threats of the "big money" manufacturers. Muzzleloading in Colorado has been rapidly going down the tube since that reversal of policy by the DOW. One of the Northeastern clubs thought they had all of the answers so stuffed the election with their cronies and pretty much took over everything. They rule Winter Con. and Rocky Mtn. College and have the board stacked with their reps. My wife and I pulled out a couple of year ago when we realized what was happening and that we could do virtually nothing to change things. We are still members, but no longer on the board. The Wildlife Commission makes no attempt to hide the fact the ML Season is a pain for them and would like to do away with it. T Knight, Thompson -Center, Remington and Ruger with their free flowing money have the Commission and the DOW in their pockets. The CSMLA has virtually no chance of positive input to the Commission unless we come up with a way to match the funds spent on them by the manufacturers to wine them and dine them. CSMLA is simply a burr under their blanket, nothing but an annoyance to them in past couple of years. What a waste of all yours and many others work over the years. Dell M. is gone, we seldom see Ray E. he left over the inline controversy as did Duane B. Al Main is still holding up what colors are left. State Shoot is holding it's own, approximately 100 shooters plus or minus. (We average 350 shooters for the Colorado Spgs. Muzzle Loaders Memorial Day Shoot.) I personally believe that part of the problem is the old timers are tired, burned out or what ever, and we have practically no young people to fill the voids when someone drops by the wayside. Same goes with NMLRA and most of the Colorado clubs, their membership has very few members under fifty. It seems that todays younger shooters want to go bangbangbangbangbangbang and bang, not klick swish Kaboom. You would be shocked how many ex muzzleloaders (including myself) are doing Cow Boy Action Shooting rather than fight the existing muzzle loading politics. Wish I had better news, but I don't! Catch ya later, A tired Old Coyote Charlie, I came in on the tail end of the discussion, are you guys still having problems with seasons for the CSMLA ? ----__JNP_000_5a69.24ac.0253 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howdy again Buck,
Things with the CSMLA are a bit bumpy right
now.  The Wildlife representative elected at last
Winter Con. appears to be doing absolutely
nothing.  There has not been a wild life report
since RD Wood left office.  I Felt that the New
President and board would be very strong in
2001 and that the Wildlife guy would lose us
precious hard fought for ground, unfortunately,
I was correct. 
 
CSMLA has lost much of it's
former creditability with the Commission, since
the inline ruleing was reversed by threats of
the "big money" manufacturers. Muzzleloading in
Colorado has been rapidly going down the tube
since that reversal of policy by the DOW.
 
One of the Northeastern clubs thought they had
all of the answers so stuffed the election with
their cronies and pretty much took over everything.
They rule Winter Con. and Rocky Mtn. College
and have the board stacked with their reps.
 
My wife and I pulled out a couple of year ago
when we realized what was happening and that
we could do virtually nothing to change things.
We are still members, but no longer on the board.
 
The Wildlife Commission makes no attempt to hide
the fact the ML Season is a pain for them and
would like to do away with it.  T Knight, Thompson
-Center, Remington and Ruger  with their free
flowing money have the Commission and the DOW
in their pockets.  The CSMLA has virtually no
chance of positive input to the Commission unless we
come up with a way to match the funds spent on them
by the manufacturers to wine them and dine them. 
 
CSMLA  is simply a burr under their blanket,
nothing but an annoyance to them in past couple of years.
What a waste of all yours and  many others  work
over the years. Dell M. is gone, we seldom see Ray E. 
he left over the inline controversy as did Duane B.  Al Main
is still holding up what colors are left.  State Shoot is=20 holding
it's own, approximately 100 shooters plus or minus. 
(We average 350 shooters for the  Colorado Spgs.
Muzzle Loaders Memorial Day Shoot.)
 
I personally believe that part of the problem is the old
timers are tired, burned out or what ever, and we have
practically no young people to fill the voids when someone
drops by the wayside.  Same goes with NMLRA and
most of the Colorado clubs, their membership has very few
members under fifty.   It seems that todays younger=20 shooters
want to go bangbangbangbangbangbang and bang, not
klick swish Kaboom.  You would be shocked how many
ex muzzleloaders (including myself) are doing Cow Boy
Action Shooting rather than fight the existing muzzle loading
politics.
 
Wish I had better news, but I don't!
Catch ya later,
A tired Old Coyote
 
 
Charlie, I came in on the tail end of = the=20 discussion, are you guys still having problems with seasons for the CSMLA=20 ?
----__JNP_000_5a69.24ac.0253-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont Date: 15 Dec 2001 16:37:32 -0700 He' Don, I'll try and run him down, Monsieur LaVelle wants to do some brain tanning between the holidays and we maybe able to get Ken to come down from his lodge. Would be a good chance to let him cleanup a bit, he's been living in the tipi since this past spring on government property above Boulder, has something about paying out money for rent, you know him - different. We did a trip from Bonnet's Mill MO early this spring down to the fort to see Frenchy and Hacker haven't decided about this spring, but will let you know. Our Party is hosting the AMM Nationals so if a trip would be in the works in would be after that probably in July ? Kulamali Haqh? say it - for those wanting to know (Koo-la-mal-si hahch) is that correct Don ? Means "Do you feel well ?" [Lennie Lenape] Nulamalsi (No-la-mal-si) - "I feel well." We have changed our URL's as [about.com] has changed their policies on size and amount of usage, etc. please make the needed changes to your favorite links, thanks. My email has also changed to Buck Conner conner_one@msn.com New URLs are: Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com O'Connor/Connor/Conner History: http://conner110.tripod.com/family.htm Clark & Sons Mercantile: just sold last summer to Paul Jones, he's added a bunch to the wares. http://www.clarkandsons.com/ Daniel"Concho"Smith's site: Historical Research & Development http://hrd7.tripod.com since I retired the last of this November Concho has been here from PA trying to get me to do the rendezvous circuit with him, sounds like much work. Peter "GooseBay" Goebel: http://goosebayworkshops.com/ Peter has moved to Delaware and now has his own web site and a retail store next to his shop. His email is: gbwcopper@aol.com Take care, Buck "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:29 AM > He' Buck, > Good to hear from ya. Lost track for awhile. I see you got a new E- mail > address. No, I haven't found Ken yet. Are you fellas floatin' down the > Missouri to De Chartes come green up? > Luppitch Knewelch, > Don Secondine > > > >From: "BARRY CONNER" > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont > >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:02:02 -0700 > > > >Hey Don, > > > >Have you heard from Ken Wee lately ? > > > >Take care, > >Buck Conner > >"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "darlene secondine" > >To: > >Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:09 AM > >Subject: MtMan-List: Fremont > > > > > > > Howdy fellows, > > > For those interested in Mountain Men both Delawares and whites, I > >found > > > Freemont's Memoirs on-line. Maybe Dean could add this to the library on > >the > > > Mountain Man Page. Here's the URL: > > > > > > http://moa.umdl.umich.edu/cgi/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=AAZ9580 > > > Enjoy the read, > > > Don Secondine in the Ohio Country > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont Date: 15 Dec 2001 16:16:56 -0700 Dennis, "I know nothing". But if the boss asks I'll send her this email kid. Damn things are fun aren't they. Take care, Buck "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:13 AM > Buck > Funny you should mention Mr Wee... He is getting me in trouble in a wee bit > (scuse the pun)... I had a request from "She Who Had Probably Be Obeyed" to > see if I could make some headway in the basement this morning while she was > at work.. All started out fine, until I can across my box with the bow YOU > traded me and a handful of target arrows... Tempted, but had to work.... > Then I came across some throw pillows that were slated for the dump, then a > hunk of Styrofoam reared it's ugly head.. I couldn't ressist.. I grabbed all > and headed out the door, tossed the pillows off the hill and the Styrofoam > and have spent until a few minutes ago having a time!.Skewering rogue > pillows and killer Styrofoam..... The Bow is plum. And Gwen will be home in > 20 minutes or so.........And it is your fault that I didn't get any work > done.. > D > > > "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty > than to those attending too small a degree of it." > - Thomas Jefferson > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CSMLA Date: 15 Dec 2001 16:43:23 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C18587.9CB6F640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Charlie, I'm sad to hear this, but what you state is what happens, few want to = work and those that do wear out after years of fighting the money = lobbyist, crap. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Charlie Webb=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 3:50 PM Subject: MtMan-List: CSMLA Howdy again Buck, Things with the CSMLA are a bit bumpy right now. The Wildlife representative elected at last Winter Con. appears to be doing absolutely nothing. There has not been a wild life report since RD Wood left office. I Felt that the New=20 President and board would be very strong in 2001 and that the Wildlife guy would lose us=20 precious hard fought for ground, unfortunately, I was correct.=20 CSMLA has lost much of it's former creditability with the Commission, since the inline ruleing was reversed by threats of the "big money" manufacturers. Muzzleloading in Colorado has been rapidly going down the tube since that reversal of policy by the DOW. One of the Northeastern clubs thought they had all of the answers so stuffed the election with their cronies and pretty much took over everything. They rule Winter Con. and Rocky Mtn. College and have the board stacked with their reps. My wife and I pulled out a couple of year ago when we realized what was happening and that we could do virtually nothing to change things. We are still members, but no longer on the board. The Wildlife Commission makes no attempt to hide the fact the ML Season is a pain for them and=20 would like to do away with it. T Knight, Thompson=20 -Center, Remington and Ruger with their free=20 flowing money have the Commission and the DOW in their pockets. The CSMLA has virtually no chance of positive input to the Commission unless we come up with a way to match the funds spent on them by the manufacturers to wine them and dine them. =20 CSMLA is simply a burr under their blanket, nothing but an annoyance to them in past couple of years. What a waste of all yours and many others work=20 over the years. Dell M. is gone, we seldom see Ray E. =20 he left over the inline controversy as did Duane B. Al Main is still holding up what colors are left. State Shoot is holding it's own, approximately 100 shooters plus or minus. =20 (We average 350 shooters for the Colorado Spgs. Muzzle Loaders Memorial Day Shoot.) I personally believe that part of the problem is the old=20 timers are tired, burned out or what ever, and we have=20 practically no young people to fill the voids when someone=20 drops by the wayside. Same goes with NMLRA and=20 most of the Colorado clubs, their membership has very few=20 members under fifty. It seems that todays younger shooters want to go bangbangbangbangbangbang and bang, not=20 klick swish Kaboom. You would be shocked how many ex muzzleloaders (including myself) are doing Cow Boy=20 Action Shooting rather than fight the existing muzzle loading politics. Wish I had better news, but I don't! Catch ya later, A tired Old Coyote Charlie, I came in on the tail end of the discussion, are you guys = still having problems with seasons for the CSMLA ? ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C18587.9CB6F640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Charlie,
I'm sad to hear this, but what you = state is=20 what happens, few want to work and those that do wear out after years of = fighting the money lobbyist, crap.
 
Take care,
Buck = Conner
"Eternal=20 vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson = 1771
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Charlie Webb=20
Sent: Saturday, December 15, = 2001 3:50=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = CSMLA

Howdy again Buck,
Things with the CSMLA are a bit bumpy right
now.  The Wildlife representative elected at last
Winter Con. appears to be doing absolutely
nothing.  There has not been a wild life report
since RD Wood left office.  I Felt that the New
President and board would be very strong in
2001 and that the Wildlife guy would lose us
precious hard fought for ground, unfortunately,
I was correct. 
 
CSMLA has lost much of it's
former creditability with the Commission, since
the inline ruleing was reversed by threats of
the "big money" manufacturers. Muzzleloading in
Colorado has been rapidly going down the tube
since that reversal of policy by the DOW.
 
One of the Northeastern clubs thought they had
all of the answers so stuffed the election with
their cronies and pretty much took over everything.
They rule Winter Con. and Rocky Mtn. College
and have the board stacked with their reps.
 
My wife and I pulled out a couple of year ago
when we realized what was happening and that
we could do virtually nothing to change things.
We are still members, but no longer on the board.
 
The Wildlife Commission makes no attempt to hide
the fact the ML Season is a pain for them and
would like to do away with it.  T Knight, Thompson
-Center, Remington and Ruger  with their free
flowing money have the Commission and the DOW
in their pockets.  The CSMLA has virtually no
chance of positive input to the Commission unless we
come up with a way to match the funds spent on = them
by the manufacturers to wine them and dine them. 
 
CSMLA  is simply a burr under their blanket,
nothing but an annoyance to them in past couple of = years.
What a waste of all yours and  many others  work
over the years. Dell M. is gone, we seldom see Ray E.  =
he left over the inline controversy as did Duane B.  Al = Main
is still holding up what colors are left.  State Shoot is=20 holding
it's own, approximately 100 shooters plus or minus. 
(We average 350 shooters for the  Colorado Spgs.
Muzzle Loaders Memorial Day Shoot.)
 
I personally believe that part of the problem is the old
timers are tired, burned out or what ever, and we have
practically no young people to fill the voids when someone
drops by the wayside.  Same goes with NMLRA and
most of the Colorado clubs, their membership has very few
members under fifty.   It seems that todays younger=20 shooters
want to go bangbangbangbangbangbang and bang, not
klick swish Kaboom.  You would be shocked how many
ex muzzleloaders (including myself) are doing Cow Boy
Action Shooting rather than fight the existing muzzle = loading
politics.
 
Wish I had better news, but I don't!
Catch ya later,
A tired Old Coyote
 
 
Charlie, I came in on the tail end = of the=20 discussion, are you guys still having problems with seasons for the = CSMLA=20 ?
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C18587.9CB6F640-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 15 Dec 2001 18:56:01 EST In a message dated 12/14/01 9:46:57 AM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes: << NO, NO, NO - don't reload fast yet, when the pressure is on with a buffalo running at you full bore, you have more important things to do, like taking a second shot with the extra gun you have laying on the ground. >> Haaaaa......you mean ya got more than one gun!!!!!?! Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont Date: 16 Dec 2001 00:03:33 +0000 Buck, Yes sir, your Lenape is correct. And thanks for the new site addresses. When ya see Ken, tell him I moved to Ohio. And if you guys go to Ft. deChartes, I'll see ya there. Your friend, Don >From: "BARRY CONNER" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:37:32 -0700 > >He' Don, > >I'll try and run him down, Monsieur LaVelle wants to do some brain tanning >between the holidays and we maybe able to get Ken to come down from his >lodge. Would be a good chance to let him cleanup a bit, he's been living in >the tipi since this past spring on government property above Boulder, has >something about paying out money for rent, you know him - different. > >We did a trip from Bonnet's Mill MO early this spring down to the fort to >see Frenchy and Hacker haven't decided about this spring, but will let you >know. Our Party is hosting the AMM Nationals so if a trip would be in the >works in would be after that probably in July ? > >Kulamali Haqh? say it - for those wanting to know (Koo-la-mal-si hahch) is >that correct Don ? Means "Do you feel well ?" [Lennie Lenape] > >Nulamalsi (No-la-mal-si) - "I feel well." > >We have changed our URL's as [about.com] has changed their policies on size >and amount of usage, etc. please make the needed changes to your favorite >links, thanks. > >My email has also changed to Buck Conner conner_one@msn.com > >New URLs are: > >Buck's Base Camp: http://buckconner.tripod.com > >Historical Research: http://conner110.tripod.com > >O'Connor/Connor/Conner History: http://conner110.tripod.com/family.htm > >Clark & Sons Mercantile: just sold last summer to Paul Jones, he's added a >bunch to the wares. >http://www.clarkandsons.com/ > >Daniel"Concho"Smith's site: Historical Research & Development >http://hrd7.tripod.com since I retired the last of this November Concho >has been here from PA trying to get me to do the rendezvous circuit with >him, sounds like much work. > >Peter "GooseBay" Goebel: http://goosebayworkshops.com/ Peter has moved >to >Delaware and now has his own web site and a retail store next to his shop. >His email is: gbwcopper@aol.com > >Take care, >Buck >"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 >--------------------------------------------------- >----- Original Message ----- >From: "darlene secondine" >To: >Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 10:29 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont > > > > He' Buck, > > Good to hear from ya. Lost track for awhile. I see you got a new E- >mail > > address. No, I haven't found Ken yet. Are you fellas floatin' down the > > Missouri to De Chartes come green up? > > Luppitch Knewelch, > > Don Secondine > > > > > > >From: "BARRY CONNER" > > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont > > >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:02:02 -0700 > > > > > >Hey Don, > > > > > >Have you heard from Ken Wee lately ? > > > > > >Take care, > > >Buck Conner > > >"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "darlene secondine" > > >To: > > >Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 9:09 AM > > >Subject: MtMan-List: Fremont > > > > > > > > > > Howdy fellows, > > > > For those interested in Mountain Men both Delawares and whites, I > > >found > > > > Freemont's Memoirs on-line. Maybe Dean could add this to the library >on > > >the > > > > Mountain Man Page. Here's the URL: > > > > > > > > http://moa.umdl.umich.edu/cgi/sgml/moa-idx?notisid=AAZ9580 > > > > Enjoy the read, > > > > Don Secondine in the Ohio Country > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: >http://messenger.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > > http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont Date: 15 Dec 2001 18:52:37 -0500 Buck... What email?? D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont Date: 16 Dec 2001 06:44:14 -0700 I know nothing !!! Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 4:52 PM > Buck... > What email?? > D > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont Date: 16 Dec 2001 06:46:50 -0700 When I see Wee I'll tell "HI" from you. Been along time to write or speak the human language Don. Will let you know what our schedule will be for the fort. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 5:03 PM > Buck, > Yes sir, your Lenape is correct. And thanks for the new site addresses. > When ya see Ken, tell him I moved to Ohio. And if you guys go to Ft. > deChartes, I'll see ya there. > Your friend, > Don > > > >From: "BARRY CONNER" > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fremont > >Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:37:32 -0700 > > > >Kulamali Haqh? say it - for those wanting to know (Koo-la-mal-si hahch) is > >that correct Don ? Means "Do you feel well ?" [Lennie Lenape] > > > >Nulamalsi (No-la-mal-si) - "I feel well." > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 16 Dec 2001 06:48:50 -0700 Many guns when we go, usually have 3-4 animals going down at the same time. Easier to have each man carry 2 guns than have to carry his busted butt out. . Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 4:56 PM > > In a message dated 12/14/01 9:46:57 AM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes: > > << NO, NO, NO - don't reload fast yet, when the pressure is on with a buffalo > > running at you full bore, you have more important things to do, like taking > > a second shot with the extra gun you have laying on the ground. >> > > Haaaaa......you mean ya got more than one gun!!!!!?! > > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 16 Dec 2001 22:03:50 EST In a message dated 12/16/01 8:35:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: << Buff can be very unpredictable, and they can turn on a dime at full tilt. Amazing critters. >> According to the park rangers up at Yellowstone, they can hit full speed from a standing start on the second stride or in about 20 feet! If memory serves, "full tilt" is somewhere around 30 - 35 mph. That's faster acceleration than ol' John Force gets on the drag strip & a darn site faster than most of us can run. "Amazing" is a good word! NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 17 Dec 2001 09:38:22 -0700 A friend that raises buffalo to be harvested with muzzleloaders has told me that they can catch a good quarter horse in the first 100 feet or just about anything he knows of. Plus they can turn on a dime and nail your butt if you where lucky enough to side step his first charge and before you could regain your balance when charged again. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 8:03 PM > In a message dated 12/16/01 8:35:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, > dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > > << Buff can be very unpredictable, and they can turn on a dime at full tilt. > Amazing critters. >> > > According to the park rangers up at Yellowstone, they can hit full speed from > a standing start on the second stride or in about 20 feet! If memory serves, > "full tilt" is somewhere around 30 - 35 mph. That's faster acceleration than > ol' John Force gets on the drag strip & a darn site faster than most of us > can run. "Amazing" is a good word! > > NM > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 17 Dec 2001 13:54:16 -0800 (PST) awright i no evurbodies tired of hearin it; but the debate stands. back in about 1980 Mark A. Baker personally told me that on a brigade in the southwest that Kit was among they each started out with 12 sheepskins. as bedding then as winter came they became hates, mittens, vests, ect. baker didn't say the following but it only stands to reason as i have discussed with others, that plews replaced the sheep skins. as they were not in quest of coat furs as today; they were literaly 'fluff seekers'. i mean the down not the guard hair was the desired stuff. so, it didn't matter if ye rolled on em all night for months nor a little beaver fat wallowed in. as far as canvas goes even if we haven't presented documentation as of yet it only makes sense that tallow, beeswax, bayberry wax, or bear grease or something was utilized to keep em out of dampness. even if that ain't no evidence as of yet, you know something other than being cold and damp was done. somethings were so common knowledghe they were not recorded. to give an example to the 'document zealots' the lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover the ground of their tipis; but where is the documentation either in print or art? yet, i found a reference from the youth on pine ridge whom told of what their grandparents had told them. the only trustworthy sources to reference this may be cathy smith or larry belitz; both advisors in 'dances with wolves'. BY THE WAY THE BAYBERRY WAX IS A SEASONAL CANDLE SOLD DURING CHRISTMAS FOR RELIGIOUS RITUAL. SO YE CAN GIT YORE SELF DOWN TO THA LOCAL TRADING POST/ DOLLAR STORE AND GRAB A FEW. I'M SURE SOME SKINNER WILL WANT TO BLEND BEES WAX BAYBERRY WAX, AND TALLOW FOR A WET RESISTANT CANVAS. IF NOT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE USE OF 'PINE PITCH'? OTHER THAN BIRTH BARK CANOES THAT IZ. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID. Date: 17 Dec 2001 14:11:19 -0800 (PST) AS FAR AS AGE MOST- YEP DIED BEFORE 30. THE FEW LIKE BRIDGER, CARSON AND BOoNE ARE THE RARITYS. RHEMATISM AND AUTHURITIS HIT EM HARD BY THE LATE 30'S AND 40'S(AGE THAT IS)as wadin streams made stiff joints. THUS THEY WERE RETIRED. ONE HAS TO REMEMBER IN THE 17TH CENTURY IN EUROPE TO LIVE TO 50 OR 60 MEANT YOUR COMMUNITY EXPECTED 'YOU HAD MADE A DEAL WITH THE DEVIL'. INFANT MORTALITY AND DESEASE, COMPOUNDED WITH ACCIDENTS FROM HARDSHIPS TOOK MOST EVERYONE-EARLY. EXAMPLES LIKE COLTER SURVIVING THE WILDERNESS ONLY TO DIE ON HIS FARM OF A COMMON DISEASE BEFORE AGE 35 ARE MORE THE NORM THAN EXCEPTION TO THE RULE. IT MAYBE THAT THE 'TOUGHNESS' WE RECOGNIZE IS JUST A FEW, VERY FEW WHO HAD SURVIVED TO 'OLD AGE'. Mark A. Baker had told me in the early 80's that the longhunters in the east 'bear greased' the hunting shirt's capes in the east because of the drip from canopys and losing body warmth in the upper torso. yep this was those ole buckskin shirts. now if they cared so much about body warmth and staying dry in their clothes according to baker; why wouldn't they provide a reasonable method to guard against a damp camp? maybe tallow anyone? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article Date: 17 Dec 2001 14:33:50 -0800 (PST) i hardily agree that we can not be 100 % period. most of us will have fillings or surgerys that aren't period on our persons. our bodies have digested non organic substances to become what it is. everything is different, evolution and devolution goes on. but the point to this A.M.M. site is to get back to a pre 1840 period and match the standards of those mountainerrs gone under. i too as a greenhorn cany-ace/ass tenterfoot in my 1st year used 'thompson's water seal'. but the point of buckskinning is to recreate the past in camp. i'm not saying we have to go become poachers as they were to the tribes yet licensed by their company they niggered/worked for. but are we not supposed to emulate the way it was done in the FUR TRADE; glorius or non-romanticly done. i personally know of brigades whom now compromise AMM standards by riding modern roping saddles when they are members grossing 50 to 75 K a year. or other cases where a texan AMM member shot a squierel wired down beforehand and he tanned/brained it's skin. BUT ARE THEASE EXAMPLES WORTHY OF EMULATING AND RECREATING THE FUR TRADE MYTH???????? please regard i'm not picking on you, as a greenhorn i did it way back then, and yes compromises are made. show me a californian AMM member who traps in his homestate today and i'll show you a poacher or a offical employee. i realize the skirts have ruined that states ecology and have an effect on all of us. i realize buckskinning to joe normal seems fanatical. but then AMM did should represent the die hard zealots of the fur trade myth. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Spivey, Michael" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 17 Dec 2001 14:33:32 -0800 How about common "Oil Cloth"? It is just linseed (Flax) oil applied to cloth (canvas, cotton, wool, or linen). The linseed oil is allowed to dry (cure) is rubbed or massaged, and in the presense of UV it polymerizes. Oil cloth has been around as long as linseed oil has been used as a wood finish. Just a thought. Mike Spivey Bear Gulch Mountain Men, Cucamonga, Cal -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 1:54 PM awright i no evurbodies tired of hearin it; but the debate stands. back in about 1980 Mark A. Baker personally told me that on a brigade in the southwest that Kit was among they each started out with 12 sheepskins. as bedding then as winter came they became hates, mittens, vests, ect. baker didn't say the following but it only stands to reason as i have discussed with others, that plews replaced the sheep skins. as they were not in quest of coat furs as today; they were literaly 'fluff seekers'. i mean the down not the guard hair was the desired stuff. so, it didn't matter if ye rolled on em all night for months nor a little beaver fat wallowed in. as far as canvas goes even if we haven't presented documentation as of yet it only makes sense that tallow, beeswax, bayberry wax, or bear grease or something was utilized to keep em out of dampness. even if that ain't no evidence as of yet, you know something other than being cold and damp was done. somethings were so common knowledghe they were not recorded. to give an example to the 'document zealots' the lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover the ground of their tipis; but where is the documentation either in print or art? yet, i found a reference from the youth on pine ridge whom told of what their grandparents had told them. the only trustworthy sources to reference this may be cathy smith or larry belitz; both advisors in 'dances with wolves'. BY THE WAY THE BAYBERRY WAX IS A SEASONAL CANDLE SOLD DURING CHRISTMAS FOR RELIGIOUS RITUAL. SO YE CAN GIT YORE SELF DOWN TO THA LOCAL TRADING POST/ DOLLAR STORE AND GRAB A FEW. I'M SURE SOME SKINNER WILL WANT TO BLEND BEES WAX BAYBERRY WAX, AND TALLOW FOR A WET RESISTANT CANVAS. IF NOT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE USE OF 'PINE PITCH'? OTHER THAN BIRTH BARK CANOES THAT IZ. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID. Date: 17 Dec 2001 16:48:18 -0700 Clint, Oh, I must say one of my pet peeves. This one is about the normal ages of the men in the west during the fur trade. Actually, the median age when most of the men died was about 66 years. Which is only slightly less tha what it is today. People were killed young, but majority of them lived good long lives.You can find this age put forth in the Hafen's last book of his set in "A Statical Review" by Richard Fehrman (pages 9 -14, volume 10). He takes all 280+ men wrote about in the ten volumes and gives alot of useful information, on e of which is the average age of death. I went alittle further in a chapter in my book due out in Jan/ Feb about this subject. Some did die young. Pilgrims and ones who only lasted a year or two in the west did not have a long life. But many found the west to be a place that made them stronger and healthier. Most did have joint problems, healed old wounds and scars from run ins with various creatures and people, but the were tough. If any would like to to have a copy of the chapter I did on it, let me know. I will include here a note by Washington Irnving from "A Tour of the Prairies" pages 160-161. It is a note on the guide of his who lived in the west all of his life. October 27, Our man Beatte had come out of his contest with the bear very much worsted and discomfited. His drenching in the brook, together with the recent change of weather, had brought on rheumatic pains in his limbs, to which he is subject. Though ordinarily a fellow of undaunted spirit, and above all hardship, yet he now sat down by the fire, gloomy and dejected, and for once gave way to repining. Though in the prime of life, and of a robust frame, and apparently iron constitution, yet, by his own account, he was little better than a mere wreck. He was, in fact, a living monument of the hardships of wild frontier life. Baring his left arm, he showed it warped and contracted by a former attack of rheumatism; a malady with which the Indians are often afflicted; for their exposure to the vicissitudes of the elements does not produce that perfect hardihood and insensibility to the changes of the seasons that many are apt to imagine. He bore the scars of various maims and bruises; some received in hunting, some in Indian warfare. His right arm had been broken by a fall from his horse; at another time his steed had fallen with him, and crushed his left leg. "I am all broke to pieces and good for nothing," said he; "I no care now what happen to me any more." "However," added he, after a moment's pause, "for all that, it would take a pretty strong man to put me down, anyhow." mike. Clint Garrett wrote: > AS FAR AS AGE MOST- YEP DIED BEFORE 30. THE FEW LIKE > BRIDGER, CARSON AND BOoNE ARE THE RARITYS. RHEMATISM > AND AUTHURITIS HIT EM HARD BY THE LATE 30'S AND > 40'S(AGE THAT IS)as wadin streams made stiff joints. > THUS THEY WERE RETIRED. ONE HAS TO REMEMBER IN THE > 17TH CENTURY IN EUROPE TO LIVE TO 50 OR 60 MEANT YOUR > COMMUNITY EXPECTED 'YOU HAD MADE A DEAL WITH THE > DEVIL'. INFANT MORTALITY AND DESEASE, COMPOUNDED WITH > ACCIDENTS FROM HARDSHIPS TOOK MOST EVERYONE-EARLY. > EXAMPLES LIKE COLTER SURVIVING THE WILDERNESS ONLY TO > DIE ON HIS FARM OF A COMMON DISEASE BEFORE AGE 35 ARE > MORE THE NORM THAN EXCEPTION TO THE RULE. IT MAYBE > THAT THE 'TOUGHNESS' WE RECOGNIZE IS JUST A FEW, VERY > FEW WHO HAD SURVIVED TO 'OLD AGE'. > > Mark A. Baker had told me in the early 80's that the > longhunters in the east 'bear greased' the hunting > shirt's capes in the east because of the drip from > canopys and losing body warmth in the upper torso. > yep this was those ole buckskin shirts. now if they > cared so much about body warmth and staying dry in > their clothes according to baker; why wouldn't they > provide a reasonable method to guard against a damp > camp? > > maybe tallow anyone? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 17 Dec 2001 16:06:53 -0800 > back in about 1980 Mark A. Baker personally told me > that on a brigade in the southwest that Kit was among > they each started out with 12 sheepskins. as bedding > then as winter came they became hates, mittens, vests, > ect. Clint, I've got some sheep skins too and depending on how they are used, they will last not very long. Were I to pack them around as bedding for a whole year, I suppose that by spring they would be suitable for storing my hooks and flies in. Now a Buffalo robe is somewhat different and a brained and smoked robe is a whole nother story. So why are we talking about sheep skins? > > baker didn't say the following but it only stands to > reason as i have discussed with others, that plews > replaced the sheep skins. No it does not stand to reason. Not unless that is all you had. A trapper would have access to buffalo, deer, elk, Big Horn and etc. to make up for beding not to mention the blankets mentioned by many. Why on earth would anyone sleep in their money? Don't make sense to me. And the guard hairs are just the first to go. It doesn't take long to wear off the inner fur and then you have a worthless pelt. Nope, doesn't stand to reason not one bit. > as far as canvas goes even if we haven't presented > documentation as of yet it only makes sense that > tallow, beeswax, bayberry wax, or bear grease or > something was utilized to keep em out of dampness. Again it doesn't make sense that something special was used. Sounds more like wishful thinking on someones part than anything else. > even if that ain't no evidence as of yet, you know > something other than being cold and damp was done. > somethings were so common knowledghe they were not > recorded. Then they did not record it. But I doubt that. > > to give an example to the 'document zealots' the > lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover > the ground of their tipis; but where is the > documentation either in print or art? How did you find that out. That was supposed to be a secret amongst the lakota! Speaking of secrets not written down, the Yakimas and other "Plataue" Indians up this way used reeds to make mats to make coverings for their lodges cause they didn't have a ready supply of buffalo. Never wrote it down but somehow the secret got out. yet, i found a > reference from the youth on pine ridge whom told of > what their grandparents had told them. That musta been it. Those Yakima Youth can't keep a secret worth a darn. Of course they still do it to this day but I suppose we should not believe our eyes when we see such lodges in old photos and up on the Reservation today. the only > trustworthy sources to reference this may be cathy > smith or larry belitz; both advisors in 'dances with > wolves' What did they have to say? . > > BY THE WAY THE BAYBERRY WAX IS A SEASONAL CANDLE SOLD > DURING CHRISTMAS FOR RELIGIOUS RITUAL. SO YE CAN GIT > YORE SELF DOWN TO THA LOCAL TRADING POST/ DOLLAR STORE > AND GRAB A FEW. I'M SURE SOME SKINNER WILL WANT TO > BLEND BEES WAX BAYBERRY WAX, AND TALLOW FOR A WET > RESISTANT CANVAS. Did the trappers only do this around Christmas time when bay berries were available? Why would some skinner want to add to the weight of his shelter by adding all that stuff? Many have already pointed out that good canvas will shed water just fine if you elect not to treat it. > > IF NOT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE USE OF 'PINE PITCH'? > OTHER THAN BIRTH BARK CANOES THAT IZ. Wood plank boats called bateaus. Quite a bit of the stuff was shipped up to the mountains along with oakum for caulking the seams of insitu built plank boats to carry furs back down to civilization. Pitch pine would make a lousy waterproofing for cloth. Sticky or brittle depending. Makes a good liner for a leather canteen or gourd but that was not an industry that was carried on in the Mountains. And most had no need for a water carrier since water was almost always available. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID. Date: 17 Dec 2001 16:15:32 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 2:11 PM > AS FAR AS AGE MOST- IT MAYBE > THAT THE 'TOUGHNESS' WE RECOGNIZE IS JUST A FEW, VERY > FEW WHO HAD SURVIVED TO 'OLD AGE'. Clint, Why are you yelling? > > Mark A. Baker had told me in the early 80's that the > longhunters in the east 'bear greased' the hunting > shirt's capes in the east because of the drip from > canopys and losing body warmth in the upper torso. > yep this was those ole buckskin shirts. Mark Baker has changed his stance on a number of things over the years though I have no reason to doubt that he came across information that indicates the above. now if they > cared so much about body warmth and staying dry in > their clothes according to baker; why wouldn't they > provide a reasonable method to guard against a damp > camp? You really want to prove to your self that they just didn't live wet when it was wet and dry when it was dry don't you? But have you? So far all you've been doing is speculating to justify. So go ahead and oil your canvas or grease your coat. But don't call it authentic because your "exploratory/experamental archaeology" made you come up with it even though there is no evidence other than you got wet, decided you didn't like being wet, greased your tent so you wouldn't be wet, so therefore the trappers of old must have done it! Be honest and say, "I don't want to be wet and this is using natural materials to keep me from being wet. The trappers may have done this thought there is no proof. I just decided to do it." And NO NEED TO YELL. Now you got me doing it! YMOS Capt. Lahti' ifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article Date: 17 Dec 2001 16:32:14 -0800 > but the point to this A.M.M. site is to get back to a > pre 1840 period Clint, The point of this AMM sponsored site is to discuss history. but the point of > Buckskinning is to recreate the past in camp. And one would want to do that as authentically as knowledge of how it was done would allow? If that is a concern then one would not want to do anything that can't be proven? > > i'm not saying we have to go become poachers One of AMM's standing rules forbids the breaking of any game laws. Period. as they > were to the tribes yet licensed by their company they > niggered/worked for. but are we not supposed to > emulate the way it was done in the FUR TRADE; glorious > or non-romantically done. Right. So if they got wet, we get wet. > > I personally know of > I'm sure we all know stories but we don't air them in public. We work within to change things for the better. > please regard I'm not picking on you, as a greenhorn I > did it way back then, and yes compromises are made. > show me a Californian AMM member who traps in his > homestate today and i'll show you a poacher or a > offical employee. If your not picking on someone then what is up? Your on a terror for some reason. You can't legally trap in WA. state anymore either but that won't keep you from meeting the challenge of "being able to demonstrate your ability", which is what is called for. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article Date: 17 Dec 2001 20:33:13 -0600 Clint, my man, your post is very nearly gibberish. The rambling examples you cite are largely a steaming pile of mis-information, mild slander and general nonsense. I could go on, but I won't. Lanney Ratcliff AMM #1585 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 4:33 PM > > i hardily agree that we can not be 100 % period. most > of us will have fillings or surgerys that aren't > period on our persons. our bodies have digested non > organic substances to become what it is. everything > is different, evolution and devolution goes on. > > but the point to this A.M.M. site is to get back to a > pre 1840 period and match the standards of those > mountainerrs gone under. i too as a greenhorn > cany-ace/ass tenterfoot in my 1st year used > 'thompson's water seal'. but the point of > buckskinning is to recreate the past in camp. > > i'm not saying we have to go become poachers as they > were to the tribes yet licensed by their company they > niggered/worked for. but are we not supposed to > emulate the way it was done in the FUR TRADE; glorius > or non-romanticly done. > > i personally know of brigades whom now compromise AMM > standards by riding modern roping saddles when they > are members grossing 50 to 75 K a year. or other > cases where a texan AMM member shot a squierel wired > down beforehand and he tanned/brained it's skin. BUT > ARE THEASE EXAMPLES WORTHY OF EMULATING AND RECREATING > THE FUR TRADE MYTH???????? > > please regard i'm not picking on you, as a greenhorn i > did it way back then, and yes compromises are made. > show me a californian AMM member who traps in his > homestate today and i'll show you a poacher or a > offical employee. i realize the skirts have ruined > that states ecology and have an effect on all of us. > > i realize buckskinning to joe normal seems fanatical. > but then AMM did should represent the die hard zealots > of the fur trade myth. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID. Date: 17 Dec 2001 20:48:01 -0700 Clint Garrett wrote in part: to give an example to the 'document zealots' the lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover the ground of their tipis; but where is the documentation either in print or art? For several years I have worked at finding things in the period writings like the use of canvas. Or to figure out how they did things and if I could do it the same way. It has been a labor of love; if I am supposed to be offended by terms like ‘document zealots’ it hasn’t worked. Thank you! Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps Date: 17 Dec 2001 23:56:25 EST Too much guessing, not enough researching... "We then traveled that day about fifty milesand thought that we had got clear of the Indians. We camped on a beautiful stream, one of the tributaries of the Arkansas. During the nightwe had our best animals staked. We had with us a very watchful dog and during the nighthe kept continually barking. We were aware of the Indians being close and kept good watch... About an hour after we left, a large party of Indians charged the camp running off all the loose animals. Four men immediately mounted four of the best animals and followed and in a short time overtook the Indians and recaptured all of the animals. One of the four was severely wounded in the affray. One Indian was killed." DEAR OLD KIT (from the "Autobiography of Kit Carson") p. 56-57. This incident was in 1833 in the mountains west of Colo. Spgs. No matter how many primary references people make PROVING that dogs were not at all uncommon in trappers' camps, so people will just keep right on guessing instead of reading. John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps Date: 18 Dec 2001 05:19:11 +0000 Thanks John, That's one I had read and couldn't remember where I had read it. If my memory serves me, years ago I read a similar incident in Gerard's Wahtoya and the Taos Trail. But I ain't sure and I can't find my darn book. Don Secondine >From: Hawkengun@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs in Trapper's camps >Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:56:25 EST > >Too much guessing, not enough researching... > >"We then traveled that day about fifty milesand thought that we had got >clear >of the Indians. We camped on a beautiful stream, one of the tributaries of >the Arkansas. During the nightwe had our best animals staked. We had with >us >a very watchful dog and during the nighthe kept continually barking. We >were >aware of the Indians being close and kept good watch... About an hour after >we left, a large party of Indians charged the camp running off all the >loose >animals. Four men immediately mounted four of the best animals and followed >and in a short time overtook the Indians and recaptured all of the animals. >One of the four was severely wounded in the affray. One Indian was >killed." >DEAR OLD KIT (from the "Autobiography of Kit Carson") p. 56-57. > >This incident was in 1833 in the mountains west of Colo. Spgs. No matter >how >many primary references people make PROVING that dogs were not at all >uncommon in trappers' camps, so people will just keep right on guessing >instead of reading. > >John R. Sweet > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID. Date: 18 Dec 2001 05:55:25 -0700 Mike, I think many just see the years that the individual was in the field and think that they died shortly after or at the end of the time that career ended, not realizing that a large number returned to the settlements and lived long lives for the time - doing other things, you made a good point. Put me down for your new book, should be interesting as all your articles have been, thanks for your time bud. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 4:48 PM > Clint, > Oh, I must say one of my pet peeves. This one is about the normal > ages of the men in the west during the fur trade. Actually, the median > age when most of the men died was about 66 years. Which is only > slightly less tha what it is today. People were killed young, but majority > of them lived good long lives.You can find this > age put forth in the Hafen's last book of his set in "A Statical Review" > by Richard Fehrman (pages 9 -14, volume 10). He takes all 280+ men > wrote about in the ten volumes and gives alot of useful information, on e > of which is the average age of death. I went alittle further in > a chapter in my book due out in Jan/ Feb about this subject. Some did > die young. Pilgrims and ones who only lasted a year or two in the west > did not have a long life. But many found the west to be a place that made > them > stronger and healthier. > Most did have joint problems, healed old wounds and scars from run ins > with various creatures and people, but the were tough. If any would like to > > to have a copy of the chapter I did on it, let me know. > I will include here a note by Washington Irnving from "A Tour of the > Prairies" > pages 160-161. It is a note on the guide of his who lived in the west all > of his > life. > October 27, > Our man Beatte had come out of his contest with the bear very much > worsted and discomfited. His drenching in the brook, together with the > recent change of weather, had brought on rheumatic pains in his limbs, to > which he is subject. Though ordinarily a fellow of undaunted spirit, and > above all hardship, yet he now sat down by the fire, gloomy and dejected, > and for once gave way to repining. Though in the prime of life, and of a > robust frame, and apparently iron constitution, yet, by his own account, he > was little better than a mere wreck. He was, in fact, a living monument of > the hardships of wild frontier life. Baring his left arm, he showed it > warped and contracted by a former attack of rheumatism; a malady with which > the Indians are often afflicted; for their exposure to the vicissitudes of > the elements does not produce that perfect hardihood and insensibility to > the changes of the seasons that many are apt to imagine. He bore the scars > of various maims and bruises; some received in hunting, some in Indian > warfare. His right arm had been broken by a fall from his horse; at another > time his steed had fallen with him, and crushed his left leg. > "I am all broke to pieces and good for nothing," said he; "I no care > now what happen to me any more." "However," added he, after a moment's > pause, "for all that, it would take a pretty strong man to put me down, > anyhow." > mike. > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article Date: 18 Dec 2001 05:56:37 -0700 Amen, Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:33 PM > Clint, my man, your post is very nearly gibberish. The rambling examples > you cite are largely a steaming pile of mis-information, mild slander and > general nonsense. I could go on, but I won't. > Lanney Ratcliff > AMM #1585 > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 18 Dec 2001 07:01:16 -0700 Apparently this gentleman believes what some of today's writers put down years ago as being documented and correct (when it's a combination of their ideas and others), there are those that write to just sell their wares, then there are those that state documented proof w/references of what they are writing about, the gentleman he refers to was known for poor documentation in the early 1980's (he was learning his trade at that time, many of us remember how he thought a TC Hawkin was close to a weapon of choice ), after a few butt chewing about this and other misleading statements made in the very early years of his wonderings, he has got down to "covering his tracks" with good documentation, honing his woodsman skills, getting out on the ground (writing included) to what we have today, a pretty damn good woodsman, writer and personal friend. All is a learning process that we all should be following, the key word is RESEARCH, RESEARCH and then more RESEARCH, old writers/researchers worth their salt usually started their careers researching first then wanting to share their new learned knowledge started writing, seems many get the process ass-backward. If Charley Hanson was alive he would be in the middle of this telling you the same thing Clint, a good example of good solid research is Mike Moore, seen by his last post - his journey started with an interest, research and then writing. Mike will tell you the RESEARCH never ends and what you found today as being the way it was, could change tomorrow because of more RESEARCH. Sorry for the lengthy rambling members. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 5:06 PM > > > back in about 1980 Mark A. Baker personally told me > > that on a brigade in the southwest that Kit was among > > they each started out with 12 sheepskins. as bedding > > then as winter came they became hates, mittens, vests, > > ect. > > > Clint, > > I've got some sheep skins too and depending on how they are used, they will > last not very long. Were I to pack them around as bedding for a whole year, > I suppose that by spring they would be suitable for storing my hooks and > flies in. Now a Buffalo robe is somewhat different and a brained and smoked > robe is a whole nother story. So why are we talking about sheep skins? > > > > > baker didn't say the following but it only stands to > > reason as i have discussed with others, that plews > > replaced the sheep skins. > > No it does not stand to reason. Not unless that is all you had. A trapper > would have access to buffalo, deer, elk, Big Horn and etc. to make up for > beding not to mention the blankets mentioned by many. Why on earth would > anyone sleep in their money? Don't make sense to me. And the guard hairs are > just the first to go. It doesn't take long to wear off the inner fur and > then you have a worthless pelt. Nope, doesn't stand to reason not one bit. > > > as far as canvas goes even if we haven't presented > > documentation as of yet it only makes sense that > > tallow, beeswax, bayberry wax, or bear grease or > > something was utilized to keep em out of dampness. > > Again it doesn't make sense that something special was used. Sounds more > like wishful thinking on someones part than anything else. > > > > even if that ain't no evidence as of yet, you know > > something other than being cold and damp was done. > > somethings were so common knowledghe they were not > > recorded. > > Then they did not record it. But I doubt that. > > > > > to give an example to the 'document zealots' the > > lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover > > the ground of their tipis; but where is the > > documentation either in print or art? > > How did you find that out. That was supposed to be a secret amongst the > lakota! Speaking of secrets not written down, the Yakimas and other > "Plataue" Indians up this way used reeds to make mats to make coverings for > their lodges cause they didn't have a ready supply of buffalo. Never wrote > it down but somehow the secret got out. > > yet, i found a > > reference from the youth on pine ridge whom told of > > what their grandparents had told them. > > That musta been it. Those Yakima Youth can't keep a secret worth a darn. Of > course they still do it to this day but I suppose we should not believe our > eyes when we see such lodges in old photos and up on the Reservation today. > > the only > > trustworthy sources to reference this may be cathy > > smith or larry belitz; both advisors in 'dances with > > wolves' > > What did they have to say? > > . > > > > BY THE WAY THE BAYBERRY WAX IS A SEASONAL CANDLE SOLD > > DURING CHRISTMAS FOR RELIGIOUS RITUAL. SO YE CAN GIT > > YORE SELF DOWN TO THA LOCAL TRADING POST/ DOLLAR STORE > > AND GRAB A FEW. I'M SURE SOME SKINNER WILL WANT TO > > BLEND BEES WAX BAYBERRY WAX, AND TALLOW FOR A WET > > RESISTANT CANVAS. > > Did the trappers only do this around Christmas time when bay berries were > available? Why would some skinner want to add to the weight of his shelter > by adding all that stuff? Many have already pointed out that good canvas > will shed water just fine if you elect not to treat it. > > > > > > IF NOT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE USE OF 'PINE PITCH'? > > OTHER THAN BIRTH BARK CANOES THAT IZ. > > Wood plank boats called bateaus. Quite a bit of the stuff was shipped up to > the mountains along with oakum for caulking the seams of insitu built plank > boats to carry furs back down to civilization. Pitch pine would make a lousy > waterproofing for cloth. Sticky or brittle depending. Makes a good liner for > a leather canteen or gourd but that was not an industry that was carried on > in the Mountains. And most had no need for a water carrier since water was > almost always available. > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Guglielmi Subject: MtMan-List: Hello from Oregon Date: 18 Dec 2001 06:16:01 -0800 My name is Rick Guglielmi, I have been monitoring the MtMan list for about a month now and thought it was time I introduce myself and get involved. Black Powder, reenacting, treking or what ever you call it is not new to myself, however for the past 4 years due to personal matters, I have not been active in this area. Although I have continued to do research, improve on my gear and take an occasional scout by myself when the time allowed, I thought it was time to get reaquanted with other folks who enjoy this lifestyle. I would especially like to make contact with other folks in the Pacific NorthWest who enjoy going on scouts/treks along with meeting at some of the local roundyvous. I am particularly interested in horse scouts but will on occasion leave the mules at home and set out afoot. It seems like I am coming up with more questions than what I have answers for and am excited that this forum may be a way to present these questions. It may take me awhile to get this whole process figured out and polish my writing skill so I get my oint across to everyone. One question I would like to start off with concerns the way horses and mules were packed during the 1800-50 period. I have recently read several articles on the type of pack saddles, wether they were double or single rigged,had a breast collar, etc. I have also seen in different publications pictures and drawings of both sawbuck style saddles and what is called an aparejo packsaddle. What I have not seen i show these saddles were actually packed. Was pack bags used on the saw buck or did they sling load gear similar to the method used on a decker saddle. What about the Aparejo-I have packed alot of mules and horses outfitted with sawbucks but have no idea on the way a aparejo works. I look forward to participating in furure discussions and hearing from folks especially from NE Oregon. Rick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello from Oregon Date: 18 Dec 2001 07:22:43 -0700 Welcome aboard Rick, you'll find it a pretty good journey, a little ruff at times but for most a good experience. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:16 AM > My name is Rick Guglielmi, I have been monitoring the MtMan list for about > a month now and thought it was time I introduce myself and get > involved. Black Powder, reenacting, treking or what ever you call it is > not new to myself, however for the past 4 years due to personal matters, I > have not been active in this area. Although I have continued to do > research, improve on my gear and take an occasional scout by myself when > the time allowed, I thought it was time to get reaquanted with other folks > who enjoy this lifestyle. > > I would especially like to make contact with other folks in the Pacific > NorthWest who enjoy going on scouts/treks along with meeting at some of the > local roundyvous. I am particularly interested in horse scouts but will on > occasion leave the mules at home and set out afoot. > > It seems like I am coming up with more questions than what I have answers > for and am excited that this forum may be a way to present these > questions. It may take me awhile to get this whole process figured out and > polish my writing skill so I get my oint across to everyone. > > One question I would like to start off with concerns the way horses and > mules were packed during the 1800-50 period. I have recently read several > articles on the type of pack saddles, wether they were double or single > rigged,had a breast collar, etc. I have also seen in different > publications pictures and drawings of both sawbuck style saddles and what > is called an aparejo packsaddle. What I have not seen i show these saddles > were actually packed. Was pack bags used on the saw buck or did they sling > load gear similar to the method used on a decker saddle. What about the > Aparejo-I have packed alot of mules and horses outfitted with sawbucks but > have no idea on the way a aparejo works. > > I look forward to participating in furure discussions and hearing from > folks especially from NE Oregon. > > Rick > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 18 Dec 2001 07:41:48 -0700 Capt, You said what I was thinking. You are right on the money. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "rtlahti" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas >Date: Mon, Dec 17, 2001, 5:06 PM > > >> back in about 1980 Mark A. Baker personally told me >> that on a brigade in the southwest that Kit was among >> they each started out with 12 sheepskins. as bedding >> then as winter came they became hates, mittens, vests, >> ect. > > >Clint, > >I've got some sheep skins too and depending on how they are used, they will >last not very long. Were I to pack them around as bedding for a whole year, >I suppose that by spring they would be suitable for storing my hooks and >flies in. Now a Buffalo robe is somewhat different and a brained and smoked >robe is a whole nother story. So why are we talking about sheep skins? > >> >> baker didn't say the following but it only stands to >> reason as i have discussed with others, that plews >> replaced the sheep skins. > >No it does not stand to reason. Not unless that is all you had. A trapper >would have access to buffalo, deer, elk, Big Horn and etc. to make up for >beding not to mention the blankets mentioned by many. Why on earth would >anyone sleep in their money? Don't make sense to me. And the guard hairs are >just the first to go. It doesn't take long to wear off the inner fur and >then you have a worthless pelt. Nope, doesn't stand to reason not one bit. > >> as far as canvas goes even if we haven't presented >> documentation as of yet it only makes sense that >> tallow, beeswax, bayberry wax, or bear grease or >> something was utilized to keep em out of dampness. > >Again it doesn't make sense that something special was used. Sounds more >like wishful thinking on someones part than anything else. > > >> even if that ain't no evidence as of yet, you know >> something other than being cold and damp was done. >> somethings were so common knowledghe they were not >> recorded. > >Then they did not record it. But I doubt that. > >> >> to give an example to the 'document zealots' the >> lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover >> the ground of their tipis; but where is the >> documentation either in print or art? > >How did you find that out. That was supposed to be a secret amongst the >lakota! Speaking of secrets not written down, the Yakimas and other >"Plataue" Indians up this way used reeds to make mats to make coverings for >their lodges cause they didn't have a ready supply of buffalo. Never wrote >it down but somehow the secret got out. > > yet, i found a >> reference from the youth on pine ridge whom told of >> what their grandparents had told them. > >That musta been it. Those Yakima Youth can't keep a secret worth a darn. Of >course they still do it to this day but I suppose we should not believe our >eyes when we see such lodges in old photos and up on the Reservation today. > > the only >> trustworthy sources to reference this may be cathy >> smith or larry belitz; both advisors in 'dances with >> wolves' > >What did they have to say? > >. >> >> BY THE WAY THE BAYBERRY WAX IS A SEASONAL CANDLE SOLD >> DURING CHRISTMAS FOR RELIGIOUS RITUAL. SO YE CAN GIT >> YORE SELF DOWN TO THA LOCAL TRADING POST/ DOLLAR STORE >> AND GRAB A FEW. I'M SURE SOME SKINNER WILL WANT TO >> BLEND BEES WAX BAYBERRY WAX, AND TALLOW FOR A WET >> RESISTANT CANVAS. > >Did the trappers only do this around Christmas time when bay berries were >available? Why would some skinner want to add to the weight of his shelter >by adding all that stuff? Many have already pointed out that good canvas >will shed water just fine if you elect not to treat it. > > >> >> IF NOT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE USE OF 'PINE PITCH'? >> OTHER THAN BIRTH BARK CANOES THAT IZ. > >Wood plank boats called bateaus. Quite a bit of the stuff was shipped up to >the mountains along with oakum for caulking the seams of insitu built plank >boats to carry furs back down to civilization. Pitch pine would make a lousy >waterproofing for cloth. Sticky or brittle depending. Makes a good liner for >a leather canteen or gourd but that was not an industry that was carried on >in the Mountains. And most had no need for a water carrier since water was >almost always available. > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello from Oregon Date: 18 Dec 2001 09:56:58 -0500 Welcome to the camp fire. Pull up a log, grab a cup of coffee, and jaw awhile... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: MtMan-List: Book? Date: 18 Dec 2001 09:54:49 -0700 Mike , I saw Bucks post about a book, if you are doing a book I definitely want a copy! Please keep me in mind! and when and where to ship the plews. Wish you the best in this Holiday time! Take care, Charlie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 18 Dec 2001 10:10:05 -0700 Buck, Very well stated, I wish I had a nickle for every time I thought I had everything right/correct then tomorrow came when additional RESEARCH pointed out the errors in my thinking. We must keep an open mind, and simply keep digging. I will not live long enough to learn all the answers, but I am sure going to work at it while I can. Respectfully, Charlie Webb AKA Old Coyote > Apparently this gentleman believes what some of today's writers put > down > years ago as being documented and correct (when it's a combination > of their > ideas and others), there are those that write to just sell their > wares, then > there are those that state documented proof w/references of what > they are > writing about, the gentleman he refers to was known for poor > documentation > in the early 1980's (he was learning his trade at that time, many of > us > remember how he thought a TC Hawkin was close to a weapon of choice > ), > after a few butt chewing about this and other misleading statements > made in > the very early years of his wonderings, he has got down to "covering > his > tracks" with good documentation, honing his woodsman skills, getting > out on > the ground (writing included) to what we have today, a pretty damn > good > woodsman, writer and personal friend. > > All is a learning process that we all should be following, the key > word is > RESEARCH, RESEARCH and then more RESEARCH, old writers/researchers > worth > their salt usually started their careers researching first then > wanting to > share their new learned knowledge started writing, seems many get > the > process ass-backward. If Charley Hanson was alive he would be in the > middle > of this telling you the same thing Clint, a good example of good > solid > research is Mike Moore, seen by his last post - his journey started > with an > interest, research and then writing. Mike will tell you the RESEARCH > never > ends and what you found today as being the way it was, could change > tomorrow > because of more RESEARCH. > > Sorry for the lengthy rambling members. > > Take care, > Buck Conner > "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 18 Dec 2001 10:56:55 -0700 He" Charlie, I think we have all experienced many "tomorrow's" in this line of research, I've had some of the best garage sales of wrong equipage for my persona. When we stop learning/researching, it probably is time to nail the lid down. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:10 AM > Buck, > Very well stated, I wish I had a nickle for every time > I thought I had everything right/correct then tomorrow > came when additional RESEARCH pointed out the > errors in my thinking. We must keep an open mind, > and simply keep digging. I will not live long enough > to learn all the answers, but I am sure going to work > at it while I can. > > Respectfully, > Charlie Webb > AKA Old Coyote ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 18 Dec 2001 10:43:57 -0800 Ole, You mean to say we think alike? Now that's a scary thought! Must be the Dane in us. Roger Paul (for Paulsen) Lahti #1719 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 6:41 AM > Capt, > You said what I was thinking. You are right on the money. > YMOS > Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID. Date: 18 Dec 2001 15:33:15 EST Brothers. I think we have men in the AMM that are as tough as any that lived back then. Your Bro Two Bear ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article Date: 18 Dec 2001 15:39:51 EST Brothers. ask Walt Grizz Hayward what he thinks of the word Buckskinner. Two Bear ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 18 Dec 2001 15:54:55 -0800 I've had some of the best garage sales of wrong equipage for my persona. When we stop learning/researching, it probably is time to nail the lid down. Take care, Buck Conner >>That Brother Conner, is for damn certain ! Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 18 Dec 2001 18:03:33 -0500 Buck (and List)... I think the majority of us have done that. I'm right there with you. I have had some great sales of items at varios Vous and on line of "stuff" that was wrong... enamel ware, clothing, you name it. One of the reasons I included a "READ THIS BEFORE YOU GET STARTED" page on my web site. Bought a few good things along the way too from others who either switched periods/personnas, or had stuff from the wrong period, but it fit into mine... What I love is the "Wannabe's" that come to flatlander days all decked out in blue jeans, cowboy hats, western shirts, knee mocs, HUGE belt buckles (maybe they are making up for something smaller?), etc... Ad ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 16 Dec 2001 12:57:04 EST In a message dated 12/16/01 8:35:07 AM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: << Better to have many guns than to have to use many shovels, I reckon. >> I had a chance to shoot a Buffalo (and Polar Bear too) years ago in Alaska and for some reason, I never did. About the biggest critter I've shot wid a 50cal flinter, was a cow moose, and that took three well placed shot to put her down. (onlyest had one gun, so there was some fancy reloadin involved...) Good to hear a 62cal Trade Gun can do the job Buck. I've been hunting elk this Fall with a Tulle, and feel it's more than enough with a good shot, and probably better than the 50cal.....we'll see. Anyone know of a good ranch/area to shoot a Buffalo....reasonable? There use to be a place just East of the Deschutes (Oregun) but I believe the bunny huggers had it shut down... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 18 Dec 2001 17:10:31 -0700 The Turner Ranch here in Montana. A friend just got back this week. He bought a 10-12 year old cow for $650. They let him shoot a 2 1/2 year old cow instead. They gutted it and loaded it on his truck for him. He keeps everything. He's already got the hide at the tannery and the skull being cleaned. Wanted me to come help him butcher today. Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 10:57 AM > > In a message dated 12/16/01 8:35:07 AM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > > << Better to have many guns than to have to use many shovels, I reckon. >> > > I had a chance to shoot a Buffalo (and Polar Bear too) years ago in Alaska > and for some reason, I never did. About the biggest critter I've shot wid a > 50cal flinter, was a cow moose, and that took three well placed shot to put > her down. (onlyest had one gun, so there was some fancy reloadin > involved...) > > Good to hear a 62cal Trade Gun can do the job Buck. I've been hunting elk > this Fall with a Tulle, and feel it's more than enough with a good shot, and > probably better than the 50cal.....we'll see. > > Anyone know of a good ranch/area to shoot a Buffalo....reasonable? There use > to be a place just East of the Deschutes (Oregun) but I believe the bunny > huggers had it shut down... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 18 Dec 2001 19:43:46 EST In a message dated 12/18/01 4:11:20 PM, ghickman9@attbi.com writes: << The Turner Ranch here in Montana. A friend just got back this week. He bought a 10-12 year old cow for $650. They let him shoot a 2 1/2 year old cow instead. They gutted it and loaded it on his truck for him. He keeps everything. >> Ya know Bead.....that might be kinda fun to do this spring while the hair is still long. You up for getting help if I get run over? .... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 18 Dec 2001 17:57:50 -0700 I'm ready anytime. I'll get the phone number and details. Bead Shooter ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:43 PM > > Ya know Bead.....that might be kinda fun to do this spring while the hair is > still long. You up for getting help if I get run over? .... > > Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 18 Dec 2001 18:02:24 -0700 Ad, Send me your trade blanket site again, thanks. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:03 PM > Buck (and List)... I think the majority of us have done that. I'm right > there with you. I have had some great sales of items at varios Vous and on > line of "stuff" that was wrong... enamel ware, clothing, you name it. One > of the reasons I included a "READ THIS BEFORE YOU GET STARTED" page on my > web site. Bought a few good things along the way too from others who either > switched periods/personnas, or had stuff from the wrong period, but it fit > into mine... > > What I love is the "Wannabe's" that come to flatlander days all decked out > in blue jeans, cowboy hats, western shirts, knee mocs, HUGE belt buckles > (maybe they are making up for something smaller?), etc... > > Ad > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 18 Dec 2001 20:02:45 EST In a message dated 12/18/01 4:58:38 PM, ghickman9@attbi.com writes: << I'm ready anytime. I'll get the phone number and details. >> Woooooohooooo.... I'm loadin me Tulle right now! My wife don't know it, but I think she just bought me a buffalo for Christmas... Let's go off line to work out the details. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 18 Dec 2001 18:15:51 -0700 Magpie, Try Wilber Williams in Wallace KS (about 65 miles south of Goodland), has like 23 sections that the critters are roaming on and he puts together a good time, you'll have to call the operator to get a phone number and Wilber can fill you in. Have taken Jack Garner, Glen Jones, Freddie Harris for southern boys there, Ol' "Brass Turtle" got his 1st buffalo here with a Tulle, Kim Sherman, Houseworth and many of the old traders hang out here from time to time. So when you go there maybe several other groups doing the same thing, "huntin' buff". This area was where the railroad brought the folks from back east to kill off the herds at the end of the century, Smokey Hill range. Wilber has several "stands" on his place from those days, found a couple of rimfire Henry cases at one old dump along with lead soldered tin cans, cool stuff. The most I have seen where 8 animals going down the same day, brother what a time we had that night sitting around the campfire swapping tales of the days events with each other. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 10:57 AM > > In a message dated 12/16/01 8:35:07 AM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > > << Better to have many guns than to have to use many shovels, I reckon. >> > > I had a chance to shoot a Buffalo (and Polar Bear too) years ago in Alaska > and for some reason, I never did. About the biggest critter I've shot wid a > 50cal flinter, was a cow moose, and that took three well placed shot to put > her down. (onlyest had one gun, so there was some fancy reloadin > involved...) > > Good to hear a 62cal Trade Gun can do the job Buck. I've been hunting elk > this Fall with a Tulle, and feel it's more than enough with a good shot, and > probably better than the 50cal.....we'll see. > > Anyone know of a good ranch/area to shoot a Buffalo....reasonable? There use > to be a place just East of the Deschutes (Oregun) but I believe the bunny > huggers had it shut down... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Book Date: 18 Dec 2001 19:23:30 -0700 Mike I am interested in your findings as well. Keep us informed. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Hello from Oregon Date: 18 Dec 2001 19:42:20 -0700 Rick Guglielmi wrote: I have been monitoring the MtMan list for about a month now and thought it was time I introduce myself and get involved. . . . .One question I would like to start off with concerns the way horses and mules were packed during the 1800-50 period. I have recently read several articles on the type of pack saddles, wether they were double or single rigged,had a breast collar, etc. I have also seen in different publications pictures and drawings of both sawbuck style saddles and what is called an aparejo packsaddle. What I have not seen i show these saddles were actually packed. Was pack bags used on the saw buck or did they sling load gear similar to the method used on a decker saddle. What about the Aparejo-I have packed alot of mules and horses outfitted with sawbucks but have no idea on the way a aparejo works. Welcome Rick. I have already spent to much time away from the family today so I will keep this short and perhaps gab a bit more about it come the week end. Ruxton used and describes the aparejo quite well. I’ll try to get the referances later. I believe that some trappers who learned the art from the Spaniards would likewise have used them. I never have but I really question all the glowing reports I have read about them. Miller has some depictions of loaded animals. As to bags or slings my guess is all of the above. Ruxton mentions waterproof bags and Ferris refers to wrapping packs in leather. I would think they would have had to sling the beaver packs to transport them. Now tell me where you saw period depictions of the use of a aparejo? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: The fats in the fire Date: 18 Dec 2001 19:46:50 -0700 Has anyone ever deep fried in a tin boiler over a fire? Can it be done without too much trouble? I would like to inflict some brothers with one of my cooking experiments at a upcoming camp. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: The fats in the fire Date: 18 Dec 2001 21:05:48 -0600 Wynn When I think about doing that I go lay down until the notion passes. Seriously, I wouldn't do it in a tin boiler (for the obvious risk factors) unless it were a really heavy tin boiler that was VERY well supported. A cast iron Dutch oven with good long legs would be my first choice. But, it's your choice. Tread softly and good luck. Just exactly what are your going to deep fry to impress your brothers?? You know, so we can carve it on your tombstone. Half kidding Lanney > Has anyone ever deep fried in a tin boiler over a fire? Can it be done > without too much trouble? I would like to inflict some brothers with > one of my cooking experiments at a upcoming camp. > > Wynn Ormond > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The fats in the fire Date: 18 Dec 2001 23:04:36 -0500 I have "cooked" in a tin boiler many times, but have never deep fried in one. I dinna think they were sturdy enough to take the prolonged heat. When I do cook something like that, I usually use my heavier iron dutch oven... Either hung over the fire, or supported over the coals on a metal grate. Doesn't sound real safe to me... just my tuppence worth... Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The fats in the fire Date: 18 Dec 2001 22:39:24 -0600 You need at hot fire with low flames, and yes, it can be just as difficult as it sounds. Seasoned hardwood makes it easy. No sweat down here in Mississippi, but in the Shining Mountains the vine maple, aspen and alder just don't put out many BTUs compared to oak and hickory. Even then a concentration of heat under the pot can do it, but you will probably have leaping flames. Use a deep pot (high sides) so that it will only be about half full. This helps prevents grease fires. One of my first experiments with this was many years ago when as teenagers my friends and I cooked a possum. Mama wouldn't cook it and wouldn't let me cook it in the house so we tried our hand at deep frying over a wood fire while on a campout. NEVER again! I told my buddies that it was neither the possum nor my cooking but their help that made it unfit to eat. They didn't seem to understand why Copenhagen was a poor substitute for black pepper. I'll eat a Blackfoot before I try another possum. Big Thunder Grenada, MS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello from Oregon Date: 18 Dec 2001 22:52:55 -0700 Greetings Rick and welcome to the list. Your question on horse and mule packing by the trappers and traders of the Rocky Mountain fur trade happens to hit on subject that I have been researching for several years now. While I have found some good information there are still a lot of questions. Here is some of the information that I have documented. Sawbuck pack saddles, or variations of it, can be traced back to Colonial America. Very often in the trade ledgers and business records of the fur trade this saddle is referred to as an "American" pack saddle. These saddles show up on the trade ledgers of most of the fur companies and were charged out to the trappers at $2.00 to $3.00 each. The records of the American Fur Company show that this company purchased a great many "American" pack saddle trees from the St. Louis saddler Thornton Grimsley and also paid him to rig them. I found a ledger entry where AMFC was charged by Gimsley for covering the bars with wool pelts. The Alfred Jacob Miller field sketches always show these saddles rigged with a single cinch and crupper. Most of his drawings indicate that the single cinch was "center shot" or rigged so that it passed under the pack animal more towards the center of his barrel. I have seen an original sawbuck pack saddle documented as used in the fur trade of the early 1840's and the cinch rings are rigged to be exactly centered on the saddle. The pack saddles shown in the Kurtz drawings, done while in the Fort Union area, also show all the pack saddles rigged with a crupper and single center shot cinch. These drawings were done in the 1850's there-by indicating to me that this method of rigging the sawbuck was in use for many years. To date I have found no evidence of britchens or double rigged cinches used on fur trade era sawbuck pack saddles. I only know of one detailed description of a trapper actually tying on packs. This was in 1839 and is a very good description of a diamond hitch. There are several references in the mountaineer journals to "making" packs or :"baling" goods. Most trade goods were made into packs or bales held together by an item called a "wrapper blanket", then roped tight. These were a very thick and tough cheap wool blanket. Most references to packs indicate they were from 90 to 100 pounds each. Beaver was made into packs of 100 pounds each by means of a press, tied with heavy leather thongs and wrapped with a green buffalo or other large animal hide. All of these references to "packs" would indicate that the mountaineers used either a basket or barrel hitch to secure the packs to a sawbuck. This last statement is speculation on my part-but how else would they have done it?? To half answer my own question I must further state that in numerous records I have found an item called a "Pack strap", but no indication as to how it was used. Grimsley made hundreds of them for the AMFC- they were 10 to 12 feet long and had buckles. Again more speculation- but a very fast way to load packs would be to hang them from the sawbucks but the ropes that hold the pack together, then throw a couple of these pack straps around the animal and the two packs-tighten it down and away you go. Miller also shows some drawings in which it appears that the packs are covered with tarps or what we call "mannys" so that may have also been put on before the :pack straps were used. I have also seen references to "pack covers" made from Russia sheeting or cotton duck. I have only found a couple references to "pack bags" and only one reference to the word "pannier". Several Miller drawings seem to show pack animals carrying pack bags. However, I have seen pack baskets listed and lots of good were shipped to Rendezvous in barrels. Also "trap sacks" are a very common item purchased by the mountaineers. I have rambled on long enough-hope that this helps-if you have more questions I'll do my best to help answer them. Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 7:16 AM > My name is Rick Guglielmi, I have been monitoring the MtMan list for about > a month now and thought it was time I introduce myself and get > involved. > One question I would like to start off with concerns the way horses and > mules were packed during the 1800-50 period. I have recently read several > articles on the type of pack saddles, wether they were double or single > rigged,had a breast collar, etc. I have also seen in different > publications pictures and drawings of both sawbuck style saddles and what > is called an aparejo packsaddle. What I have not seen i show these saddles > were actually packed. Was pack bags used on the saw buck or did they sling > load gear similar to the method used on a decker saddle. What about the > Aparejo-I have packed alot of mules and horses outfitted with sawbucks but > have no idea on the way a aparejo works. > > I look forward to participating in furure discussions and hearing from > folks especially from NE Oregon. > > Rick > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 19 Dec 2001 06:46:47 -0700 You boys better make it real early spring, no later than mid March, earlier the better so the hair doesn't slip, Jan & Feb can be real cold down in Wallace KS, not a lot of trees to break that wind, once you experience that you can see why some of the early settlers went crazy. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:57 PM > I'm ready anytime. I'll get the phone number and details. > > Bead Shooter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:43 PM > > > > Ya know Bead.....that might be kinda fun to do this spring while the hair > is > > still long. You up for getting help if I get run over? .... > > > > Magpie > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 19 Dec 2001 07:18:57 -0700 The Baker Party is right now planning a buffalo hunt at that site. no date set yet, but we had orignally thought of the usual President's day weekend camp that we hold every year. If any other AMM guys are looking for a cold, miserable time shooting big, angry beasts you can contact us. If you just want to see one and not be involved that is fine too. All of our camps are open for any member to come, just like all the rest of the parties camps. Need details? mike. BARRY CONNER wrote: > You boys better make it real early spring, no later than mid March, earlier > the better so the hair doesn't slip, Jan & Feb can be real cold down in > Wallace KS, not a lot of trees to break that wind, once you experience that > you can see why some of the early settlers went crazy. > > Take care, > Buck Conner > "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gene Hickman" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:57 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ > > > I'm ready anytime. I'll get the phone number and details. > > > > Bead Shooter > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:43 PM > > > > > > Ya know Bead.....that might be kinda fun to do this spring while the > hair > > is > > > still long. You up for getting help if I get run over? .... > > > > > > Magpie > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 19 Dec 2001 07:45:20 -0700 Capt, Now I understand, Gentle Sarcasim. I have always belived that before you start a discussion you had better know what youre talking about and be able to prove it. If I were to speculate on what beeding the trapers would have used during a long winter camp, I would use grass covered with a blanket. There is no documentation for it that I know about but grass and straw have been used for centuries. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "rtlahti" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas >Date: Tue, Dec 18, 2001, 11:43 AM > >Ole, > >You mean to say we think alike? Now that's a scary thought! Must be the Dane >in us. > >Roger Paul (for Paulsen) Lahti >#1719 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ole B. Jensen" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 6:41 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas > > >> Capt, >> You said what I was thinking. You are right on the money. >> YMOS >> Ole # 718 > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article Date: 19 Dec 2001 09:10:46 -0800 (PST) . > ask Walt Grizz Hayward what he > thinks of > the word Buckskinner. > Two > Bear > i agree with you Two Bear; it is a modern term within the movement. yet as i'm told by the hardcore diehards of 'document fanaticism' the term 'mountain man' replaced 'mountaineer' much later. what does Walt say about the faddist term buckskinner? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 19 Dec 2001 09:40:45 -0800 Ole, Makes reasonable sense to me too. There are mentions in Journals about laying down a saddle blanket/appishamore (sic) which we speculated a while back might have been a section of buffalo robe and covering up with blankets or another robe, even just laying there shivering. I would speculate that they did with what they had and grass, etc. works. And in Winter it doesn't take much of a natural material roof to keep the snow off. YMOS Capt. Lahti' #1719 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:45 AM > Capt, > Now I understand, Gentle Sarcasim. I have always belived that before you > start a discussion you had better know what youre talking about and be able > to prove it. If I were to speculate on what beeding the trapers would have > used during a long winter camp, I would use grass covered with a blanket. > There is no documentation for it that I know about but grass and straw have > been used for centuries. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > >From: "rtlahti" > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas > >Date: Tue, Dec 18, 2001, 11:43 AM > > > > >Ole, > > > >You mean to say we think alike? Now that's a scary thought! Must be the Dane > >in us. > > > >Roger Paul (for Paulsen) Lahti > >#1719 > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Ole B. Jensen" > >To: > >Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 6:41 AM > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas > > > > > >> Capt, > >> You said what I was thinking. You are right on the money. > >> YMOS > >> Ole # 718 > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 19 Dec 2001 10:04:03 -0800 (PST) "Very well stated, I wish I had a nickle for every > time > I thought I had everything right/correct then > tomorrow > came when additional RESEARCH pointed out the > errors in my thinking. We must keep an open mind, > and simply keep digging. I will not live long > enough > to learn all the answers, but I am sure going to > work > at it while I can. " SOUNDS GOOD AND EMPIRICAL TO ME NO ARGUMENT WITH YOUR STAND, GOOD REPLY MR. WEBB. > > "Apparently this gentleman believes what > some of today's writers > put > > down > > years ago as being documented and correct (when > it's a combination > > of their > > ideas and others), there are those that write to > just sell their > > wares, then > > there are those that state documented proof > w/references of what > > they are > > writing about" EVIDENTLY, MY MEANING IS MISUNDERSTOOD; I EXCEPT WITH 90% CERTAINTY THAT MUCH OF THE DOCOMENTATION IS CORRECT. WHAT I QUESTION IS THE 'LACK OF READING BETWEEN THE LINES' IN OUR ENDEAVOR AND PURSUIT OF AUTHENTICTY. FOR EXAMPLE: about '82' i was at Marlis's parents house and Baker was talking about going beaver trappin primative. he said the weight of the trap alone would drown a beav. well being my first year at trapping beaver i soon learned even though i was trappin modern/commercially that kits could be taken SOME TIMES with the weight of the trap{tangle stakes or other methods); but when an adult drags a heavy concrete block or tractor part back to the bank of 35-40 lbs you know someone yarned the writer of 'Firearms, Traps, and Tools of the Mountain Men??/Fur Trade'?? You will have to forgive me on this title confusion, yet i think we all have seen the book. This conversation between Baker and I had it's core beleif for Baker in that book. mine came from my experience and the wisdom of the state trapper whom taught me; also a writer of "Trapper Journal". , "the gentleman he refers to was > known for poor > > documentation > > in the early 1980's (he was learning his trade at > that time, many of > > us > > remember how he thought a TC Hawkin was close to a > weapon of choice" yes, i remember him shooting the same gun with the 'tacked cross'. ANY time one seeks to lead what he deems to be lessor men than himself and sets himself up as a cultural icon and mentor he receives both praise, exaltation, and critisism. So we are not slandering Mark A. Baker yet glorifying his accomplishments and 'refining' if not 'tempering his metal' of his knowledge and quest for par excellance in the black powder related arts. > > after a few butt chewing about this and other > misleading statements > > made in > > the very early years of his wonderings, he has got > down to "covering > > his > > tracks" with good documentation, honing his > woodsman skills, getting > > out on > > the ground (writing included) to what we have > today, a pretty damn > > good > > woodsman, writer and personal friend." AS Mark is a Guru of 'Skinning' for most at one time or another, it must be remembered that it was not only the 80's in which he was ignorant and fallible but just like the Capt. who posts on this site said with the backing of his expertise in Fire fighting Mark still has problems in the research area in regards to the rotting effect/deteriation of his oil cloth. another example is from a local i met at Chadron at the museum where i did a 'sobriety ride' in '95' with the oglalla. he pointed out to me that Mark's article around that time on 'rendering fat' was totally worthless in accuracy. this was a museum local from a farming community. the point even if Baker is a God-like father to some, like Arnold is to bodybuilding, he still makes ignorant mistakes from time to time like all of us. yet 90% of what he researches is most likely accurate. > > "research is Mike Moore, seen by his last post - > his journey started > > with an > > interest, research and then writing. Mike will > tell you the RESEARCH > > never > > ends and what you found today as being the way it > was, could change > > tomorrow > > because of more RESEARCH." > > > > "Sorry for the lengthy rambling members." I LIKE your objectivity and openess to knowledge. as far as the ramblings go i see it more as like the nessasary 'heat' we put on a subject to melt the 'lead' of the matter. where else can we get the bullets of accuracy? by the way, i'm glad you are a freind of Bakers, he needs some to curb his ego from time to time like i also need the same. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:buck---glad to have you back Date: 15 Dec 2001 14:16:51 -0500 still the same old grouchy crotchey person as ever on this end---hard to change--getting too old Glad to see you back in circulation pard---just made it home from the annual treck to make winter meat---filled all my taggs---2 bucks and 2 does all with ML---3 with the new underhammers---got a nice 8 point thanksgiving day and filled my last ticket----if you need anything give me a shout--- nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce On Sat, 15 Dec 2001 06:32:34 -0700 "BARRY CONNER" writes: > Hawk you old fa..... how are you, good health I hope. > > Take care, > Buck Conner > "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 >. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 15 Dec 2001 06:45:54 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 3:18 PM > I have tried to find some evidence of canvas or some such documentation > in bedding to no avail. On a horse trip with the Poison River Party in > 99 I slept on blankets alone........... When available pine limbs, long grass or leaves work better then just laying on the bare ground, Osborn Russell had it easier with the waste of game animals for their hides to lay on, look at the buffalo he writes about shooting for a little meat and a heavy hide to use for the night, no wonder the locals (Indians) wanted to kick his butt or better yet kill him. > Here is Ruxton's commentary: > We ourselves suffered extremely, turning constantly, and rolling almost > into the embers of the scanty fire; and towards daybreak I really > thought I should have frozen bodily. ...... and for those that think you won't do damage, Thanksgiving a year ago on an outing it dipped down in the sub teens -05 to -10, we where in a wedge tent, with ground cloth and several blankets each. My toes started to go numb and then burn, had two pair of heavy wool socks on too. End result today I have nerve damage at approx. 28-30%, so you can freeze parts as Wynn stated Ruxton "I should have frozen bodily". Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 19 Dec 2001 11:03:59 -0800 (PST) > to give an example to the 'document zealots' the > > lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to cover > > the ground of their tipis; but where is the > > documentation either in print or art? > > How did you find that out. That was supposed to be a secret amongst the > lakota! Capt. Lahti, for documentation purposes of which the university of which i attended accepts the quotes from acknowledged authorities as reference worthy of documentation. i lived in the tipi of bakers on rapid creek in '86' while working on the base at ellsworth. from there i made connections around rapid city where i met a Wica'sa Wankan from Sharp's corner whom i have ties with(?!?*#*###). in '87' i moved to cheyenne river reservation to trap beavs and learn from the descendants of the once mighty Lakota. i provided choppa ota to the Larabee T'o'spa( forgive spelling but if you know them you understand the meaning) in exchange for rent in what was probly the last old style log home above green grass on the moreau river downstream from HUGE GLASS's mauling site. in the years i have spent with them and returned as a Lakota(if you understand the word) according to Walker{author of Lakota Society in the early 1900s) as well as the way they treat me which says more, i developed a freindship and bonding with them. as far as diamond willow mats being a secret i doubt it seriously. it was just something non observed evidently in any early writings.. when many(ota) of their people saw my sincerity they shared a lot of things with me that they wouldn't have trusted with many of their own relations of today. you know like pedifiles, drunks, commercial alledged wica'sa wakan and other 'sell outs' of blood yet not the 'red road'. in my experience among them, THEIR RELIGION you do not print nor speak too openly about in regards to the old ways. it is not the living camp conditions of which they regarded as secretive although the ray their culture is under would make a novice beleive it was such. it was a young wica'sa and his aunt who acknowled this to me upon which i found many elders confirmed. but I suppose we should not believe our > eyes when we see such lodges in old photos and up on the Reservation today. Not everything can be seen in a photo as the hides are covering the mats as they did not want the moisture roting those precious robes. You are correct in your sarcasm of saying you should not beleive what is on the reservation today. that horse/buffaloe culture is gone, the remnants is all there is. the res. system is built on lies and deceit, to take everything you hear and see as gospel is like beleiving everything someone released from prison says. you have been conned many times if you take the present reality as the way they were. > > the only > > trustworthy sources to reference this may be cathy > > smith or larry belitz; both advisors in 'dances with > > wolves' > > What did they have to say? Kathy and Larry know very well much of their culture. i have not quized either of this. i left it open to any of us to do so. i beleive in their research they probly know this too. SECRETIVE ground covers!!!!!!!!!! someone beleived a a snow job on them. > > . > > > > BY THE WAY THE BAYBERRY WAX IS A SEASONAL CANDLE SOLD > > DURING CHRISTMAS FOR RELIGIOUS RITUAL. SO YE CAN GIT > > YORE SELF DOWN TO THA LOCAL TRADING POST/ DOLLAR STORE > > AND GRAB A FEW. I'M SURE SOME SKINNER WILL WANT TO > > BLEND BEES WAX BAYBERRY WAX, AND TALLOW FOR A WET > > RESISTANT CANVAS. > > Did the trappers only do this around Christmas time when bay berries were > available? Why would some skinner want to add to the weight of his shelter THE point i'm making is if you want BAYBERRY wax the season is now to get it at a dollar store(on the webb it's $15.95)this is for those whom also use BEESWAX and/or tallow on some of their gear. or if someone stumbles upon a document whether written or an interveiw with an acknowledged authority about it's use. if you ever hunted in the fall in montana and had your leanto canvas freeze you would probly want something that would not do so. since they moved so often in trapping mildew and frozzen canvas it would not be desirable. oct 10th of bow season it snowed heavy on me at 8500 ft. moving that frozen canvas every few days as they would have to as they trapped along a tributary would not keep the canvas functional for long. Capt. you have to remember they did this outdoor stuff everyday not for only 32 days horsehack as i did this season or intervals of doins. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: explanation and apology Date: 19 Dec 2001 11:22:28 -0800 (PST) MR> RATCLIFF, Having taken every composition course in the English dept. at the last univ. i attended as well as realizing the inferiority of the English language based on historical conquests i 'relax and enjoy' in my e-mails most of the time. any gibberish is only FEEBLE IF NOT PLAYFUL attempt to humurously duplicate the 'fur trade' language. i realize their are some aristocratic and prim and proper types of skinners whom reflect 'old colonial williamsburg' in their mentality. To my knowledge and intention i have slandered no one nor intend to. if i say something about a person living or in our iconized past i either know it for a fact, read it, or i'll state it as probable gossip/conjecture. all hypotheticly beleived theorys are stated as such or i lend certain sway toward my argument which could be fact. for your sake and others i'll hold back on the pseudo improvised fur trade languge. but please don't ask me to use grammar and spell check. i beleive i hear a very educated and easterner if not a californian in you as i have caused offense with you. none intended however, i'm only intereseted in spuring the debate whereby we grasp greater knowledge and deeper reseach. thanks for your input. > > Clint, my man, your post is very nearly gibberish. > The rambling examples > > you cite are largely a steaming pile of > mis-information, mild slander and > > general nonsense. I could go on, but I won't. > > Lanney Ratcliff > > AMM #1585 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ Date: 16 Dec 2001 16:33:18 +0000 Better to have many guns than to have to use many shovels, I reckon. There was a photographer about 25 yrs. ago that were taking pictures of buffalo down at the preserve near Lawton, Okla. that got hit by a bull and it 'bout tore him in half. He went two ways and his camera flew the other. Buff can be very unpredictable, and they can turn on a dime at full tilt. Amazing critters. Waaauuugh! Don Secondine >From: "BARRY CONNER" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ >Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 06:48:50 -0700 > >Many guns when we go, usually have 3-4 animals going down at the same time. >Easier to have each man carry 2 guns than have to carry his busted butt >out. >. > >Take care, >Buck Conner >"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 4:56 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo kill........ > > > > > > In a message dated 12/14/01 9:46:57 AM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes: > > > > << NO, NO, NO - don't reload fast yet, when the pressure is on with a >buffalo > > > > running at you full bore, you have more important things to do, like >taking > > > > a second shot with the extra gun you have laying on the ground. >> > > > > Haaaaa......you mean ya got more than one gun!!!!!?! > > > > Magpie > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Writers & Documentation Date: 19 Dec 2001 12:27:45 -0700 Ladies & Gentlemen, One must remember we all started this life style "new" at one point or another, some had more "brass" than most and published their thoughts and ideas, usually with the lack of documentation and sometimes without trying what they wrote about before publishing. I could entertain, embarrass and bore you with all the mistakes that a number of our favorite writers have made over 40 plus years in this sport (sport - used for a lack of better word). When called on their mistakes, quotes, documentation, etc. - most where big enough to admit that they made a mistake or had not really tried what they had written about, that's a plus as far as I see it for that writer. There are a few that will not say "oops" or "yes" - "I screwed up" - funny seems these folks are of like minds and similar time periods, now doing video's. I have seen Mark Baker write that he was mistaken in a few issues back in Muzzleloader, that's nice - "brass", most wouldn't do that to their reading audience. The best thing one can do is continue to read, research and document for your persona, discuss with others for their view and share that information with others. Hell until I started Clark & Sons Mercantile years ago (those that know me know I'm not bragging) there wasn't anyone offering or talking about correct period foods and damn few where carrying anything other than piss poor parched corn and it wasn't really correct. That's how this business was developed, there was a need, no-one supplying and nobody was talking period edibles. We even got into uncultured edibles (wild edibles) for the east, mid-west and west regions, correct period seeds, if it was of the food line or used in camp we had it. I was told by the former editor of "On The Trail" that I was "wasting my time, these guys will eat what they want, correct or junk food, whatever is the easiest". I got him to print a few food articles with the help of Brother AMM member Monsieur LaVelle, (him being educated and degreed in the field), all of a sudden everyone is writing about correct edibles, so it goes to say "readers do pay attention". Sweet making some folks that "know everything" bite their tongues. . Like we have said before RESEARCH is the key and share your findings, write articles, take part in events with your new found knowledge - folks we all gain with what you know and are willing to share. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 11:04 AM > > ANY time one seeks to lead what he deems to be lessor > men than himself and sets himself up as a cultural > icon and mentor he receives both praise, exaltation, > and critisism. So we are not slandering Mark A. Baker > yet glorifying his accomplishments and 'refining' if > not 'tempering his metal' of his knowledge and quest > for par excellance in the black powder related arts. > > AS Mark is a Guru of 'Skinning' for most at one time > or another, it must be remembered that it was not only > the 80's in which he was ignorant and fallible but > just like the Capt. who posts on this site said with > the backing of his expertise in Fire fighting Mark > still has problems in the research area in regards to > the rotting effect/deteriation of his oil cloth. > another > example is from a local i met at Chadron at the museum > where i did a 'sobriety ride' in '95' with the > oglalla. he pointed out to me that Mark's article > around that time on 'rendering fat' was totally > worthless in accuracy. this was a museum local from a > farming community. > the point even if Baker is a God-like father to > some, like Arnold is to bodybuilding, he still makes > ignorant mistakes from time to time like all of us. > yet 90% of what he researches is most likely accurate. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:buck---glad to have you back Date: 19 Dec 2001 12:30:02 -0700 Hawk, Glad to hear from you, good shootin' brother, sounds like you got lots of meat to care for, I'll let you get to it. Take care, Buck "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 12:16 PM > still the same old grouchy crotchey person as ever on this end---hard to > change--getting too old > > Glad to see you back in circulation pard---just made it home from the > annual treck to make winter meat---filled all my taggs---2 bucks and 2 > does all with ML---3 with the new underhammers---got a nice 8 point > thanksgiving day and filled my last ticket----if you need anything give > me a shout--- > > nuff said--- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > On Sat, 15 Dec 2001 06:32:34 -0700 "BARRY CONNER" > writes: > > Hawk you old fa..... how are you, good health I hope. > > > > Take care, > > Buck Conner > > "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 > >. > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AGE, DAMP PREVENTION, AND WHAT THEY DID. Date: 19 Dec 2001 11:39:30 -0800 (PST) Wynn, many of those i know in the non AMM circles of rendezvous are 'arm chair philosophers' as far as research and doins goes. what i mean is that they do go to rendezvous yet they have only literary knowledge when it comes to trapping and hunting. most never have done both. as you know in research many times we come to bridges that are washed out, in that there is a gap in question. that is my point, in that we also have to read between the lines in what and why were thay doing what is wrote. the term 'document zealots' should apply to all of us sometime in that what is wrote is our foundation on facts. i myself am a document zealot at least 80% - 90% of the time, yet i realize there is always another fur trade mystery to unravel. what i was alluding to is those, sometime me included who are 'fossilized' in what they read, never going beyound the consensus of the majority oppinion in regards to filling in gaps. if you ask i'll cite examples from research documents. otherwise bravo for your efforts to purify and refine historical and functional knowledge about the fur trade. geez i am always amazed at those whom are overly sensitive in the quest for knowledge. perhaps it is because our mom's and wives have had too much influence the past century. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: thanks capt. Date: 19 Dec 2001 11:58:32 -0800 (PST) > > > > > I personally know of > > > I'm sure we all know stories but we don't air them > in public. We work within > to change things for the better. CAPT. LAHTI, I'll try, try to refrain from anything a non AMM member or canidate would not understand. or a problem that may become a barricade in the future. in my citing of those cases i realize that where a majority is concerned and standards have been lowered a few or and individual will only be ostrazised, generally. i would hope the rootenization of the the past values will again surface in full. and i beleive as i beleive you do, quality in our doings supercedes the quanity of our numbers. thank you for your correction, no wonder your a capitan.> > > > If your not picking on someone then what is up? Your > on a terror for some > reason. IF you and i personably knew each other you would understand where i was coming from. say around a compfire or over coffee at mcdonalds for years. i'll have to mellow down my responses as evidently my past religuous backgroud tempered with a zealous personality whom almost attended law school may be ruffling the members on this site. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 19 Dec 2001 12:41:18 -0800 Clint, I personally think that is a mistake, lest they have something besides their "learned" opinion to back it up with. It is absolutely amazing the bs that comes out of our University "authorities" these days with respect to this country's history. But that is another subject. I am also skeptical of the "truth" offered by folks who have gotten caught up in "Indian" culture as learned on today's reservations. But be that as it may, it is another subject. As to canvas getting moldy, frozen, wet, having to be moved, etc. that is your modern experience and while true to that experience, has little if anything to do with whether such was a practice or problem for the Mt. Man/fur trapper of the 1800's. As I said, if you want to use canvas and want to wax it or oil it, by all means do so. If you want to discuss it's authenticity then I invite you to come up with something besides speculation. At least acknowledge that it's speculation. And I will repeat, I enjoy Mark Baker and his writings. But I am not one of his disciples, just a casual fan of a good writer and hard working researcher. > You are correct in your sarcasm of saying you should > not believe what is on the reservation today. With respect, I don't think you understood what I was being "gently" sarcastic about and what I think we should believe. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." Subject: re: MtMan-List: Brass parts? Dare I ask? Date: 10 Dec 2001 14:41:00 -0600 Yep, methinks you fell in the mud after all. But if I wuz you I'd try not to make tracks with all that mud and castor cuz the wimmens group at the Pentecostal church down the road are ready to track down the bad boy that stole their snakes. Watch yer topnot. Big Thunder Grenada, MS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: thanks capt. Date: 19 Dec 2001 12:49:52 -0800 i'll > have to mellow down my responses as evidently my past > religuous backgroud tempered with a zealous > personality whom almost attended law school may be > ruffling the members on this site. Clint, I'm sure that would help and be appreciated. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off topic question to listowner or moderator Date: 19 Dec 2001 14:21:21 -0700 Dean Rudy is the owner and caretaker, he also manages the AMM site for the membership of the AMM. This site is provided out of the kindness of Dean's efforts to get like mind's together, to share information and ideas as we have seen in resent posts. Look what we have learned and shared without all the baloney that other lists put up with, once in a while we get off the subject/time frame/period or whatever one likes to refer to the list as, but mainly we talk fur trade and usually we all have a good feeling when the topic is finished. Buck. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 2:10 PM > <<...seems to think this is his list, >> > > I was wondering, who does "own" this list? One person or a conglomerate of individuals? I.E. - who do we thank? > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth Date: 19 Dec 2001 14:51:41 -0700 I have to agree that aging a gun when it would be new at the time of your persona doesn't make much sense to me, I do wipe my brass with used shooting patches for one reason and one reason only - to tone down the brightness and reflection that you get in bright sunlight. It will sure show game where your at or anyone else happening to see the reflection, like in the old movies when a guy sees the reflection off a scope before he's shot - poor example, but you get the idea. I have several F&I and Rev War originals that have survived all this time and look better than some of the stuff guys are carrying today (reproductions), if your life and your family's life hinged on the condition your rifle was in, won't you take care of it ? Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 11:22 PM > In a message dated 12/9/01 8:22:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, > mail4dog@yahoo.com writes: > > << I don't understand what the deal is with aging brass! > If you were alive in the 1820-40 era, and bought a > gun, it would be new, and just normal useage will age > it to a period correct patina. >> > > I have a real problem with this too Dog! Doesn't make sense to me to take a > nice new rifle & beat the heck out of it with chains & such & smear the brass > with old cleaning patches or nut hulls to artificially age 'em. Maybe that's > OK if what the owner wants is a "wall hanger", but I USE my rifles & figure > they'll get enough of their scratches, dents & darkened brass honestly. Like > Big Thunder said; "Take it beaver trappin' & fall in the mud with it!" To my > way of thinking, there just ain't no substitute for hard use & age to get > "that look". One of my rifles is 8 years old & looking just the way I think > it should. Besides, as Dog said, we're reenacting the period when these guns > were NEW or just a few years old. I seriously doubt Crockett, Bridger, > Boone, Meek or any of the people we try so hard to emulate would buy a gun > that looked 150 years old. Another 2 cents for the pot! > > NM > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: explanation and apology Date: 19 Dec 2001 16:40:09 -0800 . Clint wrote ; i beleive i hear a very educated and easterner if not a californian in you >>Clint, Take a couple of aspirin. Lay down for awhile. I'm quite sure Brother Lanney Ratcliff, blood descendant of Thomas Jefferson Rusk, will get back to you on the question of his residence and ancestry. i'm only intereseted in spuring the debate whereby we grasp greater knowledge and deeper reseach. thanks for your input. >>That's why all of us are here. Thus far your posts have been filled with ' name dropping' remarks, very limited quotes of documented fact, and the spreading of unfounded rumor, not to mention the fact that they are barely readable. I strongly suggest you " grasp " some of the knowledge that many of the list members have already shared with you. Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth Date: 19 Dec 2001 16:46:12 -0800 Buck wrote ; I have to agree that aging a gun when it would be new at the time of your persona doesn't make much sense to me, I do wipe my brass with used shooting patches for one reason and one reason only - to tone down the brightness and reflection that you get in bright sunlight. Buck, I have done the exact same thing. Once you do that one time, all you need do afterward is just use the gun and maintain it. I think this was a common practice for the very reasons you gave. Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 19 Dec 2001 15:55:40 -0800 (PST) lARRY, I believe you'll find there was > little or no cloth or > canvas of any kind taken to the rocky mountains, in > the early years. I HARDILY AGREE FROM THE LIST OF GOODS TAKEN TO RENDEVOUS THAT OIL CLOTH WOULD BE RARE IF NON-EXISTENT IN SOME YEARS. > I have used treated canvas and homemade oilcloth > without any problems for > many years. In fact I have never seen anyone have a > treated canvas or > oilcloth treking shelter catch fire. I'm not saying > it can't or won't > happen. > the > knowledge needed to make > oilcloth, and I feel they did in climates where it > was appropriate. Besides > that, we just aren't nearly as tough as they were. > The very best of us > wouldn't make a pimple on Bridger's arse. Not > saying we shouldn't strive to > be as historically accurate as possible, but the > fact is we live in a > totally different world. I don't think it is wrong > to use a water-resistant > shelter in order to be able to get up and go to work > on mon. morning. LARRY, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE STATING, yet the problem or rather debate has been centered on authenticity of what we do. it is like my compromise in sewing non braintan items in artificial sinew because i'm lazy and do not want to re-stitch with waxed cotton thread or linen continually. or Capt. Lahti's compromise by using treated cloth. like capt. has INDIRECTLY pointed out to me. If i use waxed, tallowed, beeswaxed, or whale derived wax on my canvas i am almost as non period as his and others in their usage of modern chemically treated canvas. as far as your idea of our forefather making oil cloth, i doubt if they used linseed oil and the iron oxide/or burnt umber on the canvas before they left saint louis. it is most likely as baker stated it was a covering used to ship the freight in the early, very early years. i'm not saying someone could not have had one made while in the east like drumond or the poor comoner trapper. but it had to be a rare thing like beeswaxed, whale or bayberry derixed waxed canvas. it's like wearing florescant orange using a muzzloader on big game. when in a wilderness area with supposedly hardcore outdoorsmen out there do you wear florescant because it's the law or do yo wear authentic skins and other items? we all compromise the authenticity of the fur trade years or we would be poachers to the state as they were poaching on the tribes. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: List Owner Date: 19 Dec 2001 19:48:36 -0500 > Dean Rudy is the owner and caretaker, he also manages the AMM site for the > membership of the AMM. This site is provided out of the kindness of Dean's > efforts to get like mind's together, to share information and ideas as we > have seen in resent posts. On this note, since being "List Owner" amd probably primary moderator (it this is moderated), I think we all owe Dean a great big THANK YOU for all he has done. Even though I have been BP shooting since 1977, and an NRA certified BP Instructor, and been doing Vous and reenactments since 1988, I have learned TONS of stuff from here. Periodically there are wee-wee contests, but it all come out (no pun intended) in the end. Thanks Dean, for all the hard work.... Regards, Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 19 Dec 2001 17:12:39 -0800 or Capt. > Lahti's compromise by using treated cloth. like capt. > has INDIRECTLY pointed out to me. Clint, I don't know why I'm bothering, but to my recollection I made it pretty clear that I had gotten away from using "treated" cloth for my shelter finding that plain cloth sheds water just fine. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snowshoe treatment Date: 19 Dec 2001 18:42:24 -0700 Spar Varnish, marine type that displaces water pretty good, John Kramer can probably tell you more Todd or may even have a better product that he produces. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 5:33 PM > Hello all, > > I'm refurbishing a pair of old snowshoes. Anyone have any suggestions as > to the best kind of varnish to use on the lacing? > I doubt it was used historically....what was used to help preserve the > lacing or webbing? Were they greased? I guess it's possible to use pitch, > but it seems that it would be quite brittle and break off. What are your > thoughts? > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for blackpowder club in Edmonton ,Albert Date: 19 Dec 2001 18:48:37 -0700 Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 4:30 PM > Someone once gave me the E-Mail address and website for a > newsletter and gunclub located in Edmonton, Alberta Canada. Try Northwest Journal at: http://www.agt.net/public/gottfred/nwj.html > Also, does anyone know if Clark & Son Mercantile is still in > business. The website I had for them doesn't work anymore. > If you have their current website, or if they sold out and you > know the new owners info, please send that to me. Paul Jones in Texas bought the farm last summer from me, can be reached at: http://www.clarkandsons.com/ > Thanks! > > Traphand > Rick Petzoldt > Traphand@aol.com Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas /Bedding Date: 19 Dec 2001 21:15:30 EST --part1_117.9b224e9.2952a3c2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The Chronicles of George C. Yount" while with William Wolfskill in 1830 in the Wasatch Range wrote: The blankets used by these travellers of the wilderness are of a peculiar kind, very thick and almost impervious to water- A small stream of water running directly through a corner of their camp, they found not difficult to keep open for the use of themselves and their animals. and a blazing fire was kept burning night & day in the center- With their Beaver-skins they were enabled to cover themselves and provide a comfortable bed. Thus they lay , shut out from all the world, while the storm was hawling around them, and the snow falling in astonishing profusion-- Mark " Roadkill" Loader --part1_117.9b224e9.2952a3c2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The Chronicles of George C. Yount"  while with William Wolfskill in 1830 in the Wasatch Range wrote:

The blankets used by these travellers of the wilderness are of a peculiar kind, very thick and almost impervious to water- A small stream of water running directly through a corner of their camp, they found not difficult to keep open for the use of themselves and their animals. and a blazing fire was kept burning night & day in the center- With their Beaver-skins they were enabled to cover themselves and provide a comfortable bed. Thus they lay , shut out from all the world, while the storm was hawling around them, and the snow falling in astonishing profusion--

Mark " Roadkill" Loader --part1_117.9b224e9.2952a3c2_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 19 Dec 2001 20:55:15 -0800 Clint Garrett wrote ; we all compromise the authenticity of the fur trade >>OK. Enough of this B.S. ! Just what the hell IS your point ? Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: List Owner Date: 19 Dec 2001 22:08:44 -0500 thanks dean for the hard work---YOU DONE GOOD and yes i was shouting--- nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mitch Post Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 19 Dec 2001 23:04:16 -0800 (PST) --- larry pendleton wrote: >OK. Enough of this B.S. ! Just what the hell IS > your point ? > Pendleton > " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never > know . " > I agree-EXACTLY what is your point Mr.Clint Garrett?? You make little or NO sense in most if not ALL of your posts. I have read and re-read you inane babble. You have been semi-agreed with, argued with and ignored. You have insulted nearly everyone. Where do you get off with this "holier-than-thou" attitude. Debate,discussion and disagreements are welcome. Lengthy,arrogant,"Fluffy" disertations are useless and annoying. Maybe you should start your own discussion group.... Not feeling too respectful......Mitch Post ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 20 Dec 2001 03:21:55 EST In a message dated 12/19/01 11:05:04 PM, hiparoo@yahoo.com writes: << Not feeling too respectful......Mitch Post >> Steady Red Dog.....steady..... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ronny Oswalt, Sr." Subject: MtMan-List: Season's Best To Dean and Friends Date: 20 Dec 2001 07:14:38 -0600 Wishing the best of holiday seasons and a Happy Hogmanay to Dean Rudy. This list and the resources you have provided and protected for us are among the greatest gifts some of us misfits have ever enjoyed. Thank you! And to all others on the list I would like to thank you for making a better year for me. On Christmas day I will lift a glass and make a toast to all who are trappin' in this valley. Big Thunder Grenada, MS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: documentation Date: 20 Dec 2001 07:29:54 -0600 Buck Conner said, Buck, I sure can't debate with you on what was 'right or wrong' in the Shining Mountains for the RMFT period, but it is well written that in the Eastern states parched corn was a common staple for hunters, travelers, and etc. Period correct? Yes. Specifically correct for trappers in the [western] mountains? Unless they brought it or got it from traders, I dunno. Will accept your experience on that. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas Date: 20 Dec 2001 08:15:58 -0700 Clint, I realy don't care what University's except as documentation, Mark Baker has done good work but he like the rest of us is revising his thinking constantly. In Henry Marie Brackenridge Journal he mentions the use of a sail on there boat, this would mean that sheet goods like canvas or Russian sheeting was used by those heading up the Missouri (Fur Trade) Tent's and shelters were used for centuries and were so common as to not be worth mentioning. As for Indian knowledge gotten from modern reservation period types I would listen to them but take it with a grain of salt. If you look at Catlin's drawings you see that some Indians would throw of there traditional ways in favor of white dress and technology within days of exposure too it. If you are going to make grand statements as you did in youre first post then don't be surprised at the response. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Clint Garrett >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas >Date: Wed, Dec 19, 2001, 12:03 PM > > >> to give an example to the 'document zealots' the >> > lakota used to use split diamond willow mats to >cover >> > the ground of their tipis; but where is the >> > documentation either in print or art? >> >> How did you find that out. That was supposed to be a >secret amongst >the >> lakota! > >Capt. Lahti, > for documentation purposes of which the university >of which i attended accepts the quotes from >acknowledged authorities as reference worthy of >documentation. i lived in the tipi of bakers on rapid >creek in '86' while working on the base at ellsworth. >from there i made connections around rapid city where >i met a Wica'sa Wankan from Sharp's corner whom i have >ties with(?!?*#*###). in '87' i moved to cheyenne >river reservation to trap beavs and learn from the >descendants of the once mighty Lakota. i provided >choppa ota to the Larabee T'o'spa( forgive spelling >but if you know them you understand the meaning) in >exchange for rent in what was probly the last old >style log home above green grass on the moreau river >downstream from HUGE GLASS's mauling site. > in the years i have spent with them and returned as >a Lakota(if you understand the word) according to >Walker{author of Lakota Society in the early 1900s) as >well as the way they treat me which says more, i >developed a freindship and bonding with them. > as far as diamond willow mats being a secret i >doubt it seriously. it was just something non >observed evidently in any early writings.. when >many(ota) of their people saw my sincerity they shared >a lot of things with me that they wouldn't have >trusted with many of their own relations of today. >you know like pedifiles, drunks, commercial alledged >wica'sa wakan and other 'sell outs' of blood yet not >the 'red road'. in my experience among them, THEIR >RELIGION you do not print nor speak too openly about >in regards to the old ways. it is not the living camp >conditions of which they regarded as secretive >although the ray their culture is under would make a >novice beleive it was such. > >it was a young wica'sa and his aunt who acknowled this >to me upon which i found many elders confirmed. > > >but I suppose we should not >believe >our >> eyes when we see such lodges in old photos and up on >the Reservation >today. > >Not everything can be seen in a photo as the hides are >covering the mats as they did not want the moisture >roting those precious robes. >You are correct in your sarcasm of saying you should >not beleive what is on the reservation today. that >horse/buffaloe culture is gone, the remnants is all >there is. the res. system is built on lies and >deceit, to take everything you hear and see as gospel >is like beleiving everything someone released from >prison says. you have been conned many times if you >take the present reality as the way they were. >> >> the only >> > trustworthy sources to reference this may be cathy >> > smith or larry belitz; both advisors in 'dances >with >> > wolves' >> >> What did they have to say? > >Kathy and Larry know very well much of their culture. >i have not quized either of this. i left it open to >any of us to do so. i beleive in their research they >probly know this too. > >SECRETIVE ground covers!!!!!!!!!! someone beleived a >a snow job on them. >> >> . >> > >> > BY THE WAY THE BAYBERRY WAX IS A SEASONAL CANDLE >SOLD >> > DURING CHRISTMAS FOR RELIGIOUS RITUAL. SO YE CAN >GIT >> > YORE SELF DOWN TO THA LOCAL TRADING POST/ DOLLAR >STORE >> > AND GRAB A FEW. I'M SURE SOME SKINNER WILL WANT >TO >> > BLEND BEES WAX BAYBERRY WAX, AND TALLOW FOR A WET >> > RESISTANT CANVAS. >> >> Did the trappers only do this around Christmas time >when bay berries >were >> available? Why would some skinner want to add to the >weight of his >shelter > >THE point i'm making is if you want BAYBERRY wax the >season is now to get it at a dollar store(on the webb >it's $15.95)this is for those whom also use BEESWAX >and/or tallow on some of their gear. or if someone >stumbles upon a document whether written or an >interveiw with an acknowledged authority about it's >use. >if you ever hunted in the fall in montana and had your >leanto canvas freeze you would probly want something >that would not do so. since they moved so often in >trapping mildew and frozzen canvas it would not be >desirable. oct 10th of bow season it snowed heavy on >me at 8500 ft. moving that frozen canvas every few >days as they would have to as they trapped along a >tributary would not keep the canvas functional for >long. Capt. you have to remember they did this outdoor >stuff everyday not for only 32 days horsehack as i did >this season or intervals of doins. > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of >your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com >or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth Date: 20 Dec 2001 09:02:30 -0700 Didn't realize you boys had that much sunlight to worry about bright brass in Texas, seems like its always raining, flooding or burning up from the lack of rain - smile Larry, I know Lanney will have a few kind remarks !!!! Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 5:46 PM > Buck wrote ; > I have to agree that aging a gun when it would be new at the time of your > persona doesn't make much sense to me, I do wipe my brass with used shooting > patches for one reason and one reason only - to tone down the brightness and > reflection that you get in bright sunlight. > > Buck, > I have done the exact same thing. Once you do that one time, all you need > do afterward is just use the gun and maintain it. I think this was a common > practice for the very reasons you gave. > Pendleton > " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: documentation Date: 20 Dec 2001 09:33:04 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 6:29 AM > Buck Conner said, > > Buck, I sure can't debate with you on what was 'right or wrong' in the > Shining Mountains for the RMFT period, but it is well written that in the > Eastern states parched corn was a common staple for hunters, travelers, and > etc. He' Frank, Most parched corn being sold today (not all but much of it) is of yellow corn varity, when the correct corn would have been the old "flint" white varity that is documentated as you have mentioned, it was traded all over the east and even found as far west as the Mississippi settlements. Did you know that Jefferson was the one that brought, traded or purchased many of the vegetables we have today when traveling in Europe. He was the one that got many vegetables like tomatoes from France along with a number of different other types of edibles uncommon to North America. For a good research book see "Thomas Jefferson's Garden Book", very interesting reading and you'll be suprised at the different edibles he grew. Blue Heron Mercantile has been working on this for several years, problem has been supply and demand, can never keep a realible source. > Period correct? Yes. Specifically correct for trappers in the [western] > mountains? Unless they brought it or got it from traders, I dunno. Will > accept your experience on that. Out of the Mexico trade that came into the Rockies was a steady supply of parched "blue" corn soaked in a sea salt brine (Indian producers claimed it made the corn keep longer), it found it's way to the Mississippi in the East, to the borders in the North and West to the shining sea. Smith talked about seeing Utes boiling sea salt for this use and other uses in their daily lives. I can only handle a small amount of the salt, found if one shakes a bag of this corn for a few minutes it will work its way off the corn (like tumbling brass cases) then dump out the extra salt or better yet put in the corn in a clean cloth bag. Some will disagree, but if they read the book suggested they'll be amazed at what this man had going and how it changed even our lives. Buck. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 20 Dec 2001 10:33:09 -0800 (PST) capt., you are not bothering, due to my ignorance about scrolling to earlier posts on this site or/an maybe deleting your prior post of the said document; you should forgive me on the misquote. glad to be corrected by a definite superior enthusiast. 'incidently i am only interested in being as period as possible. to this date i have plain canvas(some dyed, some smoked from cold environment camp). for the record. yet i'm sure you agree that due to the ignorance of many of the prior trappers, some could not rite about the methods they used. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 20 Dec 2001 14:12:34 -0500 Clint, Today you wrote "" 'incidentally i am only interested in being as period as possible", but yet yesterday you wrote "my compromise in sewing non braintan items in artificial sinew" So which is it?? I am confused...Period as possible or waxed NYLON? Don't remember seeing any nylon on the trade lists... Mebby I missed it. . So if you are going to spout about being period correct, I would suggest you rid yourself of the word "compromise" and either do it right, or strive each day to do it better. ESPECIALLY on things you KNOW are wrong and not even close. If you don't care to take that path, shut the hell up. Cause chances are you are influencing someone that DOES want to make the effort to do it as correct as possible. And as I recall, you said it was pure laziness for using nylon... Sad damned excuse, if you ask me... So if you will, stay the hell away from my camp, you probably wouldn't find it to your likeing. Sincerely D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo prices in montana Date: 20 Dec 2001 12:16:29 -0800 (PST) barry, for those future buff hunters. i caught an add in the missoula paper yesterday and today. Hunt or Haul: Bison cows, $500; Heard Bulls, $1500; Calves, $300 (406) 676-3068 anther today read; BISON FOR sale, you shout or live, price depending on size. 676-0896 wk days after 6pm, anytime on wknds. this is in the is within 20-40 miles of missoula, Rano i hear. Clint Garrett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas /Bedding Date: 20 Dec 2001 12:44:38 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C18954.160D19A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roadkill, There ya go. Someone did use his beaver pelts to make it through a cold = night. Now the only question is how prevelant it was and was that an = emergency expedient or something done quite frequently. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MarkLoader@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:15 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas /Bedding "The Chronicles of George C. Yount" while with William Wolfskill in = 1830 in the Wasatch Range wrote:=20 The blankets used by these travellers of the wilderness are of a = peculiar kind, very thick and almost impervious to water- A small stream = of water running directly through a corner of their camp, they found not = difficult to keep open for the use of themselves and their animals. and = a blazing fire was kept burning night & day in the center- With their = Beaver-skins they were enabled to cover themselves and provide a = comfortable bed. Thus they lay , shut out from all the world, while the = storm was hawling around them, and the snow falling in astonishing = profusion--=20 Mark " Roadkill" Loader=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C18954.160D19A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Roadkill,
 
There ya go. Someone did use his beaver = pelts to=20 make it through a cold night. Now the only question is how prevelant it = was and=20 was that an emergency expedient or something done quite = frequently.
 
Capt. Lahti'
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 MarkLoader@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, = 2001 6:15=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas = /Bedding

"The = Chronicles of=20 George C. Yount"  while with William Wolfskill in 1830 in the = Wasatch=20 Range wrote:

The blankets used by these travellers of the = wilderness=20 are of a peculiar kind, very thick and almost impervious to water- A = small=20 stream of water running directly through a corner of their camp, they = found=20 not difficult to keep open for the use of themselves and their = animals. and a=20 blazing fire was kept burning night & day in the center- With = their=20 Beaver-skins they were enabled to cover themselves and provide a = comfortable=20 bed. Thus they lay , shut out from all the world, while the storm was = hawling=20 around them, and the snow falling in astonishing profusion-- =

Mark "=20 Roadkill" Loader ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C18954.160D19A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: documentation, reservation truth??? Date: 20 Dec 2001 12:50:53 -0800 (PST) I personally think that is a mistake, lest they have something besides their "learned" opinion to back it up with. It is absolutely amazing the bs that comes out of our University "authorities" these days with respect to this country's history. But that is another subject. I TOTALLY understand what you mean, yet if we are going to base our credibility on documented sources, and exclude verbal accounts from accepted authorities or lessor authorities other than in print. it is like saying if so in so told you this at a particular doins, or you heard a witness say it on the witness stand that it has no weight. in present academia verbal comments are as worthy as paintings of the period in the present 'muzzleloader' mag a writer points out that even the paintings of some during the period are inaccurate depictions of the fur trade in some sense. i will have to get back to my home to quote the article for you. the point is that, writing, art, and verbal coments by authority figures are all subject to critism or we have to lie to ourselves into a beleif no one lied or stretched things a bit prior to 1840. it's like their are some whom react as if the u.s. constitution were handed down from mount siani when they reflect upon it. thus even with or without documentation sometimes you have to take things with a grain of salt. I am also skeptical of the "truth" offered by folks who have gotten caught up in "Indian" culture as learned on today's reservations. But be that as it may, it is another subject. Totally in agreement with you as i also question the credibility of reservation raised indians. but then we have all read of the past highly idealized honest oreinted integrety of the tribal members prior to the 'res'. example; Laubins in his Indian archery book, interveiwed some Hunkpapa veterans of the Custer annilation incident at the greasy grass. thease are men of a prior period, not born on the res. he asked them how they made stone oreinted arrowheads, they replied they never made them but found them at 'devils tower' which the 'iktomi'(lakota for spider) had left for them. correct me if i'm wrong i reflect something about elf or little people from that long ago reading. this is a plagurization on my part, yet shows even then what they told him was not nessasarily the truth. documents like even accounts from the BIBLE have to be weighed. by the way before anyone one starts a subjective war about getting offended about my comment on the BIBLE, i too beleive the book, yet question it, nuff said. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 20 Dec 2001 13:09:24 -0800 > capt., > you are not bothering, due to my ignorance about > scrolling to earlier posts on this site or/an maybe > deleting your prior post of the said document; you > should forgive me on the misquote. glad to be > corrected by a definite superior enthusiast. Clint, I do not count myself superior to any one in any way. And be assured that is the truth. I am more than willing to accept anyones sincere appologies for virtually any transgression as I would have them extend the same consideration toe as I will surely need it. Now if your interested in being as pc as possible then you set yourself a high bar and must refuse that which you can not provide the evidence. Contemplating what anyone of an earlier time may have done is dangerous ground if for no other reason than the simple truth that they did not think the way we do now. Our reality is not their reality. What we call common sense today is a product of all that has gone before us. They did not have at hand what has gone since. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Jewell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 20 Dec 2001 17:20:29 -0500 Am I having a slow brain day or are others out there getting as confused as I am while trying to follow this *conversation*??? Anyway... I'll take this opportunity to wish everyone the best during the holiday season. Tim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth Date: 20 Dec 2001 16:16:35 -0800 Didn't realize you boys had that much sunlight to worry about bright brass in Texas, seems like its always raining, flooding or burning up from the lack of rain - smile Larry, I know Lanney will have a few kind remarks !!!! Take care, Buck Conner >>Ya know Buck, a good part of Colorado was once part of Texas. It could be again ! Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 20 Dec 2001 16:25:50 -0800 Capt. Lahti wrote ; Now if your interested in being as pc as possible then you set yourself a high bar and must refuse that which you can not provide the evidence >>Well said Capt. That is a very high bar indeed. Of course Naked with a Rock is definitely period correct. I wonder if that is what Mr. Garrett is talking about ? Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: documentation, reservation truth??? Date: 20 Dec 2001 16:20:59 -0800 MR. CLINT GARRETT WROTE ; it's like their are some whom react as if the u.s. constitution were handed down from mount siani when they reflect upon it. thus even with or without documentation sometimes you have to take things with a grain of salt. >> We cha ah yeh - E ne che key pee sh'nee yell o Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mitch Post Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 20 Dec 2001 14:31:55 -0800 (PST) --- larry pendleton wrote: I wonder if that > is what Mr. Garrett is > talking about ? > Pendleton > " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never > know . " I wonder what Mr.Garrett is talking about....To "borrow" a line from "Last of the Mohicans"(the movie)--"He is different from us and makes no sense....." Still not respectful....Mitch Post ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 20 Dec 2001 16:40:24 -0800 Still not respectful....Mitch Post >>Same here Mitch. I'm about DONE ! Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: U.S. Constitution Date: 20 Dec 2001 23:40:49 +0000 Alright boys, that did it. I can't stand anymore liberal B.S. From now on I'm utilizing the DELETE button. SEMPER FI, Don Secondine in the Ohio Country _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: documentation Date: 20 Dec 2001 18:21:46 -0600 The more I read, the more surprised I become. Buck, yes Jefferson was a very eclectic guy. Geo. Washington was also an innovative farmer. He also is responsible for America having a beef cattle 'industry'. He saw that small farms growing and selling only a couple beef cattle a year could not provide the needs of a growing nation and army. I'll get the book for my wife, she is the gardener in the family. Parched "white flint" and modern "yellow" corn. Now yer testing the limits of my commitment to being 'authentic'. If I stay on this list I'm going to git so educated I won't be able to stand myself. :-) Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: L.S Vol 5/oil cloth- Nv. muzzleloader article Date: 20 Dec 2001 19:30:57 EST Brother, Only Grizz can answer that in his own elogent way. Two BEAR ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mtndan2000@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: U.S. Constitution Date: 20 Dec 2001 17:36:44 -0700 ROFL..you tell em! ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: documentation Date: 20 Dec 2001 18:32:36 -0700 Frank, Isn't it amazing how smart and the vision our forefathers had, I purchased the complete set of the "Audi Classics Series" from Knowledge Products covering Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Payne and so on, a 36-38 sets of books on tape covering thoughts, policies, business and the founding of this country a few years ago and still haven't got tired listen to them. How in the world could these men 200 years ago have the foresight to put down this information that still governs today - when compared, them to what we have today - need I say anymore. Like said before - continue learning and researching, an as more information becomes available or uncovered with the new criminal sciences it just keeps getting better and sometimes changing what history has recorded in the past. Frank we all have just rubbed the surface in the process of discovery, Charley Hanson told a group of us "anyone that thinks they know it all, usually knows very little when cornered", that pretty much says it all. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 5:21 PM > and you'll be surprised .> The more I read, the more surprised I become. > Buck, yes Jefferson was a very eclectic guy. Geo. Washington was also an > innovative farmer. He also is responsible for America having a beef cattle > 'industry'. He saw that small farms growing and selling only a couple beef > cattle a year could not provide the needs of a growing nation and army. > I'll get the book for my wife, she is the gardener in the family. > Parched "white flint" and modern "yellow" corn. Now yer testing the > limits of my commitment to being 'authentic'. > If I stay on this list I'm going to git so educated I won't be able to > stand myself. :-) > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 20 Dec 2001 18:38:30 -0700 He' Dennis, That nylon wouldn't last long with the heat from the forge or the campfire, how's the weather ? Buck. > Cause chances are you are influencing someone that DOES want to make the effort to do it as > correct as possible. And as I recall, you said it was pure laziness for > using nylon... Sad damned excuse, if you ask me... So if you will, stay the > hell away from my camp, you probably wouldn't find it to your likeing. > > Sincerely > > D > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Knives and Iron Accouterments > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning." > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: documentation Date: 20 Dec 2001 20:36:33 EST In a message dated 12/20/01 10:07:36 AM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes: << Most parched corn being sold today (not all but much of it) is of yellow corn varity, when the correct corn would have been the old "flint" white varity that is documentated as you have mentioned, >> Buck, Are you still selling flint parched corn? I could use a pound or two. Seems to me you had "blue" indian corn when you had the store. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: documentation Date: 20 Dec 2001 18:56:02 -0700 Magpie, Contact Pablo Jones at Clark & Sons Mercantile, he took everything - even the cash box, damn need to watch these guys a little closer. http://www.clarkandsons.com/ he should have both parched corns. Oh Magpie try the blue corn meal, add a little of the brown sugar and some hot coffee for a fast morning meal - Morgan used this and wrote in one of his journals about it all the way up at his store in the MO/ILL country according to what M.Baker told me a few years ago, so it got that far east. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 6:36 PM > > Buck, > Are you still selling flint parched corn? I could use a pound or two. Seems > to me you had "blue" indian corn when you had the store. > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: -COMPROMISES/belt buckles Date: 20 Dec 2001 21:09:02 EST In a message dated 12/20/01 5:37:01 PM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes: << So if you will, stay the > hell away from my camp, you probably wouldn't find it to your likeing. > > Sincerely > >> Dam if you don't got a way wid words....Dennis!!!! You ever whip up any iron belt buckles? I need one for about a 2" wide belt....and not so heavy it would drag my fat arse to the bottom of a beaver creek . Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas /Bedding Date: 20 Dec 2001 21:29:16 EST --part1_11c.98a5136.2953f87c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is another example of bedding and shelter that uses raw hides and was an obvious choice and probably used often than was written. It is from "Wah-to-yah and the Taos Trail" by Lewis H. Garrard his travels 1846 & 47. A little after what we refer to as the Rocky MT Fur Trade Page 144 "First, an eligible site for wood, water, shelter from the winds, and a full view of the herds is chosen; then the adjacent aspen or pinyon grove furnish two forked poles, which are generally driven upright into the ground. as far apart as occasion requires, with four feet or about, visible. A pole is then laid from one fork to the other, and other small ones, seven or eight feet in length, laid, the smaller ends on the cross pole, the butts resting on the ground. On top of these are spread raw hides of beef and the skins of game, and under the frame the soft ends of the pinyon and cedar branches are spread to the depth of a foot or more. On top of that, deerskins are laid, and then the bedding surmounts that, which, altogether, makes a springy mattress, equal to the best "hair" or "moss." In the front is the blazing pine fir, and at one side a small stick driven in the ground, an inch or two of the branches remaining, on which the tin cups are hung when not in use. A short distance beyond is a pen of logs and brush, in which the caballada (horse herd) is driven when an animal is wanted." This a description of a Mexican herds man but is probably what a winter camp would be like. Garrards writing was finished by 1850 so his wording shows his knowledge of mattresses made of hair or moss. Anyone the tans hides knows the amount of hair that comes off a hide could be easily used for bedding. All animals and birds make beds using fur, hair, grass, leaves feathers and better yet down, there were many types of waterfowl. Why would a mountain man not make a bed when time and materials allowed Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_11c.98a5136.2953f87c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is another example of bedding and shelter that uses raw hides and was an obvious choice and probably used often than was written. It is from "Wah-to-yah and the Taos Trail" by Lewis H. Garrard his travels 1846 & 47. A little after what we refer to as the Rocky MT Fur Trade
Page 144
"First, an eligible site for wood, water, shelter from the winds, and a full view of the herds is chosen; then the adjacent aspen or pinyon grove furnish two forked poles, which are generally driven upright into the ground. as far apart as occasion requires, with four feet or about, visible. A pole is then laid from one fork to the other, and other small ones, seven or eight feet in length, laid, the smaller ends on the cross pole, the butts resting on the ground. On top of these are spread raw hides of beef and the skins of game, and under the frame the soft ends of the pinyon and cedar branches are spread to the depth of a foot or more. On top of that, deerskins are laid, and then the bedding surmounts that, which, altogether, makes a springy mattress, equal to the best "hair" or "moss." In the front is the blazing pine fir, and at one side a small stick driven in the ground, an inch or two of the branches remaining, on which the tin cups are hung when not in use. A short distance beyond is a pen of logs and brush, in which the caballada (horse herd) is driven when an animal is wanted."
This a description of a Mexican herds man but is probably what a winter camp would be like. Garrards writing was finished by 1850 so his wording shows his knowledge of mattresses made of hair or moss.

Anyone the tans hides knows the amount of hair that comes off a hide could be easily used for bedding. All animals and birds make beds using fur, hair, grass, leaves feathers and better yet down, there were many types of waterfowl. Why would a mountain man not make a bed when time and materials allowed
Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_11c.98a5136.2953f87c_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brass Parts-$.02 Worth Date: 20 Dec 2001 21:04:38 -0600 Buck wrote: Didn't realize you boys had that much sunlight to worry about bright brass in Texas, seems like its always raining, flooding or burning up from the lack of rain - smile Larry, I know Lanney will have a few kind remarks !!!! My guns don't have any brass.....just iron. Lanney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Founding Fathers Date: 21 Dec 2001 03:33:52 +0000 Friends of the list, Speaking of our founding fathers and what and why they wrote the way they did, reminded me of this sight for those interested. Well worth the time to read for every American: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/fed/fedpapers.html The Fedalist Papers on-line. Small wonder to me that period is referred to as the "Age of Enlightenment". Enjoy, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 20 Dec 2001 23:01:30 -0500 Buck. Would melt I spect and make a helluva mess.. Been real warm-like as of late, but we are about to pay for it, I am a thinking.. How be things your way? D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 8:38 PM > He' Dennis, > > That nylon wouldn't last long with the heat from the forge or the campfire, > how's the weather ? > > Buck. > > > Cause chances are you are influencing someone that DOES want to make the > effort to do it as > > correct as possible. And as I recall, you said it was pure laziness for > > using nylon... Sad damned excuse, if you ask me... So if you will, stay > the > > hell away from my camp, you probably wouldn't find it to your likeing. > > > > Sincerely > > > > D > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Knives and Iron Accouterments > > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > > > "Knowing how is just the beginning." > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: -COMPROMISES/belt buckles Date: 20 Dec 2001 23:04:48 -0500 Magpie... Thankee, I do try to make my intentions and meaning clear enough so the below average moron can understand. No offense Brother, you are way above average.. Yep, I do turn a buckle once in awhile for folks I tolerate, contact me off-list, you got the address... D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 9:09 PM > > In a message dated 12/20/01 5:37:01 PM, conner_one@email.msn.com writes: > > << So if you will, stay > > the > > > hell away from my camp, you probably wouldn't find it to your likeing. > > > > > > Sincerely > > > >> > > Dam if you don't got a way wid words....Dennis!!!! You ever whip up > any iron belt buckles? I need one for about a 2" wide belt....and not so > heavy it would drag my fat arse to the bottom of a beaver creek . > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: MtMan-List: Texas-$.02 Worth Date: 21 Dec 2001 07:30:22 -0700 In the last few years there's as many Texas lic. plates as CA vehicles, I'm thinking we need to close the damn gate, but you and Lanney are always welcome. Buck. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 5:16 PM > Didn't realize you boys had that much sunlight to worry about bright brass > in Texas, seems like its always raining, flooding or burning up from the > lack of rain - smile Larry, I know Lanney will have a few kind remarks !!!! > > Take care, > Buck Conner > > > Ya know Buck, a good part of Colorado was once part of Texas. It could be > again ! > Pendleton > " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Mark's quote Date: 21 Dec 2001 09:31:59 -0700 Mark " Roadkill" Loader wrote: "The Chronicles of George C. Yount" while with William Wolfskill in 1830 in the Wasatch Range wrote: The blankets used by these travellers of the wilderness are of a peculiar kind, very thick and almost impervious to water- A small stream of water running directly through a corner of their camp, they found not difficult to keep open for the use of themselves and their animals. and a blazing fire was kept burning night & day in the center- With their Beaver-skins they were enabled to cover themselves and provide a comfortable bed. Thus they lay , shut out from all the world, while the storm was hawling around them, and the snow falling in astonishing profusion-- Thank you Mark that is a good find. Can you tell those of us who are not familiar with Yount any more about him. Specifically, I like to know how well his writing is accepted. For instance I have quoted Ruxton a lot lately, but you should realize that he came West in 1846-47 and traveled out of Mexico, never making it very far north. So his stuff is not an excellent reflection of the rendezvous period. Thanks again. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) Date: 21 Dec 2001 11:55:47 -0800 (PST) what i'm hoping i hear from this is that you are carrying the torch and zeal of a true AMM brother by insisting on 'as period as possible' in our reinactment and portrayal of history. that documentation be the foundation of our proof of how it was done thus it should be done again that way. but because i hear childlike hostility from this response i must ask if i have insulted you because you make some compromises that you would not want others to know about. i cite from your document: "Cause chances are you are influencing someone that DOES want to make the effort to do it as > correct as possible. And as I recall, you said it was pure laziness for > using nylon... Sad damned excuse, if you ask me... So if you will, stay the > hell away from my camp, you probably wouldn't find it to your likeing." AS FAR as compromises in our articles/goods we all make them. even those whom lie to themselves and to others about their apparent(?) PERIODNESS. to give an example: i purchased a great 'ashley contract saddle' made by ann AMM member whom i beleive we all respect, i said all of us. as bark tan was used in the fur trade period for the most part for saddle leather it is not a true re-creation totally of a fur trade artifact. the maker whom i honor and adore his work made it years ago out of other leather from our time we live in. he may make them presently out of 'bark tan', but i personally have no problem as the bark tan is very expensive from what i have seen. and as he personably told me at POLEBRIDGE this summer 'his cost in leather has risen 15% due to the 'mad cow' problem in securing hides". point being, if you are a trapper or one whom will not or can not afford nor wish to INSIST on true 'BARK TAN' on yore saddle, and all other leather goods but brain tanned items then you are less than period with your modern derived leathers(excluding brain tanned or fish oil from scandinavian stock)then you are not trully period, PERIOD. it all depends upon how fanatical which a few of my buckskin close bros are, or zealously that you want to walk. now there are those whom have large bankrolls whom can afford a 'fur trade' saddle made with exclusive materials as within the era. but those types will probly never catch a beaver in a primative fashion and still be in the greenhorn category regardless of what organization they belong to. I HOPE I"M WRONG IN MY INTERPRETATION OF YORE SEMI_VAGUE POST. in any event i admire you for furthering the cause of historical accuracy and plunder or artifact correctness. CLINT GARRETT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) Date: 21 Dec 2001 15:10:15 -0500 Clint Want to see some real, live, adult-like hostility?? Come to Ohio. My gear is open for ANYONE to look at ANY time.. You will not find nylon or "compromises" in it. But I am always open to DOCUMENTABLE changes. You seem to have a problem with the AMM for some reason, is it that they won't let you and your "compromises" slide? I know my Brigade wouldn't. If you will now excuse me, I have a shop to work on and little more time to discuss reality and authenticity with a friggin chrome tan wearin', nylon sewin' "Iffen they'd a had it, they'd a used it" dayglow buckskinner. (how's that for "childlike hostility"?? dinnit even cuss!) And I believe this closes my end of the conversation, as I agree with Larry totally. "We cha ah yeh - E ne che key pee sh'nee yell o" Sincerely Dennis Miles AMM 1622 Hiverano Ohio "Through me you pass into the city of woe: Through me you pass into eternal pain: Through me among the people lost for aye. Justice the founder of my fabric moved: To rear me was the task of power divine, Supremest wisdom, and primeval love. Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I shall endure. All hope abandon, ye who enter here." -Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy, ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt Date: 21 Dec 2001 12:56:38 -0800 (PST) Now if your interested in being as pc as possible > then you set yourself a > high bar and must refuse that which you can not > provide the evidence > > >>Well said Capt. That is a very high bar indeed. > Of course Naked with a > Rock is definitely period correct. I wonder if that > is what Mr. Garrett is > talking about ? > Pendleton Brother Larry, I"M VERY GLAD YOU ARE putting to the teat my metal. i also thank you for asking me to explain myself as to what i'm talking about. if you read the post i made today about COMPROMISES, saddles, etc., i think you will/can not help but agree. we all compromise the standards and paraphanelia of the fur trade. if you visit many AMM encampments you will see men living in tipis without indian wives. how many mountain men had tipis? unless they were married to a wife from the tribes, whom left him. according to walker "Lakota Society" written about during the second decade of the tweenteith century, the lodge was a woman's(win'yan) . on the plains you will find that among the tribes the only males living in lodges without wives or female relatives whom owned them were generally 'GAY" or wink'te as the Lakota say. of course the hey'yo'kas lived with wink'tes whom owned the lodge. so whether i like a lodge or not, i compromise if i show up at an AMM doing by having a tipi without a authentic native wife. funny even though i do not think any of my AMM brothers are wink'te, but i have seen lone males whom have lodges at AMM doins. of course i could compromise as carson travelled with fremont with a lodge. but wasn't that after 1840? of course do not get me wrong, i am not a 'know it all' anymore the those i'm disscussing thease elements of history are. there may be documentation that supports lone trappers or brigades with tipis. maybe ogden's brigades? LEWIS and clark even encountered a canvas tipi among the tribes, wonder where they got that tipi? if there is no documentation as to where the tribe got it, it must have handed down from heaven by the spirits?!!?$#@%?????????$#?!!!@????????? thats got to be it. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members Date: 21 Dec 2001 07:43:01 -0700 We are starting to get a few light snow showers now, with more later today into Sat, the skiers love it. I'm done with the old "honey-do list", got the stuff done in Grand Junction and now helping Concho figure out how to make his "trade blanket" on his site. He's here and said to tell everyone Happy Holidays, he looks pretty good - lost 20 some pounds and has stopped smokin', says he is thinking about a new job with Historical Society for the state of Missouri first of the year. Oh, I talked to several of the folks from Minn Historical Society that I met last summer, their gov. Jessie has not renewed the historical site contracts yet, so they are looking for this type of "living history" work in other states, I gave them the few names I had for contacts, anyone know anything for "living history" employment, let me know and I'll pass the word on. Buck. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 9:01 PM > Buck. > Would melt I spect and make a helluva mess.. > Been real warm-like as of late, but we are about to pay for it, I am a > thinking.. How be things your way? > D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 21 Dec 2001 13:18:33 -0800 (PST) your humility reflects your superiority, a trait that if you did not have you would not be. but capt, i must say, i ain't one to suck up; jest tell it as i see it. and for those poor souls of the supersensitive bent whom may get offended cause the skirts had or have too much influence on em i'll jest have to bear it. funny i recall all those pre 1840 white and black males out there as largely patriarchal, and the plains and mountain warriors. yep that might be part of the sensitivity issue here. all else aside capt., being how your from a wetter climate than my Montana, i surely wish you would get Dean's permission to put your oilcloth recipie in this pages archives if it has not been done. or contact somebody with 'muzzleloader' mag or some simular and publish a tested proven oilcloth formulae as yours. do you know anyone up in yore country or elsewhere whom has an oilcloth that has survived at least 10 years of moderate use? also, could you post your oil cloth formulae very very thorough and detailed one more time? i can see why your a brigade leader, clint garrett __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES Date: 21 Dec 2001 13:30:55 -0800 (PST) mitch or anyone confused or in doubt, since i do not use perfect or semi-perfect english skills in my posts i can see why there may be a communication barrier. after reading ogden's journals and others whom were educated for their day and seeing their use of english i do not think we would have too much trouble following those whom had even less such as boone. but i really think it could/may be that many have the AMM isscussion page coming in to them via there all inclusive e-mails. i mean i personally have only the discussin group on this e-mail of mine. that way i don't miss anything if i keep up every few days, by reading the topic concerned and the past few days prior. hope that may help. if not write me privately, you have my address, if it's something you don't want posted. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: Bedding-beaver skins- - never!!!!!!!! ??????? Date: 21 Dec 2001 13:46:12 -0800 (PST) > > There ya go. Someone did use his beaver pelts to > make it through a cold night. Now the only question > is how prevelant it was and was that an emergency > expedient or something done quite frequently. > > > "The Chronicles of George C. Yount" while with > William Wolfskill in 1830 in the Wasatch Range > wrote: > > The blankets used by these travellers of the > wilderness are of a peculiar kind, very thick and > almost impervious to water- A small stream of water > running directly through a corner of their camp, > they found not difficult to keep open for the use of > themselves and their animals. and a blazing fire was > kept burning night & day in the center- With their > Beaver-skins they were enabled to cover themselves > and provide a comfortable bed. Thus they lay , shut > out from all the world, while the storm was hawling > around them, and the snow falling in astonishing > profusion-- > > Mark " Roadkill" Loader > THANKS Capt. and Mark, not that you did it for me but for all of us. i mean that iz what this document zeal is all about; sharing the knowledge that settles only hypothetical conjecture. i never read of this until now, but sometimes you can speculate upon what they may have done only to have it proven latter on, this documentation plunder is as worthy as doin tha craftwork, thanks. clint __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Christmas Greetings Date: 21 Dec 2001 14:17:51 -0800 It is a stormy afternoon, what passes for winter here in Southern California, and there is probably a good deal of snow falling in the local mountains. My friend Burnt Spoon and his wife Greyflower are probably stoking their wood stove and lighting kerosene lamps in their cottage on the slopes of Mt Palomar; they may have received snow at their elevation overnight. Other friends are warming their homes "on the grid" up and down the coast. It has been an eventful year, both personally and nationally, with more stress than I would have desired at this stage in my life. May we all enjoy a safe and warm Christmas season surrounded by our loved ones, and may the coming year bring us health, prosperity, and improved protection against those who wish us harm. My father always liked to make sure we understood the exact wording of the biblical proclamation: "Peace on earth, TO MEN OF GOOD WILL". Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Pat Quilter. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas Date: 21 Dec 2001 15:57:15 -0700 To get back on to the list subject/topic. I was researching a primer for the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard in Great Falls, MT and ran across this reference for oiled linen. This is from Ambrose in Undaunted Courage, page 88. Now I know that this is not necessarily a document that is totally accurate. However, Ambrose got the info somewhere, and my Volume 1 of the Letters of the Lewis & Clark Expedition is missing. Perhaps someone could verify these purchases in it. "Lewis was in Philadelphia through much of May and the first week in June (1803)....He bought oilskin bags to protect the instruments and journals. He got mosquito netting and field tables, and large, multipurpose sheets of oiled linen each eight by twelve feet, for tents, and candles, so that he could write at night. The sheets of oiled linen could double up as sails by day." Sounds like he got the mosquito netting, tables, candles and oiled linen (tarps?) to set up for evening writing. YMOS Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Our Ancestors' Knowledge (Documentation) Date: 21 Dec 2001 15:58:25 -0800 Barry Conner said <> As I was reading Undaunted Courage last year, I was struck by that age's dedication to truth and facts. They actually believed that if a good observer wrote stuff down in a journal, and brought the information back to other educated people, that by using logic and systematic analysis, this information could be developed into knowledge that added to the storehouse of science. One of the most depressing developments of the last 25 years is the assumption that documentation and conclusions must be tainted by the politics of the witness, so that we automatically distrust all scientific or governmental pronouncements, at least until we know what their "agenda" is. Whereas our ancestors were using the most basic tools to extract nuggets of knowledge from a sea of ignorance, we are now living in an age of confusion while surrounded by an incredible richness of facts and observations. I believe that a desire to get back to basic on-the-ground truth underlies a lot of the spirit of living history. Pat Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members Date: 21 Dec 2001 17:48:05 -0700 Buck, There may be some starting at "This is the Place State Park" in Salt Lake, I will find out later. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "BARRY CONNER" >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Dennis Miles and members >Date: Fri, Dec 21, 2001, 7:43 AM > >We are starting to get a few light snow showers now, with more later today >into Sat, the skiers love it. >I'm done with the old "honey-do list", got the stuff done in Grand Junction >and now helping Concho figure out how to make his "trade blanket" on his >site. He's here and said to tell everyone Happy Holidays, he looks pretty >good - lost 20 some pounds and has stopped smokin', says he is thinking >about a new job with Historical Society for the state of Missouri first of >the year. > >Oh, I talked to several of the folks from Minn Historical Society that I met >last summer, their gov. Jessie has not renewed the historical site contracts >yet, so they are looking for this type of "living history" work in other >states, I gave them the few names I had for contacts, anyone know anything >for "living history" employment, let me know and I'll pass the word on. > >Buck. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Double Edge Forge" >To: >Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 9:01 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas-COMPROMISES > > >> Buck. >> Would melt I spect and make a helluva mess.. >> Been real warm-like as of late, but we are about to pay for it, I am a >> thinking.. How be things your way? >> D > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt Date: 21 Dec 2001 17:59:05 -0700 Clint, AMM Brothers? I have checked the Database and I can not seem to locate youre name. What is youre status? youre number?. YMOS Ole # 718 Hivarno ---------- >From: Clint Garrett >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt >Date: Fri, Dec 21, 2001, 1:56 PM > >Now if your interested in being as pc as possible >> then you set yourself a >> high bar and must refuse that which you can not >> provide the evidence >> >> >>Well said Capt. That is a very high bar indeed. >> Of course Naked with a >> Rock is definitely period correct. I wonder if that >> is what Mr. Garrett is >> talking about ? >> Pendleton > >Brother Larry, > >I"M VERY GLAD YOU ARE putting to the teat my metal. i >also thank you for asking me to explain myself as to >what i'm talking about. if you read the post i made >today about COMPROMISES, saddles, etc., i think you >will/can not help but agree. we all compromise the >standards and paraphanelia of the fur trade. > if you visit many AMM encampments you will see >men living in tipis without indian wives. how many >mountain men had tipis? unless they were married to a >wife from the tribes, whom left him. according to >walker "Lakota Society" written about during the >second decade of the tweenteith century, the lodge was >a woman's(win'yan) . on the plains you will find that >among the tribes the only males living in lodges >without wives or female relatives whom owned them were >generally 'GAY" or wink'te as the Lakota say. of >course the hey'yo'kas lived with wink'tes whom owned >the lodge. > so whether i like a lodge or not, i compromise if i >show up at an AMM doing by having a tipi without a >authentic native wife. funny even though i do not >think any of my AMM brothers are wink'te, but i have >seen lone males whom have lodges at AMM doins. of >course i could compromise as carson travelled with >fremont with a lodge. but wasn't that after 1840? > > of course do not get me wrong, i am not a 'know >it all' anymore the those i'm disscussing thease >elements of history are. there may be documentation >that supports lone trappers or brigades with tipis. >maybe ogden's brigades? > > >LEWIS and clark even encountered a canvas tipi among >the tribes, wonder where they got that tipi? if there >is no documentation as to where the tribe got it, it >must have handed down from heaven by the >spirits?!!?$#@%?????????$#?!!!@????????? thats got to >be it. > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt Date: 21 Dec 2001 18:41:21 -0700 Clint, Actually you find alot of winter camps or "winter quarters" to have the tipi used in them. Some were used because they wintered with a tribe (wheather they married into them or not), a few because the trappers themselves were of mixed races. But we can find sources that show white men living through the winter monthes in lodges. In Parkman's book, Reynal, his half french/ half indian friend and guide hauled a lodge around with him, with his wife. Warren Ferris (twice) and Osbourne Russell both tell of staying in these snug lodges, with up to six men a piece in them. I will give one of the best descriptions of this wintere living: “The winter season having become so far advanced, we pitched quarters in a large grove of aspen trees, at the brink of an excellent spring that supplied us with the purest water, and resolved to pass the winter here. Our hunters made daily excursions to the mountains, by which we were half surrounded, and always returned with the flesh of several black tailed deer; an animal almost as numerous as the pines and cedars among which they are found....we passed the time by visiting, feasting, and chatting with each other, or by hunting occasionally, for exercise and amusement. Our camp presented eight leather lodges, and two constructed of poles covered with cane grass, which grows in the dense patches to the height of eight or ten feet along the river. They were all completely sheltered from the wind by the surrounding trees. Within, the bottoms were covered with reeds, upon which our blankets and robes were spread, leaving a small place in the center for the fire. Our baggage was placed around at the bottom of the lodge, on the inside, to exclude the cold from beneath it, and each one of the inmates had his own particular place in assigned to him. One who had never lived in a lodge, would scarcely think it possible for seven or eight persons to pass a long winter agreeably, in a circular room, ten feet in diameter, having a considerable portion of it occupied by the fire in the center; but could they see us seated around the fire, cross legged like Turks, upon our beds, each one employed in cleaning our guns, repairing moccasins, smoking, and lolling at ease on our elbows, with out interfering with each other, they would exclaim, Indeed they are comfortable as they could wish to be! Which is the case in reality.” WarrenFerris, "Life in the rocky Mountains", pp 354-5. I myself, have brought my lodge to a AMM camp probably 2 out of the last 3 years for the winter camp. And will use it again for a buffalo hunt in the next few months. Very practical and authenic for winter camps. mike.. Clint Garrett wrote: > Now if your interested in being as pc as possible > > then you set yourself a > > high bar and must refuse that which you can not > > provide the evidence > > > > >>Well said Capt. That is a very high bar indeed. > > Of course Naked with a > > Rock is definitely period correct. I wonder if that > > is what Mr. Garrett is > > talking about ? > > Pendleton > > Brother Larry, > > I"M VERY GLAD YOU ARE putting to the teat my metal. i > also thank you for asking me to explain myself as to > what i'm talking about. if you read the post i made > today about COMPROMISES, saddles, etc., i think you > will/can not help but agree. we all compromise the > standards and paraphanelia of the fur trade. > if you visit many AMM encampments you will see > men living in tipis without indian wives. how many > mountain men had tipis? unless they were married to a > wife from the tribes, whom left him. according to > walker "Lakota Society" written about during the > second decade of the tweenteith century, the lodge was > a woman's(win'yan) . on the plains you will find that > among the tribes the only males living in lodges > without wives or female relatives whom owned them were > generally 'GAY" or wink'te as the Lakota say. of > course the hey'yo'kas lived with wink'tes whom owned > the lodge. > so whether i like a lodge or not, i compromise if i > show up at an AMM doing by having a tipi without a > authentic native wife. funny even though i do not > think any of my AMM brothers are wink'te, but i have > seen lone males whom have lodges at AMM doins. of > course i could compromise as carson travelled with > fremont with a lodge. but wasn't that after 1840? > > of course do not get me wrong, i am not a 'know > it all' anymore the those i'm disscussing thease > elements of history are. there may be documentation > that supports lone trappers or brigades with tipis. > maybe ogden's brigades? > > LEWIS and clark even encountered a canvas tipi among > the tribes, wonder where they got that tipi? if there > is no documentation as to where the tribe got it, it > must have handed down from heaven by the > spirits?!!?$#@%?????????$#?!!!@????????? thats got to > be it. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:29:40 -0600 Date: 21 Dec 2001 19:29:11 -0700 Mr Garrett wrote: > if you visit many AMM encampments you will see >men living in tipis without indian wives. Mr Garrett I have been to many AMM camp (in eight states) and I have seen exactly two tipis.........but I have never seen you. You are inching closer and closer to being deleted automatically by lots of men who might otherwise help you learn. Nothing will earn you that dubious honor more quickly than claiming an affiliation with AMM that doesn't exist. I will begin deleting your posts unread immediately unless you can satisfactorily answer Ole Jensen's question. Lanney Ratcliff, Bossloper #1585 Tejas Party, Texas/Oklahoma Brigade ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Our Ancestors' Knowledge (Documentation) Date: 21 Dec 2001 22:11:25 EST In a message dated 12/21/2001 3:58:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, pat_quilter@qscaudio.com writes: << I believe that a desire to get back to basic on-the-ground truth underlies a lot of the spirit of living history. >> You are waxing most eloquent Pat and I wholeheartedly agree. Our family wishes you and all members of this incredible List as well as those they care about, a wonderful Holiday season and the best of new years to come... Ralph Rosen aka Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt Date: 21 Dec 2001 22:15:24 EST In a message dated 12/21/2001 5:02:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: << I have checked the Database and I can not seem to locate youre name >> Ole, I'm not a member of the AMM, but could have told you that you were wasting your time on that one..... Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt Date: 21 Dec 2001 20:18:59 -0700 Clint, Osborne Russell bought a lodge at Fort Hall with 5 other guys to spend the winter. I'll get exact quotes etc. if you're interested. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) Date: 21 Dec 2001 21:34:17 -0500 CLINT GARRET SORRY PARD---GET A LIFE---MORE BABBLEING---GET ON THE GROUND---RUN WITH THE BIG DOG OR GET OFF THE POARCH---ENOUGH BS AND WASTED BAND SPACE--- NUFF SAID-------- AND YES I AM SHOUTING---AND I AGREE WITH LANNY--- "We cha ah yeh - E ne che key pee sh'nee yell o"---LANNY TAKE ANOTHER BITE AT THE PILGREM--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) & "The Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt Date: 22 Dec 2001 07:35:42 -0700 Barney, You are not bosteful and have mannors and that will get you a seat at my camp anytime. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: LivingInThePast@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES- the truth is gonna hurt >Date: Fri, Dec 21, 2001, 8:15 PM > >In a message dated 12/21/2001 5:02:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, >olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: << I have checked the Database and I can not >seem to locate youre name >> > >Ole, I'm not a member of the AMM, but could have told you that you were >wasting your time on that one..... Barney > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) Date: 22 Dec 2001 10:19:42 EST The people on this list argue back and forth about what was. Who traps in the was of old,. and much more. Hopefully all this helps most of use become better reinactors, but I wonder, all this to help preserve what was. How many of use are members of the National Trappers Assn. Trapping is in danger of being outlawed. How many of us are helping keep it alive for the next generation and not just playing with what was, without really doing all we can to keep our heritage alive. TrapRJoe aka Ridge Pole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedding-beaver skins- - never!!!!!!!! ??????? Date: 22 Dec 2001 10:31:59 EST I have nothing to say they did or didn't, but it makes since. You can only carry so much and you are surely keep what you came to the mountains for, and nothing is as warm as fur. TrapRJoe AKA Ridge Pole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) Date: 22 Dec 2001 10:56:06 -0500 Ridge Pole, I am agreement with you 100%. Although no longer a member of the NTA, I am a member of the Ohioans for Wildlife Conservation and a Charter member of Darke Countians for Wildlife Conservation. We formed in 77 when the anti's took a grand stab here at outlawing trapping here in Ohio. Threw ALL their national efforts at us.. We whipped 'me.. And whipped the anti's again a couple years ago when they went after out Dove season.. We will, with support, whip 'me again, cause they WILL be back. And they assault all states and try to destroy sound game management with "new age" thinking. Hell, we can even use snares in Ohio once again. Everyone needs to keep a vigilant eye on our rights. If we get complacent, we will lose. D "We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free. " Ronald Reagan ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) Date: 22 Dec 2001 11:59:26 -0500 Recieved this by private email, thought the rest of you would like to see it. It is a response to my answer to Ridge Pole. I also enclosed is my answer to B'st'rd. D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 11:42 AM zealots) > Your classing conservationists as pro- and anti- bothers me because you > seem to imply that all of the anti-s are bad and all of their ideas are > bad, and conversely, that those who agree with you must be right. > Remember how the buffalo were almost wiped out, and a beaver desert > created? Sound game management practices are not the sole domain of > pro-s nor anti-s and while I applaud your fervor, it's not rights that > need to be defended here, but what is right. Was it right that the > buffalo was almost hunted to extinction? And yet it was government > policy, and thus the right of the hunters. What about the rights of the > natives in that case? Are all rights devolved only to you? What about > when your rights confiict with my rights? > > Note that I am not saying that what you are doing or supporting is > wrong, only that keeping a vigilant, blind eye on our rights is only > worth doing if we keep the other eye focused upon what is right. > > B'st'rd > -- > Cyclists need safe accommodation on public roads. > Nothing more is expected. Nothing less is acceptable. > > JW Stephens, Primary Color Systems, Irvine, CA 949.862.1751 > B'st'rd. WHOAA Bubba! I didn't paint Conservationists as pro & anti. What we fight is groups like PETA, Humane Society of the US and other groups that use liberal, cuddly & fuzzy logic in their attacks, bring in millions of dollars and give NOTHING to wildlife, no habitat, no proper managemnet, nothing. THOSE are NOT conservationists.. Period. I have NOTHING against any CONSERVATIONIST or CONSERVATION GROUP that uses sound wildlife management & prfessionals in the course of what they do. I think you are somewhat befuddled in what I said. Let me ignore some of the other stuff here and ask a question with a question.. "What about the rights of the natives in that case? " When it comes to buffalo, are these the same natives who would run entire herds off of blind bluffs (aka buffalo drops)? That is sound practice alright and I bet a helluva spectical!. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth-treated canvas Date: 22 Dec 2001 11:10:54 -0700 Donald Jackson's book "Letters of the Lewis and Clark Expedition and related documents" , contains reproductions of just about all of the orders and invoices pertaining to supplying and equipping the expedition. On page 90 is an invoice from Mr. Richd. Wevill, dated June 15, 1803 in which he bills the government for the following; 107 yds of brown Linen @ 1/6 46 1/2 yds of (Russia) Flanders sheeting @ 2/5 10 yds of 7/8 Country Linen 3/ making the brown Linen into 8 Tents, with Eyelet-holes, laps etc. Thread etc. making the Russia Sheeting into 45 Bags. Thread & cord. @1/6 2 Gross of Hooks & Eyes @ 3/9 Oiling all of the Linen & Sheeting 150 square yards @ 2/6 numbering all the Bags a& Tents A summary of this bill is latter listed as "Oil-cloth tents & Baggs Wevill--Qr. Mr......119.39" I have also seen references to pieces of "Russia sheeting" in list of goods supplied to rendezvous and trappers-including the men of General Ashley. I would have to do some digging to see if any of it was referred to as "oiled". Have seen numerous references to "linen tents" in the American Fur Company ledgers. Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 3:57 PM > To get back on to the list subject/topic. I was researching a primer for the > Lewis & Clark Honor Guard in Great Falls, MT and ran across this reference > for oiled linen. This is from Ambrose in Undaunted Courage, page 88. Now I > know that this is not necessarily a document that is totally accurate. > However, Ambrose got the info somewhere, and my Volume 1 of the Letters of > the Lewis & Clark Expedition is missing. Perhaps someone could verify these > purchases in it. > > "Lewis was in Philadelphia through much of May and the first week in June > (1803)....He bought oilskin bags to protect the instruments and journals. He > got mosquito netting and field tables, and large, multipurpose sheets of > oiled linen each eight by twelve feet, for tents, and candles, so that he > could write at night. The sheets of oiled linen could double up as sails by > day." > > Sounds like he got the mosquito netting, tables, candles and oiled linen > (tarps?) to set up for evening writing. > > YMOS > Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BARRY CONNER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: COMPROMISES-saddles, artificial sinew(fanatics and zealots) Date: 22 Dec 2001 11:24:37 -0700 Joe, How many are members of the NRA, that's fighting to keep the Second Amendment alive, when the guns go you'll be able to use your traps to protect your house and maybe get a few of those that want to take all our rights. Take care, Buck Conner "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty" Thomas Jefferson 1771 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 8:19 AM zealots) > The people on this list argue back and forth about what was. Who traps in > the was of old,. and much more. Hopefully all this helps most of use become > better reinactors, but I wonder, all this to help preserve what was. How > many of use are members of the National Trappers Assn. Trapping is in danger > of being outlawed. How many of us are helping keep it alive for the next > generation and not just playing with what was, without really doing all we > can to keep our heritage alive. > > TrapRJoe aka Ridge Pole > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http