From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Designing and constructing replica clothing, Date: 30 Nov 1998 01:13:04 -0600 Andrea, I have been reading your postings with interest and have a few questions for you -- you said you'd been researching old ways of sewing. How about we pick your brain a little? Given; many folks made what they knew with the skills they had and they may have created some crude garments. Not everything or everyone would have had the same limited set of skills. Clothes were manufactured (by hand) and traded. Some were more skilled than others. Some may have apprenticed as tailors. What were the methods and materials of bindings, interfacing and linings common to the early nineteenth century? What was the range (and method) of sizes in finished goods intended for trade? What types, colors and twists of thread were most common? What styles of seams and stitching were used for the various garments and areas of garments? Were French fell seams used or were they a development that came after the sewing machine? What were common seam allowances to protect from unraveling of fabrics? Did they vary by fabric? One might presume that there would be a greater variety of threads and materials in the settlements where the made goods were fabricated than were available on the frontier for self made goods. Have you encountered any information along these lines? John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: MtMan-List: Wooden barrels Date: 30 Nov 1998 05:54:43 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE1C25.ED3B3280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A brother of mine in the AMM makes Barrels His name is Boyd Phillips Phone number is 360-692-6643 give him a ring. Later Jon T ------=_NextPart_000_01BE1C25.ED3B3280 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A brother of mine in the AMM makes = Barrels His name is Boyd Phillips Phone number is 360-692-6643 give him = a ring.  Later Jon T

------=_NextPart_000_01BE1C25.ED3B3280-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: flint or cap? Date: 30 Nov 1998 08:59:00 +0100 There has been some recent discussion about who would use cap guns and why. One vital consideration that has to come into such a discussion is : When? If you're talking about Lewis & Clark or the Astorians or Lisa's expetidions or Ashley's enterprising young men, then there was only one option. Knowing when cap locks were "invented" really doesn't help a whole lot because the real issue is what was available to the person in the field. As far as American Fur Company records go, the first kpercussion caps do not appear on their inventories until the mid to late 1830s. Wyeth's diary records his gunsmith converting guns from flint to cap in the mid 30s. He also complains about his hunters using "miserable flint guns" which they continually blame for misfires (which they used as excuses for coming back to camp empty-handed). At the same time, the Indian people clearly used flint guns which were new manufacture even up into the 1870s. I've also found a lack of clear information among period journalists as to what kind of gun anyone was carrying, and what kind of ignition it had. Once in a long while someone will mention checking their priming, giving an indication of a flint gun. So, cap guns do not seem to have been much available in the field in the West until maybe the later 1830s, and there was always the problem of getting caps. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Brown Bess (was: howdy) Date: 30 Nov 1998 09:35:51 -0700 After the War of 1812, about 100 soldiers from the disbanded British de Meuron regiment were hired in 1816 by the Earl of Selkirk. They were hired to travel to the settlement he was co-sponsoring with the HBC on the Red River (at modern-day Winnipeg, Manitoba). They brought their Brown Bess muskets with them. Some of the men took jobs with the HBC and went to outlying fur posts. After a major flood on the Red River in 1826 (?), a flood which was about twice the size of the Red River Flood a couple of years ago, almost all the Selkirk Settlers, including the de Meurons, fled to the U.S. (Fort Snelling, if I recall correctly). There are also records of the HBC men using bayonets on their guns around 1821 as hostilities with the North West Company escalated, suggesting to me that the HBC may have been bringing in army surplus Brown Besses for defence. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Reinactments Date: 30 Nov 1998 15:29:04 EST This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_912457745_boundary Content-ID: <0_912457745@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To all of you living in Washington state, here is a fellow looking for some local clubs/folks to help him get started. So for all of you that wrote earlier that you would be willing to help an flatlander get started here is your chance. Please reply to him at his E-mail address @aol.com as he is not on the mail list. --part0_912457745_boundary Content-ID: <0_912457745@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-path: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello, I am searching the internet and happened to run across your name from an email you wrote concerning a rifle. You mentioned you and your wife are involved in reenactments. I would love to get involved in them but have no clue who to contact in my area. I live in Washington State. If you could help me I sure would appreciate it. Thanks Joe --part0_912457745_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan clothing Date: 30 Nov 1998 20:09:04 -0800 Hi Andrea, As for myself, I sew my shirts and usually purchase such items as trousers, socks and kerchiefs. Hope that helps. Best regards, Terry Smith Amoore2120@aol.com wrote: > . . . just curious, do the majority of present day MtMen sew or purchase your > replica MtMan clothing? Which pieces, specifically, do you sew and/or > regularly purchase? > > Thank you. > > Regards, > Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company > Amoore2120@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Apology and MtMan shirts Date: 01 Dec 1998 18:40:06 EST =09I reread my previous post on custom made clothing and to my utter horro= r I noticed, as you probably did, that it almost borders on well, rash. I wan= t to say that I am sorry as it was never my intention to appear so intent or ha= rsh and come across in any such manner=97I would sooner die than offend anybod= y. I hope I can get myself out of the dog house one day as I cannot go back and erase it. Maybe I can try to make up (do you think this might work)? for = it by offering cloth MtMan shirt construction/instructions, which, if done correctly, should start with a discussion of the rectangular shirt from wh= ich all other shirts evolved. =09From the pictures I have seen, the majority of early and present day Mt= Man cloth shirts (please correct me here if I am misinformed as I want to lear= n) are very simple in design, reflecting the first woven "tops" that were mad= e entirely from rectangular pieces with no consideration for body curves. T= he shirt consists of a long rectangle of fabric with a hole in the middle for= the head, two small rectangles of fabric for the arms and side seams that stit= ch it all together in straight seams. The construction is simple with the center-cut hole for the head and the rectangles attached on each side for = the arms (folding them in half along the shoulders) and stitching the sides together by hand using a running stitch. =09Shirts started out=97as did most garments in the days before easy acces= s to scissors=97as big rectangles of fabric. The rectangular shirt=92s side se= ams were simply the selvages of the fabric (selvage is the tightly woven boarder fo= und on all woven goods). The selvages are butted together and hand-stitched. Such seam lines can tend to be somewhat fragile requiring side-seam reinforcements. It is standard practice to add a reinforcing gusset to ta= ke any strain before the seam rips and to allow for more freedom of movement. =09This is all the time I have for now, more soon on actual construction. = I hope some of you will find this information useful. Sincerely, Andrea Moore =09=09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Wm. Ashley images Date: 02 Dec 1998 13:57:27 -0600 (CST) Is anyone aware of any images of William Ashley, where they are published, and what library or museum collections they might be found, if any? Thanks HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Campsite Date: 02 Dec 1998 22:19:44 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01BE1E41.DD2EEC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out the Dec. 1998 issue of Popular Science magazine for a short = article describing the discovery of what is believed to be a Lewis & = Clark campsite. Ken Karsmizki, an archaelogist from Montana State = University's Museum of the Rockies, located Lewis & Clark's Lower = Portage Camp on private land near Great Falls, Montana. Artifacts were = found beneath 4 to 7 inches of soil and include an iron pushpin, a gun = flint, a wooden stake and bison bones with hatchet marks. Radiocarbon = dating places the organic items at the proper time period. A magnetic = survey of the area turned up three fire pits, including one that bears = marks that are thought to be those of the three feet of an iron camp = kettle. The fire pits were spaced at 50 foot intervals in a straight = line in accordance with army regulations of the time. (Don't forget that = this was a military expedition) The camp was situated on a terrace = above the Missouri which afforded a clear view up and down the river (or = down and up the river if you think upstream is the other way) and anyone = approaching from land could be seen across an open prairie. Funding for = the archaeology was provided by Kampgrounds of America....who would have = thunk it?! See what happen when someone teaches a kid to read? YMOS Lanney ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01BE1E41.DD2EEC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Check out the Dec. 1998 issue of = Popular Science=20 magazine for a short article describing the discovery of what is = believed to be=20 a Lewis & Clark campsite.  Ken Karsmizki, an archaelogist from = Montana=20 State University's Museum of the Rockies, located Lewis & Clark's = Lower=20 Portage Camp on private land near Great Falls, Montana.  Artifacts = were=20 found beneath 4 to 7 inches of soil and include an iron pushpin, a gun = flint, a=20 wooden stake and bison bones with hatchet marks.  Radiocarbon = dating places=20 the organic items at the proper time period.  A magnetic survey of = the area=20 turned up three fire pits, including one that bears marks that are = thought to be=20 those of the three feet of an iron camp kettle.  The fire pits were = spaced=20 at 50 foot intervals in a straight line in accordance with army = regulations of=20 the time. (Don't forget that this was a military expedition)   = The=20 camp was situated on a terrace above the Missouri which afforded a clear = view up=20 and down the river (or down and up the river if you think upstream is = the other=20 way) and anyone approaching from land could be seen across an open=20 prairie.  Funding for the archaeology was provided by Kampgrounds = of=20 America....who would have thunk it?!
See what happen when someone teaches = a kid to=20 read?
YMOS
Lanney
------=_NextPart_000_006B_01BE1E41.DD2EEC60-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Stahelski" Subject: MtMan-List: concerning 1800's pants Date: 03 Dec 1998 11:18:16 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1EAE.9FAB50A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To whom it may concern, Sturbridge village employees gave me your e-mail address as a possible = lead in my search for someone who makes 17th Century styled pants.If you = are able to be of any service please send a catalogue to;F Power 27 = Enrico road Bolton CT 06043=20 thankyou, Flora. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1EAE.9FAB50A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To whom it may concern,
Sturbridge village employees gave me your e-mail = address as a=20 possible lead in my search for someone who makes 17th Century styled = pants.If=20 you are able to be of any service please send a catalogue to;F Power 27 = Enrico=20 road Bolton CT 06043
thankyou,
Flora.
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1EAE.9FAB50A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jennifer & Bill Lynch Subject: MtMan-List: smoothies Date: 03 Dec 1998 17:43:04 +0000 buck, thank ya for the reply. the information is much appreciated. i was able to trade my "long land pattern" musket (brown bess) for a custom made 20 gauge "northwest trade gun". with it's 42" barrel and queen anne lock it may be more of a fowler accordin to some. but by gum it's got a premium curly maple stock, antiqued barrel, serpentine side plate, oversized trigger guard and was made with american pride. http://www.moad.com/jbrown/ a question i have on this'n is i had the gunsmith install sling brackets which include a button sling pin on the butt. the only info i have on this option is the track catolog which states this is "a later style" sling option. was wonderin' if y'all had any info on that? one more question i might trouble ya with for the sake of historical philanderin'. i like my mocs as much as the next child, but sometimes when conditions demand i wear my brogans. i have been told they are "period" (pre 1840) but i'm wonderin' how far back the "period" for them goes? thank ye kindly bill lynch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wm. Ashley images Date: 04 Dec 1998 22:43:21 EST "William Ashley, Enterprise and Politics in the Trans-Mississippi West," by Richard M. Clokey, published by University of Oklahoma Press in Norman, OK, in 1980 conatains a picture of Elizabeth Moss Wilcox Ashley. The caption states it is "the only surviving portrait of a member of the Ashley family." (p. 260.) One would think if a picture was available, it would have showed up in this book unless it has been uncovered between 1980 and the present. Jim Hardee, AMM #1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Picking my brain . . . clothing Date: 04 Dec 1998 17:11:59 EST In a message dated 12/3/98 8:48:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, kramer@kramerize.com writes: << What were the methods and materials of bindings, interfacing and linings common to the early nineteenth century? What was the range (and method) of sizes in finished goods intended for trade? What types, colors and twists of thread were most common? What styles of seams and stitching were used for the various garments and areas of garments? Were French fell seams used or were they a development that came after the sewing machine? What were common seam allowances to protect from unraveling of fabrics? Did they vary by fabric? >> Dear John and others, I am happy to answer your questions: regarding bindings, were very narrow, finishing at less than 1/4 inch but not quite an eighth. They were cut on the straight grain of the fabric as bias would have wasted too much fabric. No interfacings were used however many pieces, especially those of silk were underlined with a brownish polished cotton. Both linen and silk thread was in use, the former was more common and the latter more expensive. The colors were mostly vegetable or animal dyed, so there were no colors not commonly found in nature. In fact, one shade of green was poisonous and women were cautioned not to moisten it in their mouths because they could become ill or worse! Running stitch, back stitch, and herringbone stitch were commonly used, the French seam was rare. The seams were tiny, it would make you tired just to look at them! The raw edges were roll-hemmed by hand and then the seams whipped together. I am sorry I do not have the time right now to elaborate but I hope this will help you for now. More soon on MtMan cloth shirt construction, fabrics and techniques that are easy to learn and do. Sincerely, Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company Amoroe2120@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: MtMan-List: Introduction and large new brain tanning website. Date: 04 Dec 1998 13:04:06 -0700 Hey y'all, I just joined this list and wanted to say hi. I've been a brain tanner by trade for the past 10 yrs and recently have been building a large website at www.braintan.com that has over 100 pages and growing, of info and resources, including articles (some historical), tutorials, a newsletter, online forum, as well as sources for tools, classes, books and videos. So a couple of things. If any of you brain tan, and either sell finished hides or garments, or teach classes....let me know so we can add you to the resource directory. Also if any of you have any brain tan oriented questions, fire away. Besides doing a lot of tanning, I've also researched over 100 accounts of Native tanning written by early explorers and ethnographers...and the evidence is much different than the common assumptions of what was going on. There is a seven page online article at www.braintan.com/articles/bbhtitle.html that is particularly about this. I haven't however found practically any accounts of how early mountain men went about their tanning. If any of you know of any, I'd love to hear about it. Matt Richards www.braintan.com 2755 Sinclair Creek Rd Eureka MT 59917 406-889-5532 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Introduction and large new brain tanning website. Date: 04 Dec 1998 23:27:26 EST Matt, Welcome to the list. You will be a welcome addition with your extensive knowledge of braintanning. I bought a copy of your book from Chris Mcpherson and it has been invaluable. Good to have you aboard. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: MtMan-List: Re: roll-hemmed? Date: 05 Dec 1998 16:22:28 -0600 > The raw edges were roll-hemmed by >hand and then the seams whipped together. Andrea, Please explain "roll-hemmed",how is it done etc.? I think I understand the whipped together part well enough,but then got lost with roll-hemmed. Thanks, Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: smoothies Date: 05 Dec 1998 19:36:38 EST about the sling holders on the trade gun ,the button in the rear i was not to wild about after hearing about the leather slipping off the button.i took a small carriage bolt sawed the head off ,drilled a small hold into the carriage bolt to hold the sling holder ,drilled a small hole about a inch behind the guard in the stock and screwed the bolt into the stock.are you can get ahold of me at traphand@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Date: 06 Dec 1998 20:38:33 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE2158.6473C560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello the camp, It has been a common problem for me to encounter a word in an old = journal or a shipping manifest from the early nineteenth century and not = be sure of its meaning. Sometimes, not a clue. To help clear the fog a = little I recently purchased a CD containing Noah Webster's 1828 = Dictionary. The dictionary was originally published in two volumes and = I hope it proves to be a valuable addition to my "library". I got it = from CTI (Christian Technologies, Inc) at http://www.christiantech.com = or at info@christiantech.com or call them at 800-366-8320. The price = is $34.95 including shipping. If anyone needs an occasional word looked up, contact me and I will try = to find it. Not long ago somebody asked if anyone knew what a certain = critter was that was listed on a list of furs that some trapper had = sold....sounded like a cat of some sort. Does anyone remember what that = critter was called? I'll look for it in ol' Noah's dictionary and post = the results, if any.=20 YMOS Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE2158.6473C560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 


 
Hello the camp,
It has been a common problem for me to encounter a = word in an=20 old journal or a shipping manifest from the early nineteenth century and = not be=20 sure of its meaning.  Sometimes, not a clue.  To help clear = the fog a=20 little I recently purchased a CD containing Noah Webster's 1828=20 Dictionary.  The dictionary was originally published in two volumes = and I=20 hope it proves to be a valuable addition to my = "library".  I got=20 it from CTI (Christian Technologies, Inc) at http://www.christiantech.com = or at info@christiantech.com  = or call=20 them at 800-366-8320.  The price is $34.95 including = shipping.
If anyone needs an occasional word looked up, = contact me and I=20 will try to find it.  Not long ago somebody asked if anyone knew = what a=20 certain critter was that was listed on a list of furs that some trapper = had=20 sold....sounded like a cat of some sort.  Does anyone remember what = that=20 critter was called?  I'll look for it in ol' Noah's dictionary and = post the=20 results, if any.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
rat@htcomp.net
 
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE2158.6473C560-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: concerning 1800's pants Date: 06 Dec 1998 19:25:57 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01BE214E.3FC392E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The best for this is Heritage Clothiers... Rick Haven used to work for = Williamsburg doing clothing. Their name and address are: Rick and Susan Haven Heritage Clothiers HC1 - Box 386 Crescent City, FL 32112 I have been buying clothes from them for years.... They just moved to = Florida and don't have a phone as yet. Drop them a line... Addison Miller -----Original Message----- From: David Stahelski To: hist_text@xmission.com Date: Thursday, December 03, 1998 11:55 PM Subject: MtMan-List: concerning 1800's pants =20 =20 To whom it may concern, Sturbridge village employees gave me your e-mail address as a = possible lead in my search for someone who makes 17th Century styled = pants.If you are able to be of any service please send a catalogue to;F = Power 27 Enrico road Bolton CT 06043=20 thankyou, Flora. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01BE214E.3FC392E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The best for this is Heritage = Clothiers... Rick=20 Haven used to work for Williamsburg doing clothing.  Their name and = address=20 are:
 
Rick and Susan Haven
Heritage Clothiers
HC1 - Box 386
Crescent City, FL  32112
 
I have been buying clothes from them for years.... = They just=20 moved to Florida and don't have a phone as yet.  Drop them a=20 line...
 
Addison Miller
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 David Stahelski <Stahelski@worldnet.att.net= >
To:=20 hist_text@xmission.com=20 <hist_text@xmission.com>
= Date:=20 Thursday, December 03, 1998 11:55 PM
Subject: = MtMan-List:=20 concerning 1800's pants

To whom it may = concern,
Sturbridge village employees gave me your e-mail = address=20 as a possible lead in my search for someone who makes 17th Century = styled=20 pants.If you are able to be of any service please send a catalogue = to;F=20 Power 27 Enrico road Bolton CT 06043
thankyou,
Flora.
------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01BE214E.3FC392E0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry Venden Subject: Re: MtMan-List: concerning 1800's pants Date: 06 Dec 1998 20:21:09 -0600 --------------F75EECB07BABB0C930137E28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I make pre-1800 clothing. Pants, breeches,dresses, vest, shirts and also leather garments. Please visit my web site http://www.geocities.com/~2wolvestrading/ If you know what you want, I'll make it for you. Please feel free to e-mail or call. Thanks Doe Eyes David Stahelski wrote: > To whom it may concern,Sturbridge village employees gave me your > e-mail address as a possible lead in my search for someone who makes > 17th Century styled pants.If you are able to be of any service please > send a catalogue to;F Power 27 Enrico road Bolton CT > 06043thankyou,Flora. --------------F75EECB07BABB0C930137E28 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I make pre-1800 clothing. Pants, breeches,dresses, vest, shirts and also leather garments.  Please visit my web site http://www.geocities.com/~2wolvestrading/
If you know what you want, I'll make it for you.  Please feel free to e-mail or call.
Thanks
Doe Eyes

David Stahelski wrote:
 To whom it may concern,Sturbridge village employees gave me your e-mail address as a possible lead in my search for someone who makes 17th Century styled pants.If you are able to be of any service please send a catalogue to;F Power 27 Enrico road Bolton CT 06043thankyou,Flora.
  --------------F75EECB07BABB0C930137E28-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!] Date: 06 Dec 1998 11:17:06 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------02F7F610847AB2FC1E35551C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Dear Friends and etc. Back in Jan. my "Hairy Lizard" buddy Louie Lewis invited me to come hunt in a N. Idaho M/L Elk hunt this Nov. In anticipation I bought and built in Oct. a "Mark Silver" rifle in .62 cal. flint from Jim Chambers. I got it sighted in with a good load of 3fff under a .60 round ball and on the 19th of Nov. set off for the Clearwater Nat. Forest in Idaho. > For the next two weeks we hunted hard. It rained most every day with a couple of > days of light snow that didn't stick well. We would get up at 0530 and hunt until > 10, then come back to camp and have breakfast. We went out again until dark. I > usually was in my bedroll by 2000. Louie go > a white tail doe about a week into the hunt and got another shot at a cow in a > group of several but again no blood just a tuft of hair and 2 hours of trying > to figure which set of tracks were hers. Cliff Nole of N. Idaho got his elk a > week into the hunt. There were 5 white tails brought into camp by others in the > party, even a few grouse. > > We came back to Lewiston the night before Thanks Giving and we had dinner with > Louies friends and family at his daughter Brandy's house and then went back up on > > the mountain that night. We covered a lot of country in the next few days and > Louie took Mo. through Wed. this week off to stay with me a few more days but > had to go down Wed. It rained all day Wed so hard that we didn't go out. Just > stayed under cove. Two of his buddies and new friends of mine, Jerry and his dad > and mom, Bill and Noreen > stayed up but were gona have to leave Friday. I figured I'd stay as long as > there was some one in camp to help if I got lucky. > Over the two weeks I got real close to several white tail and got the shit scared > out of me by grouse going ballistic at my feet a number of times. There were > several moose in the > area we hunted and I walked by them at close range several times. I saw a few > elk from time to time but they never presented me with anything but long canyon > shots or just legs. One day I was walking just off the trail looking for a > place to dump and found a nice private copus of trees. I was just about ready > to lean my gun up when the elk that I had just walked by at about 10' decided > to leave. I saw 3 1/2 legs go through the brush about 20' away and aimed at the > next opening. It never came by and must have turned just enough to miss that > one spot I could have shot. > > On Thursday we went up the mountain behind camp with Jerry in the little valley > and Bill and I up on the ridge. I walked out a skid road on Jerry's side of the > ridge and about a mile into the walk passed a white tail at 20'. She moved and > I turned at the sound. I saw her as she went up the hill but just long enough > to know I wasn't seeing elk. I walked back out to the end of the skid road and > crossed back over the ridge and went back down the road Bill and I had come up > until I came to an old logging road that went off to the east about half way to > camp. I walked up it until I came to the end and not seeing any fresh tracks > came back down to the next spur going east and started around that road as it > went around another little ridge. > > As it came out on the next draw, the ground opened up on a large old log deck > with a nice little meadow beyond. I slowly walked over to the edge of the > grassed over log deck and as I came to the edge I heard a limb break on the far > side of the little valley. I froze where I was and within moments a big cow elk > walked out of the > "Christmas Trees" and stood sideways to me. I found out later that it was 112 > long paces from where I was to where her tracks were at that moment. I figured > I didn't have much time so I raised up the .62 flinter from "Chambers" , off > hand, > and picked a sight hold about a foot down from the back and just behind the > shoulder and squeezed off my shot. In two weeks of rain and in about a half > dozen shots to re-clean the gun, this rifle never failed to go off and with > almost instantaneous ignition. She didn't fail me this time and with a gentle > squeeze the ball was on its way. > > The smoke cleared quickly and I saw her walk off to the right. I reloaded as I > watched an elk go straight up the hill opposite and disappear. I walked slowly > to where my target had been standing and found her tracks. I thought I heard a > quiet bark from above as elk will do to relocate each other. The tracks went > to the right for a few feet and then turned up the hill and to the left as they > entered the "Christmas Trees". No blood and no hair! At the first couple of fir > trees at shoulder height to me I saw what I was hoping for, blood on both > trees! I mumbled a little something to the Great One that this not turn out bad > and started up the blood trail. The hill quickly became almost vertical and as > I followed the trail it was necessary to pull myself up by grabbing tree limbs > and trunks. I think that hill must have been at something like 70+ degrees of > slope! About 50' into the climb I looked up through an opening and there she > was, sideways to the hill and wedged against a 10" pine with legs tucked under > the body. Thank You! says I. Out came the knife and after the obligatory letting > of my own blood to mingle with her's I took care of opening up the body cavity > and by > that time it was way too late to do anything but get to camp. > > We went in Friday about noon and got the meat out of the woods and back to > camp. I paced off the shot and wished I could have gotten closer. The .60 round > ball went in right where I was holding, busted a rib, took out both lungs, and > going through another rib on the opposite side went into the hill. I got a > garage full of meat to cut and wrap and Terri is back from church to help so > will close for now. I remain most greatfull and humble............ YMOSCapt. Lahti' > > > --------------02F7F610847AB2FC1E35551C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <366AC097.F585B324@gte.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 "birchbark@sprintmail.com" References: <3.0.5.32.19981127190902.007e97b0@proaxis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, Mike, et,al. Got back about non on Sat. Dead tired and with 1400+ messages on this machine! Louie and I got a shot at a big cow Elk two sundays back and while I was reloading, he ran ahead and using his swivel .62 flinter shot at her again. He apparently hit her and we found blood. The first shot we took at the same moment but it was a long way out and I was using 90 gr. I don't think we hit her. His second shot brought blood but not much and by the time she went to the top of the hill, she got into so many other tracks that we couldn't pick her out. We looked for quit a while and then ran into Cliff Nole and another friend and went on. It rained most every day with a couple of days of light snow that didn't stick well. I had a Honda 4 wheeler to ride out on each day if I wanted. We would get up at 0530 and hunt until 10, then come back to camp and have breakfast. We went out again until dark. I usually was in bed by 2000. Louie go a white tail doe about a week into the hunt and got another shot at a cow in a group of several but again no blood just a tuft of hair and 2 hours of trying to figure which set of tracks were hers. I came back to Lewiston the night before Thanks Giving and we had dinner with his friends and family at his daughter Brandy's house and then went back up on the mountain that night. We covered a lot of country in the next few days and Louie took Mo. through Wed. this week off to stay with me a few more days but had to go down Wed. It rained all day Wed so hard that we didn't go out. Two of his buddies and new friends of mine, Jerry and his dad and mom, Bill and Noreen stayed up but were gona have to leave Thursday. I figured I'd stay as long as there was some one in camp to help if I got lucky. Over the two weeks I got real close to several white tail and got the shit scared out of me by grouse going ballistic at my feet a number of times. There were several moose in the area we hunted and I walked by them at close range several times. I saw a few elk from time to time but they never presented me with anything but long canyon shots or just legs. One day I was walking just off the trail looking for a place to dump and found a nice private copus of trees. I was just about ready to lean my gun up when the elk that I had just walked by at about 10' decided to leave. I saw 3 1/2 legs go through the brush about 20' away and aimed at the next opening. It never came by and must have turned just enough to miss that one spot I could have shot. On Thursday we went up the mountain behind camp with Jerry in the little valley and Bill and I up on the ridge. I walked out a skid road on Jerry's side of the ridge and about a mile into the walk passed a white tail at 20'. She moved and I turned at the sound. I saw her as she went up the hill but just long enough to know I wasn't seeing elk. I walked out to the end of the skid road and crossed back over the ridge and went back down the road Bill and I had come up until I came to an old logging road that went off to the east about half way to camp. I walked up it until I came to the end and not seeing any fresh tracks came back down to the next spur going east and started around that road as it went around another little ridge. As it came out on the next draw, the ground opened up on a large old log deck with a nice little meadow beyond. I slowly walked over to the edge of the grassed over log deck and as I came to the edge I heard a limb break on the far side. I froze where I was and within moments a big cow elk walked out of the "Christmas Trees" and stood sideways to me. I found out later that it was 112 long paces from where I was to where her tracks were at that moment. I figured I didn't have much time so I raised up the .62 flinter from "Chambers" off hand and picked a sight hold about a foot down from the back and just behind the shoulder and squeezed off my shot. In two weeks of rain and in about a half dozen shots to re-clean the gun, This rifle never failed to go off and with almost instantaneous ignition. She didn't fail me this time and with a gentle squeeze the ball was on its way. The smoke cleared quickly and I saw her walk off to the right. I reloaded and watched an elk go straight up the hill opposite and disappear. I walked slowly to where my target had been standing and found her tracks. I thought I heard a quiet bark from above as elk will do to relocate each other. The tracks went right for a few feet and then turned up the hill and to the left as they entered the "Christmas Trees". NO blood and no hair! At the first couple of fir trees at shoulder height to me I saw what I was hoping for, blood on both limbs. I mumbled a little something to the Great One that this not turn out bad and started up the blood trail. The hill quickly became almost vertical and as I followed the trail it was necessary to pull myself up by grabbing tree limbs and trunks. I think that hill must have been at something like 70+ degrees of slope! About 50' into the climb I looked up through an opening and there she was, sideways to the hill and wedged against a 10" pine with legs tucked under the body. Thank You! says I. I took care of opening up the body cavity and by that time it was way too late to do anything but get to camp. We went in Friday about noon and got the meat out of the woods and back to camp. I paced off the shot and wished I could have gotten closer. The .60 round ball went in right where I was holding, busted a rib, took out both lungs, and going through another rib on the opposite side went into the hill. I got a garage full of meat to cut and wrap and Terri is back from church to help so will close for now. Talk at you both later, Your buddy Rog' --------------02F7F610847AB2FC1E35551C-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!] Date: 06 Dec 1998 21:37:23 -0600 Not bad, Capt., not bad. Some folks know how to have a good time better than others. I envy you the experience. YMOS Lanney ps: The big pot you made for me (you know the one) continues to garner rave reviews. Having such a unique piece of equipment is very satisfying. Thanks again. -----Original Message----- ; hist_text@lists.xmission.com ; Jeffery Lahti ; Joe Ford ; Mike Duncanson ; Petrie, Ronald C ; RLINDSEY@webtv.net ; ThisOldFox > > > > >> Dear Friends and etc. > >Back in Jan. my "Hairy Lizard" buddy Louie Lewis invited me to come hunt in a N. >Idaho M/L Elk hunt this Nov. In anticipation I bought and built in Oct. a "Mark >Silver" rifle in .62 cal. flint from Jim Chambers. I got it sighted in with a good >load of 3fff under a .60 round ball and on the 19th of Nov. set off for the >Clearwater Nat. Forest in Idaho. > >> For the next two weeks we hunted hard. It rained most every day with a couple of >> days of light snow that didn't stick well. We would get up at 0530 and hunt until >> 10, then come back to camp and have breakfast. We went out again until dark. I >> usually was in my bedroll by 2000. Louie go >> a white tail doe about a week into the hunt and got another shot at a cow in a >> group of several but again no blood just a tuft of hair and 2 hours of trying >> to figure which set of tracks were hers. Cliff Nole of N. Idaho got his elk a >> week into the hunt. There were 5 white tails brought into camp by others in the >> party, even a few grouse. >> >> We came back to Lewiston the night before Thanks Giving and we had dinner with >> Louies friends and family at his daughter Brandy's house and then went back up on >> >> the mountain that night. We covered a lot of country in the next few days and >> Louie took Mo. through Wed. this week off to stay with me a few more days but >> had to go down Wed. It rained all day Wed so hard that we didn't go out. Just >> stayed under cove. Two of his buddies and new friends of mine, Jerry and his dad >> and mom, Bill and Noreen >> stayed up but were gona have to leave Friday. I figured I'd stay as long as >> there was some one in camp to help if I got lucky. > >> Over the two weeks I got real close to several white tail and got the shit scared >> out of me by grouse going ballistic at my feet a number of times. There were >> several moose in the >> area we hunted and I walked by them at close range several times. I saw a few >> elk from time to time but they never presented me with anything but long canyon >> shots or just legs. One day I was walking just off the trail looking for a >> place to dump and found a nice private copus of trees. I was just about ready >> to lean my gun up when the elk that I had just walked by at about 10' decided >> to leave. I saw 3 1/2 legs go through the brush about 20' away and aimed at the >> next opening. It never came by and must have turned just enough to miss that >> one spot I could have shot. >> >> On Thursday we went up the mountain behind camp with Jerry in the little valley >> and Bill and I up on the ridge. I walked out a skid road on Jerry's side of the >> ridge and about a mile into the walk passed a white tail at 20'. She moved and >> I turned at the sound. I saw her as she went up the hill but just long enough >> to know I wasn't seeing elk. I walked back out to the end of the skid road and >> crossed back over the ridge and went back down the road Bill and I had come up >> until I came to an old logging road that went off to the east about half way to >> camp. I walked up it until I came to the end and not seeing any fresh tracks >> came back down to the next spur going east and started around that road as it >> went around another little ridge. >> >> As it came out on the next draw, the ground opened up on a large old log deck >> with a nice little meadow beyond. I slowly walked over to the edge of the >> grassed over log deck and as I came to the edge I heard a limb break on the far >> side of the little valley. I froze where I was and within moments a big cow elk >> walked out of the >> "Christmas Trees" and stood sideways to me. I found out later that it was 112 >> long paces from where I was to where her tracks were at that moment. I figured >> I didn't have much time so I raised up the .62 flinter from "Chambers" , off >> hand, >> and picked a sight hold about a foot down from the back and just behind the >> shoulder and squeezed off my shot. In two weeks of rain and in about a half >> dozen shots to re-clean the gun, this rifle never failed to go off and with >> almost instantaneous ignition. She didn't fail me this time and with a gentle >> squeeze the ball was on its way. >> >> The smoke cleared quickly and I saw her walk off to the right. I reloaded as I >> watched an elk go straight up the hill opposite and disappear. I walked slowly >> to where my target had been standing and found her tracks. I thought I heard a >> quiet bark from above as elk will do to relocate each other. The tracks went >> to the right for a few feet and then turned up the hill and to the left as they >> entered the "Christmas Trees". No blood and no hair! At the first couple of fir >> trees at shoulder height to me I saw what I was hoping for, blood on both >> trees! I mumbled a little something to the Great One that this not turn out bad >> and started up the blood trail. The hill quickly became almost vertical and as >> I followed the trail it was necessary to pull myself up by grabbing tree limbs >> and trunks. I think that hill must have been at something like 70+ degrees of >> slope! About 50' into the climb I looked up through an opening and there she >> was, sideways to the hill and wedged against a 10" pine with legs tucked under >> the body. Thank You! says I. Out came the knife and after the obligatory letting >> of my own blood to mingle with her's I took care of opening up the body cavity >> and by >> that time it was way too late to do anything but get to camp. >> >> We went in Friday about noon and got the meat out of the woods and back to >> camp. I paced off the shot and wished I could have gotten closer. The .60 round >> ball went in right where I was holding, busted a rib, took out both lungs, and >> going through another rib on the opposite side went into the hill. I got a >> garage full of meat to cut and wrap and Terri is back from church to help so >> will close for now. I remain most greatfull and humble............ > >YMOSCapt. Lahti' > >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!] Date: 06 Dec 1998 19:55:21 -0800 Lanney, Thanks for the come back. Glad you are having fun with the pot. Yea, I had a good time and hope others enjoyed sharing the experience with me. The wife and I spent today cutting up two front and two rear legs and the freezer is damned near full! I will start on the main part of the carcase tomorrow, neck, ribs, loins, etc. Should be some fine eating for the better part of the year. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!] Date: 06 Dec 1998 22:59:02 -0500 Congrats, Capt'n!! Good shooting... Its always good to hear of someone filling their tag and makin meat... Addison Miller -----Original Message----- ; hist_text@lists.xmission.com ; Jeffery Lahti ; Joe Ford ; Mike Duncanson ; Petrie, Ronald C ; RLINDSEY@webtv.net ; ThisOldFox > > > > >> Dear Friends and etc. > >Back in Jan. my "Hairy Lizard" buddy Louie Lewis invited me to come hunt in a N. >Idaho M/L Elk hunt this Nov. In anticipation I bought and built in Oct. a "Mark >Silver" rifle in .62 cal. flint from Jim Chambers. I got it sighted in with a good >load of 3fff under a .60 round ball and on the 19th of Nov. set off for the >Clearwater Nat. Forest in Idaho. > >> For the next two weeks we hunted hard. It rained most every day with a couple of >> days of light snow that didn't stick well. We would get up at 0530 and hunt until >> 10, then come back to camp and have breakfast. We went out again until dark. I >> usually was in my bedroll by 2000. Louie go >> a white tail doe about a week into the hunt and got another shot at a cow in a >> group of several but again no blood just a tuft of hair and 2 hours of trying >> to figure which set of tracks were hers. Cliff Nole of N. Idaho got his elk a >> week into the hunt. There were 5 white tails brought into camp by others in the >> party, even a few grouse. >> >> We came back to Lewiston the night before Thanks Giving and we had dinner with >> Louies friends and family at his daughter Brandy's house and then went back up on >> >> the mountain that night. We covered a lot of country in the next few days and >> Louie took Mo. through Wed. this week off to stay with me a few more days but >> had to go down Wed. It rained all day Wed so hard that we didn't go out. Just >> stayed under cove. Two of his buddies and new friends of mine, Jerry and his dad >> and mom, Bill and Noreen >> stayed up but were gona have to leave Friday. I figured I'd stay as long as >> there was some one in camp to help if I got lucky. > >> Over the two weeks I got real close to several white tail and got the shit scared >> out of me by grouse going ballistic at my feet a number of times. There were >> several moose in the >> area we hunted and I walked by them at close range several times. I saw a few >> elk from time to time but they never presented me with anything but long canyon >> shots or just legs. One day I was walking just off the trail looking for a >> place to dump and found a nice private copus of trees. I was just about ready >> to lean my gun up when the elk that I had just walked by at about 10' decided >> to leave. I saw 3 1/2 legs go through the brush about 20' away and aimed at the >> next opening. It never came by and must have turned just enough to miss that >> one spot I could have shot. >> >> On Thursday we went up the mountain behind camp with Jerry in the little valley >> and Bill and I up on the ridge. I walked out a skid road on Jerry's side of the >> ridge and about a mile into the walk passed a white tail at 20'. She moved and >> I turned at the sound. I saw her as she went up the hill but just long enough >> to know I wasn't seeing elk. I walked back out to the end of the skid road and >> crossed back over the ridge and went back down the road Bill and I had come up >> until I came to an old logging road that went off to the east about half way to >> camp. I walked up it until I came to the end and not seeing any fresh tracks >> came back down to the next spur going east and started around that road as it >> went around another little ridge. >> >> As it came out on the next draw, the ground opened up on a large old log deck >> with a nice little meadow beyond. I slowly walked over to the edge of the >> grassed over log deck and as I came to the edge I heard a limb break on the far >> side of the little valley. I froze where I was and within moments a big cow elk >> walked out of the >> "Christmas Trees" and stood sideways to me. I found out later that it was 112 >> long paces from where I was to where her tracks were at that moment. I figured >> I didn't have much time so I raised up the .62 flinter from "Chambers" , off >> hand, >> and picked a sight hold about a foot down from the back and just behind the >> shoulder and squeezed off my shot. In two weeks of rain and in about a half >> dozen shots to re-clean the gun, this rifle never failed to go off and with >> almost instantaneous ignition. She didn't fail me this time and with a gentle >> squeeze the ball was on its way. >> >> The smoke cleared quickly and I saw her walk off to the right. I reloaded as I >> watched an elk go straight up the hill opposite and disappear. I walked slowly >> to where my target had been standing and found her tracks. I thought I heard a >> quiet bark from above as elk will do to relocate each other. The tracks went >> to the right for a few feet and then turned up the hill and to the left as they >> entered the "Christmas Trees". No blood and no hair! At the first couple of fir >> trees at shoulder height to me I saw what I was hoping for, blood on both >> trees! I mumbled a little something to the Great One that this not turn out bad >> and started up the blood trail. The hill quickly became almost vertical and as >> I followed the trail it was necessary to pull myself up by grabbing tree limbs >> and trunks. I think that hill must have been at something like 70+ degrees of >> slope! About 50' into the climb I looked up through an opening and there she >> was, sideways to the hill and wedged against a 10" pine with legs tucked under >> the body. Thank You! says I. Out came the knife and after the obligatory letting >> of my own blood to mingle with her's I took care of opening up the body cavity >> and by >> that time it was way too late to do anything but get to camp. >> >> We went in Friday about noon and got the meat out of the woods and back to >> camp. I paced off the shot and wished I could have gotten closer. The .60 round >> ball went in right where I was holding, busted a rib, took out both lungs, and >> going through another rib on the opposite side went into the hill. I got a >> garage full of meat to cut and wrap and Terri is back from church to help so >> will close for now. I remain most greatfull and humble............ > >YMOSCapt. Lahti' > >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!] Date: 06 Dec 1998 23:09:04 -0500 Roger Lahti wrote: > > Lanney, > > Thanks for the come back. Glad you are having fun with the pot. Yea, I had a > good time and hope others enjoyed sharing the experience with me. The wife and I > spent today cutting up two front and two rear legs and the freezer is damned > near full! I will start on the main part of the carcase tomorrow, neck, ribs, > loins, etc. Should be some fine eating for the better part of the year. I > remain.... Ahhhh.....and that's the best part! Elk is so good eating! 'Glad you had a fine trip, and success! Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!] Date: 06 Dec 1998 20:07:38 -0800 Thanks Brother, spending two weeks in the mountains of N. Idaho hunting elk was a tough job but some one had to do it and I am glad it was me. I remain......... YMOS+dog tired Capt. Lahti' Addison Miller wrote: > Congrats, Capt'n!! Good shooting... Its always good to hear of someone > filling their tag and makin meat... > > Addison Miller > ----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!] Date: 06 Dec 1998 20:15:30 -0800 Your right there Fred and it has been a bit of a dry spell. Thanks. I remain..... Full of elk meat! Fred A. Miller wrote: > Roger Lahti wrote: > > > > Lanney, > > > > Thanks for the come back. Glad you are having fun with the pot. Yea, I had a > > good time and hope others enjoyed sharing the experience with me. The wife and I > > spent today cutting up two front and two rear legs and the freezer is damned > > near full! I will start on the main part of the carcase tomorrow, neck, ribs, > > loins, etc. Should be some fine eating for the better part of the year. I > > remain.... > > Ahhhh.....and that's the best part! Elk is so good eating! 'Glad you > had a fine trip, and success! > > Fred > > -- > "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Hand rolled-hem reply, 1 Date: 07 Dec 1998 11:26:36 EST In a message dated 12/5/98 8:37:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, kestrel@ticon= .net writes: << Andrea, Please explain "roll-hemmed",how is it done etc.? I think I understand the whipped together part well enough,but then got lost with roll-hemmed. Thanks, Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well >> Dear Jeff and others, =09A bit of introductory information on hand needles, I believe, might pro= vide some useful background information for success in hand sewing and for lear= ning the hand stitched rolled hem. The many types of needles that are made for hand sewing are each designed for a specific purpose. Generally, a needle should be fine enough to slip through fabric, yet heavy enough not to bend= or break. Always work with a clean, well-pointed needle. When choosing=97th= e larger the number, the shorter and finer the needle. =09For most hand sewing tasks, I suggest a hand sewing needle type called "Sharps" (sizes 1-12). They are medium in length with a rounded eye and a= re suitable for almost all fabric weights. Purchase only highest quality han= d needles. Good quality hand needles will last you a lifetime and those of cheap quality will cause you incessant grief and frustration. Look for fi= ne quality Milward English needles sold in sewing supply stores or catalogs. =09My next post will answer the hand rolled hem query. Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company Amoore2120@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Hand rolled-hem reply, 2 Date: 07 Dec 1998 11:41:46 EST In a message dated 12/5/98 8:37:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, kestrel@ticon= .net writes: << Andrea, Please explain "roll-hemmed",how is it done etc.? I think I understand the whipped together part well enough,but then got lost with roll-hemmed. Thanks, Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well >> =09HAND STITCHED ROLLED HEM =09Devising a means that will keep the fabric edge taut during hemming see= ms to greatly assist in the process. When hemming at home, I like to sit at the= end of the sofa and use the arm as a pin cushion hemming clamp, holding the fa= bric edge taut while I hem. To further explain: pin the fabric edge to the cou= ch arm and hold the fabric with the left hand approximately 6 inch to 10 inch= es away. This allows the right hand to stitch the rolled hem quickly and eve= nly. During the nineteenth century needle workers had hemming clamps which held= the fabric firmly at one end. You can buy reproduction third-hand clamps. =09Select a very fine needle (size 10) and extra fine thread. I like to u= se cotton machine embroidery thread which is readily available but fine linen thread is probably more authentic. Another option is to separate the plie= s of a piece of embroidery floss or other. Approximately 18 inches is a conven= ient sewing thread length. To prevent tangling, knotting and curling of the thread, draw the entire length of thread through a chunk of bees wax three times. Next heat the length of thread with a hot iron or other means to m= elt away small wax lumps and to completely permeate the thread with the wax. This will not only make your hand sewing easier but will also permanently strengthen the thread. =09Next, sew a close running stitch about =BD inch from the raw edge. Thi= s will stabilize the raw edge and serve as a guide for an even, straight hem. RUNNING STITCH =09Running stitches should be very short (as short as is humanly possible)= . Proceed by working the point of the needle up and down through the fabric layer taking up several stitches before pulling the needle through. =09Or you can cheat (like I do) and machine sew the straight stitch (1/2 i= nch from raw edge). The stitches will be completely covered by the rolled hem= and I believe this means provides a more stable edge than the hand stitching. However, to be totally authentic, all stitching must be hand done. =09Next, carefully trim close to the stitched line. To avoid fraying, tri= m off only about 8 inches to 10 inches at a time. Hide the knot within the roll= . With wrong side up, roll the trimmed edge between your thumb and forefinge= r to enclose the stitched line. For a tighter roll moisten before rolling. Ho= ld the rolled edge firmly over your forefinger between your thumb and middle finger. Hem the trimmed edge using a small overcast stitch. HAND OVERCAST STITCH =09Using tiny stitches take up just one or two yarns (the threads used in = making yardage are called yarns), pulling the thread completely through after eac= h stitch. =09Continue to trim and hem until the edge is finished. To avoid pressing= the hem flat, press only up to (against) the hem roll as the desired end resul= t is a small, firm and round hem. =09Next time I will discuss the hand overcast stitch which is an easier an= d quicker seam edge finish. We will also discuss homespun fabric sources an= d some interesting rectangular shirt history--must be running along for now. Please let me know if you have questions. =09Oh, I almost forgot, if any of you are interested, I am a regular autho= r in Threads magazine. Taunton Press put my recent article on their internet s= ite if you would like to take a look at: http://www.taunton.com/th/features/techniques/33soup.h Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company Amoore2120@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan Replica Clothing Notebook Date: 07 Dec 1998 12:27:51 EST Hello All! . . . just one more thought, this might be a good time, before we get too far along, to suggest starting a notebook on the MtMan replica clothing techniques that we will be covering. It is a good way to organize your information, adding samples and photographs, and a good reference when you teach younger boys and others later on. You can probably pick up a suitable notebook at your local office supply center (or trading post). To help keep the topics organized you can make or buy some dividers and label them according to subject. We will start with the MtMan replica cloth (rectangle) shirt, next I presume will come the wool (blanket) capote, followed by a braintan shirt (or other) project. I hope my sewing posts will bring the concept of sewing some of your own clothing and furnishing items to a more feasible level for those of you who would like to give it a whirl. I will help you all I can as I have the spare time--looking forward to learning with all of you. Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company Amoore2120@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Snow Shoeing Date: 07 Dec 1998 11:46:39 -0800 Grant, I personally don't think you can go wrong by wearing winter moc,s and securing your snow shoes with the method used by the Native Americans. You will find directions for the hitch used in a "Ben Hunt" Indian Crafts" book. It requires two whangs of leather. One over the toes and one around the heal. I quit using the leather buckle style as soon as I learned how to tie the indian hitch ( it was actually invented by my Finnish Forefathers and introduced to the indians well before Columbus). Your winter mocs should have room for a wool blanket bootie inside and what ever sock you wish to wear. Don't try to do a lot of waterproofing on the mocs and they will be very sure footed on the snow. I like brain tan as the leather of choice for lashings and mocs. I do grease the lashings. Got any further questions just ask. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Grantd9@aol.com wrote: > I am probably going to get some snow shoes for Christmas and need some gear > help/advice. Where can I find a pattern or instructions for making authentic > bindings? What is the best leather to use for bindings? Or is there a better > material for bindings? What are other items that are good to have when > pre-1840 snow shoeing? I will be wearing them mostly when persuing small game > in the winter woods. Is there a type of gator that would be authentic for a > transitional longhunter (1785-1795)? What are some good sources of > information on gear for cold weather jaunting? Anyway, that is more than > enough questions for now. Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. Thanks. > > Grant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Date: 06 Dec 1998 22:35:31 +0000 Was the animal a conie? Laura Jean ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Date: 07 Dec 1998 21:29:22 -0600 No, not a conie. Conie was not listed in the 1828 dictionary. Neither = was pecheon. Thanks for trying. Lanney -----Original Message----- >Was the animal a conie?=20 > >Laura Jean > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!] Date: 08 Dec 1998 01:02:38 -0500 CPT: glad to have you back just made it home myself from being out making winter meat---hunted arkansas and mo. ken yellowfeather joined me in arkansas and saw the old original 54 make meat---ran a monster buck over the top of him and he didn'nt get a shot---long story---saw lots of deer and filled all of my tags---good year except it was really too warm and there was not a good acorn crop in arkansas ---the mo. deer are corn and bean fed---got to take the h.e. leman gun I restored and kill a a nice 6 point one shot at about 70 yds with .495 round ball and 80 gr FFFg ---folded him up in his tracks like he was hit with a sledge hammer and didn't hirt any meat---broke a rib on both sides and exploded his heart and lungs---usually they run a few yards-- we eat good this winter for sure---glad to have you back--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:17:06 -0800 Roger Lahti writes: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >--------------02F7F610847AB2FC1E35551C >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > >> Dear Friends and etc. > >Back in Jan. my "Hairy Lizard" buddy Louie Lewis invited me to come >hunt in a N. >Idaho M/L Elk hunt this Nov. In anticipation I bought and built in >Oct. a "Mark >Silver" rifle in .62 cal. flint from Jim Chambers. I got it sighted in >with a good >load of 3fff under a .60 round ball and on the 19th of Nov. set off >for the >Clearwater Nat. Forest in Idaho. > >> For the next two weeks we hunted hard. It rained most every day >with a couple of >> days of light snow that didn't stick well. We would get up at 0530 >and hunt until >> 10, then come back to camp and have breakfast. We went out again >until dark. I >> usually was in my bedroll by 2000. Louie go >> a white tail doe about a week into the hunt and got another shot at >a cow in a >> group of several but again no blood just a tuft of hair and 2 hours >of trying >> to figure which set of tracks were hers. Cliff Nole of N. Idaho got >his elk a >> week into the hunt. There were 5 white tails brought into camp by >others in the >> party, even a few grouse. >> >> We came back to Lewiston the night before Thanks Giving and we had >dinner with >> Louies friends and family at his daughter Brandy's house and then >went back up on >> >> the mountain that night. We covered a lot of country in the next few >days and >> Louie took Mo. through Wed. this week off to stay with me a few more >days but >> had to go down Wed. It rained all day Wed so hard that we didn't go >out. Just >> stayed under cove. Two of his buddies and new friends of mine, Jerry >and his dad >> and mom, Bill and Noreen >> stayed up but were gona have to leave Friday. I figured I'd stay as >long as >> there was some one in camp to help if I got lucky. > >> Over the two weeks I got real close to several white tail and got >the shit scared >> out of me by grouse going ballistic at my feet a number of times. >There were >> several moose in the >> area we hunted and I walked by them at close range several times. I >saw a few >> elk from time to time but they never presented me with anything but >long canyon >> shots or just legs. One day I was walking just off the trail looking >for a >> place to dump and found a nice private copus of trees. I was just >about ready >> to lean my gun up when the elk that I had just walked by at about >10' decided >> to leave. I saw 3 1/2 legs go through the brush about 20' away and >aimed at the >> next opening. It never came by and must have turned just enough to >miss that >> one spot I could have shot. >> >> On Thursday we went up the mountain behind camp with Jerry in the >little valley >> and Bill and I up on the ridge. I walked out a skid road on Jerry's >side of the >> ridge and about a mile into the walk passed a white tail at 20'. She >moved and >> I turned at the sound. I saw her as she went up the hill but just >long enough >> to know I wasn't seeing elk. I walked back out to the end of the >skid road and >> crossed back over the ridge and went back down the road Bill and I >had come up >> until I came to an old logging road that went off to the east about >half way to >> camp. I walked up it until I came to the end and not seeing any >fresh tracks >> came back down to the next spur going east and started around that >road as it >> went around another little ridge. >> >> As it came out on the next draw, the ground opened up on a large old >log deck >> with a nice little meadow beyond. I slowly walked over to the edge >of the >> grassed over log deck and as I came to the edge I heard a limb break >on the far >> side of the little valley. I froze where I was and within moments a >big cow elk >> walked out of the >> "Christmas Trees" and stood sideways to me. I found out later that >it was 112 >> long paces from where I was to where her tracks were at that moment. >I figured >> I didn't have much time so I raised up the .62 flinter from >"Chambers" , off >> hand, >> and picked a sight hold about a foot down from the back and just >behind the >> shoulder and squeezed off my shot. In two weeks of rain and in about >a half >> dozen shots to re-clean the gun, this rifle never failed to go off >and with >> almost instantaneous ignition. She didn't fail me this time and with >a gentle >> squeeze the ball was on its way. >> >> The smoke cleared quickly and I saw her walk off to the right. I >reloaded as I >> watched an elk go straight up the hill opposite and disappear. I >walked slowly >> to where my target had been standing and found her tracks. I thought >I heard a >> quiet bark from above as elk will do to relocate each other. The >tracks went >> to the right for a few feet and then turned up the hill and to the >left as they >> entered the "Christmas Trees". No blood and no hair! At the first >couple of fir >> trees at shoulder height to me I saw what I was hoping for, blood on >both >> trees! I mumbled a little something to the Great One that this not >turn out bad >> and started up the blood trail. The hill quickly became almost >vertical and as >> I followed the trail it was necessary to pull myself up by grabbing >tree limbs >> and trunks. I think that hill must have been at something like 70+ >degrees of >> slope! About 50' into the climb I looked up through an opening and >there she >> was, sideways to the hill and wedged against a 10" pine with legs >tucked under >> the body. Thank You! says I. Out came the knife and after the >obligatory letting >> of my own blood to mingle with her's I took care of opening up the >body cavity >> and by >> that time it was way too late to do anything but get to camp. >> >> We went in Friday about noon and got the meat out of the woods and >back to >> camp. I paced off the shot and wished I could have gotten closer. >The .60 round >> ball went in right where I was holding, busted a rib, took out both >lungs, and >> going through another rib on the opposite side went into the hill. I >got a >> garage full of meat to cut and wrap and Terri is back from church to >help so >> will close for now. I remain most greatfull and humble............ > >YMOSCapt. Lahti' > >> >> >> > > > >--------------02F7F610847AB2FC1E35551C >Content-Type: message/rfc822 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline > >Message-ID: <366AC097.F585B324@gte.net> >Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 09:36:24 -0800 >From: Roger Lahti >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: houcro@proaxis.com, > "birchbark@sprintmail.com" >Subject: I'm Back! >References: <3.0.5.32.19981127190902.007e97b0@proaxis.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Tom, Mike, et,al. > >Got back about non on Sat. Dead tired and with 1400+ messages on this >machine! >Louie and I got a shot at a big cow Elk two sundays back and while I >was >reloading, he ran ahead and using his swivel .62 flinter shot at her >again. He >apparently hit her and we found blood. The first shot we took at the >same >moment but it was a long way out and I was using 90 gr. I don't think >we hit >her. His second shot brought blood but not much and by the time she >went to the >top of the hill, she got into so many other tracks that we couldn't >pick her >out. We looked for quit a while and then ran into Cliff Nole and >another friend >and went on. It rained most every day with a couple of days of light >snow that >didn't stick well. I had a Honda 4 wheeler to ride out on each day if >I wanted. >We would get up at 0530 and hunt until 10, then come back to camp and >have >breakfast. We went out again until dark. I usually was in bed by 2000. >Louie go >a white tail doe about a week into the hunt and got another shot at a >cow in a >group of several but again no blood just a tuft of hair and 2 hours of >trying >to figure which set of tracks were hers. > >I came back to Lewiston the night before Thanks Giving and we had >dinner with >his friends and family at his daughter Brandy's house and then went >back up on >the mountain that night. We covered a lot of country in the next few >days and >Louie took Mo. through Wed. this week off to stay with me a few more >days but >had to go down Wed. It rained all day Wed so hard that we didn't go >out. Two of >his buddies and new friends of mine, Jerry and his dad and mom, Bill >and Noreen >stayed up but were gona have to leave Thursday. I figured I'd stay as >long as >there was some one in camp to help if I got lucky. Over the two weeks >I got >real close to several white tail and got the shit scared out of me by >grouse >going ballistic at my feet a number of times. There were several moose >in the >area we hunted and I walked by them at close range several times. I >saw a few >elk from time to time but they never presented me with anything but >long canyon >shots or just legs. One day I was walking just off the trail looking >for a >place to dump and found a nice private copus of trees. I was just >about ready >to lean my gun up when the elk that I had just walked by at about 10' >decided >to leave. I saw 3 1/2 legs go through the brush about 20' away and >aimed at the >next opening. It never came by and must have turned just enough to >miss that >one spot I could have shot. > >On Thursday we went up the mountain behind camp with Jerry in the >little valley >and Bill and I up on the ridge. I walked out a skid road on Jerry's >side of the >ridge and about a mile into the walk passed a white tail at 20'. She >moved and >I turned at the sound. I saw her as she went up the hill but just long >enough >to know I wasn't seeing elk. I walked out to the end of the skid road >and >crossed back over the ridge and went back down the road Bill and I had >come up >until I came to an old logging road that went off to the east about >half way to >camp. I walked up it until I came to the end and not seeing any fresh >tracks >came back down to the next spur going east and started around that >road as it >went around another little ridge. > >As it came out on the next draw, the ground opened up on a large old >log deck >with a nice little meadow beyond. I slowly walked over to the edge of >the >grassed over log deck and as I came to the edge I heard a limb break >on the far >side. I froze where I was and within moments a big cow elk walked out >of the >"Christmas Trees" and stood sideways to me. I found out later that it >was 112 >long paces from where I was to where her tracks were at that moment. I >figured >I didn't have much time so I raised up the .62 flinter from "Chambers" >off hand >and picked a sight hold about a foot down from the back and just >behind the >shoulder and squeezed off my shot. In two weeks of rain and in about a >half >dozen shots to re-clean the gun, This rifle never failed to go off and >with >almost instantaneous ignition. She didn't fail me this time and with a >gentle >squeeze the ball was on its way. > >The smoke cleared quickly and I saw her walk off to the right. I >reloaded and >watched an elk go straight up the hill opposite and disappear. I >walked slowly >to where my target had been standing and found her tracks. I thought I >heard a >quiet bark from above as elk will do to relocate each other. The >tracks went >right for a few feet and then turned up the hill and to the left as >they >entered the "Christmas Trees". NO blood and no hair! At the first >couple of fir >trees at shoulder height to me I saw what I was hoping for, blood on >both >limbs. I mumbled a little something to the Great One that this not >turn out bad >and started up the blood trail. The hill quickly became almost >vertical and as >I followed the trail it was necessary to pull myself up by grabbing >tree limbs >and trunks. I think that hill must have been at something like 70+ >degrees of >slope! About 50' into the climb I looked up through an opening and >there she >was, sideways to the hill and wedged against a 10" pine with legs >tucked under >the body. Thank You! says I. I took care of opening up the body cavity >and by >that time it was way too late to do anything but get to camp. > >We went in Friday about noon and got the meat out of the woods and >back to >camp. I paced off the shot and wished I could have gotten closer. The >.60 round >ball went in right where I was holding, busted a rib, took out both >lungs, and >going through another rib on the opposite side went into the hill. I >got a >garage full of meat to cut and wrap and Terri is back from church to >help so >will close for now. > >Talk at you both later, > >Your buddy Rog' > > > > > >--------------02F7F610847AB2FC1E35551C-- > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan Replica Clothing Notebook Date: 08 Dec 1998 02:48:26 -0600 >Hello All! >. . . just one more thought, this might be a good time, before we >get too far along, to suggest starting a notebook on the MtMan >replica clothing techniques that we will be covering. It is a good >way to organize your information, adding samples and photographs, >and a good reference when you teach younger boys and others later I'll spend my money on good Whiskey,but when it comes to clothes available at 'vos and through the traders,etc. I'll stumble along making my own any day! Got a suitable notebook and am ready to learn! Thanks for lesson #1 on rolled hems,its already printed and waiting for more! Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well I didn't think orange went with purple until I saw the sunset last night Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: I'm Back!] Date: 08 Dec 1998 08:53:51 -0800 Michael, Thanks Hawk, and congratulations on a successful hunt. Any hunt where you get out and have a good time like we did is a success but it is sure nice when you make meat too. Hope the rest of your winter goes as well. From here, I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "L. A. Romsa" Subject: MtMan-List: Harper's Ferry 1851 Date: 08 Dec 1998 11:36:15 -0700 Howdy all, My boss showed me a caplock he has. It looks in good shape. I didn't have = my specticals so I couldn't read what was on the barrel, but he told me it = read Harper's Ferry 1851. It looks like a smooth bore or shotgun. It had = one band and is a halfstock, with no rear sight. Can anyone tell me = anything about this with the little info I have? I have "surfed the net" some, but with no success. Thanks abunch!=20 BrokenJaw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Date: 08 Dec 1998 07:51:38 -0800 Try...."pinchon" or "pincheon"???? ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Date: 08 Dec 1998 20:13:59 -0600 John I think that is the critter!!! That is the good news. The bad news is = that the 1828 Dictionary didn't list the thing. Waugh!! Thanks Lanney -----Original Message----- >Try...."pinchon" or "pincheon"???? > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at = http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fabrics 1 Date: 09 Dec 1998 10:30:25 EST Hello Everyone, During my research, I have noticed slight inconsistencies in some of the information regarding authentic clothing construction techniques, for example, use of french seams, and other things. A lot of the reason for the confusion, I believe, is when a particular statement is made it often applies to just one small isolated region and is incorrectly assumed to be much more widespread. If you notice an error or have anything to add to what is being said, PLEASE let us all know. I, for one, am most anxious to learn the real facts from all of you. I will post my information on fabrics in two posts as it is rather long and might not work in one post. At the end I have a few questions for you. I hope this information is useful. I think this might be a good time to explain that my main focus regarding sewing is the enjoyment of the crafting process and satisfaction in the finished product. There are numerous methods for building and constructing things, including clothing, and I am very interested in the sewing/engineering techniques you have invented along the way regarding your sewing experiences. I am sure there are a lot of neat things I can learn from all of you and I am interested in hearing all about the way you do things. FABRICS In the interests of "getting on things" we will fast forward to fabric options. We will cover techniques and design and sewing considerations as we encounter them along the way. In older times clothes were not cut but folded and seamed--no cutting was involved. Clothing designs emulated the width of local looms. The original homespun cloth was typically woven approximately 28 inches in width. The finished shirt after seaming would measure approximately 50 inches around. The selvages were utilized in the seaming which conveniently addressed the question of dealing with raveling seam (raw) edges. The rectangle shirt offered an efficient system for utilizing the hand woven fabric which resulted in a very practical, sturdy shirt for everyday wear. I have located a good source for ordering historical homespun fabric for your rectangle shirt if you are looking for, or close to, the real McCoy. The information as follows: Burnley and Townbridge Co. Angela Burnley, VP Phone: 757-253-1644 Fax: 757-253-9120 e-mail: jasburn@aol.com address: 108 Druid Drive Williamsburg, Virginia 23185 *****Retail mail order company specializing in historic fabrics of the 17th , 18th, and early 19th century for historic costumes and reenactors. Large selection of wool, linen/cotton mixes, as well as all related items for clothing construction. Catalog with swatches available for $4.00. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Harper's Ferry 1851 Date: 09 Dec 1998 10:37:08 -0500 BROKEN JAW the lock plate will be marked if it's a harpers ferry and there will be a eagle on the plate hard to miss if not then it's not a harpers ferry. you need to look it over again and then I will direct you to where you might find information about it. one of the guys on the list sent me some info on harpers ferry rifle out of a military reference book that was quite good. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:36:15 -0700 "L. A. Romsa" writes: >Howdy all, > My boss showed me a caplock he has. It looks in good shape. I didn't >have = >my specticals so I couldn't read what was on the barrel, but he told >me it = >read Harper's Ferry 1851. It looks like a smooth bore or shotgun. It >had = >one band and is a halfstock, with no rear sight. Can anyone tell me = >anything about this with the little info I have? >I have "surfed the net" some, but with no success. >Thanks abunch!=20 > >BrokenJaw > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 09 Dec 1998 10:42:40 EST Here is my second and final post on fabrics: =09For your first rectangle shirt, you may want to work with common fabric= s readily available today and at reasonable cost. Among the choices are bleached and unbleached muslin. If you call around to your local fabric stores you might be able to locate some muslin in 36 inch widths which mea= ns that you have the option of making your garment utilizing the selvages in = the seams (no seam finishing necessary!). Otherwise, muslin is commonly avail= able in 45 inch and sometimes 60 inch widths. =09Possibly closest to original homespun in a modern-day fabric is Osnabur= g cloth which should be located along with the muslins at your fabric tradin= g post. Osnaburg is a coarse cotton cloth often made with part waste in it, plain weave, medium to heavy in weight and resembling crash (are you still with me?) "Crash" is a coarse fabric having a rough irregular surface obta= ined by weaving thick and uneven yarns. Back to Osnaburg=97it is sometimes use= d unbleached for cement, grain and comparable types of containers. Personal= ly, I like the rural, pastoral look of Osnaburg but I prefer to not wear it ne= xt to my skin. =09It is important that you pre wash your yardage exactly as you intend to launder your finished garment. Your yardage will likely shrink pretty extensively with the first few washings. At least, run it through one complete laundering cycle before cutting out and sewing your garment. It i= s a good idea to purchase some extra fabric to allow for pre wash shrinkage. =09I always purchase more fabric than I need for a project. So if you wan= t too much fabric I suggest you purchase at least 5 yards or more. The fabrics types we are discussing (above mention) can shrink a surprising amount in = the length of the goods. =09Here is something I came across in my research and I thought you might = be interested: "Nail" was an archaic unit of measure representing 1/16th of a yard of fabric (2 and =BC inches). It is the exact length of a metal nail= used in building=97equivalent to the present-day 7d nail? The term "nail" was commonly used as opposed to inches. As I am thinking about it, nails were hand forged by a blacksmith=97would that be correct? Please let me know. Thanks. =09I have a couple of questions I hope someone can answer: If I wear, say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would be required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress (individually)? Can someone please direct me to the best source of braintan? What is the best means of cleaning braintan leather without ruining the texture? Is braintan purchased by the individual skin or other? =09Next time I will show you how to draft your own shirt pattern. Bye for= now. Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company Amoore2120@aol.com =09 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Date: 09 Dec 1998 12:40:48 -0600 'Pinchon' or 'pincheon' might have been French word or slang. But the closest my tourist French-English dictionary has is pincon (where the c has the curl under it) which is a bruise or mark (damaged plew?) or pince which can mean lobster or crawfish claw. Iron Burner Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > I think that is the critter!!! That is the good news. The bad news is that the 1828 Dictionary didn't list the thing. Waugh!! > -----Original Message----- > From: John C Funk > > >Try...."pinchon" or "pincheon"???? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 09 Dec 1998 12:41:02 -0600 Andrea, Nail was derived as a unit of measure based on the length of the forefinger from the first knuckle to the end of the finger including the "nail". =20 A pretty handy unit for a seamstress or tailor to work with. John... At 10:42 AM 12/9/98 -0500, you wrote: >Here is my second and final post on fabrics: > > For your first rectangle shirt, you may want to work with common fabrics >readily available today and at reasonable cost.=A0 Among the choices are >bleached and unbleached muslin.=A0 If you call around to your local fabric >stores you might be able to locate some muslin in 36 inch widths which= means >that you have the option of making your garment utilizing the selvages in= the >seams (no seam finishing necessary!).=A0 Otherwise, muslin is commonly available >in 45 inch and sometimes 60 inch widths.=A0=20 > > Possibly closest to original homespun in a modern-day fabric is Osnaburg >cloth which should be located along with the muslins at your fabric trading >post.=A0 Osnaburg is a coarse cotton cloth often made with part waste in= it, >plain weave, medium to heavy in weight and resembling crash (are you still >with me?) "Crash" is a coarse fabric having a rough irregular surface obtained >by weaving thick and uneven yarns.=A0 Back to Osnaburg=97it is sometimes= used >unbleached for cement, grain and comparable types of containers.=A0= Personally, >I like the rural, pastoral look of Osnaburg but I prefer to not wear it= next >to my skin. > > It is important that you pre wash your yardage exactly as you intend to >launder your finished garment.=A0 Your yardage will likely shrink pretty >extensively with the first few washings.=A0 At least, run it through one >complete laundering cycle before cutting out and sewing your garment. It is= a >good idea to purchase some extra fabric to allow for pre wash shrinkage. > > I always purchase more fabric than I need for a project.=A0 So if you want= too >much fabric I suggest you purchase at least 5 yards or more.=A0 The fabrics >types we are discussing (above mention) can shrink a surprising amount in= the >length of the goods. > > Here is something I came across in my research and I thought you might be >interested: "Nail" was an archaic unit of measure representing 1/16th of a >yard of fabric (2 and =BC inches).=A0 It is the exact length of a metal= nail used >in building=97equivalent to the present-day 7d nail?=A0 The term "nail" was >commonly used as opposed to inches.=A0 As I am thinking about it, nails= were >hand forged by a blacksmith=97would that be correct?=A0 Please let me know. >Thanks. > > I have a couple of questions I hope someone can answer: > >If I wear, say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would be >required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress (individually)? > >Can someone please direct me to the best source of braintan? > >What is the best means of cleaning braintan leather without ruining the >texture? > >Is braintan purchased by the individual skin or other?=20 > > Next time I will show you how to draft your own shirt pattern.=A0 Bye for= now. > >Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer=A0=A0 Sewing Design Company >Amoore2120@aol.com=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 > >=20 >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gbosen@juno.com (Greg N Bosen Bosen) Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo jacket Date: 09 Dec 1998 13:45:19 EST i have a buffalo hide that i'd like to make into a jacket. do any of you have a pattern or a sorce of one? ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 09 Dec 1998 11:08:45 -0800 > Andrea, I used two brain tanned deer hides to make my wife's Plains Indian dress. She is a 6 or 8. One for the front and one for the back. Some dress patterns call for a third hide across the shoulders. I think you could get a nice short vest from one large hide if you cut carefully. The jacket will take close to three or four hides, the sleeves eat hides like a pack of neighborhood dogs! If you are interested in purchasing hides, my friend and AMM brother Mike Rider makes up some of the nicest hides I've ever seen and I will give you his address off line if you contact me. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > If I wear, say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would be > required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress (individually)? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 09 Dec 1998 12:39:10 -0700 Here are some answers to Andrea's questions on braintan.... Question: Can someone please direct me to the best source of braintan? Response: There is a list of over 40 brain tanners who sell finished skins at www.braintan.com/resources/directory2.html. In my opinion the folks tanning the very nicest brain tan are Doug Crist (Montana), Steven Edholm & Tamara Wilder (California), Mac Maness (North Carolina) and ourselves (Montana). (We are all equivalent in quality and prices). This is not to say that this group is the best, just the best that I have seen. The general quality level of braintan has been going steadily upwards in the last five years. I am very familiar with nearly all brain tanners in the West. Back east, I don't know them all. You can view our page on buying our braintan at www.braintan.com/intro/buying.html Question: What is the best means of cleaning braintan leather without ruining the texture? Response: Treat braintan like wool. Wash with natural soft soaps as they won't strip the oils like detergents do (Ivory, Fels Naptha, White King or home-made soaps are all good), and don't machine dry. If you machine dry all the way until its dry, it will shrink considerably in the final stages (much like wool)...your beautiful dress will then fit your 10 yr old far better than yourself. Air dry your braintan the same way you do any clothes. Ideally you work the hide a little bit in the final stages of drying. If you don't the braintan dries a bit stiff like starched underwear, and then you just manipulate it a bit to get it back to normal. (its really easy) At this stage, your braintan will be basically soft as before, though the surface a tad scratchier. To get the surface velvety soft again, rub lightly with a piece of pumice or something similar. One of the great things about brain tan is how well it takes washing. It doesn't break down the leather at all. My work breeches have been washed over 100 times in a washing machine and are as soft as the day I made them. One last washing tip is this. If the hides are well tanned, ie quite soft from the get-go, they wash and soften up easily. If they are marginally tanned, meaning the tanner worked their butts off to get it soft enough to sell (but wasn't really brained well), they will always be a hassle to soften. So when you get hides, make sure they are thoroughly soft to begin with. Question: Is braintan purchased by the individual skin or other? Response: Every tanner I know sells by the skin. It is not practical to cut up skins to sell parts of skins....though you will find folks who sometimes conveniently have a scrap that is just the right size for what you want, and will sell that to you. Question: If I wear, say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would be required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress (individually)? Response: For a size 10, it generally takes two hides for a vest, four for a fringed jacket (fringe takes a lot), and two large hides for a dress. You may find it interesting to check out the photo's of some of what Michelle (my wife) custom makes, at www.braintan.com/buckskindesigns/toc.html . There are photos of a jacket, vest, two dresses, and various satchels and pouches. There is also detail shots of stitching and other decorative touches. There is also a lot of detail on the ins and outs of working with and washing braintan in the book 'Deerskins into Buckskins' (about 40 pages of it is on this) by Matt Richards, and Wetscrape Braintanned Buckskin by Steven Edholm and Tamara Wilder. You can see more on these books at www.braintan.com/intro/recommended.html Hope this helps, Matt Richards www.braintan.com 2755 Sinclair Creek Rd Eureka MT 59917 406-889-5532 Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books and class schedules. -----Original Message----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 09 Dec 1998 12:50:34 -0700 This is a P.S. to the previous list of brain tanners I recommend. Here is a list of other tanners who sell, who I would describe as tanning plenty good buckskin (where as the previous list was the primo folks) include: Molly Miller, Michael 'Dirty Shirt' Ryder, Jim Miller, Charlie Trujillo, Jim Riggs, David 'Sheom' Rose, Tom Orr. Some folks who I assume also do good work, but I've never seen their hides are: Larry Belitz, and the Dinsmores. And again, this is just from folks' whose buckskin I am familar with, and based on the last couple times I checked out their hides...things do change. Matt Richards www.braintan.com 2755 Sinclair Creek Rd Eureka MT 59917 406-889-5532 Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books and class schedules. -----Original Message----- Here is my second and final post on fabrics: For your first rectangle shirt, you may want to work with common fabrics readily available today and at reasonable cost. Among the choices are bleached and unbleached muslin. If you call around to your local fabric stores you might be able to locate some muslin in 36 inch widths which means that you have the option of making your garment utilizing the selvages in the seams (no seam finishing necessary!). Otherwise, muslin is commonly available in 45 inch and sometimes 60 inch widths. Possibly closest to original homespun in a modern-day fabric is Osnaburg cloth which should be located along with the muslins at your fabric trading post. Osnaburg is a coarse cotton cloth often made with part waste in it, plain weave, medium to heavy in weight and resembling crash (are you still with me?) "Crash" is a coarse fabric having a rough irregular surface obtained by weaving thick and uneven yarns. Back to Osnaburg—it is sometimes used unbleached for cement, grain and comparable types of containers. Personally, I like the rural, pastoral look of Osnaburg but I prefer to not wear it next to my skin. It is important that you pre wash your yardage exactly as you intend to launder your finished garment. Your yardage will likely shrink pretty extensively with the first few washings. At least, run it through one complete laundering cycle before cutting out and sewing your garment. It is a good idea to purchase some extra fabric to allow for pre wash shrinkage. I always purchase more fabric than I need for a project. So if you want too much fabric I suggest you purchase at least 5 yards or more. The fabrics types we are discussing (above mention) can shrink a surprising amount in the length of the goods. Here is something I came across in my research and I thought you might be interested: "Nail" was an archaic unit of measure representing 1/16th of a yard of fabric (2 and ¼ inches). It is the exact length of a metal nail used in building—equivalent to the present-day 7d nail? The term "nail" was commonly used as opposed to inches. As I am thinking about it, nails were hand forged by a blacksmith—would that be correct? Please let me know. Thanks. I have a couple of questions I hope someone can answer: If I wear, say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would be required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress (individually)? Can someone please direct me to the best source of braintan? What is the best means of cleaning braintan leather without ruining the texture? Is braintan purchased by the individual skin or other? Next time I will show you how to draft your own shirt pattern. Bye for now. Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company Amoore2120@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo jacket Date: 09 Dec 1998 12:55:31 -0700 I'd also be interested in knowing of any patterns or pattern sources for buffalo hide jackets. Matt Richards www.braintan.com 2755 Sinclair Creek Rd Eureka MT 59917 406-889-5532 Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books and class schedules. -----Original Message----- >i have a buffalo hide that i'd like to make into a jacket. do any of you >have a pattern or a sorce of one? > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Date: 09 Dec 1998 14:51:42 -0600 That useage would fit the context of the original note. A damaged plew = might have some value, but not as much a perfect one and would be listed = separately. Does that make sense to anyone else? Lanney -----Original Message----- >'Pinchon' or 'pincheon' might have been French word or slang. But the >closest my tourist French-English dictionary has is >pincon (where the c has the curl under it) which is a bruise or mark >(damaged plew?) or >pince which can mean lobster or crawfish claw. > >Iron Burner > >Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > >> I think that is the critter!!! That is the good news. The bad news = is that the 1828 Dictionary didn't list the thing. Waugh!! > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John C Funk >>=20 >> >Try...."pinchon" or "pincheon"???? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo jacket Date: 09 Dec 1998 18:40:53 -0500 Greg N Bosen Bosen wrote: > > i have a buffalo hide that i'd like to make into a jacket. do any of you > have a pattern or a sorce of one? I don't sorry, but check with Bob at Thunder Ridge MZ here on the list. If he doesn't have one, then check with Track Of The Wolf. Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas W. Roberts" Subject: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 09 Dec 1998 21:13:30 -0800 Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique to bring the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to 1800 grit and it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for an appropriate stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this thing and don't want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's only horn, wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow grease. Thanks! Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 09 Dec 1998 21:40:20 -0500 Tom, Why the worry?? I finished my buff horn scraping with a piece of glass, no need to burnish, then just rubbed, and rubbed and rubbed beeswax into it.. Turned out beautiful.. Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique >to bring >the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to >1800 grit and >it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for >an appropriate >stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this >thing and don't >want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's >only horn, >wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow >grease. > >Thanks! > >Tom > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Announcement Date: 09 Dec 1998 20:41:01 -0600 Washtahay- As I discussed about 18 months ago, I have begun making drawings and construction notes on items from my small personal collection of original accoutremounts. Drawings and notes completed to date include several powder measures, and full size patterns and notes for two different hunting pouches. Please inquire directly of me for particulars. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Announcement Date: 09 Dec 1998 20:25:41 -0700 Longwalker, I'd like to learn more about your hunting pouch patterns.... Matt Richards www.braintan.com 2755 Sinclair Creek Rd Eureka MT 59917 406-889-5532 Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books and class schedules. -----Original Message----- >Washtahay- > As I discussed about 18 months ago, I have begun making drawings and >construction notes on items from my small personal collection of original >accoutremounts. Drawings and notes completed to date include several >powder measures, and full size patterns and notes for two different hunting >pouches. > Please inquire directly of me for particulars. >LongWalker c. du B. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 09 Dec 1998 22:30:14 -0500 "Thomas W. Roberts" wrote: > > Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique > to bring > the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to > 1800 grit and > it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for > an appropriate > stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this > thing and don't > want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's > only horn, > wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow > grease. I'd seal the horn with a couple of coats of tongue oil, then wax it and buff. The maple plug looks good with a boiled hull black walnut stain, then tongue oil to seal. Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's din some! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 09 Dec 1998 22:33:23 -0600 Thomas, It depends on what kind of finish you want on your horn. I personally like to start off with a dull finish on a horn, because it will take on a shine with age and wear. On the other hand if you want start off with a slick shiney finish you might try using some Tru-oil on it. It will give you a real slick finish, but beware when it is finished and you take it out for the first time that is as good as it will ever look. It is like using some of these poly-base finishes on gun stocks. They look great when they are new, but it is down hill from there. I have a buffalo horn that I am very proud of. I scaped it down smooth, then used steel wool to burnish it out. I took it out to 0000 steel wool. Then rubbed beeswax all over it, and finally rubbed it down with burlap. Initially it was pretty dull looking but as time has gone by it has taken on a really nice natural shine. You just have to make a decision as to what direction you want to go. Pendleton ---------- > From: Thomas W. Roberts > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Horn > Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:13 PM > > Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique > to bring > the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to > 1800 grit and > it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for > an appropriate > stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this > thing and don't > want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's > only horn, > wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow > grease. > > Thanks! > > Tom > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 09 Dec 1998 22:45:13 -0600 I forgot to mention the stain on the butt plug. I don't know if I would use a nitric acid stain on a horn, but I'll tell you what will work real nice. Take a plug of chewing tobacco and tear it up into a pint jar. Then fill the jar with household ammonia. Put a lid on it and forget about it for a couple of weeks. This makes a fine stain for maple. Pendleton ---------- > From: yellow rose/pendleton > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn > Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:33 PM > > Thomas, > It depends on what kind of finish you want on your horn. I personally > like to start off with a dull finish on a horn, because it will take on a > shine with age and wear. On the other hand if you want start off with a > slick shiney finish you might try using some Tru-oil on it. It will give > you a real slick finish, but beware when it is finished and you take it out > for the first time that is as good as it will ever look. It is like using > some of these poly-base finishes on gun stocks. They look great when they > are new, but it is down hill from there. I have a buffalo horn that I am > very proud of. I scaped it down smooth, then used steel wool to burnish it > out. I took it out to 0000 steel wool. Then rubbed beeswax all over it, and > finally rubbed it down with burlap. Initially it was pretty dull looking > but as time has gone by it has taken on a really nice natural shine. You > just have to make a decision as to what direction you want to go. > Pendleton > > ---------- > > From: Thomas W. Roberts > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: MtMan-List: Horn > > Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:13 PM > > > > Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique > > to bring > > the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to > > 1800 grit and > > it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for > > an appropriate > > stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this > > thing and don't > > want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's > > only horn, > > wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow > > grease. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Tom > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 09 Dec 1998 21:59:08 -0600 Dang right, Thomas. Larry 's horn is prime....he should be proud. It's = even more handsome than a Tandy kit.=20 Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >Thomas, > It depends on what kind of finish you want on your horn. I personally >like to start off with a dull finish on a horn, because it will take on = a >shine with age and wear. On the other hand if you want start off with a >slick shiney finish you might try using some Tru-oil on it. It will = give >you a real slick finish, but beware when it is finished and you take it = out >for the first time that is as good as it will ever look. It is like = using >some of these poly-base finishes on gun stocks. They look great when = they >are new, but it is down hill from there. I have a buffalo horn that I = am >very proud of. I scaped it down smooth, then used steel wool to burnish = it >out. I took it out to 0000 steel wool. Then rubbed beeswax all over it, = and >finally rubbed it down with burlap. Initially it was pretty dull = looking >but as time has gone by it has taken on a really nice natural shine. = You >just have to make a decision as to what direction you want to go. >Pendleton > >---------- >> From: Thomas W. Roberts >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: MtMan-List: Horn >> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:13 PM >>=20 >> Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate = technique >> to bring >> the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up = to >> 1800 grit and >> it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking = for >> an appropriate >> stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this >> thing and don't >> want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, = it's >> only horn, >> wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of = elbow >> grease. >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> Tom >>=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 09 Dec 1998 23:09:46 -0500 Larry, Ammonia?? I'll be damned..I have alwys just used the juice outta my can I keep in the shop for the purpose, then mix it with warm linseed...I will have to try the ammonia..What does it do? Make it richer?? Deeper?? Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >I forgot to mention the stain on the butt plug. I don't know if I would use >a nitric acid stain on a horn, but I'll tell you what will work real nice. >Take a plug of chewing tobacco and tear it up into a pint jar. Then fill >the jar with household ammonia. Put a lid on it and forget about it for a >couple of weeks. This makes a fine stain for maple. >Pendleton > >-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 09 Dec 1998 23:21:43 -0500 Dennis Miles wrote: > > Larry, > Ammonia?? I'll be damned..I have alwys just used the juice outta my can I > keep in the shop for the purpose, then mix it with warm linseed...I will > have to try the ammonia..What does it do? Make it richer?? Deeper?? Ammonia can cause problems if you finish the wood...DON'T use it! Warm "boiled" linseed poured over chewing 'backy will produce a fine stain that will penetrate well into the wood, as will a black walnut hull stain. You make the later with as little water as possible, strain it well, then boil it till it's BLACK. You then can cut it with water, alcohol, turp, etc. for application. Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo jacket Date: 03 Oct 1998 08:45:52 -0500 David Montgomery's book "Mountainman Crafts and Skills" has patterns for coats. They are easy to follow and very basic in instruction. Check Horizon Publishers in Bountiful, Utah. LOC catalog# 80-82706. Chases Hawks Greg N Bosen Bosen wrote: > i have a buffalo hide that i'd like to make into a jacket. do any of you > have a pattern or a sorce of one? > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo coat Date: 03 Oct 1998 08:55:35 -0500 Another source for coat construction would be "Dress and Equipage of the Mountain Man" by Jeff Hengesbaugh and Wes Housler. They can be reached @ Rocky Mtn. College Productions 22 Bell Canyon Rd. Cloudcroft, NM 88317 Chases Hawks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 03 Oct 1998 09:00:16 -0500 Tom, I used a couple of coats of automotive wax on my buffler horn to bring out a shine and walnut hulls for a brown dye/stain on my plug. The type of wax might not be true for the time, but the stain shure is! Thomas W. Roberts wrote: > Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique > to bring > the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to > 1800 grit and > it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for > an appropriate > stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this > thing and don't > want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's > only horn, > wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow > grease. > > Thanks! > > Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 09 Dec 1998 21:53:43 -0700 Just get a piece of wood and rub the horn with it. Be surprised how it will shine up. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Thomas W. Roberts wrote: >Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique >to bring >the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to >1800 grit and >it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for >an appropriate >stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this >thing and don't >want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's >only horn, >wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow >grease. > >Thanks! > >Tom > > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP > (SMTPD32-4.03) id AD5A26A0138; Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:09:30 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.04 #1) > id 0znvUS-0006xt-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:06:04 -0700 >Received: from [209.26.2.66] (helo=gdi4.gdi.net ident=root) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.04 #1) > id 0znvUP-0006xM-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:06:01 -0700 >Received: from gdi.net (luc4-06.gdi.net [209.26.119.71]) by gdi4.gdi.net >(8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA25631 for ; Wed, 9 Dec >1998 21:08:10 -0500 >Message-ID: <366F5879.D96D9279@gdi.net> >Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 21:13:30 -0800 >From: "Thomas W. Roberts" >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win16; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" >Subject: MtMan-List: Horn >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 909624806 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Philip C. Rogers, Jr." Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 09 Dec 1998 23:10:33 -0600 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE23C9.1FD257F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas W. Roberts wrote: > Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique > to bring > the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to > 1800 grit and > it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for > an appropriate > stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this > thing and don't > want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's > only horn, > wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow > grease. > > Thanks! > > Tom Along those same lines, could someone point me to someone who has the raw buffalo horns for sale?? Phil Rogers ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE23C9.1FD257F0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiIFAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYA6AEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAVwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0 cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AU01UUABoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAAAeAAIwAQAA AAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAA AwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHwAAACdoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29t JwAAAgELMAEAAAAiAAAAU01UUDpISVNUX1RFWFRATElTVFMuWE1JU1NJT04uQ09NAAAAAwAAOQAA AAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAAAgH3 XwEAAABXAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAAaGlzdF90ZXh0QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9u LmNvbQBTTVRQAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAMA/V8BAAAAAwD/XwAAAAAC AfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACoXQBBIABABUAAABSRTogTXRNYW4tTGlzdDogSG9ybgCIBgEFgAMADgAA AM4HDAAJABcACgAhAAMALwEBIIADAA4AAADOBwwACQAXAAgAJQADADEBAQmAAQAhAAAARjM3MDg3 MDVENzhGRDIxMTg2QzUwMEEwQzk4NkM3RTAAFQcBA5AGAPQFAAAiAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAA AAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AJBRsmn7I74BHgBwAAEAAAAVAAAA UkU6IE10TWFuLUxpc3Q6IEhvcm4AAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb4j+2mvBYdw9I/XEdKGxQCgyYbH 4AAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABQAAABwY3JvZ2Vyc0B0aWNuZXQuY29tAAMA BhAccBgsAwAHEPsBAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABUSE9NQVNXUk9CRVJUU1dST1RFOk9LQVksV0hPV09V TERCRVNPS0lOREFTVE9BRFZJU0VNRU9OQU5BUFBST1BSSUFURVRFQ0hOSVFVRVRPQlJJTkdUSEVM VVNUUkVPTkFCVUZGAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAxgIAAMICAADRAwAATFpGdXSBA9t3AAoBAwH3IAKkA+MC AGOCaArAc2V0MCAHE00CgH0KgAjIIDsJbzLMNTUCgAqBdWMAUAsDBmMAQQtgbmcxMDN+MwunCrEK gROAFLEDYHQzBZAFQFRoA3EEIFcuVQfxYgSQdAQgdxWCOgMUxRTTPiBPa2F5HiwXABYAFwAIYGxk IOkWsCBzGNBrC4AZMBYx4nQY0GFkdgQAGWAHgO4gAiAZ8BsRcBVxFXAHMNcVoBogBZBoAwBxClAX 1t0aMWIFEBPgHLdoGWAKQNxzdAlwGvMZQHUBIAdA0RjQcG93BIEgFgAEoCEWcCBJJ3YZYHJ19mIW sBkwaQVAB0ADIB4yYncYcCB1cBohF9Yx/DgwD+AJwCFSGdAX1iFQgicEIHNsaWNrH/GjHjADkWVs axlwbhWQ/xiQHzAFQB6QAxADIByAIVCVGWBkGRBsIGFBbBmASxiQIJBtHmBvbxmxZ/ogAhByF9Yb PBfWHpALcf0aImQKwCTwHvIAwAtQGWBnJiEFQAtQdWcgYSCEZ88VkB8BCQAFQG9mIBEIcPsEICry aAQAHbgociOxJxD5AiAndBfWIgACMBoiBPH3B9EhUSJBYiIhAJAogSHD/wNgKIEHgB4wBHAa8AXA AMC3FaAHIiBhUxjQH2ByGJC3JGIX1gIgbCIgICIsMHcdKEBkJgEJ4APgYXgg/igWMR8QD7AHQB/x GLAEkL8ZYCySL9MgIhrBD8ApGJC/L+ItwSSBLgElgAbgdxfW8wnBFjBlLhfVF9YV8ABw+GtzITyO A3AXehNzFXWXD+EJADKTbxqhc2Ea0f0kwG4HkBiQBaAZEhmAB4D7AiA5AW8LgAVAGtExQkKVnxiy D4AaER5BFMRyYQfgPx82ICIEICixQVEsED8/u0T1FMRQLtADIAgAZwSQLw9AFTkUxBBxAEoAAAAD ABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAHgBCEAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAMAgBD/////QAAHMBDSziT7I74BQAAIMBDS ziT7I74BCwAAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAADAAKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAAB0EAAAAwAJgAggBgAAAAAA wAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAAYUAAAAAAAAeABKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAUAAAA4 LjAyAAAAAAsAFoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAXgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAA AEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADABmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4AKIAIIAYAAAAA AMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeACmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAA AQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAqgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4APQAB AAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AACiSw== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE23C9.1FD257F0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 10 Dec 1998 00:38:55 EST In a message dated 98-12-09 10:59:11 EST, you write: << As I am thinking about it, nails were hand forged by a blacksmith—would that be correct? Please let me know. Thanks. >> Blacksmiths made some of the nails, but they were more commonly made by "nailers". Many nailers were women & children who made nails for spending money. Many home hearths were devised with small forge areas which were fed with coals from the cook fire & "fanned" with a small bellows. About the only special tooling needed for nail production were the "headers" which were simply moulds or in proper terms, "swages" used to keep the head shape & size of a specific nail size uniform. Some nailers got quite creative in decorating the heads of their nails with the use of smaller hammers & punches. This info was gleaned from several old issures of ABANA's (Artist-Blacksmith's Association of North America) magazine: "The Anvil's Ring" & NWBA's (North West Blacksmith's Association) magazine "Hot Iron News". NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Announcement Date: 10 Dec 1998 00:42:58 -0500 Aye... me too.... Addison Miller -----Original Message----- >Longwalker, >I'd like to learn more about your hunting pouch patterns.... > >Matt Richards >www.braintan.com >2755 Sinclair Creek Rd >Eureka MT 59917 >406-889-5532 > >Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning >and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books >and class schedules. >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Colburn >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 1:08 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Announcement > > >>Washtahay- >> As I discussed about 18 months ago, I have begun making drawings and >>construction notes on items from my small personal collection of original >>accoutremounts. Drawings and notes completed to date include several >>powder measures, and full size patterns and notes for two different hunting >>pouches. >> Please inquire directly of me for particulars. >>LongWalker c. du B. >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Date: 10 Dec 1998 10:04:48 EST In a message dated 12/9/98 9:41:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, NaugaMok@aol.com writes: << Blacksmiths made some of the nails, but they were more commonly made by "nailers". Many nailers were women & children who made nails for spending money. >> What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's manufactured nails? I remember that it was common to see people collect and save nails after pulling them out of old lumber. Later, in their spare time, people would straighten the nails by hammering against an anvil or other hard surface in the hopes to reuse them. I know that many a nail had seen several projects. After a garment was completely worn out and no longer serviceable, the sewing thread was oftentimes carefully removed from the seam lines and wound on a spool for reuse, any fabric which could be selvaged was saved for quilts. I do not know if this was because thread was scarce or if it was money that was in short supply. Like nails, I imagine sewing thread frequently saw more than one project. Odd-color thread was frequently used in home sewn clothing, often with the use of several different colors to finish the length of a seam line in order to make use of every scrap of thread. Best regards, Andrea Moore ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo horn Date: 10 Dec 1998 08:45:11 +0100 I agree with those who have suggested some kind of wax to bring out the luster in buffalo horn. In my experience no amount of polishing will make it "shine" (but then I'm pretty impatient, too.) Floor or furniture wax works, as do such things as bear grease and neatsfoot. When I'm making a buffalo horn spoon, I use a little bit of vegetable oil. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 10 Dec 1998 11:21:41 -0500 LOOKS LIKE EVERYONE IS GETTING INTO THE ADVISE PART ON THE BUFFALO HORN or about a horn : HOW ABOUT MY TWO CENTS WORTH: BUFFALO horn is similar to cow horn but seems to have a different texture and depending on what you want as a finish will depend on how you will work it---it can have a mat finish or be slick and glossy. I never use steel wool on a horn especially if I want a slick finish it will seem to embed into the horn and is also is messy to work with. first you must know that when working horn the grain goes toward the tip and that is the direction that you should scrape it or polish toward---never in the other direction since most BUFFALO horns are older and it will seem to lift the grain up----you can use a piece of glass or a sharp knife to scrape it just remember the grain direction and always scrape it toward the tip---you can also carve it using a double cut file and again you file it toward the tip as much as possible. you can cut flats on it and grooves quite easily the flats are cut by fileing cross grain and starting from a groove at the tip and at the end of the flat. once you get the shape you want start with 320 paper and sand toward the tip and never cross grain it will leave marks just like wood which are hard to get out---next after you have attained a smooth finish and you have most of your scrape marks off use 600 wet or dry paper and again sand---and I do use water with the paper because it helps to keep the paper clean NOTE: I DO THIS BEFORE I PLUG THE HORN--- next is the part that most people don't like to do but there is a couple of secrets that will get you a good seal and fit so that you wont have to use the wax to get it water tight---take the horn and grind it perfectly flat on the open end--then go to your scrap wood box and select a 1.00 in board I usually use pine---set it on your work bench and take a pencil and set the horn on the board and draw around the horn base as close as you can---next set the table of your band saw or jig saw off of square by about 2 or 4 degrees or where the blade is about 87 to 88 degrees this will cause you to cut one end of the horn plug smaller than the other---the blade should be so that the bottom of the board the opposite of where you have scribed is the smaller side---cut on the line that you drew on the board so that when you finish cutting out the plug you cannot see any of the line left this is your base for the plug---apply either elmers glue or 2 part epoxy to the edge quite liberally and force into the base of the horn the plug should go almost flush with the base of the horn if not grind a few thousands off or file it off. use the elmers or the epoxy liberal'y let set until dry and then go back to the grinder and grind the wood flush with base of the horn---now--select a fine fancy piece of wood about 1.00 to 2.00 thick this should be plained or ground flat on one side. I then drill a hole in the center of the applied plug and install a hickory dowel and glue it in place making sure not to leave any glue on the outer flat surface---I normally use a 3/8 to 7/16 dowel---after the dowel has dried cut it off about 3/8 to 1/2 in from the flat surface---take the fancy wood and on the flat side mark it's center and drill with the same drill that you used for the dowel but hold your depth at about 5/8 max I also take a file and chamfer the edges of the dowel slightly----NOTE i DO NOT INSTALL A DOWEL IF I AM GOING TO PUT IN A BRASS FILLER PLUG IN THE END OF THE HORN---now with your elmers coat the surface of the fancy wood that you drilled on and press down on the dowel until the fancy wood is flush and flat with the horn. sometimes you have to champher the hole in the fancy wood or make it a bit larger to get the wood to lay flat--- You will be able to shape or carve this to your hearts desire---NOW back to the plug---go to your local super market and get some kabob sticks they are usually made of cain and shaped round---and are of pretty consistent diameter of .110 to .115---these will be used to pin the plug in place---you can also use brass tacks if your heart desires but most older horns used the cain plugs and will polish up quite nice and not come out if pressed in place and also glued---now drill holes about 3/8 of an inch from the base of the horn about ever 1 to 1 1/2 inches around the horn apply glue and force the kabob stick into the holes usually try for a fit that I have to tap the pins in place and cut them flush with the horn. YOU NOW HAVE A HORN THAT SHOULD BE WATER TIGHT--TEST IT BY BLOWING THRU THE DRILLED END IF YOU WISH--- Finish shaping the plug and the upper end of the horn now sand the horn again starting with 320 and progressing to 600 paper always sanding with the grain especially on the horn. you can progress to 1200 paper if you wish or and get pink or blue scower bright from the local hardware store this is equivalent to 3- OOO or 4-OOOO steel woll and gives you a good matt surface and almost a polish on the horn. If the horn is white or light colored and you wish to age it and make it look old now is the time to stain it----TO STAIN THE HORN---NOT THE WOOD---I use a product that i found several years ago called "OLD BONES" it is made and marketed by "Howard Robinson firearms and Assessories, Post Office Box 1397, Lawrenceburg , Ky. 40342. This is a concentrate so depending on how dark you wish to stain the horn apply accordingly and let dry--It can be thinned with water and several coats applied to get the color you desire. to stain the wood I use magic maple mystery stain on maple or any other water base stain on walnut or other wood that has been used on the base---I re-sand the plug after staining and apply a sealer and a finish---NOTE:SCRIMSHAW HORNS ARE DIFFERENT AND THE FOLLOWING MUST BE DONE. I DO NOT STAIN A SCRIMSHAW HORN UNTIL AFTER THE SCRATCHING IS FINISHED Now you have a finished horn unless you wish a gloss or slick finish that you will be scrimshawing---If you are going to scrimshaw the horn surface must be perfectly slick without andy marks or sandpaper marks that can be seen with a glass---to get this slick surface I normally use fine car rubbing compound and apply it onto the palm of my hand and start rubbing---just as the old whalers uses pumice to slick out a whales tooth so that it could be scratched on---i SIT AND WATCH TV AND RUB THE HORN---it takes several hrs to get this finish so be patient and you will appreciate the cost of fine horns---and it takes a lot of elbow grease to get done---scratch the horn and apply the stain as above since there is oil in the rubbing compound it will take several coats to get the color you need sometimes I use the stain straight from the bottle without deleting it--- finishing off a BUFFALO horn I only use the rubbing compound and a lot of rubbing--some people will use a buffing wheel with white ruge on it to get the initial slick and to save some time but I still use the compound to get my final finish---the buffing wheel speeds up the finishing process but it also drives oil into the horn and makes it more difficult to get it to take a stain if you wish to age or antique the horn---normally BUFFALO horn will not require a stain. KRAMER SHOULD COME ON LINE AND GIVE SOME EXAMPLES OF FINISH---FOR THE STAIN YOU CAN USE WHAT EVER YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH I NORMALLY USE A WATER BASE STAIN ON ALL WOODS EXCEPT MAPLE AND USE THE MAGIC MAPLE ON IT ---THE MAGIC MAPLE IS A ACID BASED STAIN AND MUST BE KILLED PRIOR TO SEALING OR FINISHING--- i WROTE THIS IN HOPES OF NOT GETTING INTO 50 MSG'S REGARDING FINISHING A HORN---PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR BEING SO DETAIL AND BEING SO SPECIFIC BUT I HOPE IT WILL HELP SOME OF YOU OUT THERE WHO ARE DOING YOUR FIRST HORN. THE HORN MAN FROM OHIO WHO IS ALWAYS AT FRIENDSHIP (WILBORN I BELIEVE IS HIS NAME OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT)IS THE ONE WHO TAUGHT ME THE ABOVE AND IT HAS WORKED WELL FOR ME WITH A FEW ADDED METHOLOGIES THAT i HAVE ADDED FOR MYSELF---WILBORN SELLS HORNS AND KITS ALL OF THE HIGHEST QUALITY HIS NAME AND ADDRESS IS AS FOLLOWS--- karl wilborn 5073 townsley rd cedervill, Ohio 45314 phone number 513-766-5415 his prices range from about $20 for a small horn to about $40.00 for a large horn and his daughter is a excellent scrimshawer---or he has other people that scratch for him---the prices above are for plain horns of the highest quality---you can specify the color and size to him when you order and he will also match a pair of horns for you if you have a flint gun---HE HAS ALWAYS GIVEN ME GOOD QUALITY AND SERVICE. I never have been disappointed in a order from him--normally there is only a minimum amount of finish required to get a quality finished horn---- I hope I have been of some service to the list--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:00:16 -0500 MacRaith@mail.swbell.net writes: >Tom, > I used a couple of coats of automotive wax on my buffler horn to >bring >out a shine and walnut hulls for a brown dye/stain on my plug. The >type of >wax might not be true for the time, but the stain shure is! > >Thomas W. Roberts wrote: > >> Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate >technique >> to bring >> the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up >to >> 1800 grit and >> it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking >for >> an appropriate >> stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this >> thing and don't >> want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, >it's >> only horn, >> wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of >elbow >> grease. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Tom > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo horn Date: 10 Dec 1998 11:41:54 -0500 if you use car rubbing compound or pumice mixed with oil it will make them shine and also adds to the color and life of the horn---just as saddle soap adds to the life of leather. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:45:11 +0100 Allen Chronister writes: >I agree with those who have suggested some kind of >wax to bring out the luster in buffalo horn. >In my experience no amount of polishing will make >it "shine" (but then I'm pretty impatient, too.) >Floor or furniture wax works, as do such things as >bear grease and neatsfoot. When I'm making a >buffalo >horn spoon, I use a little bit of vegetable oil. >Allen Chronister > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Date: 10 Dec 1998 12:40:11 -0600 Amoore2120@aol.com wrote: > . . . I remember that it was common to see people collect and save nails > after pulling them out of old lumber. Indeed, early in the westward expansion, people would sometimes burn down their old houses (particularly the doors that had a lot of nails) to salvage the nails to take with them westward. Realizing this waste, governments enacted laws to discourage this. Maybe I should look it up first, but I remember there are some claims that nailer boys could make 200 nails an hour. Being an amateur blacksmith, that seems impossible. Have you ever heard the saying "Never missed a lick"? To make that many nails, indeed you couldn't afford one missapplied hammer blow. And of course they had "too many irons in the fire." Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 10 Dec 1998 13:45:00 -0600 Washtahay- This is the way I build horns, FWIW. Most of it is based on examining original horns and figuring out which, of the tools available, left the visible tool marks. I pick out a good horn to start off with. Dairy cattle tend to have better horns-finer grain structure, with a smoother inside. Beef cattle-especially range cattle-tend to have coarser horns, with ridges inside. They also seem to have more green than I like! Once I have selected a horn, i cut off the large end square. Then I cut off the tip and drill it. I use a 3/16" drill for this, then run a home made tapered reamer in to open the hole to a taper so it is about 1/4" at the largest. If need be, I clean up the horn some with a rasp, file any details I want to use-like a ring for the strap, then go to scraping. I use a steel cabinet scraper, and scrape from the large end towards the tip. Once the horn is rough-scraped, I stick the large end in boiling water til it softens. I press in a tapered wood form (finished with beeswax) to make the end circular, and let the horn cool. My tapered forms are marked off with a series of rings, each ring indicating a 1/4" increase in diameter. While the horn is cooling, I use a lathe to turn out a plug. The plug should taper slightly-about 3/16" in diameter over an inch-where it fits into the horn. The outside I usually copy off various originals shown in books or in museums. I also hollow the inside of the plug to make it lighter, having seen this on several original plugs. When the plug is turned, I set the horn in an oven for about 15 minutes at 150 degrees F. This melts the wax on the form, so it will release easily. I pull the form and insert the plug. Usually I wind up having to fit the plug a bit. When the plug is in place, I drill and pin like Hawk mentioned. I scrape the horn lightly to remove any marks left from the earlier work, then buff it by hand with jeweler's rouge on a leather belt. Then I buff it with beeswax on a piece of canvas or denim. I make the spout plug out of hardwood, usually hickory, osage, or ash. The plug portion should taper slightly-makes it a lot easier to pull out of the horn. Again, I usually turn these on the lathe. I finish the wood with whatever comes handy-really! The plug the horn I use most of the time is pine, finished with multiple coats of beeswax melted in. (Do I need to say you probably shouldn't have fire around a horn filled with powder?) I attach the strap by whatever method seems appropriate-often I use a staple made of brass wire (brazing rod)-at the large end. Normally I just tie the strap around the small end. Sometimes I carefully drill holes and add a staple there also. Most of the time when I make a horn, I have an illustration of an original in front of me. I copy the construction techniques, shapes, etc from this. Does this sound like production work? To some extent it is-period production techniques adapted for modern one-off work. I tend to copy horns made "for the trade" rather than the one-off custom horns. Back then, techniques were used by horn makers to produce horns that would sell at the going price. I've seen records that indicate a typical retail price of fifty to seventy-five cents per horn in the years 1800-1840. This at a time when a Hawken rifle sold for $20. (All prices St. Louis) By the HBC at least, horns were of standardized sizes as well. In modern terms, an equivalent copy of that $20 Hawken might cost $1000-$1500. That fifty cent trade horn would sell for $25 to $37.50. There aren't a lot of decent copies of trade horns made today in that price range. Don't get me wrong here-there are good horns available in that price range, but for some reason production horn makers today don't seem to copy trade horns. Using the Track of The Wolf catalog (because I have it handy) the closest to the horn I am describing costs about $48. I can't help but wonder what modern mass-production would price a trade horn at.... LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas W. Roberts" Subject: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 10 Dec 1998 16:46:42 -0800 Well, that's what I like about this forum. I ask for advice and many experienced folks offer me the benefit of their wisdom. I now have several options from which to choose. Although I did succumb to modern tools in the interest of finishing in this lifetime, I am comitted to avoiding modern materials for the construction or for the finish so the modern polishes are out. Since the horn is already constructed, it will also be necessary to carefully apply the stain to only the wood and avoid polishing the horn until the wood has been stained. If I ever do this again, I will certainly take advantage of the suggestion to use pre-made skewers for the butt plug retention pins instead of carving them from scratch. One other departure I made from the commonly suggested construction technique was to avoid the boiling to force the horn round. Instead, I shaped the butt plug to match the natural, slightly oval, shape of the horn. It was a bit of a challenge but it turned out quite well and I think it was worth the effort. Thank you all for your quick and willing advice. Hopefully, this thing will be pourin' powder real soon! Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 10 Dec 1998 18:45:17 -0600 Dennis, I got the recipe for this stain from the back of a old Dixie catalog. It works great, but it will raise the grain if the piece has not been properly whiskered. It produces a real nice reddish brown color when followed up with linseed oil. The color varies with the amount of tobacco and the brand used in the ammonia. Pendleton ---------- > From: Dennis Miles > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn > Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:09 PM > > Larry, > Ammonia?? I'll be damned..I have alwys just used the juice outta my can I > keep in the shop for the purpose, then mix it with warm linseed...I will > have to try the ammonia..What does it do? Make it richer?? Deeper?? > Dennis > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > -----Original Message----- > From: yellow rose/pendleton > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:12 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn > > > >I forgot to mention the stain on the butt plug. I don't know if I would use > >a nitric acid stain on a horn, but I'll tell you what will work real nice. > >Take a plug of chewing tobacco and tear it up into a pint jar. Then fill > >the jar with household ammonia. Put a lid on it and forget about it for a > >couple of weeks. This makes a fine stain for maple. > >Pendleton > > > >-- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 10 Dec 1998 19:01:31 -0500 Thanks.. I'll try it.. Hell, I love checking out things new... Wonder how it will work on Red Oak?? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >Dennis, > I got the recipe for this stain from the back of a old Dixie catalog. It >works great, but it will raise the grain if the piece has not been properly >whiskered. It produces a real nice reddish brown color when followed up >with linseed oil. The color varies with the amount of tobacco and the brand >used in the ammonia. >Pendleton > >---------- >> From: Dennis Miles >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn >> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:09 PM >> >> Larry, >> Ammonia?? I'll be damned..I have alwys just used the juice outta my can >I >> keep in the shop for the purpose, then mix it with warm linseed...I will >> have to try the ammonia..What does it do? Make it richer?? Deeper?? >> Dennis >> >> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments >> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: yellow rose/pendleton >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:12 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn >> >> >> >I forgot to mention the stain on the butt plug. I don't know if I would >use >> >a nitric acid stain on a horn, but I'll tell you what will work real >nice. >> >Take a plug of chewing tobacco and tear it up into a pint jar. Then fill >> >the jar with household ammonia. Put a lid on it and forget about it for >a >> >couple of weeks. This makes a fine stain for maple. >> >Pendleton >> > >> >-- >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas W. Roberts" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 10 Dec 1998 23:19:02 -0800 Phil, I got my buffalo horns from Moscow Hide & Fur in Idaho. Their website address is: http//www.hideandfur.com/. They are priced by size and I thought the price was very reasonable. When I first got them they looked pretty rough but they have turned out lookin' real good. Tom Philip C. Rogers, Jr. wrote: > Along those same lines, could someone point me to someone who has the > raw buffalo horns for sale?? > > Phil Rogers > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Date: 11 Dec 1998 03:18:00 EST In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write: << What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's manufactured nails? Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in our present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb. As Long Walker points out in his message about period powderhorns, this was when a 50 cent trade horn was available. Today, according to his calculations that horn would sell for $25 - $37.50, so the 6d nails would be roughly $3 - $5/lb by today's comparison. Also we must consider what the wages were in those days. $1/day was good money then, so 8lbs of 6d nails would be almost 1/2 day's pay. Seems I remember seeing somewhere bread cost about 2 cents/loaf about this time. With this in mind, nails were expensive. < I remember that it was common to see people collect and save nails after pulling them out of old lumber. >> I remember doing exactly that! While Dad bought new nails for new construction, almost all the normal repairs around the farm were done with "recycled" nails. Our "kid projects" were done with the recycled nails too unless we wanted a session with Dad out behind the barn! Woe be unto those who used Dad's new nails in a tree house! The modern "throw away mentality" did not exist back then. Iron was hard to come by in any form which was a boon to all blacksmiths because they were able to take almost any iron object that wasn't used & turn it into something that was. Like you point out, worn clothing was patched until it just wouldn't hold any more patches, then turned into quilts. You didn't mention the "rag rugs" we made for our floors or were used for "stuffing" for stuffed animal toys when such luxuries were made, or used as hand & dish towels, or bandages, or -----. Worn out clothing was far from being useless! I didn't know you could actualy buy little pieces of cloth JUST for cleaning guns until I was well into my teens! I grew up with the mentality that John Cramer uses as a tag line: "wear it out, use it up, or do without" -- I know I didn't get that right, but we've all seen it numerous times in his messages. This is the same mentality that our forefathers had. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Date: 11 Dec 1998 06:46:28 -0600 -----Original Message----- >In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write: > ><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's >manufactured > nails? > >Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A >calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in our >present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb. That's 6d = 6 cents per hundred Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Announcement Date: 11 Dec 1998 23:48:18 +1100 (EST) I would also be interested in your patterns. Y.M.U.S. Sleeping Bear ---Jim Colburn wrote: > > Washtahay- > As I discussed about 18 months ago, I have begun making drawings and > construction notes on items from my small personal collection of original > accoutremounts. Drawings and notes completed to date include several > powder measures, and full size patterns and notes for two different hunting > pouches. > Please inquire directly of me for particulars. > LongWalker c. du B. > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Nails, Reuse, and Powder Horn Date: 11 Dec 1998 10:45:49 EST Thank you for the pricing information of old nails, I figured they must have been expensive judging by the royal treatment. I grew up in a very poor neighborhood and it was interesting to observe the innovative things people used to do to make things go farther and make due. The nails were pulled and straightened, as perviously mentioned, but the old lumber was stacked for reuse too. Any type of wire was carefully wound and stored. Regarding reuse of worn clothing--as many of you are saying, times change and the old ways make way for new attitudes. Patches used to be a common sight and it was not considered a disgrace at all to wear neatly patched clothing. In fact, mothers and wives took considerable pride in their ability to turn out a fine looking patch that performed well. In fact, a lot of folks knew how to sew a good patch. I have watched with interest the recent powder horn discussion. I wonder if someone would mind telling me who invented the powder horn and the reasoning behind the selection of materials? I remember going with my father to feed silage and I noticed many of the cattle with broken horns. Was this a problem with powder horns--why or why not? Could someone please tell me a source where I can order the Dixie Gun Works catalog and the Amazon Dry Goods catalog? Thank you. Very best regards, Andrea Moore ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Date: 11 Dec 1998 10:41:36 -0500 forgot to note in my input that i like to use ebony fiddle ajusters for plugs they work great -seal good and are slightly tapered and do not shrink or swell---have seen several originals that used the same thing so followed along that line---- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Philip Huvler Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Date: 11 Dec 1998 10:17:07 -0500 (EST) At 06:46 AM 12/11/98 -0600, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: NaugaMok@aol.com > > >>In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write: >> >><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's >>manufactured >> nails? >> >>Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A >>calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in our >>present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb. > >That's 6d = 6 cents per hundred > >Iron Burner > >Rag rugs were mentioned as being a way to recycle cloth various articles that I have read showed they were for the beds not the floor even though they were called rag rugs interesting thought > Dummy 'still alive just been mute;) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rag Rugs (floor & bed) Date: 11 Dec 1998 11:48:28 EST In a message dated 12/11/98 8:20:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, huv@mail.bright.net writes: << Rag rugs were mentioned as being a way to recycle cloth various articles that I have read showed they were for the beds not the floor even though they were called rag rugs interesting thought >> Interesting to me is rag rugs for the bed! Were they used for blankets and made similiar to rugs for the floor: tearing strips of cloth goods, braiding and then whipping the edges to form a coil? If this is the case, the bed rugs would have been extremely heavy and thick. Or were they perhaps instead used as a matress pad or incorporated into the matress itself, or other? I feel like I am missing something really obvious here and would like to hear more about bed rugs, how they were made, intended purpose, how they differed from their cousin the braided floor rug, etc. Best regards, Andrea Moore ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Nails, Reuse, and Powder Horn Date: 11 Dec 1998 10:51:22 -0600 Washtahay- At 10:45 AM 12/11/98 EST, you wrote: > Thank you for the pricing information of old nails, I figured they must have >been expensive judging by the royal treatment. I grew up in a very poor >neighborhood and it was interesting to observe the innovative things people >used to do to make things go farther and make due. The nails were pulled and >straightened, as perviously mentioned, but the old lumber was stacked for >reuse too. Any type of wire was carefully wound and stored. Old habits die hard, some of us still do that. The first step in building a project is to conceive it, the second is to adapt it to the materials available or on hand. > I have watched with interest the recent powder horn discussion. I wonder if >someone would mind telling me who invented the powder horn and the reasoning >behind the selection of materials? good question, open to a lot of debate. The earliest use of horns for powder that I have seen dated is ca. mid 1500s. There is a drawing of an artilleryman with a horn on the deck. Probably in use much prior to that. Horns have been used for a long time to keep things dry. It might help you to think of horn as the pre-industrial version of plastic. Horn is, to some extent, thermoplastic. It can be easily shaped with hand tools, heated and formed, and lasts a fairly long time. It is fairly water-resistant. > I remember going with my father to feed >silage and I noticed many of the cattle with broken horns. Was this a problem >with powder horns--why or why not? Horns broke-witness the number of original horns with repairs. When scraped thin, it can be brittle. It has a tendency to get brittle in extreme cold as well-both of the horns I have broken were cracked when hit or bumped on rock when the ambient temperature was around -20 F. > > Could someone please tell me a source where I can order the Dixie Gun Works >catalog Dixie-1-800-238-6785 >and the Amazon Dry Goods catalog Can't help ya there. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nails, Reuse, and Powder Horn Date: 11 Dec 1998 14:29:45 EST Question: > > I have watched with interest the recent powder horn discussion. I wonder > if someone would mind telling me who invented the powder horn and the > reasoning behind the selection of materials? > good question, open to a lot of debate. The earliest use of horns for > powder that I have seen dated is ca. mid 1500s. Probably in use much prior > to that. Horns have been used for a long time to keep things dry. Horns have been used as containers since at least the Bronze Age. Re: Romans using ram's horns as drinking vessels. Horns were also used as shipping containers for powder, but were in raw unfinished condition. They were certainly plugged, but I don't know if they were usable as delivered. Many old trade lists mention X number of horns of powder in their manifests. Does anyone know anything about these horns. Could a strap or thong be added and the horn used and carried, or were they merely shipping containers? TOF ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darrel William Grubbs Subject: MtMan-List: the price of nails.... Date: 11 Dec 1998 12:48:43 -0800 (PST) > Blacksmiths made some of the nails, but they were more commonly made by > "nailers". Many nailers were women & children who made nails for spending > money. Many home hearths were devised with small forge areas which were fed > with coals from the cook fire & "fanned" with a small bellows. About the only > special tooling needed for nail production were the "headers" which were > simply moulds or in proper terms, "swages" used to keep the head shape & size > of a specific nail size uniform. Some nailers got quite creative in > decorating the heads of their nails with the use of smaller hammers & punches. > > This info was gleaned from several old issures of ABANA's (Artist-Blacksmith's > Association of North America) magazine: "The Anvil's Ring" & NWBA's (North > West Blacksmith's Association) magazine "Hot Iron News". > > NM > > ------------------------------ > The price of nails Think about the name 4 penny 6penny 8 penny...I have heard originals that they werename this due to the worth of a nail of that particular size.. Don't have dates on the sorrs darrel _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Nails, Reuse, and Powder Horn Date: 11 Dec 1998 16:01:23 -0500 you might also think that a horn was a unit of measure similar to todays lb of powder most of your old horns will hold about 1 lb of powder on the large size horn give or take a bit--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:29:45 EST ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: >Question: >> > I have watched with interest the recent powder horn >discussion. I wonder >> if someone would mind telling me who invented the powder horn and >the >> reasoning behind the selection of materials? >> good question, open to a lot of debate. The earliest use >of horns for >> powder that I have seen dated is ca. mid 1500s. Probably in use >much prior >> to that. Horns have been used for a long time to keep things dry. > >Horns have been used as containers since at least the Bronze Age. Re: >Romans >using ram's horns as drinking vessels. Horns were also used as >shipping >containers for powder, but were in raw unfinished condition. They >were >certainly plugged, but I don't know if they were usable as delivered. >Many >old trade lists mention X number of horns of powder in their >manifests. Does >anyone know anything about these horns. Could a strap or thong be >added and >the horn used and carried, or were they merely shipping containers? > >TOF > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Date: 12 Dec 1998 02:13:36 GMT On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:18:00 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write: > ><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's >manufactured > nails?=20 > >Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails.= A >calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in = our >present day nail sizes like "6d" =3D 6 cents/lb. As Long Walker points = out in >his message about period powderhorns, this was when a 50 cent trade horn= was >available. Today, according to his calculations that horn would sell = for $25 >- $37.50, so the 6d nails would be roughly $3 - $5/lb by today's = comparison. >Also we must consider what the wages were in those days. $1/day was = good >money then, so 8lbs of 6d nails would be almost 1/2 day's pay. Seems I >remember seeing somewhere bread cost about 2 cents/loaf about this time.= With >this in mind, nails were expensive. >=20 Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes meant. He told me that was the price per hundred nails. 6d being much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper. I don't recall any published sources, but there might be something in one of my Alexander or Sloane books. Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including = "BS". 1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Date: 11 Dec 1998 19:34:48 -0700 To see a neat chart with hand made nails, write to TREMONT NAIL CO. Elm Street at Route 28, P.O.Box 111, Wareham, MA 02571. Ask for their "Old Fashioned CUT NAILS 1819" display board, there's 20 different styles of nails from this Colonial Company, originally a cotton mill in 1812 and converted to producing "cut nails" for the ship industry in 1819. Comes with a little history about nails, forged and cut, you'll find it very interesting, don't know a price as I have had my nail board for a few years. Buck dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ -----Original Message----- On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:18:00 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write: > ><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's >manufactured > nails? > >Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A >calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in our >present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb. As Long Walker points out in >his message about period powderhorns, this was when a 50 cent trade horn was >available. Today, according to his calculations that horn would sell for $25 >- $37.50, so the 6d nails would be roughly $3 - $5/lb by today's comparison. >Also we must consider what the wages were in those days. $1/day was good >money then, so 8lbs of 6d nails would be almost 1/2 day's pay. Seems I >remember seeing somewhere bread cost about 2 cents/loaf about this time. With >this in mind, nails were expensive. > Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes meant. He told me that was the price per hundred nails. 6d being much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper. I don't recall any published sources, but there might be something in one of my Alexander or Sloane books. Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". 1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Date: 11 Dec 1998 22:48:25 -0600 For a web link to Tremont Nail try: <http://www.mazenails.com/> John... At 07:34 PM 12/11/98 -0700, you wrote: >To see a neat chart with hand made nails, write to TREMONT NAIL CO. Elm >Street at Route 28, P.O.Box 111, Wareham, MA 02571. > >Ask for their "Old Fashioned CUT NAILS 1819" display board, there's 20 >different styles of nails from this Colonial Company, originally a cotton >mill in 1812 and converted to producing "cut nails" for the ship industry= in >1819. Comes with a little history about nails, forged and cut, you'll find >it very interesting, don't know a price as I have had my nail board for a >few years. > >Buck >dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >http://www.teleport.com/~walking/ clark/ > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Roy Parker >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 7:17 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse > > >On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:18:00 EST, you wrote: > >>In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write: >> >><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's >>manufactured >> nails? >> >>Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails.= =A0 A >>calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in= our >>present day nail sizes like "6d" =3D 6 cents/lb.=A0 As Long Walker points= out >in >>his message about period powderhorns, this was when a 50 cent trade horn >was >>available.=A0 Today, according to his calculations that horn would sell= for >$25 >>- $37.50, so the 6d nails would be roughly $3 - $5/lb by today's >comparison. >>Also we must consider what the wages were in those days.=A0 $1/day was= good >>money then, so 8lbs of=A0 6d nails would be almost 1/2 day's pay.=A0 Seems= I >>remember seeing somewhere bread cost about 2 cents/loaf about this time. >With >>this in mind, nails were expensive. >> > >Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking >demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes >meant.=A0 He told me that was the price per hundred nails.=A0 6d being >much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper. > >I don't recall any published sources, but there might be something in >one of my Alexander or Sloane books. > > >Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including= "BS". >1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Date: 12 Dec 1998 09:58:28 -0700 Thanks John, Was wondering if they had got on line. YF&B Buck -----Original Message----- For a web link to Tremont Nail try: <http://www.mazenails.com/> John... At 07:34 PM 12/11/98 -0700, you wrote: >To see a neat chart with hand made nails, write to TREMONT NAIL CO. Elm >Street at Route 28, P.O.Box 111, Wareham, MA 02571. > >Ask for their "Old Fashioned CUT NAILS 1819" display board, there's 20 >different styles of nails from this Colonial Company, originally a cotton >mill in 1812 and converted to producing "cut nails" for the ship industry in >1819. Comes with a little history about nails, forged and cut, you'll find >it very interesting, don't know a price as I have had my nail board for a >few years. > >Buck >dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >http://www.teleport.com/~walking/ clark/ > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Roy Parker >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 7:17 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse > > >On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:18:00 EST, you wrote: > >>In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write: >> >><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's >>manufactured >> nails? >> >>Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A >>calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in our >>present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb. As Long Walker points out >in >>his message about period powderhorns, this was when a 50 cent trade horn >was >>available. Today, according to his calculations that horn would sell for >$25 >>- $37.50, so the 6d nails would be roughly $3 - $5/lb by today's >comparison. >>Also we must consider what the wages were in those days. $1/day was good >>money then, so 8lbs of 6d nails would be almost 1/2 day's pay. Seems I >>remember seeing somewhere bread cost about 2 cents/loaf about this time. >With >>this in mind, nails were expensive. >> > >Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking >demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes >meant. He told me that was the price per hundred nails. 6d being >much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper. > >I don't recall any published sources, but there might be something in >one of my Alexander or Sloane books. > > >Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". >1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Date: 12 Dec 1998 12:30:15 EST In a message dated 98-12-11 21:39:56 EST, you write: << Comes with a little history about nails, forged and cut, you'll find it very interesting, don't know a price as I have had my nail board for a few years. >> Would you mind sharing a bit of that info? It's my understanding "cut" nails were one of the first things mass produced in the US. They were cut with a shear from flat stock & "headed" by a machine. Is this correct? NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the price of nails.... Date: 12 Dec 1998 12:30:13 EST In a message dated 98-12-11 15:54:26 EST, you write: << Think about the name 4 penny 6penny 8 penny...I have heard originals that they werename this due to the worth of a nail of that particular size >> Correct, but as Iron Burner & others have pointed out, it was per hundred instead of per pound. Today's nails reflect the different sizes the origional hand made nails had. In other words, the bigger the nail, the more it cost. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rag Rugs (floor & bed) Date: 12 Dec 1998 13:46:12 EST In a message dated 98-12-11 12:08:17 EST, you write: << tearing strips of cloth goods, braiding and then whipping the edges to form a coil? >> Though probably not a period method of making rag rugs, we had a lady in the farming comunity where I grew up who wove rag rugs on a loom. I can never remember which is warp & which is weft, but the rags were torn into strips, twisted tightly then used as the "thread" that went across the width -- weft?? Seems I remember her calling the lengthwise threads -- actualy about like kite string, "warp". Maybe I got that backwards 'cuz it was nearly 40 years ago that I watched her make rugs. I often wonder what became of her loom. Dad & I had many hours wrapped up in it's repairs like replacing the wires in the part that packed the weft into position. Curiosity got the best of me -- Mr Webster's book of words sez I remembered right. My Grandmother did the brading & sewing into a coil, so we had both ways. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Nails, Reuse, and Powder Horn Date: 12 Dec 1998 13:46:08 EST In a message dated 98-12-11 11:06:08 EST, you write: << Could someone please tell me a source where I can order the Dixie Gun Works catalog and the Amazon Dry Goods catalog? Thank you. >> I see others have sent the Dixie phone #, so I won't duplicate. The wife finaly found this one: Amazon Dry Goods 2218 East 11th St. Davenport, IA 52803 (319) 322-6800 General catalog $2, pattern catalog $5 Unfortunatley, no web address. She did find the address on line at: http://www.toreadors.com/costume/mailorder.html NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 12 Dec 1998 13:32:43 -0700 Louis, I bought some Bearberry (Kinnikinnick) and Mullien tea at a health food store here. The mullien tea looks more like they used the flowers than the leaves. Is this right or do I need to find a source for the leaves? Smells like some stuff I used to smoke long ago. As for red willow bark, do you use the outer bark or inner or both? Thanks YMOS, Ron Chamberlain ---------- > From: Sickler, Louis L > To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.com' > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... > Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 6:30 AM > > Gail, > > Here in Denver, CO we have a store called Alfalfa's that carries a > LOT of natural herbs. Most of what I use comes from there and is already > fairly finely ground/crushed. > This especially applies to the angelica, mullein and sumac berries (which I > didn't mention before, sorry). I couldn't tell angelica in the forest from > hemlock - a real BAD thing (not that they are similar, but you get my > drift). It is just SAFER that way. I do gather my own red willow bark from > my favorite elk hunting beaver pond area and kinnickinnick from anywhere > west of here that I happen to be hiking. These are EASY to identify and I > feel OK using them. > > But, yes, all the ingredients are fine, small parts. The kinnickinnick > berries are already pretty dry naturally, they're not like cherries or > anything. I usually just hang a whole bunch of leaves and berries as they > were gathered in my basement room for a while until all are dry. Then break > up the leaves with my fingers while separating the berries. Like I said > before, I try to remove the seeds from the berries as much as possible, they > are large compared with the berry material and don't taste especially good. > > I guess you could say it smokes rather hot, but in a clay pipe tobacco gets > pretty warm too. I use a clay pipe that was excavated from a pipe > manufacturing business in central Ohio. The pipe was from a trash area that > was dated to be in use before 1840, how lucky! I do not recall any > references to mountain men rolling their own cigarettes out of > kinnickinnick, etc. , but the references to clay pipes (and even white men > owning and using pipestone pipes) are numerous. > > As for the taste, it's hard to describe, but is very nice. Once you smell > the odor of red willow bark wafting through the camp, you'll never forget > it. It's sort of like the stuff left over from the manufacture of ropes, > that we're not supposed to smoke - very distinctive. It is not harsh at all > and can be inhaled without irritation. I do not consider myself a smoker & > do not smoke this stuff a lot, but when I want the taste & odor of my last > camp out, I break out the old pipe. > > Hope this helps some. > > YMHOS, > Red Coyote > > > ---------- > > From: Gail Carbiener > > Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 1998 14:18 > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... > > > > Louis: > > Do you crush the mixture to a fine small parts.. You probably dry the > > berries in the sun. Sounds like the mixture might smoke pretty hot. Can > > you > > describe the taste. I will need to look up the other two items, angelica > > root and mullein. Thanks for the info. > > Gail > > Living History MtMan > > ================= > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: MtMan-List: Tremont Nail Company Date: 12 Dec 1998 15:07:03 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE25E1.133D3400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK folks you asked for it; Nails in their crudest form date back to 3000 = B.C., the Romans hand-forged them and they have been found in = excavations and sunken ships from the eriod 500 A.D. When our ancestors first stepped from the Mayflower onto that soil that = that was to become Plymouth County, they discovered a soil which was = essentially sandy and difficult to cultivate. As they plowed for their = first crops, they noticed that the earth yielded small deposits of crude = iron ore mixed with the ooze of the swampy regions. from this ore and = with crude smelters, they separated the metal from the ore and began the = fashioning of nails and tools similar to those they had left behind when = they sailed into the unknown. Nailmaking in America during the Revolutionary period was confined to = small shops where as amany as a thousand nails per day could be hand = forged by skilled "nailers". After the Revolution, demand grew rapidly, = farmers and their families would hand-make nails during the winter = months to supplement their incomes. Demand further increased however, = and supplies of hand-made nails were insufficent. During the late 1700's the first cut nail making machines appeared, the = first machine cut and "head" a nail in one operation was invented by = Ezekiel Reed of Bridgewater, MA. The original nail factory was built on the site of an old cotton mill = (Parker Mills) which had been shelled and burned by the British in the = War of 1812. With the advent of the cut nail making machines came the = establishment of Parker Mills, nail company in 1819, by Isaac and Jared = Pratt. This later became known as the Tremont Nail Company. From PENNYWEIGHT to PENNY (a small "d" indicates penny) Originally the = terms 8d and 10d were used to denote prices of nails per hundred count. = However, due to the fluctuations of prices this significance was lost = and the terms were retained to designate sizes. Example 2d =3D 1 inch, = 8d =3D 2 1/2 inch, 100d =3D 8 inch. Still produced are , brads, fine finish, shingle, box, clout, common, = slating, boat, common rosehead, hihdge, spikes, headless foundry, = sheathing, firedoor clinch, floor, headless brads, chinch rosehead, = wrought head, common siding and masonry, all sheet cut nails for those = wanting the best available 17th century nails.=20 The main building in use today was constructed in 1848 on the site of = the old fulling mill. Since 1819, Tremont Nail Company has endured = through all the changes and hurried pace of modern industry. The same = products are still being produced for customers who prefer the superior = holding quality and durability of these time tested nails. For a century and a half sheet cut nails has maintained a reputation for = skilled nail cutting that has built America throughtout the test of = time. Tremont Nail Company is America's oldest nail manufacturer. Well folks now you have the story, write them for a "Nail Card" and the = next project you can really nail it down. __________________________________________________ In a message dated 98-12-11 21:39:56 EST, you write: << Comes with a little history about nails, forged and cut, you'll find = it very interesting, don't know a price as I have had my nail board for = a few years. >> Would you mind sharing a bit of that info? It's my understanding "cut" = nails were one of the first things mass produced in the US. They were = cut with a shear from flat stock & "headed" by a machine. Is this = correct? NM =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE25E1.133D3400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK folks you asked for it; = Nails in=20 their crudest form date back to 3000 B.C., the Romans hand-forged them = and they=20 have been found in excavations and sunken ships from the eriod 500=20 A.D.
When our ancestors first stepped from the = Mayflower onto=20 that soil that that was to become Plymouth County, they discovered a = soil which=20 was essentially sandy and difficult to cultivate. As they plowed for = their first=20 crops, they noticed that the earth yielded small deposits of crude iron = ore=20 mixed with the ooze of the swampy regions. from this ore and with crude=20 smelters, they separated the metal from the ore and began the fashioning = of=20 nails and tools similar to those they had left behind when they sailed = into the=20 unknown.
 Nailmaking in America during the Revolutionary period was = confined to=20 small shops where as amany as a thousand nails per day could be hand = forged by=20 skilled "nailers". After the Revolution, demand grew rapidly, = farmers=20 and their families would hand-make nails during the winter months to = supplement=20 their incomes. Demand further increased however, and supplies of = hand-made nails=20 were insufficent.
During the late 1700's the first cut nail = making=20 machines appeared, the first machine cut and "head" a nail in = one=20 operation was invented by Ezekiel Reed of Bridgewater,=20 MA.
The original nail factory was built on = the site of an=20 old cotton mill (Parker Mills) which had been shelled and burned by the = British=20 in the War of 1812. With the advent of the cut nail making machines came = the=20 establishment of Parker Mills, nail company in 1819, by Isaac and Jared = Pratt.=20 This later became known as the Tremont Nail = Company.
From PENNYWEIGHT to = PENNY (a small=20 "d" indicates penny) Originally the terms 8d and 10d were used = to=20 denote prices of nails per hundred count. However, due to the = fluctuations of=20 prices this significance was lost and the terms were retained to = designate=20 sizes. Example 2d =3D 1 inch, 8d =3D 2 1/2 inch, 100d =3D  8=20 inch.
Still=20 produced are , brads, fine finish, shingle, box, clout, common, slating, = boat,=20 common rosehead, hihdge, spikes, headless foundry, sheathing, firedoor = clinch,=20 floor, headless brads, chinch rosehead, wrought head, common siding and = masonry,=20 all sheet cut nails for those wanting the best available 17th century = nails.=20
The main building in use today was = constructed in=20 1848 on the site of the old fulling mill. Since 1819, Tremont Nail = Company has=20 endured through all the changes and hurried pace of modern industry. The = same=20 products are still being produced for customers who prefer the superior = holding=20 quality and durability of these time tested = nails.
For a century and a half sheet cut nails = has=20 maintained a reputation for skilled nail cutting that has built America=20 throughtout the test of time. Tremont Nail Company is America's oldest = nail=20 manufacturer.
Well = folks=20 now you have the story, write them for a "Nail Card" and the = next=20 project you can really nail it down.
__________________________________________________
In a message dated 98-12-11 21:39:56 EST, you=20 write:

<<  Comes with a little history about nails, = forged and=20 cut, you'll find it very interesting, don't know a price as I have had = my nail=20 board for a few years. >>

Would you mind sharing a bit of = that=20 info?  It's my understanding "cut" nails were one of the = first=20 things mass produced in the US.  They were cut with a shear from = flat stock=20 & "headed" by a machine.  Is this = correct?

NM =20

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE25E1.133D3400-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 12 Dec 1998 16:44:16 -0700 Usually folks smoke the mullein leaves rather than the flowers. With red willow bark (also known as Red Osier Dogwood, cornus species), you smoke the inner bark. The easiest way to gather it is getting it when the sap is up, then pealing the outer bark off seperately from the inner bark. Some folks say that traditionally this inner bark was roasted prior to smoking. I've never tried that, but will the next time. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 09 Dec 1998 18:15:25 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE239F.E4B9B2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pimout1-int.prodigy.net id AAA116578 Andrea: Talk to Longtrail she can answer you questions if she hasn't started on answering them and you can't get any better B tan then what sh= e sells. I like the way you are going about teaching us. Keep up the good work my friend. Later Jon T Longtrail ezra@midrivers.com ---------- Here is my second and final post on fabrics: For your first rectangle shirt, you may want to work with common fabrics readily available today and at reasonable cost. Among the choices are bleached and unbleached muslin. If you call around to your local fabric stores you might be able to locate some muslin in 36 inch widths which means that you have the option of making your garment utilizing the selvages in the seams (no seam finishing necessary!). Otherwise, muslin is commonly available in 45 inch and sometimes 60 inch widths. Possibly closest to original homespun in a modern-day fabric is Osnaburg cloth which should be located along with the muslins at your fabric tradi= ng post. Osnaburg is a coarse cotton cloth often made with part waste in it= , plain weave, medium to heavy in weight and resembling crash (are you stil= l with me?) "Crash" is a coarse fabric having a rough irregular surface obtained by weaving thick and uneven yarns. Back to Osnaburg=97it is sometimes us= ed unbleached for cement, grain and comparable types of containers.=20 Personally, I like the rural, pastoral look of Osnaburg but I prefer to not wear it next to my skin. It is important that you pre wash your yardage exactly as you intend to launder your finished garment. Your yardage will likely shrink pretty extensively with the first few washings. At least, run it through one complete laundering cycle before cutting out and sewing your garment. It = is a good idea to purchase some extra fabric to allow for pre wash shrinkage. I always purchase more fabric than I need for a project. So if you want too much fabric I suggest you purchase at least 5 yards or more. The fabrics types we are discussing (above mention) can shrink a surprising amount in the length of the goods. Here is something I came across in my research and I thought you might b= e interested: "Nail" was an archaic unit of measure representing 1/16th of = a yard of fabric (2 and =BC inches). It is the exact length of a metal nai= l used in building=97equivalent to the present-day 7d nail? The term "nail" was commonly used as opposed to inches. As I am thinking about it, nails wer= e hand forged by a blacksmith=97would that be correct? Please let me know. Thanks. I have a couple of questions I hope someone can answer: If I wear, say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would be required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress (individually)? Can someone please direct me to the best source of braintan? What is the best means of cleaning braintan leather without ruining the texture? Is braintan purchased by the individual skin or other? Next time I will show you how to draft your own shirt pattern. Bye for now. Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company Amoore2120@aol.com =09 ---------- ------=_NextPart_000_01BE239F.E4B9B2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andrea:  Talk to Longtrail she can = answer you questions if she hasn't started on answering them and you = can't get any better B tan then what she sells.  I like the way you = are going about teaching us.  Keep up the good work my friend. =  Later Jon T
Longtrail = ezra@midrivers.com

----------
From: Amoore2120@aol.com
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2
Date: Wednesday, = December 09, 1998 7:42 AM

Here is my second and final post on = fabrics:

For your first rectangle shirt, you may want to = work with common fabrics
readily available today and at reasonable = cost.  Among the choices are
bleached and unbleached muslin. =  If you call around to your local fabric
stores you might be = able to locate some muslin in 36 inch widths which means
that you = have the option of making your garment utilizing the selvages in = the
seams (no seam finishing necessary!).  Otherwise, muslin is = commonly available
in 45 inch and sometimes 60 inch = widths.

Possibly closest to original homespun in a = modern-day fabric is Osnaburg
cloth which should be located along = with the muslins at your fabric trading
post.  Osnaburg is a = coarse cotton cloth often made with part waste in it,
plain weave, = medium to heavy in weight and resembling crash (are you still
with = me?) "Crash" is a coarse fabric having a rough irregular = surface obtained
by weaving thick and uneven yarns.  Back to = Osnaburg=97it is sometimes used
unbleached for cement, grain and = comparable types of containers.  Personally,
I like the rural, = pastoral look of Osnaburg but I prefer to not wear it next
to my = skin.

It is important that you pre wash your yardage = exactly as you intend to
launder your finished garment.  Your = yardage will likely shrink pretty
extensively with the first few = washings.  At least, run it through one
complete laundering = cycle before cutting out and sewing your garment. It is a
good idea = to purchase some extra fabric to allow for pre wash = shrinkage.

I always purchase more fabric than I need for a = project.  So if you want too
much fabric I suggest you purchase = at least 5 yards or more.  The fabrics
types we are discussing = (above mention) can shrink a surprising amount in the
length of the = goods.

Here is something I came across in my research and I = thought you might be
interested: "Nail" was an archaic unit = of measure representing 1/16th of a
yard of fabric (2 and =BC = inches).  It is the exact length of a metal nail used
in = building=97equivalent to the present-day 7d nail?  The term = "nail" was
commonly used as opposed to inches.  As I = am thinking about it, nails were
hand forged by a blacksmith=97would = that be correct?  Please let me know.
Thanks.

I = have a couple of questions I hope someone can answer:

If I wear, = say a size 10, how many individual skins of braintan would = be
required to make a vest, fringed jacket, and a dress = (individually)?

Can someone please direct me to the best source = of braintan?

What is the best means of cleaning braintan leather = without ruining the
texture?

Is braintan purchased by the = individual skin or other?

Next time I will show you how to = draft your own shirt pattern.  Bye for now.

Andrea Moore, = Sewing Designer   Sewing Design Company
Amoore2120@aol.com




----------

------=_NextPart_000_01BE239F.E4B9B2E0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cynthia R Pierce Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 13 Dec 1998 10:11:18 -0500 unsubscribe CPierce@InfoAve.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cwebbbpdr@juno.com (Charlie P. Webb) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CSMLA Date: 13 Dec 1998 08:37:07 -0700 Barry Conner, I would like for you to contact me off list if possible. my e-mail address is cwebbbpdr@juno.com Thank you for your time. C Webb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "G. Pedro Kinner" Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 13 Dec 1998 08:04:11 -0800 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Munroe Crutchley" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the price of nails.... Date: 13 Dec 1998 09:37:55 -0800 > << Think about the name 4 penny 6penny 8 penny...I > have heard originals that they werename this due to the worth of a > nail of that particular size >> I haven't been following the nail thread carefully, so this may have already been mentioned: I heard somewhere that the "penny" designation of nails referred to weight (i.e. pennyweight). Any comments? Munroe Crutchley Grants Pass, OR rocrutch@cdsnet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tremont Nail Company Date: 13 Dec 1998 13:22:52 EST In a message dated 98-12-12 17:11:01 EST, you write: << Tremont Nail Company is America's oldest nail manufacturer. Well folks now you have the story, write them for a "Nail Card" and the next project you can really nail it down. >> I checked their web site & they said they're still using the same machinery to make the nails they used in the mid to late 1800's. The only major change has been replacing the water wheel power with big electric motors about 1940. Evidently a Co that believes in tradition! They also have free catalogs for all 3 companies in the Maze Group -- Maze, Stronghold, & Tremont. Thanks for sharing this -- it isn't all on the web site. Sounds like a good source for some of our period projects. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the price of nails.... Date: 13 Dec 1998 11:29:52 -0700 From PENNYWEIGHT to PENNY (a small "d" indicates penny) Originally the terms 8d and 10d were used to denote prices of nails per hundred count. However, due to the fluctuations of prices this significance was lost and the terms were retained to designate sizes. Example 2d = 1 inch, 8d = 2 1/2 inch, 100d = 8 inch. Buck ________________ -----Original Message----- >> << Think about the name 4 penny 6penny 8 penny...I >> have heard originals that they werename this due to the worth of a >> nail of that particular size >> > >I haven't been following the nail thread carefully, so this may have >already been mentioned: I heard somewhere that the "penny" designation of >nails referred to weight (i.e. pennyweight). Any comments? > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR >rocrutch@cdsnet.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tremont Nail Company Date: 13 Dec 1998 11:31:53 -0700 Have used their nails for years on my equipage, "lookers" thought they were hand-made or originals, now the cats out of the bag. Buck ___________ -----Original Message----- >In a message dated 98-12-12 17:11:01 EST, you write: > ><< Tremont Nail Company is America's oldest nail manufacturer. > Well folks now you have the story, write them for a "Nail Card" and the next >project you can really nail it down. >> > >I checked their web site & they said they're still using the same machinery to >make the nails they used in the mid to late 1800's. The only major change has >been replacing the water wheel power with big electric motors about 1940. >Evidently a Co that believes in tradition! They also have free catalogs for >all 3 companies in the Maze Group -- Maze, Stronghold, & Tremont. Thanks for >sharing this -- it isn't all on the web site. Sounds like a good source for >some of our period projects. > >NM > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CSMLA Date: 13 Dec 1998 11:34:36 -0700 What's up Charlie, ________________ -----Original Message----- >Barry Conner, >I would like for you to contact me off list if possible. >my e-mail address is cwebbbpdr@juno.com >Thank you for your time. >C Webb > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 12 Dec 1998 17:11:32 -0800 Hello the list. Is "mullen" the same plant as "mules ear"? I know it is sometimes confused as being the same...............but is there a consensus? ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 13 Dec 1998 13:52:22 -0700 Question: Is mullein the same plant as mules ear? No, they are totally unrelated. Mules ear is a native compositae (related to sunflowers), mullein is a non-native and I'm not sure of its family. They do look a bit similar in the spring before the stalks shoot up, as they both have large leaves in a 'basal rosette' (meaning going out in all directions from the same basic point, at the bottom of the plant). Mullein leaves are very fuzzy. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Date: 14 Dec 1998 08:58:54 EST In a message dated 98-12-11 21:17:49 EST, you write: << Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes meant. He told me that was the price per hundred nails. 6d being much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper. >> In one of the old theatre text books I have in a box somewhere (scenery construction) it said that the 6d = 100 6 penny nails based on weight for weight. And that that was based on the old English Penny which was a large coin compared to our penny today. I wish I could locate the text but there are to many books in the storage room all boxed up to find it easily. Your humble servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: IMPORTANT Cloth Yardage Facts Date: 14 Dec 1998 10:47:33 EST CLOTH YARDAGE FACTS =09When working with fabric yardage it is necessary to square up the goods before cutting out your pattern. The weaving process results in lengthwise= and crosswise "yarns" (the threads used for weaving cloth are correctly called yarns) intersecting at right angles. When the fabric is released from the loom after weaving the individual yarns relax in an irregular pattern caus= ing the angle of the intersecting yarns to be thrown out of alignment. Washin= g the goods, as you did in pre washing your fabric, helps to realign the yar= ns. =09Your goal is to coax the lengthwise and crosswise edges of the cloth in= to perfect right angles before cutting out your garment pieces. Here=92s why= : If a garment is cut "off grain" (with the grain running crooked) the finished garment will twist awkwardly off to one side (crooked). It will look terrible, be extremely uncomfortable to wear, you will hate it, and there = is absolutely nothing you will ever be able to do to correct it. Did you eve= r purchase a pair of denim jeans with one leg twisted off to the side whippi= ng around your leg and throwing the inseam and side seam off, and driving you nuts because you could not get it straightened out? (this has happened to= me and is one of the BIG reasons I learned to draft my own jeans pattern and started making my own jeans). =09You will notice that your yardage has two selvage edges running paralle= l to the lengthwise of the fabric. The two crosswise ends are raw edges. Begi= n by truing (straightening) the raw edges. This can be done in one of two ways= . One is to gently tear across the width of the fabric (selvage to selvage) = as close to the raw edge as is feasible (this is for the purpose of conservin= g fabric). Make a crosswise snip through the selvage and tear gently, repositioning your hands every few inches so as not to distort the fabric. The fabric will automatically tear across the warp yarns adjacent to a wef= t yarn (the crosswise yarns in fabric running at right angles to the selvage edge are called the "weft" with the lengthwise yarns running parallel to t= he selvage edge the "warp"). =09If your fabric is too thick to tear or not a basket type weave, you can= true it using the second method which is to thread trace across the width of th= e fabric by pulling on a weft thread. In essence, you will be removing a we= ft thread (yarn) which will leave a visible line (groove) that you can see to= cut along from selvage to selvage. Here=92s how it works: snip through the se= lvage and pick up a weft yarn. Now pull. This will probably break the thread. Smooth the little gathers and you will see the cutting line (where the thr= ead was removed). Cut along the groove. When you come to the place where you= r previous thread popped and you can nor longer see your mark, spread your fabric and pick up another thread and pull. Continue the above process un= til you have reached the other selvage edge. =09Now that your fabric is trued on both ends, you can square up the goods= (to eliminate the twist in the yardage). Spread your fabric on a table or workbench. If your goods are square, the diagonal measurements, taken diagonally from corner to corner, in both directions, will measure equally= . If the goods are not square, one diagonal measurement will be longer than = the other. If this is the case, you will have to make them even. =09Fabric is unstable on the bias (bias is the diagonal that intersects th= e lengthwise and crosswise grains with true bias a 45 degree angle to any straight edge when the grains are parallel). Grab one of the short corner= s and reach across the goods (to the opposite selvage edge) and pull the goo= ds on the diagonal (working your way along the entire length of the goods) stretching on the bias. You can clamp the fabric using your foot if neede= d. Recheck using a carpenter square to determine if you are finished or if mo= re pulling is necessary. After you are satisfied, you are ready to proceed. =09Next time I will show you how to use your body measurements to draft a rectangle shirt pattern that will be a custom fit! Best Regards, Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company Amoore2120@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Body Measurements--yours not mine! Date: 14 Dec 1998 10:43:06 EST Dear Friends, =09In an effort to keep moving along with the rectangle shirt project, I h= ave prepared the next two steps in the process. For clarity, I will post them separately in sequence. If I have been unclear, please ask about it befor= e we move onto the next item(s). MEASUREING UP! =09We begin by taking a few minimal HONEST body measurements. This is to = insure the success of your efforts and investment. I will show you the process a= nd explain how it works. =09We will have a total of 7 measurements. On a piece of paper, create a vertical column numbering 1 through 7 and label as follows: 1. Shoulder to hem: Mid thigh 2. Chest (body girth) 3. Arm length (shoulder bone located at top of arm) to wrist with ARM BEN= T 4. Shoulder length (base of neck to shoulder bone) 5. Neck (collar size) 6. Top arm girth 7. Hand size (the smallest loop through which the hand will pass freely) =09With a flexible measuring tape begin by determining the desired length = of the finished garment. From what I have seen most of the original MtMan cloth shirts were long (mid thigh). So your first measurement is from the top o= f the shoulder located at the crest of the arm down to the intended finished bottom edge of the garment. Record this measurement with # 1. =09Measurement #2 is around the fullest part of your body. The goal here = is to get an accurate body girth measurement (whether that be chest, stomach, or other). Take the measurement by wrapping the tape around the fullest part= of your body. Slip your finger underneath the tape to allow some "give" to t= he reading. Record your result with #2. =09#3 is arm length from the shoulder bone to the wrist WITH THE ARM BENT. Place your fist on your hip with your elbow pushed outward. With the tape= at the crest of the arm, outline the outside edge of the arm (around the elbo= w) and on down to the wrist. Record your results with #3. =09Measurement #4 is the shoulder length which is measured from the base o= f the neck to the shoulder bone. Record your measurement with #4. =09The neck measurement or collar size is #5. This is taken where you lik= e your shirt collars to "sit." Wrap the tape around your neck in a comfortable fashion and record your result with #5. =09The top arm girth is #6. Wrap the tape comfortably around the fullest = part of your upper arm. Record your findings with # 6. =09Just one more measurement and we are through. Hand size, #7 is taken b= y determining the smallest loop through which the hand will pass freely. Re= cord under #7. =09Please do not be concerned if you do not have convenient access to a fl= exible measuring tape. This is the whole fun of making replica clothing=97to hav= e the opportunity to improvise! Any type of string will do nicely by marking of= f the distance and using a straight edge to determine the correct length. =09Next, we will discuss some important yardage facts after which I will s= how you how to use your body measurements to create a rectangle shirt pattern = that will fit you comfortably. Regards, Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company Amoore2120@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Some questions Date: 14 Dec 1998 11:16:13 EST Dear Friends, I just thought of a couple of things I would like to ask regarding the capote: Where can I purchase wool blankets with an authentic Indian design rather than the bold bands that I have seen? This is not to criticize the colored band(s) design, but rather I am interested in exploring other design options as well. Was braintan used to accent the original wool blanket capotes, on yokes, sleeves, fringe trim, other . . . how about beadwork? This is just slightly off-topic and I don't want to upset anyone on the list by posting off-topic but I just have to ask, so please forgive . . . does anyone know the step-by-step process for making hand made brooms from the cultivation methods to the actual construction and lacing (materials used) of the finished broom? I saw what I believe to have been a hand made broom (some time ago) leaning against a neighbor's shed, which had to have been hand made as it had a very interesting appearance. I speculate that everyone at one time made their own brooms from broom straw??? If so, what is broom straw and how does it differ from the common variety? If anyone knows something about this, I would love to hear about it. Thank you. I just noticed that my recent (2) sewing posts will enter your mailbox, as they did mine, in the wrong order--I should have numbered them. Until later, Andrea Moore Amoore2120@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mill, Kirk" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Some questions Date: 14 Dec 1998 11:45:44 -0500 > Where can I purchase wool blankets with an authentic Indian design > rather > than the bold bands that I have seen? This is not to criticize the > colored > band(s) design, but rather I am interested in exploring other design > options > as well. > [Mill, Kirk] and while we are on the subject, what is the proper pronunciation of capote? > Was braintan used to accent the original wool blanket capotes, on > yokes, > sleeves, fringe trim, other . . . how about beadwork? > > This is just slightly off-topic and I don't want to upset anyone on > the list > by posting off-topic but I just have to ask, so please forgive . . . does > anyone know the step-by-step process for making hand made brooms from the > cultivation methods to the actual construction and lacing (materials used) > of > the finished broom? I saw what I believe to have been a hand made broom > (some > time ago) leaning against a neighbor's shed, which had to have been hand > made > as it had a very interesting appearance. I speculate that everyone at one > time made their own brooms from broom straw??? If so, what is broom straw > and > how does it differ from the common variety? If anyone knows something > about > this, I would love to hear about it. Thank you. [Mill, Kirk] I got a book from the library tiltled IIRC Colonial Crafts that had a very thorough description of broom making. If you are interested, I can go back to the library for the exact title and ISBN, or I could just photocopy the chapter. KirK Mill > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions Date: 14 Dec 1998 10:35:53 -0700 Pictures of the Resv. Period Indians in the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterlies, show plain HBC and Witney "stripped blanket coats (capotes). Seems the fur, leather and fancy bead work started after 1900. Today you see all kinds of fancy beading, fur collars, etc. at rendezvous and different events; from what I have been able to find (haven't looked very hard though-not useable for traveling or working) most bead work on wool is seen on blankets, like beaded blanket strips, the wearer holds the blanket over the shoulders and pulled shut at the front. The pictures of all the fancy bead work, leather trimmings and long fringe like in some of Remington's works would never get off the front porch, the wearer would be hog-tied a 100 yards from camp, when his beadwork or long fringe got caught in the under brush. When you see this type of clothing ask the wearer how far he has traveled in this get up, or how many times has he slept in these fancy clothes; he will tell you these are his city clothes or rendezvous outfit. We have all had these garments (can be very expensive), and have traded them to others that just do the rendezvous and usually don't wonder to far from the camp, you will never see them in a camp game that has any kind of contact. You may try Northwest Traders or the Blanket Brigrade for different colors and designs of blankets, also Crazy Crow. I sure other will have other ideas on this, so you will have to weigh everthing, but research is the true answer and you may want to contact the Museum of the Fur Trade for their idea on the subject. Buck dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ -----Original Message----- >Dear Friends, > > I just thought of a couple of things I would like to ask regarding the >capote: > > Where can I purchase wool blankets with an authentic Indian design rather >than the bold bands that I have seen? This is not to criticize the colored >band(s) design, but rather I am interested in exploring other design options >as well. > > Was braintan used to accent the original wool blanket capotes, on yokes, >sleeves, fringe trim, other . . . how about beadwork? > > This is just slightly off-topic and I don't want to upset anyone on the list >by posting off-topic but I just have to ask, so please forgive . . . does >anyone know the step-by-step process for making hand made brooms from the >cultivation methods to the actual construction and lacing (materials used) of >the finished broom? I saw what I believe to have been a hand made broom (some >time ago) leaning against a neighbor's shed, which had to have been hand made >as it had a very interesting appearance. I speculate that everyone at one >time made their own brooms from broom straw??? If so, what is broom straw and >how does it differ from the common variety? If anyone knows something about >this, I would love to hear about it. Thank you. > > I just noticed that my recent (2) sewing posts will enter your mailbox, as >they did mine, in the wrong order--I should have numbered them. > >Until later, >Andrea Moore >Amoore2120@aol.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: MtMan-List: Andrea Date: 14 Dec 1998 10:54:06 -0700 I know we're not supposed to waste bandwidth just saying thanks, but Andrea, wow thanks! This is great information. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions Date: 14 Dec 1998 11:00:18 -0700 We get our capote blankets from army navy stores for this same reason, that we prefer the more muted colors. Can't say that the coloring is authentic or not though. But one can get really fluffy warm wool army blankets at the northern army-navy stores. Brooms---can't say I've ever made one from broom straw, but I do no a bit about it. Broom straw is the tassels from a specific variety of corn known as broom corn. You can get seeds for it from most heirloom seed companys, such as Seeds of Change at www.seedsofchange.com . I've helped grow it, and the cultivation is basically the same as for any type of corn (ie, likes rich soil, light-frost hardy, etc.). There are some craftspeople in Oregon who make traditional brooms from broom straw....and they come in two natural straw colors....golden, and a beautiful burnt red. Thats all I know... Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Drafting the Pattern Date: 14 Dec 1998 12:58:17 EST Dear Friends, I have the drafting information ready and think I will send it along. This is all I will be able to do for a while as I have noticed that Christmas is just around the corner and I have other deadlines to meet. Let me know if some of the information is not clear and I will help. DRAFTING THE RECTANGLE SHIRT PATTERN I like snug fitting clothing, so I am giving you two design possibilities: one for a generous shirt and one for a slightly more fitted garment--although the cloth rectangle shirt is never considered close-fitting. Begin with a large rectangle which measures in length, 2 X the Shoulder to Hem (corresponding to #1 on your body measurement chart). For example, in my case, my finished garment length measures 37 inches (measured from shoulder to mid-thigh) so I will draw my rectangle 74 inches in length. For the width, you can utilize the selvage edges of your cloth goods and have an ample garment or you can draw the width of the rectangle half the chest measurement (#2 on your chart) + 6 inches or more to suit your tastes. Locate the (crosswise) center of your rectangle and sketch in the neck opening. Figure the crosswise measurement Half the Neck Size (#5 on your chart) and draw in a conservative oval shape. The slit is positioned on the garment front and measures 8 to 10 inches in length at the center. For the sleeve pattern (you will later cut two on the fold of the goods), another rectangle, start with the length which corresponds to your arm length (#3 on your chart). The width, if you are using the selvage edges, is already determined by the width of your goods. If you want less fabric in your sleeve, as I do, then draw the top width using measurement #6, Arm Girth + 6 inches (or more as desired). You can either leave the bottom of the sleeve full width of the rectangle as established by the sleeve top measurement, or do as I did which is to taper (to) the wrist. I drew my wrist width Hand Size + 2 inches (#7 on my measurement chart) centering the shorter measurement. For more fullness at the wrist, draw wider. Cut 2 gussets 8 inches square. If you are having trouble with the above instructions, I have prepared a measurement chart and a diagram sheet for figuring your draft which will help clarify the process. Or you are welcome to ask for the assistance you need. I am happy to send you copies if you send a return address and $2.00 to the following: Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company P. O. Box 20171 Spokane, WA 99204 PATTERN LAYOUT Fold your goods lengthwise meeting the selvage edges and lining up your straightened raw edges. Place your sleeve pattern lengthwise on the goods. Now place your large rectangle pattern lengthwise on a single layer of goods. Do not cut the opening for the head and front slit at this point. You can cut out your gussets now or wait. Next time we will discuss construction decisions. Actually, I think it is a good idea if you do not proceed to cut out your garment until we have discussed construction. I REALLY must be running along! This should keep you busy for awhile. Best Regards, Andrea Moore, Sewing Designer Sewing Design Company Amoore2120@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rag Rugs (floor & bed) Date: 14 Dec 1998 10:33:37 -0800 (PST) I don't know if everyone did this, but an aunt of mine had an old rope bottom bed and she had a braided rug between the ropes and her tick (straw on bottom, and feather on top), this kept the ticks from squeezing down between the ropes. ---Amoore2120@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/11/98 8:20:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, > huv@mail.bright.net writes: > > << Rag rugs were mentioned as being a way to recycle cloth various articles > that I have read showed they were for the beds not the floor even though > they were called rag rugs interesting thought >> > > Interesting to me is rag rugs for the bed! Were they used for blankets and > made similiar to rugs for the floor: tearing strips of cloth goods, braiding > and then whipping the edges to form a coil? If this is the case, the bed rugs > would have been extremely heavy and thick. Or were they perhaps instead used > as a matress pad or incorporated into the matress itself, or other? I feel > like I am missing something really obvious here and would like to hear more > about bed rugs, how they were made, intended purpose, how they differed from > their cousin the braided floor rug, etc. > > Best regards, > Andrea Moore > > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "F.Vital" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions Date: 14 Dec 1998 14:07:54 -0500 Amoore2120@aol.com wrote: > > > This is just slightly off-topic and I don't want to upset anyone on the list > by posting off-topic but I just have to ask, so please forgive . . . does > anyone know the step-by-step process for making hand made brooms from the > cultivation methods to the actual construction and lacing (materials used) of > the finished broom? I saw what I believe to have been a hand made broom (some > time ago) leaning against a neighbor's shed, which had to have been hand made > as it had a very interesting appearance. I speculate that everyone at one > time made their own brooms from broom straw??? If so, what is broom straw and > how does it differ from the common variety? If anyone knows something about > this, I would love to hear about it. Thank you. the book "Indian Handcrafts" by C. Keith Wilbur shows how to make a broom from a large branch. The "straw" is acctually thinly split wood. -- Frank Vital Mechanical Engineers design weapon systems. Civil Engineers design targets. http://www.auburn.edu/~vitalfr/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions Date: 14 Dec 1998 12:43:15 -0700 White with black "strips" or "shoots" were the most common in 3 - 3 1/2 pt. from the mid 1600's until the early 1800's, then traders demanded larger blanks like 4 pts. and more color, like the green, blue, red, etc. Buck dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ -----Original Message----- >We get our capote blankets from army navy stores for this same reason, that >we prefer the more muted colors. Can't say that the coloring is authentic or >not though................... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions Date: 14 Dec 1998 12:28:38 -0800 Andrea, I see that Barry Conner has given you some good advise on blankets but let me add my 2 cents in here. If you want to wear your blanket coat or capote (pronounced 'ka poat', as in 'oat', in my part of the world) in town then Pendllton Woolen Mills makes "indian design" blankets that are very colorful. They are not authentic to the pre 1840 re-enactment scene though. Whitney and other blanket makers make blankets with narrow stripes rather than the broad stripes you wish to stay away form. They are called Chiefs Blankets in the Panther Primitives catalogue. Again, the very colorful and geometric design filled blankets available today don't have a place in the reenactment scene. The same goes for the trimmings you were asking about. Barry made some good points on this subject and again, unless you just want a fancy wool coat to wear on the ski slopes, a capote should not be thus trimmed and decorated for the reenactment scene if authenticity is a goal. It has been said by researchers that even fringe made from the blanket material itself was not a normal feature on original capotes. There is a picture of a beautiful wool coat, being worn by a white man, on the cover of the book "Astoria" by Washington Irving. I don't know how authentic it is or whether the artist just used a fertile imagination, but if I were going to make another coat for my 1800's reenacting I think I would copy this coat. It has decoration but is much different than what we usually think of as the way clothing was decorated on the frontier. It is also a much more well designed and fitted garment than the common capote. It's not even "reservation era", with reference to the bead work and leather trim and fringe that Barry talked about. See if you can find a copy of the book. Remember that Indians got their blankets from europeans during this time and there were not a lot of "design options". Wide bands, narrow bands, and perhaps no bands but nothing else that I am aware of. I hope this has been clarifying, I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Amoore2120@aol.com wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I just thought of a couple of things I would like to ask regarding the > capote: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: A few items . . . Date: 14 Dec 1998 17:58:36 EST =09I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther rega= rding replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person=92s clothi= ng, I believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individual= s from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a representation of = a person=92s personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore, I believe= a certain amount of respect is warranted. =09My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment, expa= nded options, and freedom of choice. There is no place in my work for setting strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently discu= ss different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my = own personal choices and helping other people to make theirs. My interest in replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and design choices judged. =09If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have reache= d an impasse because this is the way I work and live. I will probably really c= atch it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming fro= m. Thank you, Andrea Moore ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 14 Dec 1998 17:09:13 +0100 A while back there was considerable discussion about which way was up or down or left or right regarding rivers in the old days. On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any information (such as period journals or writings, for example) about how folks in the late 18th and early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel distances? While I can think of some rather tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real info available? People in historic journals often give rather specific numbers as to how far they traveled each day, and they are often fairly close. Thanks. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . . Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:21:13 -0600 Andrea, In your original posting you asked for "authentic" Indian designs for the blankets and the respondent rightly posted there aren't any. You asked if braintan and beads were used to accent and again the response was correct based on the phrasing of your questions. You seem to have taken offense at answers phrased properly based on your questions.=20 John... At 05:58 PM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote: > I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther= regarding >replica and other types of clothing.=A0 The subject of any person=92s= clothing, I >believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individuals >from past times or those in the present.=A0 Clothing is a representation of= a >person=92s personal expression in a very direct way.=A0 Therefore, I= believe a >certain amount of respect is warranted. > > My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment,= expanded >options, and freedom of choice.=A0 There is no place in my work for setting >strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently= discuss >different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my= own >personal choices and helping other people to make theirs.=A0 My interest in >replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and >design choices judged.=A0=20 > > If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have reached= an >impasse because this is the way I work and live.=A0 I will probably really catch >it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming= from. > >Thank you, >Andrea Moore >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:27:25 -0600 A pennyweight is a standard of measure used in the TROY standard of weight. It has been standardized at 24 grains or 1555.2mg. 20 pennyweight equals one TROY ounce and 12 TROY ounces equals 1 TROY pound. As example; no 16d nail weighs 3/4 of a TROY ounce and 100 of them weigh= well in excess of 3/4 ounce. Some charlatans, even today, will try and deal precious metals from the unsuspecting by throwing a penny on the scale. I've weighed many English= and American large and small cents and have yet to find a real correlation of weight to denomination. Of course until the mid-1800's weight and measure lacked strong standards. As the abbreviation "d" is taken from the Roman "denarius" for penny it may have originally referenced the weight of a Roman penny which I've not had the chance to weigh and compare. Not everything in every book is accurate. I have early sets of weights which were made to differing standards and some which were obviously made to hoodwink the unsuspecting. The designation for nails was based on price not weight as was previously posted. A 16d finish nail is much slimmer in cross section than a 16d= common nail. Headed nails are also heavier within a given size which today only references length. In the early nineteenth century a wider variety of nails was available than today -- even from Tremont. Not every nail on Tremont's sample board is still available from them. In the 20+ years I've been= buying from them several have been discontinued for lack of interest.=20 I've not before heard of "saving" thread for reuse (as thread) from worn garments. My experience with traditional thread is it isn't worth saving= when the garment is worn out. I would be interested in the reference the information was drawn from. John... At 08:58 AM 12/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-12-11 21:17:49 EST, you write: > ><< Some years ago at Williamsburg I was watching a nailmaking > demonstration and asked the smith just what the various 'penny' sizes > meant.=A0 He told me that was the price per hundred nails.=A0 6d being > much smaller than 16d, so were cheaper. >=A0 >> > >In one of the old theatre text books I have in a box somewhere (scenery >construction) it said that the 6d =3D 100 6 penny nails based on weight for >weight.=A0 And that that was based on the old English Penny which was a= large >coin compared to our penny today.=A0 I wish I could locate the text but= there >are to many books in the storage room all boxed up to find it easily.=A0=20 > >Your humble servant > >C.T. Oakes >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 14 Dec 1998 18:03:14 -0800 Also, if I might ask...how did these folks know how far they actually traveled? I once told a friend I had walked about 6 miles however when measured it was a whopping 4 3/4 miles! How embarrassing! Sheesh! MB Allen Chronister wrote: > A while back there was considerable discussion > about which way was up or down or left or right > regarding rivers in the old days. > On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any > information (such as period journals or writings, > for example) about how folks in the late 18th and > early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel > distances? While I can think of some rather > tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real > info available? People in historic journals often > give rather specific numbers as to how far they > traveled each day, and they are often fairly > close. Thanks. > Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tomactor@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 14 Dec 1998 21:31:07 EST Hi, Allen The Mormons had an odometer. There is one of them in the Scottsbluff NM. I have picture somewhere. I'll dig it out for you. I have also heard they assigned one of the kids to count the revolutions of a wheel. The kids probably invented the odometer. Tom Laidlaw In a message dated 12/14/98 6:03:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, Buckskinner@gbis.com writes: << A while back there was considerable discussion > about which way was up or down or left or right > regarding rivers in the old days. > On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any > information (such as period journals or writings, > for example) about how folks in the late 18th and > early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel > distances? While I can think of some rather > tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real > info available? People in historic journals often > give rather specific numbers as to how far they > traveled each day, and they are often fairly > close. Thanks. > Allen Chronister >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tomactor@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 14 Dec 1998 21:37:34 EST This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_913689458_boundary Content-ID: <0_913689458@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Attached is a picture of an odometer which was used by the Mormons. It resides at Scottsbluff, NM Tom Laidlaw In a message dated 12/14/98 6:03:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, Buckskinner@gbis.com writes: << Also, if I might ask...how did these folks know how far they actually traveled? I once told a friend I had walked about 6 miles however when measured it was a whopping 4 3/4 miles! How embarrassing! Sheesh! MB Allen Chronister wrote: > A while back there was considerable discussion > about which way was up or down or left or right > regarding rivers in the old days. > On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any > information (such as period journals or writings, > for example) about how folks in the late 18th and > early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel > distances? While I can think of some rather > tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real > info available? People in historic journals often > give rather specific numbers as to how far they > traveled each day, and they are often fairly > close. 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Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:45:50 +0000 Dear Andrea, I hope that no one was 'judging your tastes, etc... I believe what was said was only in keeping a historical perspective (which is what the AMM is all about). When reading your blanket question, my thought was - Pendelton blankets is what you want- These blankets are beautiful, My father has an extensive collection. They are not correct to our Fur Trade period (pre 1850). For us (AMM Members) these blankets are not appropriate for our area of interest. I don't think judgement was being passed, just the fact that these blankets were post 1850. I just made a 'Canoe Capote' from a Whitney Horse Rug. This is a blanket which is slightly smaller than a 4 point, but 15% heavier (thicker). I chose this blanket for its 'R' value, ie warmth. Is it representitive of a blanket at a 1830's RDVS, No..... but it will keep me warm when I'm in the snow and woods. I appreciate all of your postings, i bought an expandable file yesterday to keep my collection in. I think that most, if not all, of us appreciate your time and efforts in educating us about sewing, etc... We are benefitting from your knowledge and expertise, please don't be offended by some of our 'purists' thoughts. We are about authenticity, In an AMM camp. Of course there are many other areas of reenactment. Do I here 3 Cheers for Andrea Boys???? Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 14 Dec 1998 22:00:08 EST Tom, thanks for that very cool picture. makes me think that Paul Bunyon musta been the Mormon that wore it. LOL. Could you please describe how it operated? Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tomactor@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 14 Dec 1998 22:21:26 EST In a message dated 12/14/98 7:15:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, RR1LA@aol.com writes: << Tom, thanks for that very cool picture. makes me think that Paul Bunyon musta been the Mormon that wore it. LOL. Could you please describe how it operated? Thanks. >> Somewhere, somehow, there was a connection to the wagon wheel. I guess it's like an adding machine: Every so many turns of the wagon wheel turns one notch of the gear and that gear turns another. and that's an odometer, not a chronometer. The wagon wore it, not the person. LOL :) Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . . Date: 14 Dec 1998 20:27:57 -0700 Andrea, In the past 20-25 years people have come forth, with their ideas of how people would have dressed or would have looked (in their own mind), and refused to just study history, or look at what was being sent on trade lists, look at artist's work that were there. They preferred to make them fancier than they were and we ended up with these Hollywood characters seen for years, we saw it in the movies, it must be correct. Wrong, that's why in the last 10 years or so members from the historical societies and other groups that have made a life long study of the varoius time frames are now being hired by the movie makers to correct some of these clothing mistakes, matters of appearance or the way the public will see the character, trying to give a more correct image for that period, etc. Look at what has been done in late years with "Black Robe", "Last of the Moc", "Dances with Wolves", "Son of Morning Star", etc., people like Cathy Smith, Jerry Farthenhold and Jerry Crandall (known for their dedicated research) were used to handle clothing and weapons, for a correct appearance of what was used or worn. Not someone's personal taste, but what was available and documentated in journals or shown in works of art by artist's that were there at that time. It all comes down to research and then more research, we have found mistakes that "people in the know" have made on dates, locations and who or what was going on at a given time on this "list", all through research and comparing notes, not just what one person feels is his or her personal thing. You ask a question we try and give you a correct answer, don't go with what you see in the movies as being always correct or at an event or rendezvous, in the larger settlements of the 1700's and 1800's the wealthy had fancy clothing, but on the out line areas these people had to work to survive and everthing they had was used to work in, relax if possible in, or go to church in, just common plain clothes were the norm. When they finally wore out they were used to patch other clothes or make bags, etc. and finally saved to be broke down to make paper in the settlements. Its all there in black and white, journals, books, and letters of the time. Most folks worked they didn't have the option to stand around and look nice or show off what they had, they were to busy trying to stay alive and keep their families alive. Buck ___________________________ -----Original Message----- I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther regarding replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person’s clothing, I believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individuals from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a representation of a person’s personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore, I believe a certain amount of respect is warranted. My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment, expanded options, and freedom of choice. There is no place in my work for setting strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently discuss different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my own personal choices and helping other people to make theirs. My interest in replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and design choices judged. If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have reached an impasse because this is the way I work and live. I will probably really catch it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming from. Thank you, Andrea Moore ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 14 Dec 1998 20:29:52 -0700 Tom is correct, read about this device in the museum in Salt Lake a few years ago. Buck ___________ -----Original Message----- >Hi, Allen > >The Mormons had an odometer. There is one of them in the Scottsbluff NM. I >have picture somewhere. I'll dig it out for you. I have also heard they >assigned one of the kids to count the revolutions of a wheel. The kids >probably invented the odometer. > >Tom Laidlaw > >In a message dated 12/14/98 6:03:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, >Buckskinner@gbis.com writes: > > ><< A while back there was considerable discussion > > about which way was up or down or left or right > > regarding rivers in the old days. > > On a slightly related topic, does anyone have any > > information (such as period journals or writings, > > for example) about how folks in the late 18th and > > early 19th centuries estimated their daily travel > > distances? While I can think of some rather > > tedious ways to maybe do it, is there any real > > info available? People in historic journals often > > give rather specific numbers as to how far they > > traveled each day, and they are often fairly > > close. Thanks. > > Allen Chronister >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . . Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:49:14 -0800 --------------5EFED747CC4850A755CFDB10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net id VAA13426 Dear Andrea, Am I one of those who gave you insult? My most sincere apologies. That, m= ost assuredly was not my intent. As has been pointed out to you though, you asked for a= dvise and others opinions. My efforts to be of assistance came from the assumption = that you might no be familiar with the fact of life that this is a history list and we p= repare for and attend reenactment functions where yours and our choice of clothing, pers= onal as that may be, is judged by our peers and there are things we may not wear or do= at these functions lest we not be welcome. That having been said, your personal choice for dress away from these ree= nactments of history is certainly yours to make. You may exercise your gift for creati= vity to your hearts desire. At historical functions your freedom to be creative is lim= ited to what is historically correct for the time period set and deviating from that is t= o show great disrespect for those folks who are in attendance and working very hard to= be historically correct. That is why we have discussions of what we think wa= s how things were done. So that we may learn form one another and grow in our understa= nding of how it was truly done in a bygone era, not how we think they should have done it= . One of the most onerous things to hear a "player" say with regard to this sport of h= istorical reenacting is "Well they would have used it if they would have had it". M= isses the whole point of doing this. I hope we now have a better understanding of each other. I might apologiz= e for what undoubtedly sounds like a lecture but you seemed to invite further expla= nation and as one of the first to try to help you answer your original questions, I tho= ught it my place. In the best spirit of friendship, I will remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Amoore2120@aol.com wrote: > I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any fart= her regarding > replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person=92s clo= thing, I > believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individ= uals > from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a representation = of a > person=92s personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore, I beli= eve a > certain amount of respect is warranted. > > My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyme= nt, expanded > options, and freedom of choice. There is no place in my work for setti= ng > strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently di= scuss > different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making = my own > personal choices and helping other people to make theirs. My interest = in > replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing an= d > design choices judged. > > If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may hav= e reached an > impasse because this is the way I work and live. I will probably reall= y catch > it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming = from. > > Thank you, > Andrea Moore --------------5EFED747CC4850A755CFDB10 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net id VAA13426 Dear Andrea,

Am I one of those who gave you insult? My most sincere apologies. That= , most assuredly was not my intent. As has been pointed out to you though, you asked for advise and others opinions. My efforts to be of assistance came from the assumption that you might no be familiar with the fact of life that this is a history list and we prepare for and attend reenactmen= t functions where yours and our choice of clothing, personal as that may be, is judged by our peers and there are things we may not wear= or do at these functions lest we not be welcome.

That having been said, your personal choice for dress away from these reenactments of history is certainly yours to make. You may exercise your gift for creativity to your hearts desire. At historical functions your freedom to be creative is limited to what is historically correct for the time period set and deviating from that is to show great disrespect for those folks who are in attendance and working very hard to be historicall= y correct. That is why we have discussions of what we think was how things were done. So that we may learn form one another and grow in our understa= nding of how it was truly done in a bygone era, not how we think they should have done it. One of the most onerous things to hear a "player" say with regard to this sport of historical reenacting is "Well they would have used it if they would have had it". Misses the whole point of doing this.

I hope we now have a better understanding of each other. I might apolo= gize for what undoubtedly sounds like a  lecture but you seemed to invite further explanation and as one of the first to try to help you answer you= r original questions, I thought it my place. In the best spirit of friendsh= ip, I will remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:

        I woul= d like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther regarding
replica and other types of clothing.  The subject of any person=92= s clothing, I
believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about indiv= iduals
from past times or those in the present.  Clothing is a represen= tation of a
person=92s personal expression in a very direct way.  Therefore, I believe a
certain amount of respect is warranted.

        My approach to clothing des= ign and crafting is based on enjoyment, expanded
options, and freedom of choice.  There is no place in my work for setting
strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently discuss
different options concerning a particular garment as a means of makin= g my own
personal choices and helping other people to make theirs.  My interest in
replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and
design choices judged.

        If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have reached an
impasse because this is the way I work and live.  I will probabl= y really catch
it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am comin= g from.

Thank you,
Andrea Moore

  --------------5EFED747CC4850A755CFDB10-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . . Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:50:36 -0800 --------------B977276CC7E60D9DF0C9B48C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net id VAA10706 Dear Andrea, Am I one of those who gave you insult? My most sincere apologies. That, m= ost assuredly was not my intent. As has been pointed out to you though, you asked for a= dvise and others opinions. My efforts to be of assistance came from the assumption = that you might no be familiar with the fact of life that this is a history list and we p= repare for and attend reenactment functions where yours and our choice of clothing, pers= onal as that may be, is judged by our peers and there are things we may not wear or do= at these functions lest we not be welcome. That having been said, your personal choice for dress away from these ree= nactments of history is certainly yours to make. You may exercise your gift for creati= vity to your hearts desire. At historical functions your freedom to be creative is lim= ited to what is historically correct for the time period set and deviating from that is t= o show great disrespect for those folks who are in attendance and working very hard to= be historically correct. That is why we have discussions of what we think wa= s how things were done. So that we may learn form one another and grow in our understa= nding of how it was truly done in a bygone era, not how we think they should have done it= . One of the most onerous things to hear a "player" say with regard to this sport of h= istorical reenacting is "Well they would have used it if they would have had it". M= isses the whole point of doing this. I hope we now have a better understanding of each other. I might apologiz= e for what undoubtedly sounds like a lecture but you seemed to invite further expla= nation and as one of the first to try to help you answer your original questions, I tho= ught it my place. In the best spirit of friendship, I will remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Amoore2120@aol.com wrote: > I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any fart= her regarding > replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person=92s clo= thing, I > believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individ= uals > from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a representation = of a > person=92s personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore, I beli= eve a > certain amount of respect is warranted. > > --------------B977276CC7E60D9DF0C9B48C Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net id VAA10706 Dear Andrea,

Am I one of those who gave you insult? My most sincere apologies. That= , most assuredly was not my intent. As has been pointed out to you though, you asked for advise and others opinions. My efforts to be of assistance came from the assumption that you might no be familiar with the fact of life that this is a history list and we prepare for and attend reenactmen= t functions where yours and our choice of clothing, personal as that may be, is judged by our peers and there are things we may not wear= or do at these functions lest we not be welcome.

That having been said, your personal choice for dress away from these reenactments of history is certainly yours to make. You may exercise your gift for creativity to your hearts desire. At historical functions your freedom to be creative is limited to what is historically correct for the time period set and deviating from that is to show great disrespect for those folks who are in attendance and working very hard to be historicall= y correct. That is why we have discussions of what we think was how things were done. So that we may learn form one another and grow in our understa= nding of how it was truly done in a bygone era, not how we think they should have done it. One of the most onerous things to hear a "player" say with regard to this sport of historical reenacting is "Well they would have used it if they would have had it". Misses the whole point of doing this.

I hope we now have a better understanding of each other. I might apolo= gize for what undoubtedly sounds like a  lecture but you seemed to invite further explanation and as one of the first to try to help you answer you= r original questions, I thought it my place. In the best spirit of friendsh= ip, I will remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Amoore2120@aol.com wrote:

        I woul= d like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther regarding
replica and other types of clothing.  The subject of any person=92= s clothing, I
believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about indiv= iduals
from past times or those in the present.  Clothing is a represen= tation of a
person=92s personal expression in a very direct way.  Therefore, I believe a
certain amount of respect is warranted.

 

--------------B977276CC7E60D9DF0C9B48C-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: A few items . . . Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:56:08 -0800 I would like to add my vote of appreciation for Andrea's many thorough explanations of sewing and tailoring technique. These methods are useful to everyone learning to survive with whatever's available, and I believe that is a common thread in these discussions. Many persons on this list take pride in hewing to an old-fashioned sense of logic, factual integrity, and straightforward use of language. To such persons, "judging" is an everyday act of discriminating the bad and worthless from the good and valued. I'm afraid that "judging", "discrimination" and for that matter, logic, are rejected by many people today, including our educational establishment, because such distinctions might make somebody feel bad. It's perfectly clear to me that somebody like Andrea, who has taken the time to develop and send us clear, useful, and thoughtful instructions on a topic we all need, should have no fear of being "judged" and should look forward with pride to the thanks she should receive. Naturally, our personal taste in clothing is our own business; there are all kinds of events where appropriate clothing is expected, and we all have methods of finding our what those standards are, and whether we want to attend or not under the circumstances. So from me, three cheers, thanks, and be assured I have archived your directions for that day when I next tackle a garment project. Pat Quilter, AMM #1658 -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 2:59 PM I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther regarding replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person's clothing, I believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individuals from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a representation of a person's personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore, I believe a certain amount of respect is warranted. My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment, expanded options, and freedom of choice. There is no place in my work for setting strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently discuss different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my own personal choices and helping other people to make theirs. My interest in replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and design choices judged. If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have reached an impasse because this is the way I work and live. I will probably really catch it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming from. Thank you, Andrea Moore ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . . Date: 14 Dec 1998 19:56:46 -0800 Hardtack, HIP, HIP, HU-RRAY Repeted three times with sincere feeling by......... YMOS Capt. Lahti' RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote: > Dear Andrea, I hope that no one was 'judging your tastes, etc... I > believe what was said was only in keeping a historical perspective (which > is what the AMM is all about). When reading your blanket question, my > thought was - Pendelton blankets is what you want- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Eichman Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . . Date: 14 Dec 1998 20:47:03 -0800 New to list. Am interested in what a farmer might have worn in 1830. Could anyone recommend a book or perhaps web site that might help. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Eichman Subject: MtMan-List: Farmer. Date: 14 Dec 1998 20:47:40 -0800 New to list. Am interested in what a farmer might have worn in 1830. Could anyone recommend a book or perhaps web site that might help. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Farmer. Date: 14 Dec 1998 22:16:41 -0600 Drop by your local friendly Amish community and take a look around, other= than machine sewing (and a little more modern shoes) things ain't changed much. For an even better representation with explanation and exciting first person interpretation visit Connor Prairie 1836 Pioneer Settlement in Noblesville, IN. John... At 08:47 PM 12/14/98 -0800, you wrote: >New to list.=A0 Am interested in what a farmer might have worn in 1830.=20 >Could anyone recommend a book or perhaps web site that might help. >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Farmer. Date: 15 Dec 1998 01:17:02 EST David, You didn't mention what area of the country you are in, but if you are near IN, take Johns advice and visit the Conner Prairie Settlement; in MASS try Sturbridge Village; in the lower colonies try Williamsburg; in PA visit Bucks County or any Amish community, etc. If a taste of reality isn't available, your local library will have books in the clothing / costuming sections that will lead you in the right direction. YHS, Barney P. Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: MtMan-List: Re: capotes Date: 15 Dec 1998 03:24:42 -0600 > Do I here 3 Cheers for Andrea Boys???? >Hardtack Here's my 3!!!!!!!! And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to the most elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life. They were designed or cut along lines of early European or Colonial style clothing.Contrary to todays common belief, it was the French Voyageurs,rather than the American Indians,who popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for the comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their own decorations." Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including the white,multicolored striped ones) are about as authentic as one can get,they are well over 200 years old.Blankets came in a variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney Mills(another period correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has been producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and they are well worth the price!) ) the purchasers indicated that they wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors that best pleased the Indians of Virginia. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night! Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . . Date: 15 Dec 1998 01:23:20 -0800 three cheers from me too. iron tongue Pat Quilter wrote: > I would like to add my vote of appreciation for Andrea's many thorough > explanations of sewing and tailoring technique. These methods are useful to > everyone learning to survive with whatever's available, and I believe that > is a common thread in these discussions. > Many persons on this list take pride in hewing to an old-fashioned sense of > logic, factual integrity, and straightforward use of language. To such > persons, "judging" is an everyday act of discriminating the bad and > worthless from the good and valued. I'm afraid that "judging", > "discrimination" and for that matter, logic, are rejected by many people > today, including our educational establishment, because such distinctions > might make somebody feel bad. > It's perfectly clear to me that somebody like Andrea, who has taken the time > to develop and send us clear, useful, and thoughtful instructions on a topic > we all need, should have no fear of being "judged" and should look forward > with pride to the thanks she should receive. Naturally, our personal taste > in clothing is our own business; there are all kinds of events where > appropriate clothing is expected, and we all have methods of finding our > what those standards are, and whether we want to attend or not under the > circumstances. > So from me, three cheers, thanks, and be assured I have archived your > directions for that day when I next tackle a garment project. > Pat Quilter, AMM #1658 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Amoore2120@aol.com [mailto:Amoore2120@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, December 14, 1998 2:59 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: A few items . . . > > I would like to clarify a couple of items before we go any farther > regarding > replica and other types of clothing. The subject of any person's clothing, > I > believe, is a very personal matter whether we are talking about individuals > from past times or those in the present. Clothing is a representation of a > person's personal expression in a very direct way. Therefore, I believe a > certain amount of respect is warranted. > > My approach to clothing design and crafting is based on enjoyment, > expanded > options, and freedom of choice. There is no place in my work for setting > strict dress codes or establishing hard-and-fast rules. I frequently discuss > different options concerning a particular garment as a means of making my > own > personal choices and helping other people to make theirs. My interest in > replica clothing does not mean that I am willing to have my clothing and > design choices judged. > > If the above is offensive to anyone on the list then we may have > reached an > impasse because this is the way I work and live. I will probably really > catch > it for this, but I think you deserve to know exactly where I am coming from. > > Thank you, > Andrea Moore ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mill, Kirk" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Farmer. Date: 15 Dec 1998 09:05:17 -0500 > in PA visit > Bucks County or any Amish community, etc. [Mill, Kirk] in PA, you want to go to Lancaster Co. or some parts of Berks Co. Bucks Co. is close but no cigar. Kirk Mill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 15 Dec 1998 07:16:48 -0800 Matt Richards, Thanks for the clarification on the "mules ear"/"mullien" question. John Funk ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Thank you, please read Date: 15 Dec 1998 10:22:44 EST Dear MtMan Friends, Thank you for your letters. I read all of them carefully. I thank you for your integrity and honesty. I respect your efforts to keep history alive through your reenactments, meticulous research and careful attention to detail. I am a designer and an inventor. In my work, limitations, restrictions, and boundaries of any kind are unthinkable. It is obvious that we are not compatible mainly due to the fact that our orientation and goals differ widely. I am very sorry because I really love you people (not romantically, of course, but rather "heart to heart"). I have particularly enjoyed our discussions on the various innovative and interesting ways people used to do things--that was fun! . . . wishing you success. I will love all of you forever, Andrea Moore Amoore2120@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paul mueller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes Date: 15 Dec 1998 11:00:32 -0500 Jeff Powers wrote: > > > Do I here 3 Cheers for Andrea Boys???? > >Hardtack > Here's my 3!!!!!!!! > And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've > seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to the most > elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life. They were designed > or cut along lines of early European or Colonial style clothing.Contrary to > todays common belief, it was the French Voyageurs,rather than the American > Indians,who popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for the > comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their own > decorations." > Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including the white,multicolored striped > ones) are about as authentic as one can get,they are well over 200 years > old.Blankets came in a variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney > Mills(another period correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has > been producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and they > are well worth the price!) > ) the purchasers indicated that they > wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors that best pleased > the Indians of Virginia. > Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well > > Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night! > > Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive Jeff, Just a note Hudson Bay brought their blankets from other blanket makers Hudson bay ddid not make blankets durning the fur trade and still do not. Todays blanket comes from Walker inc. The multi striped blankets is around 1817 it was made only to fight the chiefs blankets sells of the solid with black stripe balankets were hit hard because of the chiefs blankets some the with multi stripe or duffle blanket was made. the firit loom in witney england was in the year 1055 1n 1669 is when Thomas Early the founder of the frim was apprenticed. In 1711 they recieved their seal from the queen, but their blankets were already an article of trade.As for capotes there are many lists of capotes on invoices coming from england. paul mueller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . . Date: 15 Dec 1998 12:04:20 EST give that girl a double round ---darlin it's tough being around some of these old salts and remember dont be thick skin this is a discussion group and most of the people here have a lot of time invested doing proper and extensive reasearch---one thing for sure if it is period correct or not someone will give you the facts and references---stay with us and if there is anything I can help you with feel free to drop me a note offline---myself as well as others on the list get a little testy at times so please bear with us and you got my support--- best to you and have a good holiday season--- cheer---cheer---cheer--cheer--cheer-- "HAWK" Michael pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gbosen@juno.com (Greg N Bosen Bosen) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 15 Dec 1998 12:39:19 EST hey tom, like was mentioned before it was mounted on the wagon, and counted the revolutions of the wheel. if you measure the wheel and multiply that by the number of revolutions you can get an accurate measurement. the wagons followed strict maps to find where the one before them planeted corn and grain and stashed food stuffs. they had a amazing system of communication and supported the ones behind them (days, seasons, or years). in respect to the inventor of the odometer his name is Orson Pratt. he was a briliant scientist and faithful Latter Day Saint (mormon) apostle. he was asked to devise a method to count the distance traveled. he started with a rag tied to the wheel and later built this device. all he had to do was recalibrate it in the morning and in the evening he would check and record the clicks. the Mormon History Museum in Salt Lake City has one mounted on a wagon, ready for use. i hope that clears some up one the rhyme and reason to the odometer. Greg Bosen ps my brother did a engenering project on this odometer he can fill in more details is wanted. On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:31:07 EST Tomactor@aol.com writes: >Hi, Allen > >The Mormons had an odometer. There is one of them in the Scottsbluff >NM. I >have picture somewhere. I'll dig it out for you. I have also heard >they >assigned one of the kids to count the revolutions of a wheel. The kids >probably invented the odometer. > >Tom Laidlaw > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . . Date: 15 Dec 1998 11:54:05 -0700 Please Buck, Cathy Smith is not that much of an expert on Plains Indians, (especially the men) Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thank you, please read Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:04:02 +0000 (GMT) We (or at least I) will miss you. ---Amoore2120@aol.com wrote: > > Dear MtMan Friends, > > Thank you for your letters. I read all of them carefully. I thank you for > your integrity and honesty. I respect your efforts to keep history alive > through your reenactments, meticulous research and careful attention to > detail. > > I am a designer and an inventor. In my work, limitations, restrictions, and > boundaries of any kind are unthinkable. It is obvious that we are not > compatible mainly due to the fact that our orientation and goals differ > widely. I am very sorry because I really love you people (not romantically, > of course, but rather "heart to heart"). I have particularly enjoyed our > discussions on the various innovative and interesting ways people used to do > things--that was fun! . . . wishing you success. > > I will love all of you forever, > Andrea Moore > Amoore2120@aol.com > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 15 Dec 1998 17:03:09 +0100 Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer. There are later l9th century photos of the army using the same device. I'm still interested in any historic info on milage estimating/measuring without such devices. Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever mentioned a wheel odometer. Any more thoughts/info out there? Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 15 Dec 1998 17:43:09 -0700 An obvious question would be: Did all the trappers who mentioned milage in their journals have carts or wagons with them (or cannons, anything with a wheel), or were some of them mounted only? Is there any type of reasonable celestial navigation that could have been employed? Are there any other ideas? Vic >Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer. >There are later l9th century photos of the army >using the same device. >I'm still interested in any historic info on >milage estimating/measuring without such devices. >Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the >HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their >mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever >mentioned a wheel odometer. >Any more thoughts/info out there? >Allen Chronister Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party "Aux aliments du pays!" Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: MtMan-List: Posting Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:54:57 -0500 I know what you are going through and probably even thinking. You don't hang around this stuff for over 45 years and not pick up on the things that go on. (I started realllllllll young) But you have great skills and these guys have learned from you. No one was putting you down. Historic re-enactment is exactly what it is. RE-ENACTMENT. You recreate that time period to the last detail. I do several time periods so that I can express myself and my creativity to the fullest. To be over creative looses the essence of the time you want to do, if that is what you want to do. Back then these people were not as free as we would tend to think they were. The morals, dress codes of white and Indian, materials you could get for the time, and restrictions of travel, weather, and surviving put a definite limitation on what you wear. MOST of today's rendezvous are a sight of what I call "Modern 1990's Buckskinner Fashion Wear". If it is made from fur, feathers, leather or beads....it is legal. They have very little to do with what was actually worn or materials used in the very early 1800's. These "gentleman" of the AMM are here to share and learn information from each other. We have all gotten into some good old drag out fights on this sight. But that is what makes it so good and educational. We learn. We change our ideas. We change other peoples ideas. And we step one step up to make a better impression. The perfect mountain died in the mid 1800s'. We are just trying to figure out how they did it, No one left a manual. Linda Holley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A few items . . . Date: 15 Dec 1998 18:13:15 -0700 Joe, The work that Cathy was doing for "Dances w/Wolves" and "Son of Morning Star" was with the women clothing, assc. and Jerry Fartherhold did most of the men's stuff. Their hands were tied to a point with budget and the want-a-bee's trying to impress the directors. She must know something from her writings and she has the job. Several of us helped Jerry at "Son of Morning Star", checking in clothing, etc. on a weekend in route to canoe the Upper Missouri, everyone was getting tired of how the directors didn't like this or that of clothing shown them, even though it was correct. Same old story with Hollywood, "the public won't know", seems to be the attitude. Buck -----Original Message----- >Please Buck, Cathy Smith is not that much of an expert on Plains Indians, >(especially the men) >Joe > >Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery >Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 >Write for custom tanning prices >We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and >hair on robes >Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets >check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Farmer. Date: 15 Dec 1998 18:25:43 -0700 There are many Amish, Quaker and other clans that still dress and do things the same way as it was done decades ago. The reason I say decades is (it has now become a good tourist event to do things the old way), as early as 1950 in Lancaster and York Counties, PA the Quakers and Amish were having the ovens vented up the wind mills, to blow the smell of fresh baked pies all over the country, boy did that bring in the tourists to the "plain & fancy" eating places. I was raised with these people and went to one of their one room school houses where my mother was a teacher. The kids are to learn basic math, reading and know how to do a "dog and pony show". Good business and they still can keep their style of living when not in the public's eye. Oh, I do have some Amish relations still in Lancaster and York, still wearing the balck hats and doing the "say not" or "thee and thoughs" when in the public's eye, when away the store its plain and simple living. Buck -----Original Message----- >David, You didn't mention what area of the country you are in, but if you are >near IN, take Johns advice and visit the Conner Prairie Settlement; in MASS >try Sturbridge Village; in the lower colonies try Williamsburg; in PA visit >Bucks County or any Amish community, etc. If a taste of reality isn't >available, your local library will have books in the clothing / costuming >sections that will lead you in the right direction. YHS, Barney P. Fife > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 15 Dec 1998 17:30:30 -0800 At the risk of introducing suppositions and opinions where research was requested -- I can recall numerous journal entries of mileage where it was clear there were no wheeled vehicles along, such as the Corps of Discovery (who did make an effort to take their position frequently) and accounts where the party was thrown onto foot. So we can take it as established that they made mileage estimates without some form of odometer. Here's the supposition -- I can only assume that just as we have a pretty good idea how many miles we cover in a day's driving, these people had a lifetime of experience with cross-country travel by horse and foot to use. I know, to my chagrin, that even setting aside the fact that I would be lucky to cover 1/3 the mileage in a day, as reported by numerous journals (15+ miles a day), the several times I have retraced my travels on a topo map, I found I only made good a small fraction of my assumed mileage. Of course I do get lost. Anyway, a lifetime of travel on the ground could be expected to refine one's estimates. Anyone with more objective knowledge, please chime in. Could someone have been charged with counting paces, much like the ancient Romans (1 mile comes from 1000 paces, "mille" being the latin for 1000, at about 5 feet each (left + right steps). Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 8:03 AM Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer. There are later l9th century photos of the army using the same device. I'm still interested in any historic info on milage estimating/measuring without such devices. Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever mentioned a wheel odometer. Any more thoughts/info out there? Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:55:48 -0600 Date: 15 Dec 1998 18:52:14 -0700 One source of Amish goods is Gohn Brothers in Middlebury, Indiana. I = don't have the zip or phone number at hand, but they are in the book. = They have a small catalog of ready made clothes and tons of dry goods, = including all manner of fasteners, etc, and old style fabrics (some are = more period than others). Some fabrics are available in extreme = widths...bed sheet width, for instance. They have hardware for making = suspenders. All kinds of stuff. They will take phone and mail orders = and will ship immediately. However, I don't think that they accept = credit cards....I dunno. Call them. I have a couple pair of = broadfall pants purchased ready made and She Who Must Be Obeyed made me = some drawers of canton flannel---that is lightweight canvas on one side = and cotton flannel on the other...plenty warm. Be aware that if you = order light colored garments they might be sewn with dark, contrasting = thread, resulting in sort of an 19th century leisure suit. Ask first. = Also, be sure you know what kind of buttons are included, if any. = They are aware of re-enactors and will try to accomodate our needs. = They will also make just about any size pants for a few dollars more. I = won't tell you how big my pants are, but if Christopher Colombus had = used them for a sail, he would have been here in 1491.=20 YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 15 Dec 1998 17:56:40 -0800 Vic, One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is shanks mare. If we consider all the references made to "so many sleeps" by the indians and remember that these people (Europeans) lived their lives walking or ridding then I don't find it hard to believe they knew their distances by simply living them. Consider that we have little trouble telling some one how many yards the elk was from us when we shot or even how many "klicks" out we calculated for the artillery shot. Many with contemporary military skills talk in "so many meters" with the ease that our forefathers talked of the distance they traveled. I think we are making this more mysterious than it really was. L&C made celestial observations regularly which would have given them an idea of how far they had traveled. I'm sure that they and many others would instinctively known how far they walked in a given amount of time or if they were mounted or even afloat. Simple matter of doing it all your life. When we travel today we speak of traveling maybe 300 to 600 miles depending on our stamina behind the wheel. They were used to traveling from 15 to maybe 25 miles a day (a guess) depending on mode of travel available. I bet if we did that every day of our lives we could tell with accuracy how far we had traveled on a given day and not necessarily have to resort to a odometer behind the cart. What say you. I remain..... YMOS Capt.. Lahti' #1719 Clerk of the "Wilson Price Hunt Party" NW Brigade Vic Barkin wrote: > An obvious question would be: Did all the trappers who mentioned milage in > their journals have carts or wagons with them (or cannons, anything with a > wheel), or were some of them mounted only? Is there any type of reasonable > celestial navigation that could have been employed? Are there any other > ideas? > > Vic > > >Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer. > >There are later l9th century photos of the army > >using the same device. > >I'm still interested in any historic info on > >milage estimating/measuring without such devices. > >Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the > >HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their > >mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever > >mentioned a wheel odometer. > >Any more thoughts/info out there? > >Allen Chronister > > Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin > > AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party > "Aux aliments du pays!" > > Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona > Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:55:48 -0600 Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:52:29 -0700 Gohn Bros. 105 South Main P.O.Box 111 Middlebury, IN 46540-0111 1-219-825-2400 Here's the address that Lanney was referring to on "Amish and Plain Clothing". Buck ___________________ -----Original Message----- One source of Amish goods is Gohn Brothers in Middlebury, Indiana. I don't have the zip or phone number at hand, but they are in the book. They have a small catalog of ready made clothes and tons of dry goods, including all manner of fasteners, etc, and old style fabrics (some are more period than others). Some fabrics are available in extreme widths...bed sheet width, for instance. They have hardware for making suspenders. All kinds of stuff. They will take phone and mail orders and will ship immediately. However, I don't think that they accept credit cards....I dunno. Call them. I have a couple pair of broadfall pants purchased ready made and She Who Must Be Obeyed made me some drawers of canton flannel---that is lightweight canvas on one side and cotton flannel on the other...plenty warm. Be aware that if you order light colored garments they might be sewn with dark, contrasting thread, resulting in sort of an 19th century leisure suit. Ask first. Also, be sure you know what kind of buttons are included, if any. They are aware of re-enactors and will try to accomodate our needs. They will also make just about any size pants for a few dollars more. I won't tell you how big my pants are, but if Christopher Colombus had used them for a sail, he would have been here in 1491. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes Date: 15 Dec 1998 19:58:26 -0700 Charles E. Hanson Jr. had several articles about the "capote' and "great coat" industry of England and its involvement in the early American and Canadian Fur Trade. I will try and look up some of this information that Paul has just shared with us. As I remember the cut of the manufactured coats were different than what was produced by the Native Americans or breeds from examples at the museum. Buck ____________________________ -----Original Message----- >Jeff Powers wrote: >> >> > Do I here 3 Cheers for Andrea Boys???? >> >Hardtack >> Here's my 3!!!!!!!! >> And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've >> seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to the most >> elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life. They were designed >> or cut along lines of early European or Colonial style clothing.Contrary to >> todays common belief, it was the French Voyageurs,rather than the American >> Indians,who popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for the >> comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their own >> decorations." >> Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including the white,multicolored striped >> ones) are about as authentic as one can get,they are well over 200 years >> old.Blankets came in a variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney >> Mills(another period correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has >> been producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and they >> are well worth the price!) >> ) the purchasers indicated that they >> wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors that best pleased >> the Indians of Virginia. >> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well >> >> Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night! >> >> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive > > Jeff, > Just a note Hudson Bay brought their blankets from other blanket makers > Hudson bay ddid not make blankets durning the fur trade and still do >not. Todays blanket comes from Walker inc. The multi striped blankets is >around 1817 it was made only to fight the chiefs blankets sells of the >solid with black stripe balankets were hit hard because of the chiefs >blankets some the with multi stripe or duffle blanket was made. the >firit loom in witney england was in the year 1055 1n 1669 is when Thomas >Early the founder of the frim was apprenticed. In 1711 they recieved >their seal from the queen, but their blankets were already an article of >trade.As for capotes there are many lists of capotes on invoices coming >from england. > > paul mueller > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: MtMan-List: Mileage Date: 15 Dec 1998 21:36:26 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE2872.F7C7C5C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ho, the list: AARGH! Allen Chronister has asked a question that I vowed I wouldn't even try = to answer--but here I go anyway. Warning: this is a lengthy discussion. As a historical geographer who has spent the last 30 years studying and = writing about Western exploration in the first half of hte nineteenth = century, I've driven myself nuts trying to figure out the answer to = Allen's question: "about how folks in the late 18th and early 19th = centuries estimated their daily travel distances." The best answer I've been able to come up with is "depends". Depends on = the traveler, the purpose of travel, the equipment, the environment, = etc. An example: William Clark was incredibly accurate in his measurement of = distance. From St. Louis to the mouth of the Columbia, his distance = measurement was about 4 miles off from the modern measurement given by = the US Geological Survey. How did he do it? With fairly sophisticated = instruments, careful attention to detail, and enlisted men to do the = grunt work of pacing. Clark was instructed to make maps of the entire = route and this meant doing a lot of field mapping. During much of the = course of the expedition, Clark used triangulation methods: with one = known leg of a triangle, he could figure the other distances using = surveying instruments and tables of trignometric functions (sine, = cosine, etc.). To get his known leg, Clark would (as nearly as I've been = able to determine) have one of the enlisted men actually pace off = distances along the banks of the Missouri. Evidence of this is that = Clark often gave his distances in both straight-line increments and in = "windings"--in other words, distance as the crow flies between two = points and distance if the crow is walking along the curving bank of the = river and counting his steps. Other military surveyors and mapmakers who = were contemporaries of Lewis and Clark conducted similar scientific = distance measurements--usually with a very high degree of accuracy. For = example, David Thompson's maps of the Northwest, made between 1797 and = 1810, were also remarkably accurate in terms of distance. Like Clark, he = used surveying instruments made available to him by his employers (the = North-west Company). O.K. So how did people like Osborne Russell, Wilson Price Hunt, Robert = Stuart, William Ashley, Jedediah Smith, Rufus Sage, Thomas Farnham--even = James Ohio Pattie for crying' out loud--come up with distance figures = that were, while not as accurate as Will Clark's, still remarkably = accurate--without having access to sophisticated surveying instruments = and techniques? As frustrating and intellectually unsatisfying as this = answer is, I think they guessed. But their guesses were "educated = guesses".=20 I don't have to tell anybody on this list that these guys lived close to = the natural world and survived by knowing things like how far it was to = a water hole, good grass, or a place to fort up. I think that long = familiarity with their environment, with their own travel paces and = those of their horses (remember that they probably walked about as often = as they rode, using their horses to pack gear) allowed them to judge = distances much more accurately that we can while driving a car at speeds = that may vary widely (from a dead stop to 70 mph or more). I suspect = they also had a very well developed sense of time and distance--again, = probably more precise than ours because their survival often depended on = it. I've known old guys (contemporaries of my grandfather) who hunted = and trapped in the northern Wyoming mountains in the late 19th and early = 20th centuries. These guys--more than a half century removed in time = from the fur trappers and early explorers--were still incredibly = accurate in their abilities to assess time and distance relationships. = When asked how far it was from one point to another and how long it = would take to get there, they could often reply with what (as a kid) I = viewed as nearly supernatural accuracy. No pedometers for these gents = but purely shank's mare. They knew their environment; they knew their = pace. From a scientific standpoint, the potential abilities of human distance = and time perception are remarkable. And when it comes right down to it, = estimating a distance of in miles between two mountain ridges and the = time it will take to get from one to the other isn't a great deal = different than making that snap estimate of how far away that buck is, = how fast he is running, what the wind speed and direction is, and how do = I hold on a point so that after I pull the trigger and my firearm = discharges, a certain part of his anatomy and the slug from my rifle are = going to arrive at the same point in space at the same time. Many of you = carry out that incredibly complicated process without having to think = about it. Estimating distances probably isn't any more difficult for the = human brain to achieve--as long as that brain has plenty of experience = in making such calculations. Keep your powder dry. John Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 jlallen@snet.net ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE2872.F7C7C5C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ho, the list:
 
AARGH!
 
Allen Chronister has asked a question that I vowed I = wouldn't=20 even try to answer--but here I go anyway. Warning: this is a lengthy=20 discussion.
 
As a historical geographer who has spent the last 30 = years=20 studying and writing about Western exploration in the first half of hte=20 nineteenth century, I've driven myself nuts trying to figure out the = answer to=20 Allen's question: "about how folks in the late 18th and early 19th=20 centuries estimated their daily travel distances."
 
The best answer I've been able to come up with is=20 "depends". Depends on the traveler, the purpose of travel, the = equipment, the environment, etc.
 
An example: William Clark was incredibly accurate in = his=20 measurement of distance. From St. Louis to the mouth of the Columbia, = his=20 distance measurement was about 4 miles off from the modern measurement = given by=20 the US Geological Survey. How did he do it? With fairly sophisticated=20 instruments, careful attention to detail, and enlisted men to do the = grunt work=20 of pacing. Clark was instructed to make maps of the entire route and = this meant=20 doing a lot of field mapping. During much of the course of the = expedition, Clark=20 used triangulation methods: with one known leg of a triangle, he could = figure=20 the other distances using surveying instruments and tables of = trignometric=20 functions (sine, cosine, etc.). To get his known leg, Clark would (as = nearly as=20 I've been able to determine) have one of the enlisted men actually pace = off=20 distances along the banks of the Missouri. Evidence of this is that = Clark often=20 gave his distances in both straight-line increments and in=20 "windings"--in other words, distance as the crow flies between = two=20 points and distance if the crow is walking along the curving bank of the = river=20 and counting his steps. Other military surveyors and mapmakers who were=20 contemporaries of Lewis and Clark conducted similar scientific distance=20 measurements--usually with a very high degree of accuracy. For example, = David=20 Thompson's maps of the Northwest, made between 1797 and 1810, were also=20 remarkably accurate in terms of distance. Like Clark, he used surveying=20 instruments made available to him by his employers (the North-west=20 Company).
 
O.K. So how did people like Osborne Russell, Wilson = Price=20 Hunt, Robert Stuart, William Ashley, Jedediah Smith, Rufus Sage, Thomas=20 Farnham--even James Ohio Pattie for crying' out loud--come up with = distance=20 figures that were, while not as accurate as Will Clark's, still = remarkably=20 accurate--without having access to sophisticated surveying instruments = and=20 techniques? As frustrating and intellectually unsatisfying as this = answer is, I=20 think they guessed. But their guesses were "educated guesses". =
 
I don't have to tell anybody on this list that these = guys=20 lived close to the natural world and survived by knowing things like how = far it=20 was to a water hole, good grass, or a place to fort up. I think that = long=20 familiarity with their environment, with their own travel paces and = those of=20 their horses (remember that they probably walked about as often as they = rode,=20 using their horses to pack gear) allowed them to judge distances much = more=20 accurately that we can while driving a car at speeds that may vary = widely (from=20 a dead stop to 70 mph or more). I suspect they also had a very well = developed=20 sense of time and distance--again, probably more precise than ours = because their=20 survival often depended on it. I've known old guys (contemporaries of my = grandfather) who hunted and trapped in the northern Wyoming mountains in = the=20 late 19th and early 20th centuries. These guys--more than a half century = removed=20 in time from the fur trappers and early explorers--were still incredibly = accurate in their abilities to assess time and distance relationships. = When=20 asked how far it was from one point to another and how long it would = take to get=20 there, they could often reply with what (as a kid) I viewed as nearly=20 supernatural accuracy. No pedometers for these gents but purely shank's = mare.=20 They knew their environment; they knew their pace.
 
From a scientific standpoint, the potential = abilities of human=20 distance and time perception are remarkable. And when it comes right = down to it,=20 estimating a distance of in miles between two mountain ridges and the = time it=20 will take to get from one to the other isn't a great deal different than = making=20 that snap estimate of how far away that buck is, how fast he is running, = what=20 the wind speed and direction is, and how do I hold on a point so that = after I=20 pull the trigger and my firearm discharges, a certain part of his = anatomy and=20 the slug from my rifle are going to arrive at the same point in space at = the=20 same time. Many of you carry out that incredibly complicated process = without=20 having to think about it. Estimating distances probably isn't any more = difficult=20 for the human brain to achieve--as long as that brain has plenty of = experience=20 in making such calculations.
 
Keep your powder dry.
 
John
 
Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT=20 06268
860/487-1346
jlallen@snet.net
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE2872.F7C7C5C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WhteWolf1@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:48:49 EST Hey, Now that we are on the topic of Tobacco, I Had acouple of Questions about the Period Pipe Smoking. What would the Mountian Men in the West use in their pipes?(Northern-Central Cali) Even though there wern't that many MM over there. Just trying to adjust more into my "Period wear". Moving from Indiana to Cali. Kinda made me adjust my Wear alittle bit. Thanks, J. Broughton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 15 Dec 1998 21:57:15 -0700 I'm not sure of anything documentable on what Mountain Men of California would use in their pipes......but common native pipe mixtures that are indigenous to the Sierras and the Coast Range include Bear Berry (aka kinnickkinnick or Uva Ursi) common at alpine elevations and supposedly best if harvested in the springtime, inner bark of Red Osier Dogwood (aka Red Willow) very common along creeks, supposedly best if dried and lightly roasted, Native Tobacco (Nicotiana something Exaltata) was cultivated by just about every Native Tribe in California----and was the only thing they cultivated (and is the best Tobacco I've ever smoked, wish I could get some seeds) except along the Colorado River, and Wild Mints of many varieties. Also worth trying is Sagebrush (Artemisia Tridentata) from the high deserts of eastern California, and Mugwort found along most creeks and rivers. I used to live in Northern California, so this is based on what is there, and what Native peoples used, Southern California is a different world altogether. Where exactly are you living? Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kevin Kierst Subject: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps Date: 13 Dec 1998 08:28:39 -0700 My name is Joe Kierst and have been attending rendezvous for the past 3 years.Last night my dad had the idea of a buckskinner summer camp where you could trap beaver,hunt,track,throw knives and tomahawks,make fires with flint and steel,cure hides,pack a mule,shoot blackpowder rifles and more.I would start this myself but Im only 12 and school takes up most of my time but Im very willing to help in any way I can. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...and mullein Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:03:36 -0700 Just a side note regarding Mullein. I'm not sure if authenticity of pipe mixture was important to the fellow asking about Mullein identification, but if it is I thought I'd point out that Mullein is not native to North America (though it is so widespread you'd think it was), and while it probably spread very quickly once it arrived, chances are extremely slim that it was anywhere near the Rockies prior to 1840. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 15 Dec 1998 22:24:20 -0800 Matt, Looking for some native tobacco? Try Native seed Search. I have gotten some different seeds form them and grown the weed here in SE WA. with mixed results. Your climate may be even better. If you are interested and don't have the cat. I will see if I can come up with an address. Let me know. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Matt Richards wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WhteWolf1@aol.com Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 16 Dec 1998 02:01:18 EST Thanks for the Info On Tobacco. Just a couple Quick Questions again. Capt. Lahti', could I grab that address from you? Mr. Richards, I am currentally Living in San Mateo County, about 20 Min.South of San Fran, Any info you could supply me would be much appreciated. What would the Mountian Men use to keep their Tobacco Moist enough to smoke? A special pouch? Or did they not bother to care about the moisture? And did they just pick the herb, dry it, cut it up into ribbons and smoke it? or did they add stuff? This is coming from a guy that just goes out and buys it, instead of homemade, although I am willing to try anything. Thank you again for all your help, J. Broughton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 00:17:08 -0700 A general question for the list: All of this talk about period clothing and materials stimulated by Andrea's post has reminded me of a question that I've been wanting to ask folks like yourselves for quite some time. My limited experience at rendezvous' has been that folks are much more concerned with cuts and styles than with materials....ie ... its just fine to wear chrome-tan leggings, but wear brain tan in anything besides the styles portrayed in the same three books on Mtn Man gear that everyone has read, and its inappropriate (this is a gross generalization but illustrates my point). My feeling on this is that what is most 'accurate' is to use period appropriate materials, and basically period appropriate styles, but that there is some room for personal adaptation.... ie .... I find it hard to believe that Mtn Men were slaves to fashion. It seems much more realistic that most had some basic concepts about clothing in common (based on what was commonly used in the period), but they adapted them to fit their own needs because they were practical people who knew how to do stuff, and had to adapt in order to survive. If a guy found it more practical to wear high top moccasins in the area he was working in because there were so damn many burs, he'd make some, even if that wasn't typical of that area.......and even if he'd never been exposed to high-tops, he'd have enough brain power to think that making his mocs higher would help keep grass seeds from working their way down into his feet and being very painful (this is just a quick example).......or perhaps the location of his buttons, or using a drawstring, or other simple yet practical variations. With brain tan continueing as our example, what little remnants of mountain man and Native garments I've seen in museums has always surprised me how much it didn't fit into the stereotypes I see so much recreation of. Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate to wear brain-tan that is based upon a highly stylized later period garment (like levi's), but to me this type of 're-enactment' seems more in keeping with the spirit of who these folks were and how they lived. I'd really enjoy hearing some opinions on this..... I'd also like to say that many of the comments I've recently seen on this list about period clothing, makes far more sense to me than anything I've previously come across. Is there a web site where I can learn more about the AMM? Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes Date: 15 Dec 1998 23:29:46 -0800 (PST) Matt Read your book, (or most of it anyway) and been meaning to ask you... what do you use to replace the woodash wash when tanning hair on, as in buffalo robes?... And... after fleshing and braining, how do you preserve the hair on buff robe without smoking it? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps Date: 16 Dec 1998 02:57:50 EST hey joe - sign me up!! great idea. sounds like a rendezvous. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 16 Dec 1998 02:47:48 -0600 Thanks Paul,more fodder for the history files.I'll have to save this for future reference. >> And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've >> seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to >>the most elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life. >>They were designed or cut along lines of early European or >>Colonial style clothing.Contrary to todays common belief, it was >>the French Voyageurs,rather than the American Indians,who >>popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for the >>comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their >>own decorations." Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including >>the white,multicolored striped ones) are about as authentic as >>one can get,they are well over 200 years old.Blankets came in a >>variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney Mills(another period >>correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has been >>producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and >>they are well worth the price!) ) the purchasers indicated that >>they wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors >>that best pleased the Indians of Virginia. >> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well >> Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night! >> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive >Jeff, >Just a note Hudson Bay brought their blankets from other blanket >makers Hudson bay ddid not make blankets durning the fur trade and >still do not. Todays blanket comes from Walker inc. The multi >striped blankets is around 1817 it was made only to fight the >chiefs blankets sells of the solid with black stripe balankets were >hit hard because of the chiefs blankets some the with multi stripe >or duffle blanket was made. the firit loom in witney england was in >the year 1055 1n 1669 is when Thomas Early the founder of the frim >was apprenticed. In 1711 they recieved their seal from the queen, >but their blankets were already an article of trade.As for capotes >there are many lists of capotes on invoices coming from england. >paul mueller Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes Date: 16 Dec 1998 02:02:04 -0700 Lee, I'm not really a Buffalo Hide tanner, though I am currently doing a couple of Buffalo robes....and I've done many brain tan furs. All current Buffalo Robe brain tanners that I know (Wes Housler, Larry Belitz, Jim Miller, Randy Breuwsma) smoke their hides as far as I know, though I'm not sure if this was done historically.... ......one quick note with the 'hide smoking' tradition is that many native tribes did not smoke their hides, and most only smoked hides destined to get wet & dry frequently....like moccasins and leggings.....the idea that unsmoked or white hides were purely ceremonial is simply a myth, at least for the vast majority of Plains and western tribes (we have little record of eastern tribes' tanning methods, though there are a couple). However, people of that era lived a very smokey lifestyle, and from my own experience, it takes very little to functionally smoke a hide so that bugs stay out of it, and it can get wet and still dry soft....and this is why I believe that so many tribes did so little smoking------the hides got smoked anyway! Just by hanging out in the lodges and around fires. For hair-on tanning I do not know of anything that has as equivalently wonderful of an effect as the wood-ash lye of improving brain penetration....that is in any way traditional....though this is one of my current quests. My upcoming experiments will be to try 'pre-smoking' (see the Dinsmore's article at www.braintan.com/articles/presmoke.html ), on furs and see if this helps improve brain penetration....initial experiments have shown that it does wonders to prevent the hair from falling out, which can be a problem if one brains and rebrains a fur many times. The current method that virtually everyone does for tanning furs is to apply brains and work the hide soft repeatedly until it is as soft as one wants...whether its Buffalo, Beaver, Skunk or what have you. No-one has found a short-cut as useful as the wood-ash soak that helps so much with making buckskin, and in my opinion there aren't any brain tanners who have really mastered hair-on tanning, though there are many who are pretty good at it.....the commercial furs come out softer. If you haven't already, check out the online fur tanning article at www.braintan.com/articles/miller1.html for a basic idea. For Buffalo robe tanning I recommend Wes Housler's video 'How To Brain Tan a Buffalo', ordering info is at www.braintan.com/tools/tools.html . Wes has tanned over 500 robes, so I listen..... For more Buffalo tanning info contact Wes Housler, Larry Belitz, or Jim Miller all of who's contact information is in the Resource Directory at www.braintan.com/resources/directory2.html . I am working on an entire Buffalo tanning section for braintan.com to be posted as soon as I get it all together. Wes recently sent me a picture of a brain tan buffalo hide tipi he made last spring. It is really inspiring! Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes Date: 16 Dec 1998 02:02:05 -0800 (PST) Appreciate the info Matt. I was concerned about the buffalo robes due to a friends experiance with bugs and unsmoked hides.... the bugs clipped all the hair off his unsmoked hide except for the belly hair, so he now has a buffalo hide with a "reverse Mohawk haircut". I'd hate to go through all that work and have that happen. I'm in the process of seeing how tolerant my wife is by working on some hides in the basement. Will check in on your website when time permits, look forward to your Buffalo section. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 06:52:12 EST I think that you have hit upon my sentiments exactly. The people of the 19th century certainly weren't as concerned about the fashion police as we in the 20th century ssem to be. I am a quillwork. I do both hitorically accurrate and creative pieces. I am guided by who commissions what and when they want to pay me. I have traced my family roots back to the 1600's and am pretty sure they operated in the same way. Red Hawk MIA3wolves@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 16 Dec 1998 07:28:52 -0700 I wholeheatedly agree Roger and Pat, You are correct in the assumtion that it should not be made into a mystery for the ages. Another observation is that if, as in the L&C expedition , the aim was scientific, then yes, celestial navigation was the rule. If however the goal was profit and not science for posterity, we can consider ourselves lucky that some actually cared enough to record even estimated milage. Would the fur compaies have invested in an odometer on their carts in the first place? So far the evidence says no. So are we really back to the answer to Allen's original question being that a lifetime of travelling known distances prior to the uncharted journeys recorded, gave the travellers the experience needed to give very educated and accurate estimations? Vic >Vic, > >One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is shanks mare. If we consider all the >references made to "so many sleeps" by the indians and remember that these >people (Europeans) lived their lives walking or ridding then I don't find it >hard to believe they knew their distances by simply living them. Consider that >we have little trouble telling some one how many yards the elk was from us >when we shot or even how many "klicks" out we calculated for the artillery >shot. Many with contemporary military skills talk in "so many meters" with the >ease that our forefathers talked of the distance they traveled. > >I think we are making this more mysterious than it really was. L&C made >celestial observations regularly which would have given them an idea of how >far they had traveled. I'm sure that they and many others would instinctively >known how far they walked in a given amount of time or if they were mounted or >even afloat. Simple matter of doing it all your life. When we travel today we >speak of traveling maybe 300 to 600 miles depending on our stamina behind the >wheel. They were used to traveling from 15 to maybe 25 miles a day (a guess) >depending on mode of travel available. I bet if we did that every day of our >lives we could tell with accuracy how far we had traveled on a given day and >not necessarily have to resort to a odometer behind the cart. What say you. I >remain..... > >YMOS >Capt.. Lahti' #1719 >Clerk of the "Wilson Price Hunt Party" >NW Brigade > >Vic Barkin wrote: > >> An obvious question would be: Did all the trappers who mentioned milage in >> their journals have carts or wagons with them (or cannons, anything with a >> wheel), or were some of them mounted only? Is there any type of reasonable >> celestial navigation that could have been employed? Are there any other >> ideas? >> >> Vic >> >> >Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer. >> >There are later l9th century photos of the army >> >using the same device. >> >I'm still interested in any historic info on >> >milage estimating/measuring without such devices. >> >Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the >> >HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their >> >mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever >> >mentioned a wheel odometer. >> >Any more thoughts/info out there? >> >Allen Chronister >> >> Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin >> >> AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party >> "Aux aliments du pays!" >> >> Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona >> Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party "Aux aliments du pays!" Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 16 Dec 1998 07:37:00 -0800 J. Broughton, When I used to smoke my pipe I had made a pouch from pillow ticking, soaked it in melted beeswax (for waterproofing). To keep it moist I kept a piece of apple, cacti, bread or whatever was at hand that would retain some degree of moisture. Then I promptly went and lost the whole shootin match in the Big Hole.....Some trekker in the far distant future will stumble across it and have himself a genuine fired clay pipe bowl circa 19th cent. John Funk ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 16 Dec 1998 09:13:57 +0100 John Allen Thank you for your insightful post on distance. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: MtMan-List: Jocab & Sam Date: 16 Dec 1998 11:45:24 -0500 Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day Hawken Shop? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam Date: 16 Dec 1998 11:48:21 -0500 Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day "Hawken Shop"? Your most humble and obedient servant, mdwatts@naxs.com HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com M. D. Watts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes Date: 16 Dec 1998 09:13:21 -0800 In The Book of Buckskinning IV, there is a really good extensive article titled "Blankets in Early America". It is written by Gary Mueller. Gail ============================================= >Charles E. Hanson Jr. had several articles about the "capote' and "great >coat" industry of England and its involvement in the early American and >Canadian Fur Trade. I will try and look up some of this information that >Paul has just shared with us. As I remember the cut of the manufactured >coats were different than what was produced by the Native Americans or >breeds from examples at the museum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mileage Date: 16 Dec 1998 09:28:44 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE28D6.79F40460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, et al. At a later date, it is interesting to read how many emigrants on the = Oregon, California, Morman Trails misjudged the distance to major = landmarks such as mountain tops or even Chimney Rock in Wyoming. Almost = all diaries record that it "looks so close" but ends up being miles = farther than estimated.=20 Gail =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE28D6.79F40460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John, et al.
    At a later date, = it is=20 interesting to read how many emigrants on the Oregon, California, Morman = Trails=20 misjudged the distance to major landmarks such as mountain tops or even = Chimney=20 Rock in Wyoming. Almost all diaries record that it "looks so = close"=20 but ends up being miles farther than estimated.
Gail
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE28D6.79F40460-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam Date: 16 Dec 1998 12:13:31 EST KINA INTERESTED IN FINDING THAT INFORMATION OUT MY SELF---SURE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A GOOD PHONE NUMBER THAT I COULD MAKE CONTACT WITH I HAVE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN MY RECORDS BUT DONT BELIEVE IT IS CORRECT: THE HAWKINS SHOP 4778 NORTH MONKEY HILL ROAD OAK HARBOR, WASHINGTON 98277 PHONE NUMBER :1-360-679-4657 I WOULD ALSO LIKE THE NAME OF THE OWNER SINCE IT CHANGED HANDS FROM ART RESSEL-----ANY INFO WOULD BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED. "HAWK" Michael pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:48:21 -0500 mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) writes: >Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day >"Hawken >Shop"? > >Your most humble and obedient servant, >mdwatts@naxs.com >HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com >M. D. Watts > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam Date: 16 Dec 1998 12:47:22 -0500 Hawk, I'm thinking it may have migrated to Montana or Wyoming the last couple years. Like yourself, I've been unable to keep up with it. ---------- > From: hawknest4@juno.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam > Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:13 PM > > KINA INTERESTED IN FINDING THAT INFORMATION OUT MY SELF---SURE WOULD LIKE > TO HAVE A GOOD PHONE NUMBER THAT I COULD MAKE CONTACT WITH I HAVE THE > FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN MY RECORDS BUT DONT BELIEVE IT IS CORRECT: > > THE HAWKINS SHOP > 4778 NORTH MONKEY HILL ROAD > OAK HARBOR, WASHINGTON 98277 > > PHONE NUMBER :1-360-679-4657 > > I WOULD ALSO LIKE THE NAME OF THE OWNER SINCE IT CHANGED HANDS FROM ART > RESSEL-----ANY INFO WOULD BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED. > > "HAWK" > Michael pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor Florida 34684 > E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com > > On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:48:21 -0500 mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) > writes: > >Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day > >"Hawken > >Shop"? > > > >Your most humble and obedient servant, > >mdwatts@naxs.com > >HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com > >M. D. Watts > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Ron at Lewis Fork Free Trappers Date: 16 Dec 1998 10:50:16 -0700 Ron from Lewis Fork Free Trappers, please contact me concerning the John Johnston articles I am trying to send to you, they keep coming back undeliverable. Longtrail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes Date: 16 Dec 1998 11:11:54 -0700 Lee, Yeah, smoking hides really deters the bugs. If you don't smoke furs or hair-on hides, you are really asking for it. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 16 Dec 1998 10:15:17 -0800 White Wolf, The address is "Native Seeds/Search" 526 N. 4th Ave., Tucson, Arizona 85705. Be sure to ask for a catalogue that will have native tobacco seeds offered in it. You will have close to a dozen different types to choose from. As to cultivation, it requires lots of sun and fertile soil. Pinch the flower heads off and when fully mature, pull the whole plant up and hang upside down in the garage or shed. Crush or cut the dried leaves and mix with what ever you care to add. Keep in a closed container or it will get very dry. To carry 'period' I would make a leather pouch as I think that is how it was done but I know that metal tobacco "canteens" were made and used to carry it in a more moist condition. You can of course make it moist by putting a slice of apple or even potato in the bag or whatever the container and the tobacco will draw moisture and become supple. Hope that helps a bit. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' WhteWolf1@aol.com wrote: > Thanks for the Info On Tobacco. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tommy Edge Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 16 Dec 1998 00:42:33 -0800 unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 10:54:23 -0800 Matt, Thanks for the opportunity to express MY OPINION on what I think is correct. Some will agree and some will argue but that is what we are here for. Matt Richards wrote: > My limited experience at rendezvous' has been that folks are much more > concerned with cuts and styles than with materials....ie ... its just fine > to wear chrome-tan leggings, but wear brain tan in anything besides the > styles portrayed in the same three books on Mtn Man gear that everyone has > read, and its inappropriate (this is a gross generalization but illustrates > my point). It is not just fine to wear chrome tan leggings. It is always just fine to wear brain tan. Chrome tan is an expedient because of the supposed difficulty in making brain tan or the expense. There were other leathers available to the era but not chrome tan. It usually dosen't look right either. I'm not sure what you asked in the next sentence but it is always correct to wear garments of the correct style for the period and they should be made of the same materials and be of the same cuts as was originally worn. But the Mt. Man did not always were leather. Cloth was much more popular and widly worn than popularly thought. > My feeling on this is that what is most 'accurate' is to use period > appropriate materials, and basically period appropriate styles, but that > there is some room for personal adaptation.... ie .... I find it hard to > believe that Mtn Men were slaves to fashion. I think the Mt. Man and Long Hunter were more blended together in reality. But that is another topic. I think they were more slaves to fashion than you suggest, in that they were slow to adapt new things and ideas, i. e. the reluctance to embrace the new cap lock technology. Many fashions of the 1700's were still being worn in the 1830's. There may be room for personal adaptation but not as much as many folks at the more open club shoots and National Rendezvous have done. > It seems much more realistic > that most had some basic concepts about clothing in common (based on what > was commonly used in the period), but they adapted them to fit their own > needs because they were practical people who knew how to do stuff, and had > to adapt in order to survive. If a guy found it more practical to wear high > top moccasins in the area he was working in because there were so damn many > burs, he'd make some, even if that wasn't typical of that area.......and > even if he'd never been exposed to high-tops, he'd have enough brain power > to think that making his mocs higher would help keep grass seeds from > working their way down into his feet and being very painful (this is just a > quick example).......or perhaps the location of his buttons, or using a > drawstring, or other simple yet practical variations. High top moccasin were worn. Though some will tell you different, most all styles of moccasins of the era and earlier were also worn. I have heard it said that the Mt. Man worn nothing but side seam high tops. That is simply not true. They wore center seam, pucker toes, hard soled two piece, along with boots and shoes of eastern manufacture. What they didn't wear were what you can buy from Cabellas and such places. As to burs and such, most contemporary paintings show the legging or pantaloon worn down over the moccasin so there is protection from burs and sand. I'm sure that there were pants style garments etc. with different types of closures and such but I believe they would have felt really out of place to have to wear a pair of breeches that were buttoned in a way different from what the norm was at the time. > With brain tan continueing as our example, what little remnants of mountain > man and Native garments I've seen in museums has always surprised me how > much it didn't fit into the stereotypes I see so much recreation of. > Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate to wear brain-tan that is based upon a > highly stylized later period garment (like levi's), but to me this type of > 're-enactment' seems more in keeping with the spirit of who these folks were > and how they lived. Might be in the spirit but not correct. The reason you see examples in museums that don't fit what you see at many rendezvous is because these garment were collected long after the era in question and are not always representative of what was actually worn. Many folks over the years have spent their hard earned money on leather garments made as we make garments today and it is hard to throw them away or even recut them. There are a lot of misconceptions about how they lived and part of the problem is the way they have been romanticized so much by us and the entertainment industry. Lest I dig myself into too big a hole, I will stop and wait for others thoughts on this. I hope this has been of help to you and remember that this is my heart felt belief but I may be shown the error of my ways by others. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 12:49:52 -0700 Is there a web site where I can learn more about the > AMM? > > Matt Richards > www.braintan.com Matt, Here's the link to AMM Lonewolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: MtMan-List: References to Traps Date: 16 Dec 1998 15:37:13 -0500 In the reader's opinion, what is the single best reference to traps used during the Fur Trade era? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 13:48:03 -0700 Capt. Lahti, Good to hear your thoughts. The items I've seen in museums that I was referring to, are not reproductions, but originals. One example is Kit Carson's original buckskin pants and jacket in Taos NM (in a gallery across the street from the Kit Carson Museum). It is stylistically very different from 'typical' Mtn Man stuff...... The Jacket had 'cut-outs' which means cuts are made in the solid buckskin to form a pattern. This isn't done on the edge, but within the main body of the buckskin. His were done in the area next to the buttons on one side and the button holes on the other. His buckskins were fairly dark golden smoked, and behind the cut-outs was white buckskin, that showed through quite dramatically. It was really cool, but unlike anything else I'd ever seen. I wish I had a picture I could post for you. Cut-outs were fairly common on Native American shirts from the Plains, but not with any kind of backing besides their own bare skin. To get a basic idea of what I mean by cut-outs, check out the collar area of Michelle's dress at www.braintan.com/buckskindesigns/dress.html . Its not meant to be period, but she incorporated this traditional motif. I'm also curious about the basis of your comment "the Mt. Man did not always where leather. Cloth was much more popular and widely worn than popularly thought" While it is clear that cloth was used and not uncommon; in any paintings, drawings or writings of this era in the Rocky Mtn. that I have seen, buckskin does predominate. Are you talking about in the settlements....or do some people believe cloth wasn't used at all? My last question for ya, is what other leathers do you know were used by Mtn Men of this era. I know bark tan was common for certain articles, and have seen clear references to alum tan....anything else? Really enjoying your knowledge, Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 16:46:51 -0500 Unfortunately I think you are wrong. Fashion at this time period said who you were in society. Status was everything to men and women. They may not have been as modest (thanks to the Victorians) as we are today...are we??? Thank God today we have the freedom to wear what we want. But they were the slaves to fashion. Now it did take some styles 100 or so years to change, but you took care of those clothes. Clothing is even mentioned as part of your wealth because it was so expensive to make or have. They didn't have walk-in-closets back then. Most everything you had in clothing could be put in a bag. Part of the estate wills , lists how many dresses, shirts, chemise, blouses, stays, waistcoats, etc. you may have owned. (Any cross dressers out there???) These were passed down and used by the next generation. There are several books written at the time period which go into how your clothing looked on them and how many times worn. What the item was worn for and how to change that one little scarf to make it change for the occasion. The morals, mental attitudes toward sex, women and men are very different today than then. It did affect what they wore, when and how. Must go....have to throw that "T-shirt" on for the formal dinner I am going to. Now, do I wear the one with the Santa or the one with the blinking lights. And did I mention pants. Linda Holley MIA3WOLVES@aol.com wrote: > I think that you have hit upon my sentiments exactly. The people of the 19th > century > certainly weren't as concerned about the fashion police as we in the 20th > century ssem to be. I am a quillwork. I do both hitorically accurrate and > creative pieces. I am guided by who commissions what and when they want to > pay me. I have traced my family roots back to the 1600's and am pretty sure > they operated in the same way. > > Red Hawk > > MIA3wolves@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke??? Date: 16 Dec 1998 17:14:47 -0500 From Linda Holley...a few quick remarks...... > From Matt Richards: > ......one quick note with the 'hide smoking' tradition is that many native > tribes did not smoke their hides, and most only smoked hides destined to get > wet & dry frequently....like moccasins and leggings.....the idea that > unsmoked or white hides were purely ceremonial is simply a myth, at leastfor > the vast majority of Plains and western tribe I would agree with you an some parts of this. But the many leggings I have held in my hot little hands were not smoked or after all these years had lost the smoke color. Hard to tell unless you pulled apart areas of an article to look inside or at a seam to see the old smoke. After they are cleaned and restored for the museum display you have to look hard. But a lot of the leggings never got wet. Unfortunately, we really, on the most part, only see in the museums the good stuff. Who kept the work a day things? I have seen very few of these. Just the very decorated. Someone who could comment on this is Allen Chronister or Bill and Kathy Brewer, or Cathy Smith or Joe. > > However, people > of that era lived a very smokey lifestyle, and from my own experience, it > takes very little to functionally smoke a hide so that bugs stay out of it, Has that life style been in a tipi???? I try not to smoke mine up. And as for hanging my leathers around the old lining of the tipi, not so. They are kept in their parflech containers where the fine Western powder dirt can not get into it and turn them gray looking. Mt. St. Helen dust killed the lovely white color of my parfleches to a dirty gray and one white dress was murder to clean. That stuff got into everything. Wouldn't the same thing have happened back then???? Out West dirt is hard to get out of smoked or unsmoked hides. That is why Native had ways of cleaning the hide. And not by washing too much. Pumice stone is great for getting out some rubbed in dirt or white clay balls that you rub into the leather. That just mostly hides the dirt. There is a lot of smoke when cooking out side, but not in your best beaded dress or shirt. Natives had their work clothes and their dress clothes. And you keep your tipi neat inside. Nothing like having guest drop by and a dress falls on their head or the fringe from a shirt keeps getting in the way of your mouth. > > and it can get wet and still dry soft....and this is why I believe that so > many tribes did so little smoking------the hides got smoked anyway! Just by > hanging out in the lodges and around fires. > > Matt Richards > www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas W. Roberts" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 16 Dec 1998 17:21:49 -0800 Matt & company: (Somewhat) along the subject of braintan, I have acquired a sizeable piece of elk hide. It's over 2 ft wide and over 6 ft long, very dark (almost black), very soft, suede-like fuzzy on one side and leather-like smooth on the other. How would I go about figuring out how it was tanned? Assume that the source of the hide does not know any more than I do. Since I've never seen a black elk, I believe it is safe to presume that the hide has been dyed. Does that fact alone render this material unsuitable for pre-1840 re-enactment? How can I become confident that if I use this material, I won't get tossed out of camp? Tom Matt Richards wrote: > Here are some answers to Andrea's questions on braintan.... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 16 Dec 1998 15:30:36 -0700 Tom, Just my thoughts... 1) Since you have suede/grain surfaces, I would think it was commercially tanned. 2) Black color definitely means dyed, skins are naturally whitish. 3) Cut the outer edge of the leather, look at the edge. The dye doesn't usually penetrate all the way through. If you see a grayish-green layer in between the black layers, this is the distinctive color of chrome tan. 4) IMHO, dyed leather (not smoked) just looks out of place, no matter what color it is. The dyes used just don't come close, even the so-called Smoke color leather. 5) Unsuitable, I won't judge. I wouldn't make clothing out of it (it sounds too small anyway), maybe there's some way to make some useful, unobtrusive accoutrement out of it. If all else fails, make something not intended to be a part of your primitive attire. A good chunk of elk leather is ALWAYS useful to have. Hope this helps some, Hyar's Luck, Red Coyote > ---------- > From: Thomas W. Roberts > Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 18:21 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 > > Matt & company: > > (Somewhat) along the subject of braintan, I have acquired a sizeable piece > of > elk hide. It's over 2 ft wide and over 6 ft long, very dark (almost > black), > very soft, suede-like fuzzy on one side and leather-like smooth on the > other. > How would I go about figuring out how it was tanned? Assume that the > source of > the hide does not know any more than I do. Since I've never seen a black > elk, I > believe it is safe to presume that the hide has been dyed. Does that fact > alone > render this material unsuitable for pre-1840 re-enactment? How can I > become > confident that if I use this material, I won't get tossed out of camp? > > Tom > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke??? Date: 16 Dec 1998 17:29:40 EST Linda wrote: > Has that life style been in a tipi???? I try not to smoke mine up. And as > for hanging my leathers around the old lining of the tipi, not so. Early tipis were made from hides. While I can't remember the reference, it was quoted that after one year as a tipi covering, the now-smoked hides were turned into robes, clothing, mocs and other accessories; and the process started over again with fresh hides every year. This would seem logical and would kill two birds with one hide. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 16 Dec 1998 17:33:07 EST In a message dated 98-12-16 17:15:47 EST, you write: > Since I've never seen a black elk, I > believe it is safe to presume that the hide has been dyed. Does that fact > alone render this material unsuitable for pre-1840 re-enactment? Hides that are bark tanned with sumac added to the brew come out almost black, a deep, buckeye chesnut brown. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net Subject: MtMan-List: French/Indian Date: 04 Oct 1998 00:35:38 -0500 Greetings to the list, I know the Mt. Man era doesn't cover the French/Indian war, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a (preferably local -Dallas, TX) historical group that did? ...& just how forgivable is someone showing up to Rendezvous in the wrong era costume? I've been to maybe 3 'vous & no one said anything to me, but I've posted a few questions about the Scottish in that time period & folks were adamant about the French/Indian not being part of Mt. Man era. ...Just Curious. Thanx TURTLE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: misc. topics Date: 16 Dec 1998 16:49:39 +0100 Every time I tell myself I don't need to spout off something comes along, such as Linda Holley's suggestion that I jump in. So, this is 2 cents worth on a couple of recent items: 1. There were many, many commercial tanneries in the US in the erly 19th century. Enough that most any community of any size had one relatively close by. Most of the tanning was for heavy leather, but a significant part went into garment leather which in turn was mostly used for breeches and gloves. I believe that as the breeches went out of fashion in the first quarter of the 19th century, leather pantaloons were manufactured on the same basis. As far as I know most of this tanning was bark tanning. There is an obscure Smithsonian publication called something like the history of tanning in America that has a lot of info in it. It is very difficult to know whether a pair of "leather" or "deer skin" or "hide" (all terms being used) pantaloons bought at the AFC retail store in St Louis were made of native-prepared ("Braintain") hide or commercially-tanned hide. (Same goes for leather "hunting shirts" from same time and place) I believe it could have been either. Its too bad that someone does not turn out bark tan garment leather today (or do they?) 2. Yes, indeed, the "mountain man" of the 1820-30 period had and used lots of fabric clothing. While it was leather that they tended to mentionin their diary descriptions of their colorful friends and that AJ Miller painted and drew, it was cloth that they bought when they had the chance. Cloth shirts, vests, pantaloons and coats were very common in the field in the West. Please see the piece that Clay Landry and I did in BOB VII for more info. 3. I believe that Plains Indian people used smoked hides much more than "common knowledge" would lead you to believe for all kinds of applications, not just everyday clothes. There are numerous references to old lodge covers being recycled into clothing and other uses. Gilbert Wilson's ethnographical material on the Hidatsa is a good source that comes to mind. Much of the old bead and quillwork was done on soft, very dark brown buffalo hide that almost certainly came from old lodges. 35 years ago Norm Feder and Milford Chandler tried to coin the term "old tipi top" for this material, but it never really caught on. In addition, very close inspection of finer, special-occasion19the century items (such as pipebags and heavily beaded moccasins) shows that they were not-uncommonly made from smoked hide. After 150 years or so the smell and usually most of the color is gone, and all that would vary depending on how heavily it was smoked to begin with. A friend of mine who gets to handle a lot of original 19th century Plains material has gotten me clued into the fact that smoked hide was the original basis for much of the finer items that many of us have always just assumed was made with white hide because it was "dress" or "ceremonial" stuff. See what I mean, don't know when to stop. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 18:38:54 EST Yes, you are right when speaking about the white well to do but not everyone was wealthy nor necessarily caucasians. Some of us seems to have been on reservations and in lumber camps. Red Hawk MIA3wolves@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 16:15:57 -0800 Matt, Thanks for the compliment on my OPINIONS. Matt Richards wrote: > Capt. Lahti, > > Good to hear your thoughts. The items I've seen in museums that I was > referring to, are not reproductions, but originals. One example is Kit > Carson's original buckskin pants and jacket in Taos NM (in a gallery across > the street from the Kit Carson Museum). It is stylistically very different > from 'typical' Mtn Man stuff...... What year was this jacket collected from? If it was from mid to late in the 1800's then it may not be representative of what Kit and others wore in the field. If you mean different from what many wear today that is not surprising. If you mean different from what the historical record (such as it is ) shows, see first two lines above. > The Jacket had 'cut-outs' which means > cuts are made in the solid buckskin to form a pattern. This isn't done on > the edge, but within the main body of the buckskin. His were done in the > area next to the buttons on one side and the button holes on the other. His > buckskins were fairly dark golden smoked, and behind the cut-outs was white > buckskin, that showed through quite dramatically. It was really cool, but > unlike anything else I'd ever seen. I wish I had a picture I could post for > you. I think I have seen jackets like this in pictures or other museums but cool or not is it what was worn on the frontier in the early 1800's? I personally suspect not. > Cut-outs were fairly common on Native American shirts from the Plains, but > not with any kind of backing besides their own bare skin. To get a basic > idea of what I mean by cut-outs, check out the collar area of Michelle's > dress at www.braintan.com/buckskindesigns/dress.html . Its not meant to be > period, but she incorporated this traditional motif. Haven't gone to see the dress yet but I bet it is beautiful. The problem is that if you take such a garment that isn't period by your own observation to a rendezvous, others that don't know will think that this is what was worn and will copy the mistake. That is why we are where we are today on many things. > I'm also curious about the basis of your comment "the Mt. Man did not always > where > leather. Cloth was much more popular and widely worn than popularly thought" > While it is clear that cloth was used and not uncommon; in any paintings, > drawings or writings of this era in the Rocky Mtn. that I have seen, > buckskin does predominate. Are you talking about in the settlements....or do > some people believe cloth wasn't used at all? The accounts and ledgers of goods that went west with the traders are full of a large assortment of cloth yardage's and garments for sale to the trapper, engage', factor, and indian. It makes a much more romantic picture to dress you hero's in buckskin but does that jive with the reality of the historical record? The use of leather as a total covering was not as widely used as is thought. For leggings and foot coverings and when something of cloth wore out, yes. But I don't believe they all wore buckskin from head to toe but rather wore cloth when they could. I'm also pretty sure they didn't throw away their cloth clothing as they crossed the Wide Missouri. > My last question for ya, is what other leathers do you know were used by Mtn > Men of this era. I know bark tan was common for certain articles, and have > seen clear references to alum tan....anything else? Oil tan for one. There is a good article on period leather in one of the last volumes of "The Book of Buckskinning" series. The manufacture of leather by europeans on this continent goes way back and the "Mt. Man" didn't reject the goods of the east, but far from it hungered for many such things. Many pairs of manufactured shoes went west to the gatherings and surely not to sell or trade to the indians. They weren't made of brain tan either. Not an expert on any thing and surely not on types of leather. I do love brain tan and wear as much of it as I can stand. I assume you tan? Well hope this didn't come over as condescending or dismissive of your thoughts. That is not the intent. These are my considered opinions and I'm sure there are large holes in my understanding of the era. You too have an obvious interest in historically correct re-enacting and much knowledge too. Hope this has been of help. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke??? Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:28:25 -0500 You are right on the tipis for the covers. It seems many a moc. was made from the cover. But it did take time to smoke it up. Some lodges lasted a little longer. Thanks for reminding me of the usage of Smoky old tipi covers. Linda Holley ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > Linda wrote: > > Has that life style been in a tipi???? I try not to smoke mine up. And as > > for hanging my leathers around the old lining of the tipi, not so. > > Early tipis were made from hides. While I can't remember the reference, it > was quoted that after one year as a tipi covering, the now-smoked hides were > turned into robes, clothing, mocs and other accessories; and the process > started over again with fresh hides every year. This would seem logical and > would kill two birds with one hide. > > Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: misc. topics Date: 16 Dec 1998 16:26:56 -0800 Allen, You rascal. Here I spend most of my available brain power trying to say what you just said in my feeble way and you are setting there typing out what all wanted to hear said in the first place! At least we agree. And now I know which Allen Chronister you are. I know there are not two of you. Well I enjoyed your BOB VII article and wish such had been done decades ago. Thanks for the excellent clarification of this topic. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Allen Chronister wrote: > Every time I tell myself I don't need to spout off > something comes along, such as Linda Holley's > suggestion that I jump in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mileage Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:30:16 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE292A.82AE9F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gail, Yeah, ain't it so. One of the things that first got me interested in = distance perception was reading migrant journals and comparing distance = estimates with my "known" environment of the High Plains / Rocky = Mountain front region. A story: Part of my growing-up was in Laramie, = Wyoming: high basin country with a major mountain range to the west, = about 30 miles away. My grandpa used to tell of an Eastern tourist who = started out early one morning to walk from Laramie to the mountains. = About noon, a rancher west of town found the dude, stripped to his = skivvies and about to dive into an irrigation ditch in the rancher's hay = meadow. Since the ditch was only a couple of feet wide, the rancher = asked the greenhorn what in the world was he doing. The dude's reply: = "Well, I've been walking all morning to get to those mountains that are = so near I can practically reach out and touch them. I'm no closer to = them now than when I started six hours ago--and I'm not about to try to = jump over this ditch." Easterners and mid-Westerners often had (and have) trouble judging = Western distances. They were and are fooled by the clarity of the = atmosphere at higher elevations, an effect that often makes distant = objects appear closer to eyes accustomed to looking through "more air" = (the atmosphere is noticeably more dense at sea level than it is at a = mile above sea level). My guess is that the Oregon-bound Missouri farmer = in 1846 could estimate distances in his native Missouri just fine. But = put him in the High Plains of eastern Nebraska, in the clear air of 5000 = feet of elevation and a dry climate, and asking him to judge the = distance from, say, the Platte River to Chimney Rock would have yielded = pretty inaccurate results. The mountain men, on the other hand, = operating in their known environment of high altitudes, dry air, and = "large" landscapes, would have judged distances much more accurately. John Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 jlallen@snet.net ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gail Carbiener=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:28 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mileage John, et al. At a later date, it is interesting to read how many emigrants on = the Oregon, California, Morman Trails misjudged the distance to major = landmarks such as mountain tops or even Chimney Rock in Wyoming. Almost = all diaries record that it "looks so close" but ends up being miles = farther than estimated.=20 Gail = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE292A.82AE9F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gail,
 
Yeah, ain't it so. One of the things that first got = me=20 interested in distance perception was reading migrant journals and = comparing=20 distance estimates with my "known" environment of the High = Plains /=20 Rocky Mountain front region. A story: Part of my growing-up was in = Laramie,=20 Wyoming: high basin country with a major mountain range to the west, = about 30=20 miles away. My grandpa used to tell of an Eastern tourist who started = out early=20 one morning to walk from Laramie to the mountains. About noon, a rancher = west of=20 town found the dude, stripped to his skivvies and about to dive into an=20 irrigation ditch in the rancher's hay meadow. Since the ditch was only a = couple=20 of feet wide, the rancher asked the greenhorn what in the world was he = doing.=20 The dude's reply: "Well, I've been walking all morning to get to = those=20 mountains that are so near I can practically reach out and touch them. = I'm no=20 closer to them now than when I started six hours ago--and I'm not about = to try=20 to jump over this ditch."
 
Easterners and mid-Westerners often had (and have) = trouble=20 judging Western distances. They were and are fooled by the clarity of = the=20 atmosphere at higher elevations, an effect that often makes distant = objects=20 appear closer to eyes accustomed to looking through "more air" = (the=20 atmosphere is noticeably more dense at sea level than it is at a mile = above sea=20 level). My guess is that the Oregon-bound Missouri farmer in 1846 could = estimate=20 distances in his native Missouri just fine. But put him in the High = Plains of=20 eastern Nebraska, in the clear air of 5000 feet of elevation and a dry = climate,=20 and asking him to judge the distance from, say, the Platte River to = Chimney=20 Rock would have yielded pretty inaccurate results. The mountain men, on = the=20 other hand, operating in their known environment of high altitudes, dry = air, and=20 "large" landscapes, would have judged distances much more=20 accurately.
 
John
 
Dr. John L. Allen
21 Thomas Drive
Storrs, CT=20 06268
860/487-1346
jlallen@snet.net
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Gail Carbiener =
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mileage

John, et al.
    At a later = date, it is=20 interesting to read how many emigrants on the Oregon, California, = Morman=20 Trails misjudged the distance to major landmarks such as mountain tops = or even=20 Chimney Rock in Wyoming. Almost all diaries record that it "looks = so=20 close" but ends up being miles farther than estimated. =
Gail
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE292A.82AE9F80-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French/Indian Date: 16 Dec 1998 16:34:00 -0800 Turtle, Let them be adamant. The Scotts were very prominent in the fur trade as leaders, owners, workers and trappers. As to being welcome, there are many who have gone before you so don't feel like you are breaking new ground by coming to rendezvous dressed and outfitted more like someone from the F and I or longhunter era. My philosophy with the fellas I have influence with is: re-create whom ever you want in the pre 1840 time frame, just do it right! I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' MacRaith@mail.swbell.net wrote: > Greetings to the list, > > I know the Mt. Man era doesn't cover the French/Indian war, but I > was wondering ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:35:34 -0600 Why do I get the impression that I am being set up on this one? "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" by Carl P. Russell. I have the Seventh Printing, University of New Mexico Press that has 60+ pages on beaver traps and trapping. That is more than I would ever want to know about beaver traps. Iron Burner -----Original Message----- >In the reader's opinion, what is the single best reference to traps used >during the Fur Trade era? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:39:13 -0600 Indeed, the whims of fashion produced the livelihood of the mountain men. Iron Burner -----Original Message----- > Fashion at this time period said who you >were in society. Status was everything to men and women. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 19:31:17 -0700 I sort of agree and disagree with both of you. I don't think being in fashion was that big a deal to the mountain men. What I figure is this. When your pants wore out in the mountains you would luse them for a pattern to make buckskin pants. If your old ones were drop fronts(prevalent at that time) your new buckskins would be in fashion whether you intended for them to be or not. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Linda Holley wrote: >Unfortunately I think you are wrong. Fashion at this time period said who you >were in society. Status was everything to men and women. They may not have >been as modest (thanks to the Victorians) as we are today...are we??? Thank God >today we have the freedom to wear what we want. But they were the slaves to >fashion. Now it did take some styles 100 or so years to change, but you took >care of those clothes. Clothing is even mentioned as part of your wealth >because >it was so expensive to make or have. They didn't have walk-in-closets back >then. Most everything you had in clothing could be put in a bag. Part of the >estate wills , lists how many dresses, shirts, chemise, blouses, stays, >waistcoats, etc. you may have owned. (Any cross dressers out there???) These >were passed down and used by the next generation. There are several books >written at the time period which go into how your clothing looked on them >and how >many times worn. What the item was worn for and how to change that one little >scarf to make it change for the occasion. The morals, mental attitudes toward >sex, women and men are very different today than then. It did affect what they >wore, when and how. > Must go....have to throw that "T-shirt" on for the formal dinner I am going >to. Now, do I wear the one with the Santa or the one with the blinking >lights. And did I mention pants. > >Linda Holley > >MIA3WOLVES@aol.com wrote: > >> I think that you have hit upon my sentiments exactly. The people of the 19th >> century >> certainly weren't as concerned about the fashion police as we in the 20th >> century ssem to be. I am a quillwork. I do both hitorically accurrate and >> creative pieces. I am guided by who commissions what and when they want to >> pay me. I have traced my family roots back to the 1600's and am pretty sure >> they operated in the same way. >> >> Red Hawk >> >> MIA3wolves@aol.com > > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A891B013E; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:39:29 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 0zqOe7-0006gX-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:38:15 -0700 >Received: from [24.129.0.53] (helo=escambia.se.mediaone.net) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 0zqOe5-0006gS-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:38:13 -0700 >Received: from mediaone.net (surf4636.jacksonville.net [24.129.50.236]) > by escambia.se.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23529 > for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:38:10 -0500 (EST) >Message-ID: <36782A4A.D3441AA@mediaone.net> >Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:46:51 -0500 >From: Linda Holley >Organization: Holley Arts >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-DIAL (Win98; U) >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials >References: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 909625004 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: misc. topics Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:46:29 -0500 Thanks Allen, I knew you couldn't resist to fill in the giant gaps I left out. Your knowledge is greatly appreciated. I learn a lot from you. Linda Holley Allen Chronister wrote: > Every time I tell myself I don't need to spout off > something comes along, such as Linda Holley's > suggestion that I jump in. So, this is 2 cents > worth on a couple of recent items: > 1. There were many, many commercial tanneries in > the US in the erly 19th century. Enough that most > any community of any size had one relatively close > by. Most of the tanning was for heavy leather, > but a significant part went into garment leather > which in turn was mostly used for breeches and > gloves. I believe that as the breeches went out > of fashion in the first quarter of the 19th > century, leather pantaloons were manufactured on > the same basis. As far as I know most of this > tanning was bark tanning. There is an obscure > Smithsonian publication called something like the > history of tanning in America that has a lot of > info in it. > It is very difficult to know whether a pair of > "leather" or "deer skin" or "hide" (all terms > being used) pantaloons bought at the AFC retail > store in St Louis were made of native-prepared > ("Braintain") hide or commercially-tanned hide. > (Same goes for leather "hunting shirts" from same > time and place) I believe it could have been > either. > Its too bad that someone does not turn out bark > tan garment leather today (or do they?) > 2. Yes, indeed, the "mountain man" of the 1820-30 > period had and used lots of fabric clothing. > While it was leather that they tended to mentionin > their diary descriptions of their colorful friends > and that AJ Miller painted and drew, it was cloth > that they bought when they had the chance. Cloth > shirts, vests, pantaloons and coats were very > common in the field in the West. Please see the > piece that Clay Landry and I did in BOB VII for > more info. > 3. I believe that Plains Indian people used > smoked hides much more than "common knowledge" > would lead you to believe for all kinds of > applications, not just everyday clothes. There > are numerous references to old lodge covers being > recycled into clothing and other uses. Gilbert > Wilson's ethnographical material on the Hidatsa is > a good source that comes to mind. Much of the old > bead and quillwork was done on soft, very dark > brown buffalo hide that almost certainly came from > old lodges. 35 years ago Norm Feder and Milford > Chandler tried to coin the term "old tipi top" for > this material, but it never really caught on. > In addition, very close inspection of finer, > special-occasion19the century items (such as > pipebags and heavily beaded moccasins) shows that > they were not-uncommonly made from smoked hide. > After 150 years or so the smell and usually most > of the color is gone, and all that would vary > depending on how heavily it was smoked to begin > with. A friend of mine who gets to handle a lot > of original 19th century Plains material has > gotten me clued into the fact that smoked hide was > the original basis for much of the finer items > that many of us have always just assumed was made > with white hide because it was "dress" or > "ceremonial" stuff. > See what I mean, don't know when to stop. > Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:20:09 EST Broom straw is grown. I have seen craftsmen making brooms at Silver Dollar City in Branson, MO during their craft festivile during the entire month of Oct. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:59:07 -0500 My response was for the 1780 period to 1860. And it does cover most of the social classes. That includes the poor to the rich. The study of the Anglo Society as well as the immigrant, is very extensive for the time period. Manners, customs and morality was written about all the time. I own several original books of the time period which are very descriptive. These books were the magazines of the time. And there are re-prints of the News papers published in several of the larger cities. As for the Indian population, that is another research paper. But were we on the reservations out West before 1850? And I do not mean the Oklahoma trail of tears that Jackson pulled off. The plain Indian was still fairly free on the Great Plains. Also very curious as to the lumber camp statement???? Linda Holley MIA3WOLVES@aol.com wrote: > Yes, you are right when speaking about the white well to do but not everyone > was wealthy nor necessarily caucasians. Some of us seems to have been on > reservations and in lumber camps. > > Red Hawk > > MIA3wolves@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French/Indian Date: 16 Dec 1998 20:58:30 -0600 Not a problem in terms of finding folks interested in the F&I War in your area. We have full-fledged war games on occasion. Send me a mailing address and I will get you some literature on groups you may be interested in assocating with in Texas. Also, most rendezvous in our area now have a fair number of 1700's era reenactors, so you will not be out of place. Regards, Paul -----Original Message----- > Greetings to the list, > > I know the Mt. Man era doesn't cover the French/Indian war, but I >was wondering if anyone knew of a (preferably local -Dallas, TX) >historical group that did? ...& just how forgivable is someone showing >up to Rendezvous in the wrong era costume? I've been to maybe 3 'vous & >no one said anything to me, but I've posted a few questions about the >Scottish in that time period & folks were adamant about the >French/Indian not being part of Mt. Man era. ...Just Curious. Thanx > > >TURTLE > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas W. Roberts" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:15:56 -0800 RC, thanks for the reply. Well, a hunting pouch is what I had in mind - grain side out - patterned after one of the many fine examples in Madison Grant's book. My intention was to apply (as waterproofing) a fairly liberal amount of beeswax which would have a darkening effect anyways. Yes, your recommended test indicates the commercial tanning (grey interior), hopefully someone may chime in with some chronology of commercial tanning processes, as in was it historically done and if so, how early. If it's not right, I don't want to waste the effort using this stuff, no matter how nice it feels or what it cost. One lesson to be shared is that, regardless of event rules which require goods to be period appropriate, one must still verify. For example, at a recent event I purchased a pair of woolen gloves purported to have been hand knitted by some distant northern aunt. Only after arriving back home did I turn them inside-out to find a "Made in Tiawan - 15% acrylic" tag. My naive presumption of automatic honesty for rondezvous traders went out the window. Sorry I've let this message wander so far off course. Tom Sickler, Louis L wrote: > Tom, Just my thoughts... > > 1) Since you have suede/grain surfaces, I would think it was commercially > tanned. > > 2) Black color definitely means dyed, skins are naturally whitish. > > 3) Cut the outer edge of the leather, look at the edge. The dye doesn't > usually penetrate all the way through. If you see a grayish-green layer in > between the black layers, this is the distinctive color of chrome tan. > > 4) IMHO, dyed leather (not smoked) just looks out of place, no matter what > color it is. The dyes used just don't come close, even the so-called Smoke > color leather. > > 5) Unsuitable, I won't judge. I wouldn't make clothing out of it (it sounds > too small anyway), maybe there's some way to make some useful, unobtrusive > accoutrement out of it. If all else fails, make something not intended to be > a part of your primitive attire. A good chunk of elk leather is ALWAYS > useful to have. > > Hope this helps some, > > Hyar's Luck, > Red Coyote > > > ---------- > > From: Thomas W. Roberts > > Reply To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 18:21 > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 > > > > Matt & company: > > > > (Somewhat) along the subject of braintan, I have acquired a sizeable piece > > of > > elk hide. It's over 2 ft wide and over 6 ft long, very dark (almost > > black), > > very soft, suede-like fuzzy on one side and leather-like smooth on the > > other. > > How would I go about figuring out how it was tanned? Assume that the > > source of > > the hide does not know any more than I do. Since I've never seen a black > > elk, I > > believe it is safe to presume that the hide has been dyed. Does that fact > > alone > > render this material unsuitable for pre-1840 re-enactment? How can I > > become > > confident that if I use this material, I won't get tossed out of camp? > > > > Tom > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French/Indian Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:38:37 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BE293C.70808500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I live in the DFW metroplex and attend several rendezvous in this area. = The club in which I am secretary, Comanche Peak Muzzleloaders, has a = sizeable cadre of longhunters representing the F&I War period. You = would be most welcome at our meetings and at our two rendezvous....the = weekend of the second Sunday of October and of April. Meetings are at = noon on every other second Sunday of the year. We share a pot luck = lunch, followed by a brief meeting and, generally, a shoot. Bring = something to eat with and your smokepole and come visit us. Other clubs = in the area would also make you welcome. We tend to pay more attention = to your attitude and what is in your heart that to which era your outfit = represents. =20 Cordially Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net -----Original Message----- > Greetings to the list, > > I know the Mt. Man era doesn't cover the French/Indian war, but I >was wondering if anyone knew of a (preferably local -Dallas, TX) >historical group that did? ...& just how forgivable is someone showing >up to Rendezvous in the wrong era costume? I've been to maybe 3 'vous = & >no one said anything to me, but I've posted a few questions about the >Scottish in that time period & folks were adamant about the >French/Indian not being part of Mt. Man era. ...Just Curious. Thanx > > >TURTLE > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BE293C.70808500 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="98flyer.lth" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="98flyer.lth" 8A0DAAEAHgAAACAAACAAAAAGOThyZHZmbHllcgAAEAMCAAAAAAABBjk4cmR2Zmx5ZXIAAAYADQAA CAMKABEAAEAHpADg/4D9AAAAAAAQAQAWAAAAAAQACAAAAAAAABEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAEQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEQREZW5iaWdoAAARAADiA6AAwP8g/gAAAAAAEAEADQAA AAAEAAgAAAAAAAARAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABEE RGVuYmlnaAAAEQAAgAdgAOD/oP4AAAAAABABAEUAAAAABAAIAAAAAAAAEQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAARAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARBERlbmJpZ2gAABEAAMAGVADg/0D/AAAAAAAQ AQA7AAAAAAQACAAAAAAAABEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAEQREZW5iaWdoAAARAAAwA0ABAP4gAAAAAAAAEAEAOgAAAAAEAAgAAAAAAAARAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABEERGVuYmlnaAAAEQAAQwNkAIABwP8A AAAAABABABQAAAAABAAIAAAAAAAAEQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAARBERlbmJpZ2gAABEAAHgCoACAAUAAAAAAAAAQAQAoAAAAAAQACAAAAAAAABEAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEQREZW5iaWdoAAARAABAB+AA AADgBAAAAAAAEAEAhwAAAAAEAAgAAAAAAAARAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABEAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABEERGVuYmlnaAAAEgAAQAGgAGACIP4AAAAAABABAA0AAAAAAAAAAAABAgME BQYHCAkKCwwNDg8QEQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEQdFYXN0ZXIgTGlsaWVzAAASAABABMQCwAqA AgAAAAAAEAEAZAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoLDA0ODxARAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARCENh bXAgU2l0ZQABAzM2MQAAEgAACwGVAKAKQADcUQAAABABAA0AAAAAAAAAAAABAgMEBQYHCAkKCwwN Dg8QEQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEQdFYXN0ZXIgTGlsaWVzAAASAADgABABoAog/gAAAAAAEAEA DQAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoLDA0ODxARAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARB0Vhc3RlciBMaWxp ZXMAABIAABABowBA/SD+AAAAAAAQAQANAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBAUGBwgJCgsMDQ4PEBEAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAABEGU2VkZXIgUGxhdGUAMTk5OCBTcHJpbmcgUmVuZGV6dm91cwAAQXByaWwgMTAg LSAxMgBCb29zaHdheXMgTGFubmV5IFJhdGNsaWZmLCA4MTcgNTE3IDUwMDEsIGFuZCBTYW0gS2Vs bGVyLCA4MTcgNTU4IDc2NjUAQ2FtcCBGZWUgICQxMC4wMCAgICAgICAgICAgICBXYWxrLWluIENv bXBldGl0aW9uIEZlZSAgJDUuMDAATm8gVmVoaWNsZXMgaW4gQ2FtcCBGcm9tIDk6MDBhbSBTYXR1 cmRheSB1bnRpbCBOb29uIFN1bmRheQAAT25lIEhvdXIgVW5sb2FkIFRpbWUAAEJyaW5nIEZpcmV3 b29kICAgICAgICBXYXRlciBpcyBBdmFpbGFibGUAAEF0IEFsdmFyYWRvIHRha2UgSHd5IDY3IHdl c3QgZnJvbSBJLTM1VyB0b3dhcmQgQ2xlYnVybmUgMi4xIG1pbGVzLg1FeGl0IHNvdXRoIG9uIENS LTgxMCBhdCBhIENpdGdvIENvbnZlbmllbmNlIFN0b3JlLiAgTG9vayBmb3Igc2lnbnMuDQD///// /////w== ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BE293C.70808500-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Munroe Crutchley" Subject: MtMan-List: Period correct...stuff Date: 16 Dec 1998 20:14:09 -0800 I'm reasonably new to the list. I shoot a muzzleloader, and I like to research the fur trade era, but I'm just beginning to get interested in the reenactment scene. I've been reading the posts about period correct materials and styles, and I'm trying to sort it all out, so here's my $.02 worth: It seems to me that authentic materials are very important because some materials just didn't exist in times past and could never be period correct. However, when it come to styles, that's a grayer area. For example: If I had a piece of braintan elk and was going to make a hunting bag, I might search for examples of originals to copy, or I might just make the bag the size, style and shape that suited me best. I might use a closure device that I thought would work well (provided it was made of material available in the time period) even if nobody else's bag fastened closed like mine did. Isn't it reasonable to think that the mountain men of that era, free souls that they were, would have done exactly the same when they made their hunting bags...or anything else for that matter? I'm sure that certain styles of any item predominated, but with so many hand-made or improvised things, it seems mighty presumptuous to reject something just because we've never seen a picture or example of one just like it. Like I said, I'm just a rookie (hell, I'm not even a rookie yet!), so I would appreciate your comments. If I'm straying off course with this line of reasoning, point me back in the right direction. Munroe Crutchley Grants Pass, OR rocrutch@cdsnet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:56:46 EST In a message dated 12/15/98 11:58:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, kierst@newmex.com writes: << My name is Joe Kierst and have been attending rendezvous for the past 3 years.Last night my dad had the idea of a buckskinner summer camp where you could trap beaver,hunt,track,throw knives and tomahawks,make fires with flint and steel,cure hides,pack a mule,shoot blackpowder rifles and more.I would start this myself but Im only 12 and school takes up most of my time but Im very willing to help in any way I can. >> Hey Bub It's called the Eastern Rendezvous ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correct...stuff Date: 16 Dec 1998 20:36:55 -0800 Munroe, Good question! We can speculate and imagine and improvise, but when it's all said and done the only thing we know for sure are those things we have historical documentation for. If, and I repeat IF your goal is to be historically accurate you're pretty much stuck with that! There are several levels of interest represented here on this list but the predominant goal is for historical accuracy and understanding. Even with historical restraints there is still room for individuality and creativity, you just have to look a little harder to find the "primitive" way of doing it. It will be worth the effort! Medicine Bear Munroe Crutchley wrote: > I'm reasonably new to the list. I shoot a muzzleloader, and I like to > research the fur trade era, but I'm just beginning to get interested in the > reenactment scene. I've been reading the posts about period correct > materials and styles, and I'm trying to sort it all out, so here's my $.02 > worth: > > It seems to me that authentic materials are very important because some > materials just didn't exist in times past and could never be period > correct. However, when it come to styles, that's a grayer area. For > example: If I had a piece of braintan elk and was going to make a hunting > bag, I might search for examples of originals to copy, or I might just make > the bag the size, style and shape that suited me best. I might use a > closure device that I thought would work well (provided it was made of > material available in the time period) even if nobody else's bag fastened > closed like mine did. > > Isn't it reasonable to think that the mountain men of that era, free souls > that they were, would have done exactly the same when they made their > hunting bags...or anything else for that matter? I'm sure that certain > styles of any item predominated, but with so many hand-made or improvised > things, it seems mighty presumptuous to reject something just because we've > never seen a picture or example of one just like it. > > Like I said, I'm just a rookie (hell, I'm not even a rookie yet!), so I > would appreciate your comments. If I'm straying off course with this line > of reasoning, point me back in the right direction. > > Munroe Crutchley > Grants Pass, OR > rocrutch@cdsnet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 17:54:50 -0700 Linda, but you are talking about society people and farmers....there are many society people and farmers like that today. But then there are the people who need to make do with what they have and occasionally improvise. My suggestion is that the Mtn Men were more of this ilk, as there are folks of this ilk today. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments Date: 16 Dec 1998 17:51:09 -0700 Allen I appreciate your spoutin off! Makes for good conversation and learning. I disagree with you on a number of points....here goes. 1) You are right that there were 'commercial' tanneries throughout the colonies and states...and that they predominantly bark tanned. In the moderate amount of research I've done on this, I have found no evidence of any other type of tanning being done in a tannery of the day. Bark tan is not a material that has, or was, commonly used as a garment leather in any period of time. Bark tanned leather just doesn't lend itself well to garments (doesn't breath, is thicker and stiffer). Of course it's excellent for shoes (in town), bags, water bottles, belts and countless other uses. But garments ain't one of them (with the exception of armor in the middle ages). Do you have any evidence of it being used for shirts, jackets, breeches or the like during this era? Bark tanneries were in fact one of the very earliest forms of industrialization in the US, in the late 1700's. It lends itself to being industrialized because it requires an immense quantity of bark to be pounded, and that's the part of the process that was industrialized. Huge toothed wheels were pulled around in a circle by horses and mules to crush the bark. I have never heard of any other type of tannery in the early US, if anyone has, lets hear about it. 2.) Alan, you stated that "Most of the tanning was for heavy leather, but a significant part went into garment leather which in turn was mostly used for breeches and gloves. I believe that as the breeches went out of fashion in the first quarter of the 19th century, leather pantaloons were manufactured on the same basis." I am very curious to know of any primary sources for this information. My understanding from primary source research is that hundreds of thousands of hides were sent to England.....many of them already brain and smoke tanned by Natives (such as the Creeks). As the 1700's went on, an increasing amount of these exported deerskins were sent untanned. They were then tanned in Europe, using an oil tanning process, and many of these were then shipped back to the US for use in garments. Many more hides were tanned on people's homesteads and in their backyards for use as garment leathers (this is generally presumed to be brain tanning, though there isn't any specific evidence I know of.....the only other real option was alum tanning). I have never read of tanneries in the US making garment leathers in the 1700's or early 1800's, if you know of any sources for this information, I'd love to know about it for my own studies. 3) As far as hides being smoked or unsmoked on the plains. My previous statement was that smoking was not nearly as common of a practice amongst Native peoples as most people presume (the common line is that white hides were just for ceremonial use). You are right that there are many references of tipi tops being cut up into moccasins, and that you can certainly find pieces in museums that were smoked. You're also right that smoked buckskin washed a great deal starts to look like it may have never been smoked. My comments on smoking is not based on 'common knowlege' as you termed it, its based on studying ethnographies.....the earliest accounts of brain and smoke tanning that seem to exist. I have a bibliography of well over 100 accounts of Native tanning processes that I'm planning to put up on braintan.com tomorrow. Admittedly, very few are pre-1840, but unfortunately there are very few detailed accounts of Plains Indian tanning pre-1840 (exceptions being John D. Hunter's and George Catlin's). In all due respect, lets get down to the nitty gritty of what we really know, and what is supposition! Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 16 Dec 1998 18:13:12 -0700 Thomas, I agree with the previous comments on this piece of black leather....test it to see if its chrome tan. As far as black colored buckskins go, I can't say for sure that I have an account of its presence on the Plains or in the Rockies of that era, but black dyed brain-tan was common to Indians of many regions. The Iroquois are most famous for this, with their black dyed bags with quill work on them. The earliest accounts of brain tanned garments on this continent come from DeSotos expedition and there are some great quotes about the myriad of colors of buckskin that was worn by the Florida indians. The most common recipe for black dyes is to mix iron shavings with a tannin based dye (such as black walnut or oak). Indian black dyes were traditionally made this way except instead of iron shavings they used red ochres that have iron in them. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke??? Date: 16 Dec 1998 18:02:24 -0700 I hear ya about folks perhaps not hanging clothes in their lodges, but I'd still argue that the reason they could get a way with not smoking all their garments is because they were naturally exposed to smoke a lot. It doesn't take much smoke to do it. You don't have to see them turn any color at all to have the effects. Matt Richards www.braintan.com 2755 Sinclair Creek Rd Eureka MT 59917 406-889-5532 Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books and class schedules. -----Original Message----- >From Linda Holley...a few quick remarks...... > > >> From Matt Richards: >> ......one quick note with the 'hide smoking' tradition is that many native >> tribes did not smoke their hides, and most only smoked hides destined to get >> wet & dry frequently....like moccasins and leggings.....the idea that >> unsmoked or white hides were purely ceremonial is simply a myth, at leastfor >> the vast majority of Plains and western tribe > >I would agree with you an some parts of this. But the many leggings I have held >in my hot little hands were not smoked or after all these years had lost the >smoke color. Hard to tell unless you pulled apart areas of an article to look >inside or at a seam to see the old smoke. After they are cleaned and restored >for the museum display you have to look hard. But a lot of the leggings never >got wet. Unfortunately, we really, on the most part, only see in the museums >the good stuff. Who kept the work a day things? I have seen very few of >these. Just the very decorated. Someone who could comment on this is Allen >Chronister or Bill and Kathy Brewer, or Cathy Smith or Joe. > >> > >> However, people >> of that era lived a very smokey lifestyle, and from my own experience, it >> takes very little to functionally smoke a hide so that bugs stay out of it, > >Has that life style been in a tipi???? I try not to smoke mine up. And as for >hanging my leathers around the old lining of the tipi, not so. They are kept in >their parflech containers where the fine Western powder dirt can not get into >it and turn them gray looking. Mt. St. Helen dust killed the lovely white >color of my parfleches to a dirty gray and one white dress was murder to >clean. That stuff got into everything. Wouldn't the same thing have happened >back then???? >Out West dirt is hard to get out of smoked or unsmoked hides. That is why >Native had ways of cleaning the hide. And not by washing too much. Pumice >stone is great for getting out some rubbed in dirt or white clay balls that you >rub into the leather. That just mostly hides the dirt. There is a lot of smoke >when cooking out side, but not in your best beaded dress or shirt. Natives had >their work clothes and their dress clothes. And you keep your tipi neat >inside. Nothing like having guest drop by and a dress falls on their head or >the fringe from a shirt keeps getting in the way of your mouth. > >> >> and it can get wet and still dry soft....and this is why I believe that so >> many tribes did so little smoking------the hides got smoked anyway! Just by >> hanging out in the lodges and around fires. >> > >> Matt Richards >> www.braintan.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke??? Date: 16 Dec 1998 18:05:12 -0700 The thing of recycling tipis into clothing is something one runs across in old accounts, but it was not the only source of clothing leather. Accounts also state that they tanned fresh hides for clothing.... Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correct...stuff Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:13:39 -0800 Munroe, Munroe Crutchley wrote: > I'm reasonably new to the list. I shoot a muzzleloader, and I like to > research the fur trade era, but I'm just beginning to get interested in the > reenactment scene. > > It seems to me that authentic materials are very important because some > materials just didn't exist in times past and could never be period > correct. However, when it come to styles, that's a grayer area. For > example: If I had a piece of braintan elk and was going to make a hunting > bag, I might search for examples of originals to copy, or I might just make > the bag the size, style and shape that suited me best. I might use a > closure device that I thought would work well (provided it was made of > material available in the time period) even if nobody else's bag fastened > closed like mine did. You are operating with another almost 200 years of innovation to call on and though you could probably make your bag in a functional style with some historical safety, your innovative closure would likely date it to the 20th Century. So the bag wouldn't be historically correct. > Isn't it reasonable to think that the mountain men of that era, free souls > that they were, would have done exactly the same when they made their > hunting bags...or anything else for that matter? I'm sure that certain > styles of any item predominated, but with so many hand-made or improvised > things, it seems mighty presumptuous to reject something just because we've > never seen a picture or example of one just like it. They may have been "free spirits" but they still were limited to how things were usually done in their time. Not to how things might be done in another 50 or 100 or 200 years. Do you see what I am getting at? In living history recreation, the integrity of your recreating dictates that you reject what hasn't been documented. You are living in a much more innovative age too. Your inventiveness and Mine too, must be set aside if we are going to play the game the way it is supposed to be played. On the other hand there is nothing that says you have to be authentic but then you should not expect to fit into events where the other participants are concerned about the historical reliability of their kit and caboodle. (is that a word?) It is a word, my spell checker just corrected my original spelling as not being historically correct. > Like I said, I'm just a rookie (hell, I'm not even a rookie yet!), so I > would appreciate your comments. If I'm straying off course with this line > of reasoning, point me back in the right direction. Hey brother, we are all rookies or pilgrims in this thing. I hope I have gotten my point across in such a way that you now feel you are back on the right track. I remain.... YMOS Tom, aka. Capt. Lahti' > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:26:21 -0700 Capt. Lahti, I like what you had to say, and I have to agree that I don't really know what period in Kit Carson's life this jacket is from......and I'd love to find out. As far as wearing non-period garments to events such as Michelle's dress......I can't say we've never done it (I think she did wear it once at the Rocky Mtn Natls), but much of our buckskin clothing isn't intended for Rendezvous' as we wear it all of the time, so we mostly make what-ever pleases us.....and then have period garments particularly for re-enacting. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco in Cali. Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:25:46 EST By "Cali." do you mean California. If so, you' might be surprised by how many mountain men came to the Godlen State. Upwards of 24 brigades entered the state between 1826 and the early 1840's. Thus, your tobacco may not have to be adjusted too much as they were supplied primarily from rendezvous, Taos/Santa Fe or the HBC posts, primarily Fort Vancouver. If North Central California is your new state, contact me offline, we can't be too far apart. I'll provide you with a lsit of brigades to get you started in researching the mountian men of this region. If others on this list want to see the list of brigades, let me know and I'll post it here as well. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:19:33 EST The book mentioned earlier, "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men," by Carl Russell, (Alfred Knopf, NY, 1967) is good. Also, try "The Steel Trap in Norht America," by Richard Gerstell (Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA, 1985). While not focusing as exclusively on the fur trade era as Russel, Gerstell provides a very good overall history of traps. Unfortunately, it's out of print and may be harder to access. Also, the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron NB, has a marvelous collection of traps from the period. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530 283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson's Coat Date: 17 Dec 1998 00:24:37 EST Kit Carson lived until 1868. Before using the coat you describe as justification for conclusion regarding the mountain man era, be sure the coat is from the right time period of Carson's life. The museum could probably tell you the approximate date they have placed on the coat. This same caution applies to any artifact purporting to belong to a mountain man. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:25:39 +0000 Firearms, traps & tools of the Mountain Men, by Carl P. Russell ISBN 0-8263-0465-6 hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:00:05 -0800 It is available at Amazon with 24 hours shipping at $13.56 paperback issue. Gail ========================================= -----Original Message----- >Firearms, traps & tools of the Mountain Men, by Carl P. Russell ISBN >0-8263-0465-6 hardtack > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Munroe Crutchley" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correct...stuff Date: 16 Dec 1998 21:22:52 -0800 > Hey brother, we are all rookies or pilgrims in this thing. I hope I have gotten > my point across in such a way that you now feel you are back on the right > track. I remain.... Thanks Capt, Our 150 years of experience is something I hadn't thought about. I see what you are getting at that historical accuracy has to line up with the historical records we have to go by. I appreciate the guidance. Munroe Crutchley Grants Pass, OR rocrutch@cdsnet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:18:57 -0800 Matt, Thanks, Sounds like you are playing the game. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Matt Richards wrote: > Capt. Lahti, > > I like what you had to say, and I have to agree that I don't really know > what period in Kit Carson's life this jacket is from......and I'd love to > find out. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 16 Dec 1998 23:04:19 +0000 Dear Matt, I have an autographed copy of your book, deerskins into buckskins, I hope it's worth a fortune someday :). I am an amateur tanner. I've done several hides, and am finally getting to where I am satisfied with my results. Search for American Mountain Men, and you will find Dean Rudy's Web Site for the AMM. I've been rendezvousing since '82. I've wasted so much money on what I thought was "right", because I saw that 'cool dude' wearing it at Rdvs.. Since I've started my 'Pilgrim's Journey' I've learned a few things about clothing, and I've a lot more to learn. If you could attend an AMM event, or find AMM members at a 'Voo, you'd probably notice a substantial difference in clothing- compared to an average Rdvs.. You'd probably notice a wide variety of styles, also. Most of my compadres look like greasy, trail worn Mtn. Men. This is due to the fact that they spend most of their free time "on the Trail" , rather than lounging around a Porky Doo, I mean Rendezvous. (Just Kidding Guys, don't get your hackles up). For a lot of us the goal is to have all brain tanned clothing, unfortunately it's hard to make, and/or hard to pay for. As for me, I portray a Mtn. Man of limited means. Hence, I dress plainly with an eye for the Utilitarian. I believe this is a 'safe' persona. I keep my fixin's plain and simple. I don't 'shine' like a cock o' the walk, but I believe that I portray a more accurate, realistic Mtn. Man. Are you in Montana, where your book is published? If so, there is an AMM party there called The Upper Missouri Outfit (UMO). I'll bet they would be glad to share their thoughts and research with you concerning authenticity, etc.... I enjoy your postings, and look forward to further correspondence. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 17 Dec 1998 02:35:17 -0600 >for the occasion. The morals, mental attitudes toward sex, women >and men are very different today than then. It did affect what >they wore, when and how. Must go....have to throw that "T-shirt" on >for the formal dinner I am going to. Now, do I wear the one with >the Santa or the one with the blinking lights. And did I mention >pants. Linda Holley Linda,I would choose the one with the blinking lights!!!!! Seriously,In most of my research I've seen evidence of the slaves to fashion in the 18th and early (well most of)19th centuries. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fabrics 2 Date: 17 Dec 1998 02:35:22 -0600 BIG CUT... >4) IMHO, dyed leather (not smoked) just looks out of place, no >matter what color it is. The dyes used just don't come close, even >the so-called Smoke color leather. >5) Unsuitable, I won't judge. I wouldn't make clothing out of it >(it sounds too small anyway). BUT I have seen 18th century Huron centerseam moccasins that were dyed black with what I later learned was VERY concentrated black walnut juice(it started out when I tried it with about 5 gallons of walnut hull juiceboiled down to about 1 1/2 gallon). Now there are period correct native tanned and dyed moccasins that show that dyed leather was made by natives and used on occasion. I will not say that it was used all the time,but to arbitrarily claim that ANY leather that has been dyed is not period correct or usable in a rendevous or historical reenactment is the equivilant of saying that ALL MOUNTAIN MEN CARRIED ONLY .50 CALIBER HAWKINS. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps Date: 17 Dec 1998 07:54:34 -0500 No "set-up". I'm a sincere person wishing for advice. You were kind enough to lend yours. Thank you. Your most humble and obedient servant, mdwatts@naxs.com HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com M. D. Watts ---------- > From: Glenn Darilek > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps > Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:35 PM > > Why do I get the impression that I am being set up on this one? > > "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" by Carl > P. Russell. I have the Seventh Printing, University of > New Mexico Press that has 60+ pages on beaver traps and trapping. That is > more than I would ever want to know about beaver traps. > > Iron Burner > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marion D. Watts > To: MtMan-List > Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 2:33 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: References to Traps > > > >In the reader's opinion, what is the single best reference to traps used > >during the Fur Trade era? > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps Date: 17 Dec 1998 07:56:42 -0500 Thank you Jim. I'll see if I can Locate "The Steel Trap in North America". I believe I saw it offered last year in some trapper supply catalog. Your most humble and obedient servant, mdwatts@naxs.com HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com M. D. Watts ---------- > From: Casapy123@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps > Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:19 AM > > The book mentioned earlier, "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men," > by Carl Russell, (Alfred Knopf, NY, 1967) is good. Also, try "The Steel Trap > in Norht America," by Richard Gerstell (Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA, > 1985). While not focusing as exclusively on the fur trade era as Russel, > Gerstell provides a very good overall history of traps. Unfortunately, it's > out of print and may be harder to access. Also, the Museum of the Fur Trade > in Chadron NB, has a marvelous collection of traps from the period. > > Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 > P.O. Box 1228 > Quincy, CA 95971 > (530)283-4566 (H) > (530 283-3330 (W) > (530)283-5171 FAX > Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps Date: 17 Dec 1998 07:56:42 -0500 Thank you Jim. I'll see if I can Locate "The Steel Trap in North America". I believe I saw it offered last year in some trapper supply catalog. Your most humble and obedient servant, mdwatts@naxs.com HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com M. D. Watts ---------- > From: Casapy123@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps > Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:19 AM > > The book mentioned earlier, "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men," > by Carl Russell, (Alfred Knopf, NY, 1967) is good. Also, try "The Steel Trap > in Norht America," by Richard Gerstell (Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA, > 1985). While not focusing as exclusively on the fur trade era as Russel, > Gerstell provides a very good overall history of traps. Unfortunately, it's > out of print and may be harder to access. Also, the Museum of the Fur Trade > in Chadron NB, has a marvelous collection of traps from the period. > > Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 > P.O. Box 1228 > Quincy, CA 95971 > (530)283-4566 (H) > (530 283-3330 (W) > (530)283-5171 FAX > Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps Date: 17 Dec 1998 07:57:40 -0500 Thanks Gail & Hardtack Your most humble and obedient servant, mdwatts@naxs.com HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com M. D. Watts ---------- > From: Gail Carbiener > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps > Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 1:00 AM > > It is available at Amazon with 24 hours shipping at $13.56 paperback issue. > Gail > ========================================= > -----Original Message----- > From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 9:44 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps > > > >Firearms, traps & tools of the Mountain Men, by Carl P. Russell ISBN > >0-8263-0465-6 hardtack > > > >___________________________________________________________________ > >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps Date: 17 Dec 1998 08:47:00 EST The time for these "summer camps" would be during spring breaks, while the beaver fur is still prime, and the beaver in season. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 17 Dec 1998 08:42:18 EST In a message dated 98-12-15 20:33:19 EST, you write: << these people had a lifetime of experience with cross-country travel by horse and foot to use. >> Most of the early horse riding in this country was based on the european or English saddle. And as many "English" riders know that style was created for the cavalry which set strick standard. One of the standards I had DRILLED into my mind and my body was that in that style of riding the horse and rider go 4 miles per hour at the walk, 8 miles an hour at the trot and 12 miles an hour at the canter. The gallop was the one area for freedom. So many of the early travellers may well have estimated distance by the time in the saddle. Especially as unless you are trying to escape from something or trying to catch something the normal travelling pace is the walk when leading pack animals or doing sustained long distance riding. I know that there are variations for the size of horse and type of ground being covered but that would be one way to estimate distances. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage Date: 17 Dec 1998 08:42:18 EST In a message dated 98-12-15 20:33:19 EST, you write: << these people had a lifetime of experience with cross-country travel by horse and foot to use. >> Most of the early horse riding in this country was based on the european or English saddle. And as many "English" riders know that style was created for the cavalry which set strick standard. One of the standards I had DRILLED into my mind and my body was that in that style of riding the horse and rider go 4 miles per hour at the walk, 8 miles an hour at the trot and 12 miles an hour at the canter. The gallop was the one area for freedom. So many of the early travellers may well have estimated distance by the time in the saddle. Especially as unless you are trying to escape from something or trying to catch something the normal travelling pace is the walk when leading pack animals or doing sustained long distance riding. I know that there are variations for the size of horse and type of ground being covered but that would be one way to estimate distances. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:55:12 EST There is much knowledge to be found on this subject with trap collectors. You might start trying to locate them and the answer to other "Trap" questions by contacting the National Trappers Assn. at nta@nationaltrappers.com http://www.nationaltrappers.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:43:34 EST Fellow group members, May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back to some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all about. Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle is best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to their Wives and Daughters! For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy and respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally takes over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back then. As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take the time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making personal comments posted to the whole group. Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage, traps etc...that's what we're about. Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!! Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:03:33 -0500 I'm a member of the NTA and appreciate your advice. Your most humble and obedient servant, mdwatts@naxs.com HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com M. D. Watts ---------- > From: TrapRJoe@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps > Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:55 AM > > There is much knowledge to be found on this subject with trap collectors. You > might start trying to locate them and the answer to other "Trap" questions by > contacting the National Trappers Assn. at nta@nationaltrappers.com > http://www.nationaltrappers.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: HAPPY HOLIDAYS.... Date: 17 Dec 1998 11:34:42 -0500 Leaving on Monday for the COLD midwest... Omaha, Nebraska... to spend Christmas with my inlaws. Wanted to wish everyone out there a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS, and a wonderful and prosperous 1999. Also, to thank one and all for allowing all of us to be here and to share in the vast amount of information each of us can contribute. Ain't modern technology wonderful? A quick joke before I leave... *grin*... bear with me... A few years ago, three men were discussing what each thought the most wonderful advancement was in technology. One said... "Oh, by all means it is the telephone. I can talk to anyone, anywhere, anytime I chose." The scond said... "No, no... it's the televison. You can see what is happening at any time, anywhere in the world, as it is happening!" The third man chuckles and says... "You are both wrong... the most wonderful thing in modern technology is the Thermos bottle." Agast, the other two look at him and say..." The Thermos?? You have GOT to be kidding... All it does is keep hot things hot, and cold things cold..." The third man smiles back and says..." Yes!! But... HOW DO IT KNOW???" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:48:12 -0600 (CST) >> Good to hear your thoughts. The items I've seen in museums that I was >> referring to, are not reproductions, but originals. One example is Kit >> Carson's original buckskin pants and jacket in Taos NM (in a gallery across >> the street from the Kit Carson Museum). It is stylistically very different >> from 'typical' Mtn Man stuff...... That's because it is NOT typical mountain man stuff. Carson was as much a product of the Southwest fur trade as the Rocky Mtn rendezvous theater. His first western experience was in a Santa Fe trade caravan in 1826. His heart was always more oriented toward the Southwest. His style of clothing often reflected that. >What year was this jacket collected from? If it was from mid to late in the >1800's then it may not be representative of what Kit and others wore in the >field. It's closer to mid 1800s (Kit died in 1868) >> The Jacket had 'cut-outs' which means >> cuts are made in the solid buckskin to form a pattern. This isn't done on >> the edge, but within the main body of the buckskin. His were done in the >> area next to the buttons on one side and the button holes on the other. His >> buckskins were fairly dark golden smoked, and behind the cut-outs was white >> buckskin, that showed through quite dramatically. It was really cool, but >> unlike anything else I'd ever seen. I wish I had a picture I could post for >> you. > >I think I have seen jackets like this in pictures or other museums but cool or >not is it what was worn on the frontier in the early 1800's? I personally >suspect not. Indeed, it was. There were multiple "frontiers" back then, not just one. Cut-outs as illustrated in the Carson jacket were quite common in the American Southwestern frontier (technically called the "Spanish Borderlands"). Kit Carson's jacket, which, I believe dates from the 1840s-50s, is stylistically typical of the period (perhaps earlier) in the Southwest. The Spanish cultures had wonderful style and taste in personal adornment, much more outwardly visual than their conservative Anglo counterparts. The borderlands were not originally an Anglo frontier, but was a frontier nevertheless, and an integral part of the western story and transcends beyond the rendezvous era. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:10:16 EST I believe broom straw that you are speaking of is actually not straw but broom corn tops if i am not mistaken---the corn tops are harvisted just as the corn is--- have seen them make brooms there myself and they do a good job---a bit pricy when they sell them. they now buy commercial grown tops and not as it was when silver doller city first opened---they got their straw from "School of the ozarks" which is a school that allowd the students to work for their tuition and that was a way to produce income for the students. "HAWK" Michael pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:20:09 EST TrapRJoe@aol.com writes: >Broom straw is grown. I have seen craftsmen making brooms at Silver >Dollar >City in Branson, MO during their craft festivile during the entire >month of >Oct. > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:15:34 -0500 My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list. I'm a new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette. Your understanding is appreciated. Your most humble and obedient servant, mdwatts@naxs.com HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com M. D. Watts ---------- > From: TetonTod@aol.com > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks > Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:43 AM > > Fellow group members, > > May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back to > some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all about. > Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle is > best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to their > Wives and Daughters! > > For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy and > respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have > dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally takes > over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back > then. > > As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of > historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the > comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take the > time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making > personal comments posted to the whole group. > > Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage, traps > etc...that's what we're about. > > Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!! > > Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:14:37 -0600 At 05:51 PM 12/16/98 -0700, you wrote: .....the only other real option was alum tanning). > >Matt Richards > Except for oil tanning, egg tanning, urine tanning, buttermilk tanning, sour milk tanning, arsenic tanning and acid tanning. Birch bark as well as oak bark was used for differing leathers and extensive use of lime and saltpeter was called for in many old tanning receipts. There are specific receipts for differing hides including goat, sheep, and etc. Many techniques were recorded for specific types of leather such as Russian and Morocco. I also have found receipts for converting parchment into leather. Prior to 1840 there was a significant hide and tallow trade out of California. In 1838 an estimated 200,000 cow hides were shipped to Boston alone. The beef was considered a byproduct and much of it was burned as waste. Calf skins were commonly greased with equal quantities of cod-liver oil and tallow, called dubbing, after bark tanning. There are many old receipts for the coloring (dyeing) of leather including brown, blue, red, purple, green, yellow, and orange not to mention the ubiquitous black. I overheard a discussion years ago that declared brain tan was actually the "dressing" of skins and not a true tanning. I don't remember the particulars but, wonder if you've encountered this distinction in your research. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke??? Date: 17 Dec 1998 09:15:24 -0800 Reginald and Gladys Laubin have written extensive information in their book "THE INDIAN TIPI" regarding the fabrication of buffalo hide tipis as well as the use of the "old" leather once the tipi was recycled. As I recall, the female buff. was primarily used due to the hide being somewhat lighter in weight that the male hide. Mocs were made from the upper flap areas which had received the heavier smoking. John Funk ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:55:23 -0500 I'm not sure that this will be of help to anyone concerning brooms, but being from the deep south and growing up in a rather "plain living" life style, I was acquainted with several ladies that made their own brooms, as their mothers before them had. They were fashioned from sage grass. ---------- > From: hawknest4@juno.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions > Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:10 PM > > I believe broom straw that you are speaking of is actually not straw but > broom corn tops if i am not mistaken---the corn tops are harvisted just > as the corn is--- > > have seen them make brooms there myself and they do a good job---a bit > pricy when they sell them. they now buy commercial grown tops and not as > it was when silver doller city first opened---they got their straw from > "School of the ozarks" which is a school that allowd the students to > work for their tuition and that was a way to produce income for the > students. > > "HAWK" > Michael pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor Florida 34684 > E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com > > On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:20:09 EST TrapRJoe@aol.com writes: > >Broom straw is grown. I have seen craftsmen making brooms at Silver > >Dollar > >City in Branson, MO during their craft festivile during the entire > >month of > >Oct. > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:48:12 -0600 (CST) >> Good to hear your thoughts. The items I've seen in museums that I was >> referring to, are not reproductions, but originals. One example is Kit >> Carson's original buckskin pants and jacket in Taos NM (in a gallery across >> the street from the Kit Carson Museum). It is stylistically very different >> from 'typical' Mtn Man stuff...... That's because it is NOT typical mountain man stuff. Carson was as much a product of the Southwest fur trade as the Rocky Mtn rendezvous theater. His first western experience was in a Santa Fe trade caravan in 1826. His heart was always more oriented toward the Southwest. His style of clothing often reflected that. >What year was this jacket collected from? If it was from mid to late in the >1800's then it may not be representative of what Kit and others wore in the >field. It's closer to mid 1800s (Kit died in 1868) >> The Jacket had 'cut-outs' which means >> cuts are made in the solid buckskin to form a pattern. This isn't done on >> the edge, but within the main body of the buckskin. His were done in the >> area next to the buttons on one side and the button holes on the other. His >> buckskins were fairly dark golden smoked, and behind the cut-outs was white >> buckskin, that showed through quite dramatically. It was really cool, but >> unlike anything else I'd ever seen. I wish I had a picture I could post for >> you. > >I think I have seen jackets like this in pictures or other museums but cool or >not is it what was worn on the frontier in the early 1800's? I personally >suspect not. Indeed, it was. There were multiple "frontiers" back then, not just one. Cut-outs as illustrated in the Carson jacket were quite common in the American Southwestern frontier (technically called the "Spanish Borderlands"). Kit Carson's jacket, which, I believe dates from the 1840s-50s, is stylistically typical of the period (perhaps earlier) in the Southwest. The Spanish cultures had wonderful style and taste in personal adornment, much more outwardly visual than their conservative Anglo counterparts. The borderlands were not originally an Anglo frontier, but was a frontier nevertheless, and an integral part of the western story and transcends beyond the rendezvous era. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HAPPY HOLIDAYS.... Date: 17 Dec 1998 14:15:26 EST addison--- have a safe trip and may the christmas spirit follow you on your trip and may you have a prosperous and wonderful new year---hope to see you at the alifi---will only be coming to see friends and not to participate or be around the green frog skin groping groop. "HAWK" Michael pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:34:42 -0500 "Addison Miller" writes: >Leaving on Monday for the COLD midwest... Omaha, Nebraska... to spend >Christmas with my inlaws. > >Wanted to wish everyone out there a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS, and a >wonderful >and prosperous 1999. > >Also, to thank one and all for allowing all of us to be here and to >share in >the vast amount of information each of us can contribute. Ain't >modern >technology wonderful? > >A quick joke before I leave... *grin*... bear with me... > >A few years ago, three men were discussing what each thought the most >wonderful advancement was in technology. > >One said... "Oh, by all means it is the telephone. I can talk to >anyone, >anywhere, anytime I chose." > >The scond said... "No, no... it's the televison. You can see what is >happening at any time, anywhere in the world, as it is happening!" > >The third man chuckles and says... "You are both wrong... the most >wonderful >thing in modern technology is the Thermos bottle." > >Agast, the other two look at him and say..." The Thermos?? You have >GOT to >be kidding... All it does is keep hot things hot, and cold things >cold..." > >The third man smiles back and says..." Yes!! But... HOW DO IT KNOW???" > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:43:34 EST Fellow group members, May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back to some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all about. Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle is best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to their Wives and Daughters! For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy and respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally takes over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back then. As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take the time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making personal comments posted to the whole group. Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage, traps etc...that's what we're about. Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!! Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Katona" Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 17 Dec 1998 07:28:50 -0800 unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks Date: 17 Dec 1998 15:58:03 -0500 Etiquette??? what etiquette? I didn't know we had any. Thought this sight was guided by freedoms of speech, who had knowledge, big brass ones, choices to stick your foot in your mouth and who could run the fastest after throwing the first punch. Linda Holley "Marion D. Watts" wrote: > My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list. I'm a > new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette. Your understanding is > appreciated. > Your most humble and obedient servant, > mdwatts@naxs.com > HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com > M. D. Watts > > ---------- > > From: TetonTod@aol.com > > To: hist_text@xmission.com > > Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks > > Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:43 AM > > > > Fellow group members, > > > > May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back > to > > some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all > about. > > Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle > is > > best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to > their > > Wives and Daughters! > > > > For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy > and > > respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have > > dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally > takes > > over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back > > then. > > > > As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of > > historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the > > comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take > the > > time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making > > personal comments posted to the whole group. > > > > Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage, > traps > > etc...that's what we're about. > > > > Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!! > > > > Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net Subject: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing Date: 04 Oct 1998 01:48:07 -0500 Matt The cutouts, or"pinkings and piercings", was predominately a southwestern addition to clothing styles. Many examples of Mexican and Commanche leather goods have patterns cut through an outer cover with leather or cloth to back with. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks Date: 17 Dec 1998 16:24:14 -0500 So THAT'S why I haven't been tossed off the list yet.. Well I'll be didilly damned!! Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >Etiquette??? what etiquette? I didn't know we had any. Thought this sight was >guided by freedoms of speech, who had knowledge, big brass ones, choices to >stick your foot in your mouth and who could run the fastest after throwing the >first punch. > >Linda Holley > >"Marion D. Watts" wrote: > >> My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list. I'm a >> new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette. Your understanding is >> appreciated. >> Your most humble and obedient servant, >> mdwatts@naxs.com >> HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com >> M. D. Watts >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments Date: 17 Dec 1998 14:45:22 -0700 Johns reply to my comment of not knowing of any other period tanning methods besides bark, brain, oil and alum was: Except for oil tanning, egg tanning, urine tanning, buttermilk tanning, sour >milk tanning, arsenic tanning and acid tanning. > I guess a lot has to do with how we define our terms. The term 'brain tanning' did not exist to my knowledge before modern times. The accepted way (among the leather industry) of defining tanning terms is based on how the actual chemical change is affected on the leather. If something actually changes the collagen proteins of the skin, permanently, it is a 'tanning' agent. I am well aware that there was an incredibly wide variety of substances used and substituted in various tanning recipes throughout the ancient world....but often it is still considered the same method of tanning. From the example above 'sour milk tanning, buttermilk tanning, and egg tanning' are generally considered the same thing as 'brain tanning' as they affect the leather in the same way. Soap tanning does too. Oil tanning is a different process because the fish oils (usually cod) oxidize extremely easily, and in this oxidation they create polymers which change the collagen fibers of the skin. You can not wash out the effects of true 'oil tans' There is actually reasonable speculation that this type of tanning was being done by many native tribes in the northwest, and was clearly done by Europeans of this era on many of the deerskins that were exported to that continent. Oil tanning is a term that is commonly thrown around by people any time an oil is added to the tanning mix, not really knowing what it means. As far as urine tanning goes, I'd love to see some evidence of this. I've met one man so far, who claims to have actually seen someone 'urine tan' and he has described it to me in detail....so I'm gonna try it. But for the most part, it seems to be a term that is thrown around, with little real basis. Urine was commonly used by NW Coast and Arctic people to strip the oils out of skins that were otherwise just too dang oily to do anything with, but not as a 'tanning' agent. And while there were many, many sources of tannins for bark tanning, its still just considered bark tanning. The hides you are referring too that were sent from San Franciso to Boston, were destined for bark tanneries (and soon a huge bark tanning industry developed in California based on Tan Oak). Lime and saltpeter were both used in many traditional tanning methods, but neither is a 'tanning' agent, and wouldn't be known as 'lime tan' or anything like that. Lime was used in the first recorded account of Comanche brain tanning, and is standard in chrome tanning and bark tanning. As far as arsenic and acid (besides tannic) tans go, these are modern methods as far as I know. Do you know of any references to these being done during or before the period we are talking about? You asked what I thought of the comments about brain tanning being a dressing rather than a true tanning..... I do not know what the accepted definition of tanning was back in the early 1800's, but in modern times, 'tanning' occurs when the protein fibers (collagen) are permanently changed in their composition, so that the skin can never go back to rawhide. Brains do not do this, unless they do a very, very, weak oil tan (by oxidizing).....and I think it is more accurate to call it a dressing (experimenting with, I have successfully completely removed all of the effects of the braining by putting a brained and softened hide in a running creek for three days....all of the tactilely discernable effects of the brains were gone, it was rawhide again)....however smoke does tan a hide. Smoke contains a gaseous form of formaldehyde which is why it preserves stuff (and one reason that it is carcinogenic). It causes the collagen proteins to form new links to one another at different points on the protein chain (this is all in leather chemistry books if anyone is real interested I could give you some good titles). In graphic terms, it causes the fibers to form little bridges between one another that are permanent. You can not wash out the effects of the smoke....the color will wash out, but not the 'tanning'. It'd be more accurate if we all referred to it as 'smoke tanning' and 'brain dressing' like some folks do....but the term 'brain tanning' is popular and here to stay. As a side note, 'Alum Tanning' is not generally accepted as a 'true' tanning method, because the affects can be easily washed out. That is one reason it is generally referred to as 'Tawing' rather than tanning. A great book on ancient tanning methods and recipes from throughout the world, with excellent yet understandable explanations of the chemistry and related processes is 'Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers' by Ronald Reed. It also talks about the conversion of parchments to leathers that you were referring too. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing Date: 17 Dec 1998 14:57:01 -0700 >Matt > The cutouts, or"pinkings and piercings", was predominately a >southwestern addition to clothing styles. Many examples of Mexican and >Commanche leather goods have patterns cut through an outer cover with >leather or cloth to back with. > You also find the cutouts or 'piercings' as you call them in northern California Indian brain-tan, well north of Mexican influence (see old photos at the 'Trees of Mystery' museum, highway 101 south of Crescent City) and in some Plains Indian pieces. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: MtMan-List: Kit Carson's Coat? Date: 17 Dec 1998 15:09:29 -0700 Well I called the place that had the Kit Carson coat I was referring too. The woman who owned the pieces said that the buckskin pants (made from elk) that were there, were made shortly before his death in 1868. But the jacket was very old and dated in the early 1800's.........however, she then had me call her son who was also involved in the collection who said he wasn't even sure the coat was Kit Carson's.....and that I should talk to his mother.... So nothing definitive that's for sure, if I ever make it back down there, I'll check into it some more. If anyone else wants to check it out.....the gallery/museum is directly across the street from the entrance to the 'Kit Carson Home and Museum', and just a little to the right, in Taos NM. The phone number of this place (unfortunately I didn't get the name of it) is 505-758-9188. I talked to Paul, and his mother, the owners. One question for you all (as I am trying to learn your approach to this), if this coat can be reasonably placed as being used by Kit prior to 1840 in the Rocky Mtns, would its replica be considered period for what you folks do? Or is anything of Mexican or southwestern influence considered somehow off limits, or not a part of the same scene? Honest question... I realize it wouldn't make it appropriate for re-enacting here in northern Montana, but I'm curious whether you'd consider it 'mtn man'. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Farmer. Date: 16 Dec 1998 22:26:46 -0800 (PST) David, A book I would strongly recommend you find is called, "Diary of an Early American Boy, Noah Blake 1805" by Eric Sloane, ISBN 0-345-32100-6. I think it may be out of print, but try ordering from Barnes & Noble. That's where I got mine. It is a diary of a 15 year old boy who lined on a frontier farm in 1805. Excellent reading. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: misc topics Date: 17 Dec 1998 15:14:24 +0100 Maybe I should explain that I do all this chatter at work 1 when I shouldbe doing something productive. Therefore, I do nothave at hand a lot of books to pullout to cite specific page references for everything I say. However, I usually try to be very careful to differentiate between something that is just my conclusion from something that other documentation. If I don't "footnote" things I say, that is the reason. That being said, there was a request for some background on tanning. Suggest you look at Welsh, Peter. "Tanning in the United States to 1850" Smithsonian Institution Press (1964). That is a source for the large number of tanneries in US (govt estimate of 8229 in 1840, p. 13); and for a reference to leather breeches. Trench Coxe (otherwise known as the Perveyor of Public Suplies) wrote in 1812 of the importance of leather and the "necessaries or plain conveniences" made from it. In that list he included "leathern breeches." (p. 3) The importance of leather breeches to the working man in late 18th and early 19th centuries is discussed in Gehret, Ellen, "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing." Liberty Cap Books, York, PA (1976), pp. 126-27. I do not know where, exactly, the leather to make garments (principally gloves and breeches) came from in this country in the early 19th centuries. Being a leather garment maker was a trade subject to long apprentichship in this country (See Gehret) With over 8000 tanneries around, it looks like someone would have figured out how to turn out garment leather. But, it is certainly possible that most garment leather was imported. During the 1820s and 30s and even later the AFC shipped enormous quantities of "Shaved deer skins" out of St Louis bound for either New Orleans or New York. See, e.g., American Fur Company, Ledger S, "Packing Book, AFC Western, 1830-33." These could have gone to American or European tanneries, I don't know. At the same time, the AFC dealt in comparatively minute numbers of "dressed" (ie probably brain tanned) hides. The numbers are just very small. There are occasional field journal references to men buying dressed hides from the Indians. Osborne Russell's bunch, for example, bought a quantity of excellent smoked hides from a group of "Sheepeater" Shoshoni that hemet in what is not Yellowstone Park. (Sorry, don't have page #). I assume that most of these types of hides went into moccasins because they never talk about sitting around making their own clothes. Compare, for example, the L & C journals when they did dress their own hides and make their own clothes. Whenever they stopped to do it (eg at Ft Clatsop), it was a major party of the journal entries. The same thing is just missing from "mtn man" journals. As far as Kit Carson goes, we have a number of detailed transactions by Carson when he was a customer at Ft Hall in the 1830s. What was he buying? beads, cloth, needles, cotton binding, coffee, sugar, tobacco, flour, etc. He also bought clothes: flannel shirts, silk handkerchiefs, shoes and "sattinet pants." (Ft Hall Day Book, entries for Feb 3, 1835; June 26, 1836, for example). One should be very careful about attributing such things at Carson's coat or the ever-popular Tom Tobin coat or the Marino Modena gun and pouch and the Bridger Hawken to the 1820-30 period. As someone else pointed out, these surviving items are usually the last ones these men owned in their lives in the 1850-70 period, not things that they used as beaver trappers in 1830. This kind of free association led in years past to lots of Calif Gold Rush period Hawkens being attributed to the 1830s. See also Russell's "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mtn Man" in which he illustrates a lot of 1860 period guns as typical mtn man material. Some people seems to like to dismiss any discussion of historical clothing that does not suit their ideas as attacks by the "fashion police." Funny you don't hear that in discussions about guns or traps. Would someone that said a coil spring wire trap was probably not typical of an 1830 beaver trap be accused of being "trap police"? Anyhow, some of the idea that the "Mtn man" dressed his own way comes probably from assumptions that he mand his own clothing and therefore did his own thing. Problem is, except for moccasins which they did routinely make themselves, there is very little evidence that the man in the field typically made any substantial part ofhis own clothing. The evidence is that it was mostly purchased. When you purchase, you get what someone else is making and therefore more or less the fashion of the time. That is why tight legged pantaloons are mentioned so often in 1830s transactions, that was the fashion of the times. Also, there was "fashion police" in the old West. George Simpson in 1824 upbraided one of the HBC brigade leaders for being dressed in tattered, patched, country clothes (Simpson, FurTrade and Empire"). In 1850, Rudolph Kurz observed from Ft Union that White men "dressing Indian" inspire "no special respect among the tribes; on the contrary, he rather lowers himself in their estimation." Kurz also said a White man dressing Indian was much more likely to be killed as an enemy. Hewett, ed. Journal of RF Kurz, Univ Neb. Press 1970 p. 134. Edwin Denig, who much influenced Kurz' views, said the same thing of Meldrum, the trader to the Crows: "Unless a white man were rich he became a sport of the savages when he went about naked and work long hair reaching to his shoulders, as was the practice with some white men at Fort alexander on the Yellowstone." In Ft. Sarpy Journal,Contributions to the Historical Society of Montana, Vol. X (1940), note 153. See also Hanson, The Traders Dress, Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, Vo. 25 No. 1, 1990. Whew! Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:38:41 -0400 Marion D. Watts wrote: >I'm not sure that this will be of help to anyone concerning brooms, but >being from the deep south and growing up in a rather "plain living" life >style, I was acquainted with several ladies that made their own brooms, as >their mothers before them had. They were fashioned from sage grass. That "sage grass" you mention is actually sedge, and the common orange-tan type you see growing all over the southeast is called 'broom sedge'. I presume that's because it was commonly used to make homemade brooms, as you describe. Bob Bob Spencer http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html non illegitimi carborundum est ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail Subject: MtMan-List: Re: unsubscribe Date: 17 Dec 1998 16:20:48 -0700 unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing Date: 17 Dec 1998 18:04:45 EST one of the sketch books (sorry for no citation, but they are in storage right now) shows a fringed southwestern style jacket with diamond shaped, red blanket wool cut-outs going up the lapels and around the collar, as well as around the cuffs. the top layer of the cuff and collar are also pinked. this jacket also has an exterior top pocket. It (the jacket) is part of the collection housed at the Museum of Anthropology in Albequerque. It is dated circa 1823. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: misc topics Date: 17 Dec 1998 16:36:04 -0700 Allen Thanks for the long reply. I'm at work too when doing this, but my taskmaster is myself, and its nice to give one's self a break from scraping hides, to learn and share a bit on the machine. Here are some thoughts on your recent responses in our ongoing discussion of period leather. 1. You're right in that I have always assumed that at least some of the mtn men made their own clothes and accoutrements.....and that this lead me to assume that they would improvise a bit to suit their own needs. Do others on this list agree with this assertion that nearly all of their clothing (aside from mocs) was purchased? 2. I very clearly did not hear any real evidence or sources for leather garments of the period being made out of bark tan.....only inferences from the fact that there were a lot of tanneries and garment makers. I would still love to know of some...not to challenge what you are saying (though I do doubt it somewhat) but for my own knowledge. 3. Have read several times the resource you mention. Not a primary source by any means, but some interesting stuff. (Welsh, Peter. "Tanning in the United States to 1850"). 4. The quotes regarding 'leather' breeches are highly open to interpretation. While there was often some clear distinctions between 'buckskin' being what we call brain or smoke tan, and 'leather' meaning bark-tan, this distinction doesn't seem to be any where near universal, or even necessarily predominant. 5. As far as exporting brain tan or 'dressed' leather, my research agrees with you. A lot of 'indian dressed' deerskins were shipped to England in the mid 1700's (hundreds of thousands), there are very good records of this, particularly from the southeast. As time went on, more and more of this trade involved sending raw deerskins rather than dressed ones, that were then presumably (can't back this up) oil-tanned in England. But definitely tanned in England ... buckskin was a major fashion rave of the time in Europe. There are accounts of these buckskin breeches being typically yellow....which has always made me think these were the ones they got from the Indians....but they certainly could have been dyed yellow. There was also (just a weird side note) a German brain tanning tradition still practiced in Europe in the 1850's. 6. I think your comment comparing period guns and clothing is relevant in some ways, but not completely. With the guns you are comparing pieces of technology, and a knowledge of the technology. With clothing, at least the context I've been writing and reading about on this list, the question is more along the lines of the assumption that one could personalize one's own clothing within the existing technology and knowledge of the day. I don't know practically anything about muzzleloading guns, but I'll try to make an analogy: Its more like some-one deciding to shorten the stock so that it fit their body better, or devised a different way of attaching the strap than was the 'norm' for such and such a reason. I kind of compare it to food. When you cook food at a re-enactment, do you only use recipes that you can document? Or do you think that it is somewhat reasonable to take some of the fixings that were available and used at the time and place, and cook them up without a documentable recipe? (with the obvious exception of it not being appropriate to take period fixings and deliberately make some favorite dish of a later time.....that not acceptable). As far as 'fashion police' go, I'm sure they existed. They've existed in every time and place, including our own. But like the guys on the yellowstone who grew their hair long and wore indian clothes, ...there have always been people who didn't follow the rules of the fashion police. And there is a huge leap from altering period style so that they fit the mtn man of the time's needs, to wholesale adopting a different style. My argument is that people would have altered stuff when it made practical utilitarian sense (and occasionally just because). Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WILLIAM P. GARRISON" Subject: MtMan-List: Unsubscribe Date: 17 Dec 1998 16:36:04 -0700 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE29DB.5DB3E580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE29DB.5DB3E580 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ig8XAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AEgBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFcAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAFNNVFAAaGlzdF90ZXh0QGxpc3Rz LnhtaXNzaW9uLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAAB0AAABoaXN0X3RleHRA bGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAAB8AAAAnaGlzdF90 ZXh0QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9uLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAIgAAAFNNVFA6SElTVF9URVhUQExJU1RT LlhNSVNTSU9OLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD8UUBCIAHABgA AABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEADAAAAFVuc3Vic2NyaWJlAIUEAQWAAwAO AAAAzgcMABEAEAAkAAQABAAuAQEggAMADgAAAM4HDAARABAAIwAJAAQAMgEBCYABACEAAABCMDJC MEZGNDE0MkFCRTExOTkyQ0NFQkMxNEUzODA5MwA8BwEDkAYAjAEAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAA AAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQCgYm0DFiq+AR4AcAABAAAADAAAAFVuc3Vic2NyaWJlAAIB cQABAAAAFgAAAAG+KhYDZIVS3AGVzRHSuOFERVNUAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAf DAEAAAATAAAAZ3JpenN0cEBtaWNyb24ubmV0AAADAAYQAAAAAAMABxAAAAAAHgAIEAEAAAABAAAA AAAAAAIBCRABAAAAhwAAAIMAAAAkAQAATFpGdU5XNqj/AAoBDwIVAqQD5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gK wHNldO4yBgAGwwKDMgPGBxMCg7ozEw19CoAIzwnZOxX/eDI1NQKACoENsQtgbjBnMTAzFCALA2xp vDM2DfALVRQiDAFwA2D+dAWQBUAKhQqLGcsS8hrfCiAVIQAfMAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAH MKDynuIVKr4BQAAIMKDynuIVKr4BHgA9AAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAKtK ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE29DB.5DB3E580-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing Date: 17 Dec 1998 16:41:44 -0700 The two fellows who responded earlier about cutouts (aka piercings), HBC and someone else, could you point me in the direction of a couple resources that have good pictures of some of these southwestern and comanche buckskins. My wife really likes them and is interested in specific shapes and if there were any reinforcements or the like to keep the holes from stretching out oddly. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson's Coat? Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:58:15 -0600 I will be in Taos for part of these holidays and will try to check it out. Iron Burner Matt Richards wrote: > > Well I called the place that had the Kit Carson coat I was referring too. > If anyone else wants to check it out.....the > gallery/museum is directly across the street from the entrance to the 'Kit > Carson Home and Museum', and just a little to the right, in Taos NM. The > phone number of this place (unfortunately I didn't get the name of it) is > 505-758-9188. I talked to Paul, and his mother, the owners. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments Date: 17 Dec 1998 19:02:49 -0400 John, I have run across many references concerning leather, whether offered for sale, taxed, whatever, in my browsing through the on-line archive of the Pennyslvania Gazette from 1728 to 1800. I've included some exerpts whic seem to bear on some of the points of the current discussion concerning dressed vs tanned, oil treated leather, etc. They are early, much earlier than the mountain man era, but shows that the terms and procedures existed long before that time. I hope you find them interesting. July 10, 1766 The Pennsylvania Gazette "The 5th inst. July, was broke open, the skin shop of Frederick Shinkel, and the following things stolen out of it, viz. 22 large pattern deer skins, Indian dressed, marked about the neck F, 6 ditto smaller, marked W, and 33 ditto oil dressed. Whoever secures the abovesaid skins, so that they may be had again,..." November 23, 1752 The Pennsylvania Gazette "...white oak hogshead beading, oil flints, Indian dressed deer skins, English ditto, cocoa, chocolate, bohea tea, coffee, and bottles. ..." December 9, 1772 The Pennsylvania Gazette "...the shotbag is made of old sheepskin, English dressed;" >Calf skins were commonly greased with equal quantities of cod-liver oil and >tallow, called dubbing, after bark tanning. September 10, 1777 The Pennsylvania Gazette "N.B. Ready money is given, by said Mentz, for any quantity of tanned and allom dressed sheepkins." >I overheard a discussion years ago that declared brain tan was actually the >"dressing" of skins and not a true tanning. I don't remember the particulars >but, wonder if you've encountered this distinction in your research. August 24, 1785 The Pennsylvania Gazette (detailing the amount of import tax) "...womens leather and stuff shoes, 1 s per pair; all dressed or tanned leather, 3d per pound; cheese, 3d per pound;..." April 23, 1777 The Pennsylvania Gazette "That the said Committee of fifty be authorised to take possession of all tanned and dressed leather, bar iron, &c...." November 7, 1781 The Pennsylvania Gazette PHILADELPHIA, November 7. Extract of a letter from General WASHINGTON, dated Head Quarters, near York, October 27, 1781. (This is from a list of soldiers and an inventory of gear (returns) surrendered at Yorktown) "60 dressed calf skins, 22 hides tanned leather." I'm sure you noticed that they tended to use the terms "tanned" and "dressed" as though they meant different things. Throughout my browsing, I never saw the term "Indian tanned", it was always "Indian dressed". They did always distinguish between "Indian dressed" and English dressed", though. You noticed also, of course, the "oil dressed" deerskins and "allom dressed" sheepskins. Bob Bob Spencer http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html non illegitimi carborundum est ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: more babbling Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:06:49 +0100 1. I am not arguing that the working man's breeches in America were never made from brain tan leather. I just don't know what material they were made from. In some upper-crust settings where they were used for riding breeches, they were described as "doe skin." That doesn'thelp much. I do suggest a theory that the same types of tailors who were making leather knee breeches in the 18th and early 19th centuries certainly might have been the same types who manufactured leather pantaloons and hunting shirts for sale in St Louis and other places in the 1820-30 period. They were likely commercially cut and constructed. This theory is reinforced by the fact that many of the trading posts in the West had tailors on premise. When detailed records are available (such as Ft Hall), they made both cloth and leather garments for sale. In St Louis these garments might have been made from whatever leather the breeches had been made from; in the West they certainly could have been made from "local" leather. 2. I am not arguing that garments were made from bark tan leather. I don't know whether they were or not. I don't know the range of leather that is possible with the bark tan method. Does it all come out like harness leather no matter what you start with, or what? What is a bark tanned deer or sheep hide like? 3. On the SWestern cut-out hide backed with cloth stuff, at least as far as Indian material goes, I think you'll find a lot more of it coming from the Western Apaches than from the Comanches. The Apaches commonly decorated by doing geometric cut-outs in soft hide or thin rawhide backed usually with red wool cloth (at least in the historic period). Two items that this is commonly seen on are double saddle bags and arrow quivers. I don't think Comanche people did much of this work. I can supply some cites if needed. While I usually take Thomas Mails with a grain of salt, his book on the Apache has numerous pictures of the Apache material. Mexican/Spanish involvement in this is something I don't really know about as far as age, applications, materials. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:04:11 -0700 The coat your talking about was Tom Toblin's, but the date the museum put on it is wrong, because according to his grandson, now in his mid 90's. Toblin was wearing this coat when he killed the Espensoia brothers and that was 15-20 years later than the date shown. Plus revolvers were carried by several army officers at the time, they refused to help in the fight and Toblin shot several with his Hawken and wounded one. Charles Hanson put the sketch in the Mountain Man Sketch Book, with a remark that the coat's location was unknown. Ray Turner, Dick Whitmer and myself (AMM brothers)were in Durango several years after the sketch book came out, in a small museum at the west end of town. I saw the coat hanging on the back wall behind the counter, called my friends over and told them, "there's Toblin's coat". An old man showing some people an apple peeler, that he was cranking, came over and wanted to know how I knew that the coat was Toblin's. I explained seeing it in a book and the stories I had read about Toblin, he became very interested and ask if we would like to see the rifle and a letter written about Toblin's deed. Turn's out he's Tom Toblin's grandson then in his late 60's, the letter was written for Kit Carson by an officer as Kit could not write, but had placed his mark on the letter. The rifle was a gift from the army for his deed and the reward money was never collected from the government. Oh, Toblin and Carson were related, cousins or second cousins ? But the coat looked real close to the drawing that Charlie had done, called and told him about the coat, was in the winter, the next spring he called and wanted to see it, so we met and drove down together to Durango from Loveland, Colorado. He took lots of pictures of it and tried to talk the grandson into letting the musuem have it, never got anywhere with a deal. So Kit Carson having one with cut out coat's like his relation is not a suprise. Buck _____________________________ -----Original Message----- >one of the sketch books (sorry for no citation, but they are in storage right >now) shows a fringed southwestern style jacket with diamond shaped, red >blanket wool cut-outs going up the lapels and around the collar, as well as >around the cuffs. the top layer of the cuff and collar are also pinked. this >jacket also has an exterior top pocket. It (the jacket) is part of the >collection housed at the Museum of Anthropology in Albequerque. It is dated >circa 1823. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing Date: 17 Dec 1998 18:49:31 EST Matt, I'll try and dig out the sketchbook that has the jacket i referred to and will give you the info. i had a jacket made using the drawings as referrence; the illustration from the museum cites the date 1823. The lapel, collar and cuff, in the area of the cut-outs are actually three layers of material. The bottom is the base skin of the jacket, then a layer of thin red blanket wool, then the top layer of skin has the cut-outs. The layers were hide-glued and stitched, and this arrangement seems to prevent 'stretching' of the openings where the wool shows through. Hope this helps, Ralph. (Barney P. Fife) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:22:31 -0700 That's "Etiquette" Dennis, not "you ett somethim." Buck ___________________ -----Original Message----- >So THAT'S why I haven't been tossed off the list yet.. Well I'll be didilly >damned!! > >Dennis > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >-----Original Message----- >From: Linda Holley >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 4:35 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks > > >>Etiquette??? what etiquette? I didn't know we had any. Thought this sight >was >>guided by freedoms of speech, who had knowledge, big brass ones, choices >to >>stick your foot in your mouth and who could run the fastest after throwing >the >>first punch. >> >>Linda Holley >> >>"Marion D. Watts" wrote: >> >>> My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list. I'm a >>> new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette. Your understanding is >>> appreciated. >>> Your most humble and obedient servant, >>> mdwatts@naxs.com >>> HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com >>> M. D. Watts >>> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: misc topics Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:48:35 -0700 -----Original Message----- Hello Camp, As Allen has pointed out leather breeches were popular, I have a pair of late leather breeches, drop front, comm.made and believed by Mrs.Z.Gates (author of "Marino Medina Mountainman"), to have belonged to Medina and worn by his step-son Louie at the turn of this century in town events in Loveland Colorado. >reference to leather breeches. Trench Coxe (otherwise known as the Perveyor of >Public Suplies) wrote in 1812 of the importance of leather and the "necessaries or >plain conveniences" made from it. In that list he included "leathern breeches." (p. 3) Again these breeches were late in his life as were his other items mentioned by Allen, just because they belonged to a mountainman doesn't make then "period" to the fur trade, with Medina he came late or at the end of the period. >One should be very careful about attributing such things at Carson's coat or the ever->popular Tom Tobin coat or the Marino Modena gun and pouch and the Bridger >Hawken to the 1820-30 period I have seen and handled Toblin's coat, but can't remember the leather (commerical or home tanned), the breeches are of a commerical type tanning, light gray to a off white in color, machine sewed on 2/3 's and some hand stiching on waist band. This was another item that Hanson wanted for the museum and time just flys, never got to do anything with them. Bill Cunningham will run an article in the next issue of T&LR about these breeches I believe. Interesting but would they have been used, Wes Housler and I have talked about this, as well as Wes and Jeff mention the use of breeches in their book, "Dress & Equipage of the Mountain Man". As others have stated isn't this better than having everyone complaining, research and ideas. Buck ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: misc topics Date: 17 Dec 1998 17:07:05 -0800 Matt, Matt Richards wrote: > 1. You're right in that I have always assumed that at least some of the mtn > men made their own clothes and accoutrements.....and that this lead me to > assume that they would improvise a bit to suit their own needs. Do others on > this list agree with this assertion that nearly all of their clothing (aside > from mocs) was purchased? Thanks for the opportunity to vote on something. I agree in principle with Allen's assertion that most if not all their clothing was purchased and I would add, or made for them by indian or white seamstress' on the scene. There were a lot more divers peoples (other than our heroes) on the scene than most realize. many of the engage's or hired help had families with them and many of these people came from the original fur trade activities in the Old North West. French, Half breeds, eastern indians, etc. Considering the evidence put forth on the amount of dry goods and sewing supplies sent west, one can extrapolate a thriving "cottage' industry going on for anyone able to sew garments in the "white" fashion. 2. I very clearly did not hear any real evidence or sources for leather garments of the period being made out of bark tan.....only inferences from the fact that there were a lot of tanneries and garment makers. I would still love to know of some...not to challenge what you are saying (though I do doubt it somewhat) but for my own knowledge. Can't add anything on this other than the volume of such organized business and home oriented tanning activity that was going on. > 3. Have read several times the resource you mention. Not a primary source by > any means, but some interesting stuff. (Welsh, Peter. "Tanning in the > United States to 1850"). > > 4. The quotes regarding 'leather' breeches are highly open to > interpretation. While there was often some clear distinctions between > 'buckskin' being what we call brain or smoke tan, and 'leather' meaning > bark-tan, this distinction doesn't seem to be any where near universal, or > even necessarily predominant. If that is the case then we will just have to live with the knowledge that Breeches made of leather are proper and can be made of indian dressed hides or other period correct leathers until a primary source comes along that says one or the other was the way it was done. > 6. I think your comment comparing period guns and clothing is relevant in > some ways, but not completely. With the guns you are comparing pieces of > technology, and a knowledge of the technology. With clothing, at least the > context I've been writing and reading about on this list, the question is > more along the lines of the assumption that one could personalize one's own > clothing within the existing technology and knowledge of the day. I don't > know practically anything about muzzleloading guns, but I'll try to make an > analogy: Its more like some-one deciding to shorten the stock so that it fit > their body better, or devised a different way of attaching the strap than > was the 'norm' for such and such a reason. If we compare the guns of the time and how they were thought of and use that as an analogy of how these people may have dealt with the subject of personal clothing then we would see very little "personalizing" of clothing. I don't recall seeing any period guns that were markedly altered other than some decorative things like brass tacks (which is probably by indians) and trying to add a rear sight to a smooth gun which was done quit a bit. There were many field repairs with wire and raw hide and damaged muzzles were cut down to allow continued use of the gun. there are some rare examples of trade guns being cut down at both ends to facilitate use on horse back or for concealment but this was not wide spread either. So how does that allow us to go Willie Nillie in creating new and individual ways of dressing for the present day historical reenactment? The bottom line is that if you can't place it in the time and locality of the event you are reenacting it really isn't the proper thing to do. That people do it don't make it right! > I kind of compare it to food. When you cook food at a re-enactment, do you > only use recipes that you can document? Or do you think that it is somewhat > reasonable to take some of the fixings that were available and used at the > time and place, and cook them up without a documentable recipe? (with the > obvious exception of it not being appropriate to take period fixings and > deliberately make some favorite dish of a later time.....that not > acceptable). There are many that try very hard to eat as the historical record says they ate. There are also many modern reasons why this is not always done. I and I'm sure many others try very hard, within the bounds of what is known, to walk the straight and narrow but when I can't, I try to be honest about it and say this is probably not right but for now it is the best I can do. I also try hard not to do things that are easily visible and are not period correct because many new folks will look at me walking down the trail in my "Pendlton Wool Chief Joseph Blanket Capote" and think, "gee that's a beautiful coat and Old Uncle Rog, who's been in this for 30 years, always does things right so that must be ok". > As far as 'fashion police' go, I'm sure they existed. They've existed in > every time and place, including our own. But like the guys on the > yellowstone who grew their hair long and wore indian clothes, ...there have > always been people who didn't follow the rules of the fashion police. And > there is a huge leap from altering period style so that they fit the mtn man > of the time's needs, to wholesale adopting a different style. My argument is > that people would have altered stuff when it made practical utilitarian > sense (and occasionally just because). I just loved Allens observations on "fashion police" and the fact that you don't hear about the "accouterment police" or the "gun police" or the "camp gear police" just says that people think they should be able to wear what ever they have spent their money on without critique. And my argument is that they didn't alter stuff when it made practical utilitarian sense in our modern context. Are your attitudes the same as your grandfathers or will they be shared by your great grand children? Hardly. Well the attitudes of people in the 18th and 19th Century were a lot different than those we harbor and live our modern lives by now. If we want to pretend to be living in those bygone eras' we are obligated to try to think like they did. What innovative ways would you portray some persona from the 13th or 14th Century if you were a member of the Honorable "Society for Creative Anachronism" 'It sure is impractical to were these cloths so I think I will be innovative and change the style and fabric to a more practical cut, etc. that I am aware of from the hundreds of years of history that followed those early Centuries'. Silly isn't it? This ain't the sixties and I ain't no free spirit "flower child" no more. I'm trying to recreate the American life style of the 18th and 19th Century and their "free spirit" is just romanticism on our part. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments Date: 17 Dec 1998 10:07:50 -0700 "Matt Richards" wrote: >>My understanding from primary source research is that hundreds of thousands of hides were sent to England.....many of them already brain and smoke tanned by Natives (such as the Creeks). As the 1700's went on, an increasing amount of these exported deerskins were sent untanned. They were then tanned in Europe, using an oil tanning process, and many of these were then shipped back to the US for use in garments. << Matt, thanks for this. At first, I was going to write & tell you that, from HBC & North West Company journals for the 1774-1821 period, the only hides that I recall being traded were for the use of the fur traders at their posts. But then I had a quick flip through the journal of NWC wintering partner Alexander Henry the Younger, and found the following information on what the NWC traded in 1805. It was an eye-opener. "Returns of Outfit of 1805, Receipted at Kamanistiquia [Fort William], 1806: [out of 141,581 skins & furs received, there were:] 4,065 Deer Skins... 3,497 Dressed [brain-tanned] Orignal [moose] Skins... 173 Dressed Cariboux Skins... 906 Deer Skins, damaged, and Biche [elk] Skins, staged[?]... 38 Does [elk] and Cariboux, dressed... 218 Orignals, dressed" (Henry the Younger, Coues ed., vol 1, pp. 283-284). (I've omitted the large numbers of beaver, marten, buffalo robes, etc. on this long list. There is also a smaller number of untanned 'parchment' skins.) This works out to 8,897 skins, which is only 6% of the total number of furs traded, but it's still a heck of a lot of brain-tanned skins going east from NWC headquarters on Lake Superior. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HAPPY HOLIDAYS.... Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:19:15 -0500 Addison Miller wrote: > > Leaving on Monday for the COLD midwest... Omaha, Nebraska... to spend > Christmas with my inlaws. > > Wanted to wish everyone out there a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS, and a wonderful > and prosperous 1999. Thanks! The same from us to you and yours! Best, Fred __ "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More on early tanneries Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:04:26 EST The following citations all come from "The Fur Trade," Vol. II, written by Paul C. Phillips, University of Oklahoma Press, 1961. While not as detailed as one might like, these references establish that there was a lot of "manufacturing" of leather products in America in its early years. I'll keep looking. p. 120 - "During the early years of the republice, the fabrication of pelts was an important industry. Imports from Europe were scarce, and hats, shoes, and clothing were produced almost entirely within the United States. Textile manufactures had not yet developed, and the chief raw material was the pelts of animals. Tanneries used deerskins for the manufacture of leather, and these skins came from the South as well as from the country along the northern Alleghenies." p. 120 - The furriers and tanners of the day operated individually, on a small scale. But there were many of them - enough to supply the needs of the country - and the aggregate of their business was large. Their names have mostly been forgotten, although the biographer of Astor has resurrected a number of them who were associated with the great fur merchant in the early years of his career. These include Robert Browne, the Quaker merchant, Hayman Levy, a Mr. Wilson, and Cornelius Heyer and Cornelius Heeney, who may have been the same person." p. 152 - "Philadelphia was second in importance to New York, in both trading and manufacture of pelts. It was the center of a long established tanning industry, and used many deerskins." p. - 161 - "Self-sufficiency had been forced on the country by a long period of commercial restriction [due to the War of 1812]. As a result, manufactures had developed, and among the important were manufactures from furs and skins. Leather-tanning had expanded to a value of more than $12,000,000 a year and used all the deerskins available." Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:30:58 EST You can buy seed for broom straw. That's how it's sold. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks Date: 17 Dec 1998 21:41:46 -0500 OOOOOOoohhhhhh.... sorry.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >That's "Etiquette" Dennis, not "you ett somethim." > >Buck >___________________ >-----Original Message----- >From: Dennis Miles >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 2:45 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks > > >>So THAT'S why I haven't been tossed off the list yet.. Well I'll be didilly >>damned!! >> >>Dennis >> >> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments >> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Linda Holley >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 4:35 PM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks >> >> >>>Etiquette??? what etiquette? I didn't know we had any. Thought this >sight >>was >>>guided by freedoms of speech, who had knowledge, big brass ones, choices >>to >>>stick your foot in your mouth and who could run the fastest after throwing >>the >>>first punch. >>> >>>Linda Holley >>> >>>"Marion D. Watts" wrote: >>> >>>> My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list. I'm a >>>> new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette. Your understanding is >>>> appreciated. >>>> Your most humble and obedient servant, >>>> mdwatts@naxs.com >>>> HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com >>>> M. D. Watts >>>> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Pennsylvania Gazette's Date: 17 Dec 1998 19:45:11 -0700 Bob, Could you give us the URL for the Pennsylvania Gazette, for one I would be interested in looking at this information as I have (3) original Pennsylvania Gazette's that fall in the time frame you have stated. Would be fun to compare what someone has put on the internet compared to the originals. Thanks Buck ___________________ -----Original Message----- >John, I have run across many references concerning leather, whether offered >for sale, taxed, whatever, in my browsing through the on-line archive of >the Pennyslvania Gazette from 1728 to 1800. I've included some exerpts .... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Austin, Tim" Subject: MtMan-List: Broom Straw Date: 17 Dec 1998 12:56:24 -0600 Have never seen any, but all the people around where I live, scenic, sunny, Southwestern Oklahoma, talk about growing it for commercial purposes. Many that are my age said it was their job when they were in high school to go out and cut it. From what they say, it is grown specifically for broom straw, it is not a by product of something else. I will check and post it tomorrow. Tim Austin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Bodmer material Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:03:48 -0700 Ladies & Gentlemen, For your information there is a good article on "Karl Bodmer's Journey" in the Feb. 1999 issue of "Early American Homes" on page 52 to page 59. Shows some pictures that we normally do not see from the east, like "Mauch Chunk" Pennsylvania 1832, the Industrial Revolution in America, "Niagara Falls" 1833 or "Fox River" shown at the confluence with the Wabash in1833. An interesting landscape of Bethlehem Pennsylvania, when Bodmer made his visit, there were 1,000 people located in the area. The article tells about his eastern experience, but best of all lets us know that the Joslyn Museum in Omaha has his books and prints available and can be ordered over the phone with a credit card. (402) 342-3300 phone / open from 10 am to 4 pm Mon. - Fri. "Karl Bodmer's America" (2nd printing) list for $110 on sale for $100 "Karl Bodmer's Eastern Views" is $29.95 They charge $10.00 postage for 2nd day del. and that's how long it took for mine to arrive. When ordering ask for "Karl Bodmer Mail Order Opportunties", this is a listing of available prints for sale starting at $5 and going to $30, plus a color flyer with small pictures of the prints. Tell the wife it would make a good Christmas present and she still has time to get it. Later Buck ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Pennsylvania Gazette's Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:08:22 -0400 >Could you give us the URL for the Pennsylvania Gazette, Sure, Buck, glad to. This database has become my very favorite site on the internet. The URL is: http://204.170.102.11/cgi-bin/accessible/verify.pl In case anyone else is interested, here is the description of the database from the blurb at the site: THE PENNSYLVANIA GAZETTE, 1728-1800 (100,000 records; more than 40 MILLION words) Published in Philadelphia from 1728 through 1800, The Pennsylvania Gazette is considered The New York Times of the 18th century. It provides the reader with a first hand view of colonial America, the American Revolution and the New Republic, and offers important social, political and cultural perspectives of each of the periods. Thousands of articles, editorials, letters, news items and advertisements cover the Western Hemisphere, from the Canadian Maritime Provinces, through the West Indies and North and South America, giving a detailed glimpse of issues and lifestyles of the times. Also included is the full-text of such important writings such as: the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, Letters from a Farmer, Thomas Payne's Common Sense, The Federalist Papers, etc. These include: Folio I - (1728 - 1750) "Benjamin Franklin's Newspaper" Folio II - (1751 - 1765) "The French & Indian War" Folio III - (1766 - 1783) "The American Revolution" Folio IV - (1784 - 1800) "The New Republic" ********************* Bob Bob Spencer http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html non illegitimi carborundum est ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Pennsylvania Gazette's Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:09:55 -0700 Bob, I see what you mean, this is a good site, thank you. Buck ___________________ -----Original Message----- >>Could you give us the URL for the Pennsylvania Gazette, > >Sure, Buck, glad to. This database has become my very favorite site on the >internet. The URL is: > >http://204.170.102.11/cgi-bin/accessible/verify.pl > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments Date: 17 Dec 1998 18:27:18 -0600 Washtahay- At 02:45 PM 12/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >As far as arsenic and acid (besides tannic) tans go, these are modern >methods as far as I know. Do you know of any references to these being done >during or before the period we are talking about? I've made no particular study of it, but I recall mention of some tanners using various acids in England. Unfortunately, I can't recall a time period, so I don't even know which century's references I should start checking. Also, FWIW, many county histories published back east make references to what seems to be a LOT of tanneries. Census records will also show many, as will searches of deeds and wills. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments Date: 17 Dec 1998 19:39:03 -0800 At the risk of getting a little "kinky", I've read on a couple of occasion that the trade of the "Tinker" involved he collection of urine (especially female due to it's supposed higher urea content) for the production of gunpowder in early colonial times. Perhaps "tanning" was also involved....???? OK..rake me over the coals!!!! And lets not get pissy over this. John Funk (or maybe I should stay anonymous on this one) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California trapping brigades Date: 17 Dec 1998 23:49:19 EST This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_913956612_boundary Content-ID: <0_913956612@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Several of you have asked for further info regarding the trapping brigades entering California. I have attached a file, written in WordPerfect, that provides a very brief outline of each brigade. While it was compiled for another purpose, it does not have good documentation. Thus, I have added a list of books that have good info on these same men and brigades to help you continue your own research. Let me know if I can help you in any way. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com --part0_913956612_boundary Content-ID: <0_913956612@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="BONAVENT.URA" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Content-disposition: inline /1dQQ6kKAAABCgIAAAAAAAIAFgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAkAAAEABgAAAEQBAAAACQAAAQAGAAAA SgEAAAgjAQAAAA8BAABQAQAAAAkBAAAABgAAAF8CAAAIBQEAAAC8BgAAZQIAAAAJAQAAAAYA AAAhCQAACAEBAAAADAAAACkKAAAIIgEAAAB7AAAAJwkAAAgCAQAAABAAAAA1CgAAACEBAAAA YAAAAEUKAAAAVQEAAAAqAAAAogkAAAklAQAAAAYAAADMCQAACSkBAAAABAAAAKUKAAAIIAEA AAAvAAAA0gkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALMAIAAAAoAAAAAQoAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ///IPAAA///IPAAAAAFIAFAAIABMAGEAcwBlAHIASgBlAHQAAAAAAHIAaQBuAHQAZQByACAA TAAtADcANQAwAAAASXRhbGljAFN5bWJvbAAAVGltZXMgTkhQTEouUFJTAFJTADDAADgBnAAc ApwAHAI4AcAAMAD/AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: thanks ralph Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:29:39 -0700 Ralph, Definitely helps, can easily see how hide glue-ing the layers would help make it work, thanks for the detail Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Pennsylvania Gazette's Date: 18 Dec 1998 00:45:09 -0500 I also thank you. This is a great sight for some of the American History in my classroom. Linda Holley Barry Conner wrote: > Bob, > I see what you mean, this is a good site, thank you. > > Buck > ___________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Spencer > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 8:07 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Pennsylvania Gazette's > > >>Could you give us the URL for the Pennsylvania Gazette, > > > >Sure, Buck, glad to. This database has become my very favorite site on the > >internet. The URL is: > > > >http://204.170.102.11/cgi-bin/accessible/verify.pl > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More on early tanneries Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:40:00 -0700 Great comments on early tanneries, does this book point to any of the actual tanning processes, ie bark tan, oil tan or what? Matt Richards www.braintan.com 2755 Sinclair Creek Rd Eureka MT 59917 406-889-5532 Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books and class schedules. -----Original Message----- >The following citations all come from "The Fur Trade," Vol. II, written by >Paul C. Phillips, University of Oklahoma Press, 1961. While not as detailed >as one might like, these references establish that there was a lot of >"manufacturing" of leather products in America in its early years. I'll keep >looking. > >p. 120 - "During the early years of the republice, the fabrication of pelts >was an important industry. Imports from Europe were scarce, and hats, shoes, >and clothing were produced almost entirely within the United States. Textile >manufactures had not yet developed, and the chief raw material was the pelts >of animals. Tanneries used deerskins for the manufacture of leather, and >these skins came from the South as well as from the country along the northern >Alleghenies." > >p. 120 - The furriers and tanners of the day operated individually, on a small >scale. But there were many of them - enough to supply the needs of the >country - and the aggregate of their business was large. Their names have >mostly been forgotten, although the biographer of Astor has resurrected a >number of them who were associated with the great fur merchant in the early >years of his career. These include Robert Browne, the Quaker merchant, Hayman >Levy, a Mr. Wilson, and Cornelius Heyer and Cornelius Heeney, who may have >been the same person." > >p. 152 - "Philadelphia was second in importance to New York, in both trading >and manufacture of pelts. It was the center of a long established tanning >industry, and used many deerskins." > >p. - 161 - "Self-sufficiency had been forced on the country by a long period >of commercial restriction [due to the War of 1812]. As a result, manufactures >had developed, and among the important were manufactures from furs and skins. >Leather-tanning had expanded to a value of more than $12,000,000 a year and >used all the deerskins available." > >Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 >P.O. Box 1228 >Quincy, CA 95971 >(530)283-4566 (H) >(530)283-3330 (W) >(530)283-5171 FAX >Casapy123@aol.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: misc topics Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:43:44 -0700 Capt Lahti says: So how does that allow us to go Willie Nillie in >creating new and individual ways of dressing for the present day historical >reenactment? The bottom line is that if you can't place it in the time and >locality of the event you are reenacting it really isn't the proper thing to do. >That people do it don't make it right! I don't believe I or anyone in this conversation has professed an interest in going 'willie-nillie' in creating new and individual way of dressing for the present day historical re-enactment. That this is a current problem or gripe, I recognize, but that isn't the direction of this conversation. Matt Richards www.braintan.com 2755 Sinclair Creek Rd Eureka MT 59917 406-889-5532 Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books and class schedules. -----Original Message----- >Matt, > >Matt Richards wrote: > >> 1. You're right in that I have always assumed that at least some of the mtn >> men made their own clothes and accoutrements.....and that this lead me to >> assume that they would improvise a bit to suit their own needs. Do others on >> this list agree with this assertion that nearly all of their clothing (aside >> from mocs) was purchased? > >Thanks for the opportunity to vote on something. I agree in principle with >Allen's assertion that most if not all their clothing was purchased and I would >add, or made for them by indian or white seamstress' on the scene. There were a >lot more divers peoples (other than our heroes) on the scene than most realize. >many of the engage's or hired help had families with them and many of these >people came from the original fur trade activities in the Old North West. >French, Half breeds, eastern indians, etc. Considering the evidence put forth on >the amount of dry goods and sewing supplies sent west, one can extrapolate a >thriving "cottage' industry going on for anyone able to sew garments in the >"white" fashion. > >2. I very clearly did not hear any real evidence or sources for leather garments >of the period being made out of bark tan.....only inferences from the fact that >there were a lot of tanneries and garment makers. I would still love to know of >some...not to challenge what you are saying (though I do doubt it somewhat) but >for my own knowledge. > >Can't add anything on this other than the volume of such organized business and >home oriented tanning activity that was going on. > >> 3. Have read several times the resource you mention. Not a primary source by >> any means, but some interesting stuff. (Welsh, Peter. "Tanning in the >> United States to 1850"). >> >> 4. The quotes regarding 'leather' breeches are highly open to >> interpretation. While there was often some clear distinctions between >> 'buckskin' being what we call brain or smoke tan, and 'leather' meaning >> bark-tan, this distinction doesn't seem to be any where near universal, or >> even necessarily predominant. > >If that is the case then we will just have to live with the knowledge that >Breeches made of leather are proper and can be made of indian dressed hides or >other period correct leathers until a primary source comes along that says one >or the other was the way it was done. > >> 6. I think your comment comparing period guns and clothing is relevant in >> some ways, but not completely. With the guns you are comparing pieces of >> technology, and a knowledge of the technology. With clothing, at least the >> context I've been writing and reading about on this list, the question is >> more along the lines of the assumption that one could personalize one's own >> clothing within the existing technology and knowledge of the day. I don't >> know practically anything about muzzleloading guns, but I'll try to make an >> analogy: Its more like some-one deciding to shorten the stock so that it fit >> their body better, or devised a different way of attaching the strap than >> was the 'norm' for such and such a reason. > >If we compare the guns of the time and how they were thought of and use that as >an analogy of how these people may have dealt with the subject of personal >clothing then we would see very little "personalizing" of clothing. I don't >recall seeing any period guns that were markedly altered other than some >decorative things like brass tacks (which is probably by indians) and trying to >add a rear sight to a smooth gun which was done quit a bit. There were many >field repairs with wire and raw hide and damaged muzzles were cut down to allow >continued use of the gun. there are some rare examples of trade guns being cut >down at both ends to facilitate use on horse back or for concealment but this >was not wide spread either. So how does that allow us to go Willie Nillie in >creating new and individual ways of dressing for the present day historical >reenactment? The bottom line is that if you can't place it in the time and >locality of the event you are reenacting it really isn't the proper thing to do. >That people do it don't make it right! > >> I kind of compare it to food. When you cook food at a re-enactment, do you >> only use recipes that you can document? Or do you think that it is somewhat >> reasonable to take some of the fixings that were available and used at the >> time and place, and cook them up without a documentable recipe? (with the >> obvious exception of it not being appropriate to take period fixings and >> deliberately make some favorite dish of a later time.....that not >> acceptable). > >There are many that try very hard to eat as the historical record says they ate. >There are also many modern reasons why this is not always done. I and I'm sure >many others try very hard, within the bounds of what is known, to walk the >straight and narrow but when I can't, I try to be honest about it and say this >is probably not right but for now it is the best I can do. I also try hard not >to do things that are easily visible and are not period correct because many new >folks will look at me walking down the trail in my "Pendlton Wool Chief Joseph >Blanket Capote" and think, "gee that's a beautiful coat and Old Uncle Rog, who's >been in this for 30 years, always does things right so that must be ok". > >> As far as 'fashion police' go, I'm sure they existed. They've existed in >> every time and place, including our own. But like the guys on the >> yellowstone who grew their hair long and wore indian clothes, ...there have >> always been people who didn't follow the rules of the fashion police. And >> there is a huge leap from altering period style so that they fit the mtn man >> of the time's needs, to wholesale adopting a different style. My argument is >> that people would have altered stuff when it made practical utilitarian >> sense (and occasionally just because). > >I just loved Allens observations on "fashion police" and the fact that you don't >hear about the "accouterment police" or the "gun police" or the "camp gear >police" just says that people think they should be able to wear what ever they >have spent their money on without critique. And my argument is that they didn't >alter stuff when it made practical utilitarian sense in our modern context. Are >your attitudes the same as your grandfathers or will they be shared by your >great grand children? Hardly. Well the attitudes of people in the 18th and 19th >Century were a lot different than those we harbor and live our modern lives by >now. If we want to pretend to be living in those bygone eras' we are obligated >to try to think like they did. What innovative ways would you portray some >persona from the 13th or 14th Century if you were a member of the Honorable >"Society for Creative Anachronism" 'It sure is impractical to were these cloths >so I think I will be innovative and change the style and fabric to a more >practical cut, etc. that I am aware of from the hundreds of years of history >that followed those early Centuries'. Silly isn't it? > >This ain't the sixties and I ain't no free spirit "flower child" no more. I'm >trying to recreate the American life style of the 18th and 19th Century and >their "free spirit" is just romanticism on our part. I remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments Date: 17 Dec 1998 23:45:57 -0600 Matt, Bob and Alan, Great thread. The link to "The Pennsylvania Gazette" is invaluable. One receipt from 1825 calls for white vitriol (sulphate of zinc), cream of tartar, sal ammoniac (muriate of ammonia), vitriolic acid (sulphuric), nitric acid, spirit of salt (hydrochloric acid), oak bark, sumach, elm bark, sassafras, lignum vitae, and water. All in the same receipt. Some receipts are quite simple and only include one or two materials, some are very complex; I've always considered all of the ingredients a part of the tanning process. Bark tanning can produce very hard leathers which are primarily what we see today; the old receipts include many other techniques in combination with bark and seem to indicate supple leathers could also be produced using bark. From the same period I have recipes which include dog and pigeon dung used with water and sumach, several call for soaking in a fermented liquor of bran and water, some with and some without oil, alum or tannin. One oil tan receipt makes extensive use of both quicklime and slacked lime in preparation for the oiling which follows a long soak in fermented bran liquor. I asked about the term "dressing" as all of the old receipts I've encountered using this term only refer to mixtures which are applied to finished goods for preservation or protection. Oil, alum and other leather receipts are included with the tannin based receipts and all are called "tanning" even though the only early 1800's definition I've encountered states that tanning is to saturate a skin with tannin to promote the slow combination with the gelatine, albumen and fibrine contained in the hide. Pretty much what you said only not as technical. If I get some extra time I'll dig out some references to some of the other materials. Time has recently been in short supply, for quite a while. More old receipts I've found include alum than even bark, the acids and arsenics are more unusual. The best "tan" oak was taken from the Live Oak tree which is in short supply today, most common now in Texas and I think protected. As you said many trees were used for tanning in the past. RE: urine tan; have you ever smelled cheap modern Mexican garment or upholstery leather after a rain storm? They couldn't be using anything else. I'll keep an eye out for the old reference buried somewhere in my piles of stuff. Many of the old methods we will never know as they were amongst the "secrets" of a trade: and protected by the Masters of the guilds. A very common problem when working with old ways. John... At 02:45 PM 12/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >Johns reply to my comment of not knowing of any other period tanning methods >besides bark, brain, oil and alum was: > >Except for oil tanning, egg tanning, urine tanning, buttermilk tanning, sour >>milk tanning, arsenic tanning and acid tanning. >> > >I guess a lot has to do with how we define our terms. The term 'brain >tanning' did not exist to my knowledge before modern times. The accepted way >(among the leather industry) of defining tanning terms is based on how the >actual chemical change is affected on the leather. If something actually >changes the collagen proteins of the skin, permanently, it is a 'tanning' >agent. > >I am well aware that there was an incredibly wide variety of substances used >and substituted in various tanning recipes throughout the ancient >world....but often it is still considered the same method of tanning. From >the example above 'sour milk tanning, buttermilk tanning, and egg tanning' >are generally considered the same thing as 'brain tanning' as they affect >the leather in the same way. Soap tanning does too. Oil tanning is a >different process because the fish oils (usually cod) oxidize extremely >easily, and in this oxidation they create polymers which change the collagen >fibers of the skin. You can not wash out the effects of true 'oil tans' >There is actually reasonable speculation that this type of tanning was being >done by many native tribes in the northwest, and was clearly done by >Europeans of this era on many of the deerskins that were exported to that >continent. Oil tanning is a term that is commonly thrown around by people >any time an oil is added to the tanning mix, not really knowing what it >means. > >As far as urine tanning goes, I'd love to see some evidence of this. I've >met one man so far, who claims to have actually seen someone 'urine tan' and >he has described it to me in detail....so I'm gonna try it. But for the most >part, it seems to be a term that is thrown around, with little real basis. >Urine was commonly used by NW Coast and Arctic people to strip the oils out >of skins that were otherwise just too dang oily to do anything with, but not >as a 'tanning' agent. > >And while there were many, many sources of tannins for bark tanning, its >still just considered bark tanning. The hides you are referring too that >were sent from San Franciso to Boston, were destined for bark tanneries (and >soon a huge bark tanning industry developed in California based on Tan Oak). > >Lime and saltpeter were both used in many traditional tanning methods, but >neither is a 'tanning' agent, and wouldn't be known as 'lime tan' or >anything like that. Lime was used in the first recorded account of Comanche >brain tanning, and is standard in chrome tanning and bark tanning. > >As far as arsenic and acid (besides tannic) tans go, these are modern >methods as far as I know. Do you know of any references to these being done >during or before the period we are talking about? > > >You asked what I thought of the comments about brain tanning being a >dressing rather than a true tanning..... > >I do not know what the accepted definition of tanning was back in the early >1800's, but in modern times, 'tanning' occurs when the protein fibers >(collagen) are permanently changed in their composition, so that the skin >can never go back to rawhide. Brains do not do this, unless they do a very, >very, weak oil tan (by oxidizing).....and I think it is more accurate to >call it a dressing (experimenting with, I have successfully completely >removed all of the effects of the braining by putting a brained and softened >hide in a running creek for three days....all of the tactilely discernable >effects of the brains were gone, it was rawhide again)....however smoke does >tan a hide. > >Smoke contains a gaseous form of formaldehyde which is why it preserves >stuff (and one reason that it is carcinogenic). It causes the collagen >proteins to form new links to one another at different points on the protein >chain (this is all in leather chemistry books if anyone is real interested I >could give you some good titles). In graphic terms, it causes the fibers to >form little bridges between one another that are permanent. You can not wash >out the effects of the smoke....the color will wash out, but not the >'tanning'. It'd be more accurate if we all referred to it as 'smoke tanning' >and 'brain dressing' like some folks do....but the term 'brain tanning' is >popular and here to stay. > >As a side note, 'Alum Tanning' is not generally accepted as a 'true' tanning >method, because the affects can be easily washed out. That is one reason it >is generally referred to as 'Tawing' rather than tanning. > >A great book on ancient tanning methods and recipes from throughout the >world, with excellent yet understandable explanations of the chemistry and >related processes is 'Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers' by Ronald >Reed. It also talks about the conversion of parchments to leathers that you >were referring too. > >Matt Richards >www.braintan.com > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period clothing Date: 17 Dec 1998 23:05:34 -0700 Whats interesting to me in this discussion, is that I see many of the folks who I'm assuming have been doing this for a long time, easily coming to the conclusion that any ideas of altering period clothing as equalling the wholesale bastardization of what was worn. My guess is that this is a hot issue because so many folks do wholesale bastardizations, and that this is a long standing issue. The original context of this conversation was not the idea that one has the right to run 'willie-nillie' over period styles, but that perhaps mtn men of this era did alter some of their stuff to make it more practical for their immediate survival situations, within the context of period materials, technology and styles. This is a far jump from the defensive stances that I read several of you taking. If you could not lump this with the countless previous discussions you've perhaps had with folks who've wanted to just make what'ever the hell they want, and look at the actual context of the conversation, I think we would get farther with it. In all due respect, Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period clothing Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:16:28 -0800 Waugh: I have read with interest the discussions on clothing and now on tanning. Great infomation............ but it seems that after a day or two we begin to start using the "you" and "I" and the discussion goes to hell in a hurry. Maybe that is an indication that we have said all there is to say! Gail Carbiener =================================================== -----Original Message----- >Whats interesting to me in this discussion, is that I see many of the folks >who I'm assuming have been doing this for a long time, easily coming to the >conclusion that any ideas of altering period clothing as equalling the >wholesale bastardization of what was worn. My guess is that this is a hot >issue because so many folks do wholesale bastardizations, and that this is a >long standing issue. > >The original context of this conversation was not the idea that one has the >right to run 'willie-nillie' over period styles, but that perhaps mtn men of >this era did alter some of their stuff to make it more practical for their >immediate survival situations, within the context of period materials, >technology and styles. This is a far jump from the defensive stances that I >read several of you taking. If you could not lump this with the countless >previous discussions you've perhaps had with folks who've wanted to just >make what'ever the hell they want, and look at the actual context of the >conversation, I think we would get farther with it. > >In all due respect, > >Matt Richards >www.braintan.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period clothing Date: 17 Dec 1998 22:45:11 -0800 Matt, So I'm listening. Whether needed or not I am taking a deep breath and waiting to clearly see the actual content of the conversation. In all due respect. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Matt Richards wrote: > Whats interesting to me in this discussion, is that I see many of the folks > who I'm assuming have been doing this for a long time, easily coming to the > conclusion that any ideas of altering period clothing as equalling the > wholesale bastardization of what was worn. My guess is that this is a hot > issue because so many folks do wholesale bastardizations, and that this is a > long standing issue. > > The original context of this conversation was not the idea that one has the > right to run 'willie-nillie' over period styles, but that perhaps mtn men of > this era did alter some of their stuff to make it more practical for their > immediate survival situations, within the context of period materials, > technology and styles. This is a far jump from the defensive stances that I > read several of you taking. If you could not lump this with the countless > previous discussions you've perhaps had with folks who've wanted to just > make what'ever the hell they want, and look at the actual context of the > conversation, I think we would get farther with it. > > In all due respect, > > Matt Richards > www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Matt's reply to John's comments Date: 17 Dec 1998 23:50:35 -0700 From John Kramer, >From the same period I have recipes which include dog and pigeon dung used >with >water and sumach, several call for soaking in a fermented liquor of bran and >water, some with and some without oil, alum or tannin. This is really cool to hear of in an American context (are these recipes in an early American context?). These methods were very common in europe and were generally known as 'bating' (for the dog and pigeon dung) or 'drenching' for the fermented bran. They are not 'tanning' agents, but were used after the liming process to further remove the mucus that inhibits the penetration of the tanning agents. A very typical process is: 1. flesh, 2. soak the hides in lime, 3. scrape (in modern times, split), 4. de-lime (in plain water or weak acids such as vinegar) 5. bate or drench. 6. soak in tannins for bark tan or cod oil for an oil tan 7. if a bark tan, then apply an oil 'dressing' of dubbin or tallow. The mucus I am referring to is found in all fresh skin, and has the function of allowing small molecules (like water and nutrients) to pass through, while inhibiting large molecules (such as bacteria and unfortunately for the tanner----oils or tannins). To remove this mucus is a basic step in any tanning process. Any kind of alkaline soak of the proper strength will remove most of it (such as a wood-ash lye, lime (either slaked or hydrated), or commercial lye (sodium hydroxide). Wood-ash lyes were very commonly used by native american tribes when brain tanning, and I would argue that for brain tanning, the purpose was not to slip the hair so much as to improve brain penetration (the two earliest sources that describe native tanning in detail both emphasize the use of wood-ash soaks------George Catlin, and John D. Hunter). Understanding this, and the resulting experiments that Michelle and I did are what resulted in our book 'Deerskins into Buckskins'. It makes the brains penetrate far better and easier, and greatly simplified our tanning. After the hide is soaked in alkali, and that alkali is rinsed out in plain water, hides can be soaked in biologically active acids ---- which is where the dog and pigeon dung, or fermented brans come into play (no evidence of this in Indian tanning and not something that we do, though I would like to play with it). The bacteria feed on the sugars that are in any remaining mucus (this mucus is a 'muco-polysaccharide', the saccharide being the sugar), and consume it, further opening up the hide structure and making it easier for your tanning agents to reach the fibers themselves. These substances were particularly used for soft leathers as it supposedly really loosens things up. In modern tanning this is still practiced, but the active enzymes have been isolated and can be applied in very controlled chemical situations (no need for anymore dog shit). Another material commonly used for this was beer dregs (another enzymatically active acid that digests sugar). >One oil tan receipt >makes extensive use of both quicklime and slacked lime in preparation for the >oiling which follows a long soak in fermented bran liquor. This is and was a common practice in most tanning methods for the reasons stated above. >I asked about the term "dressing" as all of the old receipts I've encountered >using this term only refer to mixtures which are applied to finished goods for >preservation or protection. Dressing commonly refers to the oiling of a hide to improve its pliability.....which is what tallows and dubbins applied after a bark tan do. The hide is already tanned, by the bark, but the oils make it far more pliable and soft. One of the weird things about 'brain' tanning is that this is generally done before the actually tanning (by the smoke). This is partly the concept behind the 'pre-smoking' that the Dinsmore's do. In their method (also used by various Canadian tribes on their Moose skins), the tanning comes first and then the dressing...as in most commercial tanning methods. The challenge with understanding references to oils and tanning is that oils are used for two purposes.......for both tanning and 'dressing'. Different oils are generally used for each. Cod oil is, and was, the oil preferred for oil tanning (changing the actual structure of the fibers)-----it is reasonably safe (though not completely, because it can be used as a dressing) to assume that where-ever cod oil is mentioned in association with tanning that an oil tan is being practiced-----, while dubbins and tallows were used for 'dressing'. In reading the historical record this can be quite confusing for folks who don't understand this distinction. The properties of 'oil-tans' are very similar to that of 'brain tans', in look, feel and use. They can be reasonably inexpensive as it does lend itself to a modern industrial tanning process---- I think it is an excellent choice for folks who don't want to spend the money or time on brain tan, a far better choice than chrome-tan. Crazy Crow currently has a great deal on German oil-tans. I highly recommend 'Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers' by Ronald Reed. It describes all of this in terms that you don't need a leather chemistry degree to understand. This book is available at most major University libraries. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments Date: 18 Dec 1998 03:12:33 -0800 bark tan was extensive in California a mans rigging hors gear was of a color that if he road into strange camp you could tell by the color of the leather if he was from California or the general area there of iv never heard of bark tan being used for garments. to much tannic acid. bark tan a derivative of tan oak i flourishes in this area. the wild cattle in this area and southern california were used extensively for leather. they were killed just for the hides and left to rot. the indians were used in the manufacture. i think texas was another area that had this industry. some skins were shipped out all over the world and indeed to Mexico. there were tanneries all over the southern ca area in late 1700 hud and early 1800hds. enough of my babble. iron tongue. Matt Richards wrote: > Allen > I appreciate your spoutin off! Makes for good conversation and learning. I > disagree with you on a number of points....here goes. > > 1) You are right that there were 'commercial' tanneries throughout the > colonies and states...and that they predominantly bark tanned. In the > moderate amount of research I've done on this, I have found no evidence of > any other type of tanning being done in a tannery of the day. > > Bark tan is not a material that has, or was, commonly used as a garment > leather in any period of time. Bark tanned leather just doesn't lend itself > well to garments (doesn't breath, is thicker and stiffer). Of course it's > excellent for shoes (in town), bags, water bottles, belts and countless > other uses. But garments ain't one of them (with the exception of armor in > the middle ages). Do you have any evidence of it being used for shirts, > jackets, breeches or the like during this era? > > Bark tanneries were in fact one of the very earliest forms of > industrialization in the US, in the late 1700's. It lends itself to being > industrialized because it requires an immense quantity of bark to be > pounded, and that's the part of the process that was industrialized. Huge > toothed wheels were pulled around in a circle by horses and mules to crush > the bark. > > I have never heard of any other type of tannery in the early US, if anyone > has, lets hear about it. > > 2.) Alan, you stated that "Most of the tanning was for heavy leather, > but a significant part went into garment leather > which in turn was mostly used for breeches and > gloves. I believe that as the breeches went out > of fashion in the first quarter of the 19th > century, leather pantaloons were manufactured on > the same basis." > > I am very curious to know of any primary sources for this information. > > My understanding from primary source research is that hundreds of thousands > of hides were sent to England.....many of them already brain and smoke > tanned by Natives (such as the Creeks). As the 1700's went on, an increasing > amount of these exported deerskins were sent untanned. They were then tanned > in Europe, using an oil tanning process, and many of these were then shipped > back to the US for use in garments. Many more hides were tanned on people's > homesteads and in their backyards for use as garment leathers (this is > generally presumed to be brain tanning, though there isn't any specific > evidence I know of.....the only other real option was alum tanning). > > I have never read of tanneries in the US making garment leathers in the > 1700's or early 1800's, if you know of any sources for this information, I'd > love to know about it for my own studies. > > 3) As far as hides being smoked or unsmoked on the plains. My previous > statement was that smoking was not nearly as common of a practice amongst > Native peoples as most people presume (the common line is that white hides > were just for ceremonial use). You are right that there are many references > of tipi tops being cut up into moccasins, and that you can certainly find > pieces in museums that were smoked. You're also right that smoked buckskin > washed a great deal starts to look like it may have never been smoked. > > My comments on smoking is not based on 'common knowlege' as you termed it, > its based on studying ethnographies.....the earliest accounts of brain and > smoke tanning that seem to exist. I have a bibliography of well over 100 > accounts of Native tanning processes that I'm planning to put up on > braintan.com tomorrow. Admittedly, very few are pre-1840, but unfortunately > there are very few detailed accounts of Plains Indian tanning pre-1840 > (exceptions being John D. Hunter's and George Catlin's). > > In all due respect, lets get down to the nitty gritty of what we really > know, and what is supposition! > > Matt Richards > www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Powell" Subject: MtMan-List: Unsubscribe Date: 17 Dec 1998 20:23:00 -0500 Unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Southwestern styles (aka Carson's jacket) Date: 18 Dec 1998 09:09:20 -0600 (CST) >One question for you all (as I am trying to learn your approach to this), if >this coat can be reasonably placed as being used by Kit prior to 1840 in the >Rocky Mtns, would its replica be considered period for what you folks do? Or >is anything of Mexican or southwestern influence considered somehow off >limits, or not a part of the same scene? Honest question... First of all, you need not document that Carson wore it unless you're doing Carson. All you need to do is to document that the style was available and used during the fur trade era in the west, and I think we've pretty much established that. Then you'd be alright to use it at a Rendezvous. Listen, just because you're in Montana, doesn't mean you can't dress SW'ern. The name of your state is Spanish, btw. There was already some Spanish influence there. Trappers roamed all over from the Missouri to the Gila. They didn't necessarily change their clothes from Northern to Southern when they moved, unless climate dictated. Traders came from all over to attend a Rendezvous. If they were more oriented to the SW like Carson and Young, then they might have dressed more Southwestern. Comfort and protection from the elements were more important than conforming to regional style. I think you'd be alright wearing a period Southwestern style outfit at a Montana rendezvous. Listen pal, if they can have Eastern longhunters and French Marines at a Rocky Mtn. do, and tipis at a Florida event, then I think you are in good shape. Whether you do the multi-decade Western fur trade or more narrowly, just the 15 year Rendezvous period, any way you cut it, Southwestern fur trade styles are more than appropriate at a Rondy. Get yourself a copy of Book of Buckskinning Vol. IV. It has an excellent chapter on Southwestern clothing styles written by our friend Cathy Bauman. Write me off line to talk about Montana. I have many good friends there, and I've done some research there as well. Buena Suerte HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WILLIAM P. GARRISON" Date: 18 Dec 1998 08:42:06 -0700 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A62.62A38DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A62.62A38DC0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ii4PAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AEgBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFcAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAFNNVFAAaGlzdF90ZXh0QGxpc3Rz LnhtaXNzaW9uLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAAB0AAABoaXN0X3RleHRA bGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAAB8AAAAnaGlzdF90 ZXh0QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9uLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAIgAAAFNNVFA6SElTVF9URVhUQExJU1RT LlhNSVNTSU9OLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAD8UUBCIAHABgA AABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAAQAAAAAAAAEFgAMADgAAAM4HDAASAAgA KgAGAAUAMAEBIIADAA4AAADOBwwAEgAIACkAIQAFAEoBAQmAAQAhAAAAMEQ3NDNBREY5QjJBQkUx MTk5MkNDRUJDMTRFMzgwOTMAWQcBA5AGAMABAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAA AwA2AAAAAABAADkAQDE995wqvgEeAHAAAQAAAAwAAABVbnN1YnNjcmliZQACAXEAAQAAABsAAAAB vioWA2SFUtwBlc0R0rjhREVTVAAAACG4HaEAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABMA AABncml6c3RwQG1pY3Jvbi5uZXQAAAMABhAKE+hDAwAHEAsAAAAeAAgQAQAAAAwAAABVTlNVQlND UklCRQACAQkQAQAAALAAAACsAAAAdgEAAExaRnXar4w6/wAKAQ8CFQKkA+QF6wKDAFATA1QCAGNo CsBzZXTuMgYABsMCgzIDxgcTAoO6MxMNfQqACM8J2TsV/3gyNTUCgAqBDbELYG4wZzEwMxQgCwNs aQgxODAC0WktMTSeNA3wDNAaYwtZMTYKoP0DYHQFkAVACoUKixnAAcEvC0YUIh3yHBx1AIB1YpkE 8mJlHI8ZkzM2GwcrEvIe3yAVIQAkUAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcwwAjb45wqvgFAAAgwwAjb 45wqvgEeAD0AAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAA4V8= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A62.62A38DC0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments Date: 18 Dec 1998 10:46:08 -0700 Aaargh!! I thought I could rely on a nice, quiet Christmas season of Mtn Man postings so that I would be able to get my packing finished for my January move. But no, you guys just got real interesting all of a sudden... *Leather breeches:* There is documentation for at least one pair of breeches or trousers made from brain tanned leather for a fur trader. It was, if I recall correctly, made by a voyageur for North West Company wintering partner Archibald Norman McLeod c. 1803, when he was at Fort Alexandria (in SW Manitoba). The reference is in Charles Gates' _Five Fur Traders of the Northwest_. There are two pairs of English buckskin breeches from c. 1815 shown in _Revolution in Fashion_ (Jean Starobinski, ed; pp. 94, 150). In the photographs, the leather looks to me like a heavy suede; it appears to be heavier than the brain-tan I've seen. One pair is gold-coloured, the other is white. The breeches are in the collection of the Kyoto Costume Institute, who could settle this issue once & for all, if someone wants to write them. *Who made the clothes?:* Here's a response from the perspective of the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821. The voyageurs of the North West Company had most of their clothing supplied by their employers (See Alexander Mackenzie's introduction to his _Voyages_.) By the early 1820's, the HBC was also supplying their employees' clothing (George Simpson's _Athabasca Journals_). Both companies also brought in a lot of clothing as trade goods. However, the men also made their own winter clothing at least some of the time--I have a few references to voyageurs and their wives making capots, mittens, & socks as the winter begins. One of these is to David Thompson's men & women making these items of clothing before crossing the Athabasca Pass through the Rockies in 1810 (in Barbara Belyea's _Columbia Journals_). Moccasins were made by the country wives or traded from local Native women. Also, some fur posts had tailors. The HBC's Edmonton House (Edmonton, Alberta), c. 1795-1798, was one; Fort William (Thunder Bay, Ontario), the NWC headquarters, was another. Can you tell that my library is half-packed already? "Dave, my mind is going... I can feel it..." I can supply more details after we get unpacked in mid-January ; just drop me a line if you need the full references. (My e-mail address will stay the same.) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period clothing Date: 18 Dec 1998 10:01:35 -0800 Matt, I'm not as tired as I was last night when I first read this post so I would like to take another stab at an answer. Matt Richards wrote: > Whats interesting to me in this discussion, is that I see many of the folks > who I'm assuming have been doing this for a long time, easily coming to the > conclusion that any ideas of altering period clothing as equalling the > wholesale bastardization of what was worn. My guess is that this is a hot > issue because so many folks do wholesale bastardizations, and that this is a > long standing issue. It can be a hot issue and perhaps got to be but one of the problems with the course of the discussion is in fully understanding what some one is saying. I assume you hear what I am saying and you assume I am hearing what you are saying. Then I see something that makes me think you didn't hear and I talk louder. Well, I wasn't thinking that "any ideas of altering period clothing as equaling the wholesale bastardization of what was worn" was what was going on. What I was advocating is simply to not think that we can alter period clothing because we want to or think its better. If we want to be true to the idea of historical reenacting we need to be a bit restrained in our zeal to make it better unless we can show where or how that was done. > The original context of this conversation was not the idea that one has the > right to run 'willie-nillie' over period styles, but that perhaps mtn men of > this era did alter some of their stuff to make it more practical for their > immediate survival situations, within the context of period materials, > technology and styles. Well that is something else again entirely. "Within the context of period materials, technology and styles", I thought was what I was advocating. Sorry if that didn't come across. Again, though, I don't think it appropriate to assume 'they' did this because we might do it. > This is a far jump from the defensive stances that I > read several of you taking. If you could not lump this with the countless > previous discussions you've perhaps had with folks who've wanted to just > make what'ever the hell they want, and look at the actual context of the > conversation, I think we would get farther with it. Didn't mean to come on as defensive. If folks want to do their thing, they are surely welcome. There is a price to pay sometimes for that and it is usually in money wasted. I been doing this long enough to develop some strong opinions and gain a little knowledge. I feel you and I have a right and obligation to share our opinions and knowledge with anyone who cares to listen. I have enjoyed your contributions to the conversation and only jumped in when I didn't agree with what I was hearing. That hasn't been all that much either. Now back to the disscusion at hand or have we beaten it to death for now? I remain........ Respectfully, YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > In all due respect, > > Matt Richards > www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments Date: 18 Dec 1998 20:51:38 -0700 John, You mentioning "urine tan", years ago when Jack Gardener was building guns for Dixie and seen on many pages of their catalog holding an assembled kit gun, "that you could build", probably in the mid 60's. I was visiting Jack at Union City (Dixie Gun Works), Jack wanted to show me a mistake that Turner had made, "urine tan leather", you could smell it at least a 100 yards away with the door closed, The Mexican garments are very mild to this. Buck >RE: urine tan; have you ever smelled cheap modern Mexican garment or >upholstery leather after a rain storm? They couldn't be using anything else. >I'll keep an eye out for the old reference buried somewhere in my piles of >stuff. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Deer Hunters Journal / Holiday Wish Date: 19 Dec 1998 18:38:04 EST We seen reports of some great hunt's this season... Here are the Journal entries you didn't see.... 1:00 am - Alarm clock rings. 2:00 am - Hunting partner arrives - drags you out of bed. 3:00 am - Throw everything except the kitchen sink in the pickup. 3:05 am - Leave for the deep woods. 3:15 am - Drive back home and pick up gun. 3:30 am - Drive like a bat outta hell to get to the woods before daylight. 4:00 am - Set up camp - forgot the tent. 4:30 am - Head into the woods. 6:05 am - See eight deer. 6:06 am - Take aim and squeeze trigger. 6:07 am - "Click." 6:08 am - Load gun while watching deer go over the hill. 8:00 am - Head back to camp. 9:00 am - Still looking for camp. 10:00 am - Realize you don't know where camp is. Noon - Fire gun for help - eat wild berries. 12:15 pm - Ran out of bullets - eight deer come back. 12:20 pm - Strange feeling in stomach. 12:30 pm - Realize you ate poison berries. 12:45 pm - Rescued. 12:55 pm - Rushed to hospital to have stomach pumped. 3:00 pm - Arrived back in camp. 3:30 pm - leave camp to kill deer. 4:00 pm - Return to camp for bullets. 4:01 pm - Load gun - leave camp again. 5:00 pm - Empty gun on squirrel that's bugging you. 6:00 pm - Arrive at camp - see deer grazing in camp. 6:01 pm - Load gun. 6:02 pm - Fire gun. 6:03 pm - One dead pickup truck. 6:05 pm - Hunting partner returns to camp dragging deer. 6:06 pm - Repress strong desire to shoot partner. 6:07 pm - Fall into fire. 6:10 pm - Change clothes - throw burned ones into fire. 6:15 pm - Take pickup - leave partner and his deer in the woods. 6:25 pm - Pickup boils over - hole shot in block. 6:26 pm - Start walking. 6:30 pm - Stumble and fall - drop gun in the mud. 6:35 pm - Meet bear. 6:36 pm - Take aim. 6:37 pm - Fire gun - blow up barrel plugged with mud. 6:38 pm - Make mess in pants. 6:39 pm - Climb tree. 9:00 pm - Bear departs - wrap %&*$#@ gun around tree. Midnight - Home at last. WISHING ALL OF YOU AND YOURS A HEALTHY, HAPPY HOLIDAY SEASON AND A VERY PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR. THANKS TO EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU FOR SHARING THE YOUR WEALTH OF INFORMATION WITH THIS PILGRIM. yhs, Ralph Rosen aka PJ aka Shoots Himself, now most properly and deservedly named BARNEY P. FIFE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 08:59:47 +0100 All you folks out there who live in other climes might note that it was -21 this early a.m. up here in tropical Montana. Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its too damn cold to live in Montana. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Anderson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 12:14:23 -600 >All you folks out there who live in other climes >might note that it was -21 this early a.m. >up here in tropical Montana. >Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its >too damn cold to live in Montana. >Allen Chronister > > With all due respect and admiration to the gentleman from the warm and beautiful state of Montana, we in North Dakota have very little sympathy with ANYBODY when it comes to to the subject of cold... Jerry Anderson somewhere on the frozen prairies of Dakota, in a -42 wind chill. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eldon L Ayers <2badger@3rivers.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 11:27:59 -0700 Allen, This morning our ambient air temperature was -26. However, with our breeze blowing in off of the balmy Alaskan Interior our wind chill was -56. I second your thought and wondered if you might like to look into some real estate with me. We could go shares. I kind of like the Tropic of Cancer. Any thoughts? Were there trappers on the Amazon? Remember, a spit patch in this kind of weather freezes before it can be rammed home, warm up the bit before you put it in your horses mouth, and heat at least three changes of rocks for your bedroll. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 1:00 AM Cc: amm All you folks out there who live in other climes might note that it was -21 this early a.m. up here in tropical Montana. Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its too damn cold to live in Montana. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 10:41:58 -0800 Allen, Northern Cal., Shasta County, Fall River Mills: 3500 feet= -14degrees. No wind. Shucks, all you guys beat! At 10 am it's now warmed up to 6. John Funk ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 12:01:49 +0000 Hi Guys, Merry Christmas, etc... to all. It's 45 degrees here at 11:15 am, unusually cool. We actually had 1/8" of ice on some standing water (in containers) on back patio last night. I have faith though, we will probably have Christmas Dinner on the open air back patio , as we have for the last several years. I was born in Minnesota, but I'm getting used to this climate, as hard as it is to do so . Wishing you all the best in the coming New Year. Your brother , who is toughing it out on the Central Cal. Coast, Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Farabee Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 12:50:43 -0700 Eldon L Ayers wrote: > > Allen, > > This morning our ambient air temperature was -26. However, with our breeze > blowing in off of the balmy Alaskan Interior our wind chill was -56. I > second your thought and wondered if you might like to look into some real > estate with me. We could go shares. I kind of like the Tropic of Cancer. > Any thoughts? Were there trappers on the Amazon? > > Remember, a spit patch in this kind of weather freezes before it can be > rammed home, warm up the bit before you put it in your horses mouth, and > heat at least three changes of rocks for your bedroll. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen Chronister [SMTP:almont@mt.net] > Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 1:00 AM > To: chat > Cc: amm > Subject: MtMan-List: the season > > All you folks out there who live in other climes > might note that it was -21 this early a.m. > up here in tropical Montana. > Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its > too damn cold to live in Montana. > Allen Chronister To all of you in the frozen north! It is a cold +60 in sunny Phoenix, Arizona ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 12:28:58 -0800 Jerry and guys, I guess it is cold where you all are. Here in eastern WA., the area we call the Banana Belt, it was so warm on Sunday that the wife and I got out on the back deck and worked on our tans. I think it was 16 degrees or some such. The guy up at the strip mall had to dig up his 20+ palm trees and take them inside.Balmy compared to where you are I suppose. Hang in, I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 15:21:51 -0600 Doc Ivory's wife told me at the ' 96 national that in that part of the = country you have 10 months of winter and 2 months of visitors. You guys = just want to keep all that country to yourselves....don't blame you a = bit. It's one of the best example of God's handiwork that I have ever = seen. I envy you....except when it's -21 (no doubt with a 40 mph wind = to add emphasis). YMOS Lanney -----Original Message----- Cc: amm >All you folks out there who live in other climes >might note that it was -21 this early a.m. >up here in tropical Montana. =20 >Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its >too damn cold to live in Montana. >Allen Chronister > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 16:35:11 -0500 For we roasted Floridians, send us some cold. It is 80 degrees here. You can always come down for a visit Allen. Remember, I am trying to move out your way. Trying to discourage me. Linda Holley Allen Chronister wrote: > All you folks out there who live in other climes > might note that it was -21 this early a.m. > up here in tropical Montana. > Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its > too damn cold to live in Montana. > Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 16:03:45 -0700 Here is sunny Dubois Wyoming it was -35 sunday morning, went duck hunting with my boy, froze our fingers Damn it is cold Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 16:21:32 -0700 West Yellowstone Montana this morning -40 at my place. No wind. Watched the sun rise over Mount Holmes with a comforting cup of joe. 5 bison woke up in my front yard this morning. I love where I live - the cold just keeps out the riff raff. Get tough or die. ;-) Kurt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 17:51:29 -0600 Joe I came through Dubois about July 6 this year and noticed a lot of snow = in the shadows. It would take this Texas boy a while to get used to = that kind of cold. I have primitive camped here at 6 above and that was = cool enough. Keep warm. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >Here is sunny Dubois Wyoming it was -35 sunday morning, went duck = hunting >with my boy, froze our fingers >Damn it is cold >Joe > >Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery >Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 >Write for custom tanning prices >We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather = and >hair on robes >Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, = baskets >check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail Subject: Re: MtMan-List: UNSUBSCRIBE Date: 21 Dec 1998 13:54:30 -0700 WOULD LIKE TO UNSUBSCRIBE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Deer Hunters Journal / Holiday Wish Date: 21 Dec 1998 20:51:26 EST now here is a person who has been totally honest with their journel ---no frills or fancy stuff---just finish up the annual christmas doins here at the house had over 150 people passing thru for chillie and wild tyrkey, deer and the fixins---and remembered that I had not sent greetings and cheers to all the list may your trails be long and weather be fair this includes you guys in montana and alaska and your traps full and may the big maker look over you as you travel during the holiday season---- "HAWK" Michael pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:38:04 EST RR1LA@aol.com writes: >We seen reports of some great hunt's this season... Here are the >Journal >entries you didn't see.... > > 1:00 am - Alarm clock rings. > 2:00 am - Hunting partner arrives - drags you out of bed. > 3:00 am - Throw everything except the kitchen sink in the pickup. > 3:05 am - Leave for the deep woods. > 3:15 am - Drive back home and pick up gun. > 3:30 am - Drive like a bat outta hell to get to the woods before >daylight. > 4:00 am - Set up camp - forgot the tent. > 4:30 am - Head into the woods. > 6:05 am - See eight deer. > 6:06 am - Take aim and squeeze trigger. > 6:07 am - "Click." > 6:08 am - Load gun while watching deer go over the hill. > 8:00 am - Head back to camp. > 9:00 am - Still looking for camp. >10:00 am - Realize you don't know where camp is. > Noon - Fire gun for help - eat wild berries. >12:15 pm - Ran out of bullets - eight deer come back. >12:20 pm - Strange feeling in stomach. >12:30 pm - Realize you ate poison berries. >12:45 pm - Rescued. >12:55 pm - Rushed to hospital to have stomach pumped. > 3:00 pm - Arrived back in camp. > 3:30 pm - leave camp to kill deer. > 4:00 pm - Return to camp for bullets. > 4:01 pm - Load gun - leave camp again. > 5:00 pm - Empty gun on squirrel that's bugging you. > 6:00 pm - Arrive at camp - see deer grazing in camp. > 6:01 pm - Load gun. > 6:02 pm - Fire gun. > 6:03 pm - One dead pickup truck. > 6:05 pm - Hunting partner returns to camp dragging deer. > 6:06 pm - Repress strong desire to shoot partner. > 6:07 pm - Fall into fire. > 6:10 pm - Change clothes - throw burned ones into fire. > 6:15 pm - Take pickup - leave partner and his deer in the woods. > 6:25 pm - Pickup boils over - hole shot in block. > 6:26 pm - Start walking. > 6:30 pm - Stumble and fall - drop gun in the mud. > 6:35 pm - Meet bear. > 6:36 pm - Take aim. > 6:37 pm - Fire gun - blow up barrel plugged with mud. > 6:38 pm - Make mess in pants. > 6:39 pm - Climb tree. > 9:00 pm - Bear departs - wrap %&*$#@ gun around tree. > Midnight - Home at last. > >WISHING ALL OF YOU AND YOURS A HEALTHY, HAPPY HOLIDAY SEASON AND A >VERY >PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR. THANKS TO EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU FOR SHARING >THE YOUR >WEALTH OF INFORMATION WITH THIS PILGRIM. yhs, Ralph Rosen aka PJ >aka Shoots >Himself, now most properly and deservedly named BARNEY P. FIFE > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 20:51:27 EST was 82 here today at about 11:30 plan on going fishing tonight and it will be extremely chilly (may need a jacket) about 55 weather is tough you guys come and visit room for 3 tee pee in back yard but will be tight---lots of small furry critters running---we feed them ever day so they are fat and ready to eat--- its tough when people snibble about the weather---happy holidays--- "HAWK" Michael pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:50:43 -0700 Gary Farabee writes: >Eldon L Ayers wrote: >> >> Allen, >> >> This morning our ambient air temperature was -26. However, with our >breeze >> blowing in off of the balmy Alaskan Interior our wind chill was -56. > I >> second your thought and wondered if you might like to look into some >real >> estate with me. We could go shares. I kind of like the Tropic of >Cancer. >> Any thoughts? Were there trappers on the Amazon? >> >> Remember, a spit patch in this kind of weather freezes before it can >be >> rammed home, warm up the bit before you put it in your horses mouth, >and >> heat at least three changes of rocks for your bedroll. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Allen Chronister [SMTP:almont@mt.net] >> Sent: Monday, December 21, 1998 1:00 AM >> To: chat >> Cc: amm >> Subject: MtMan-List: the season >> >> All you folks out there who live in other climes >> might note that it was -21 this early a.m. >> up here in tropical Montana. >> Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its >> too damn cold to live in Montana. >> Allen Chronister > > >To all of you in the frozen north! It is a cold +60 in sunny Phoenix, >Arizona > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 19:29:28 -0800 (PST) On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Kurt Westenbarger wrote: > West Yellowstone Montana this morning -40 at my place. No wind. > Watched the sun rise over Mount Holmes with a comforting cup of joe. 5 > bison woke up in my front yard this morning. I love where I live - the > cold just keeps out the riff raff. Get tough or die. ;-) On the get tough or die note, I've always enjoyed a really hard winter here in Idaho. The number of "For Sale" signs that pop up after a killer winter are amazing, as folks limp back to whereever it is they came from. Had just a wee nip in the air today, only got down to zero. Had to roll down my sleeves while working. Can't hold a candle to them fella's in Montana and N. Dakota. Too nippy to shoot as the bullet freezes halfway to the target and then just hangs there till the spring thaw. Makes for a long benchrest session Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 23:17:49 -0600 Does the sound also freeze in mid-air, resulting in a tremendous noise = when all the sounds thaw in the spring? Not to mention all the flying = round ball.=20 Your comment about finally having to roll down your sleeves reminds me = of Mr. Houston Lee, the father of two of my high school classmates in = the early ' 60's. Mr. Lee had served much of World War Two in Greenland = and was just about immune to Texas cold weather. I remember him in = T-shirts when everybody else was bundled up. He would wear a wind = breaker when the temperature got into the low twenties. I'm not sure he = even owned a coat. God only knows how cold it got in Greenland. He is = still very much alive and looks barely 60. =20 YMOS Lanney -----Original Message----- >On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Kurt Westenbarger wrote: >> West Yellowstone Montana this morning -40 at my place. No wind. >> Watched the sun rise over Mount Holmes with a comforting cup of joe. = 5 >> bison woke up in my front yard this morning. I love where I live - = the >> cold just keeps out the riff raff. Get tough or die. ;-) > >On the get tough or die note, I've always enjoyed a really hard winter >here in Idaho. The number of "For Sale" signs that pop up after a = killer >winter are amazing, as folks limp back to whereever it is they came = from. > >Had just a wee nip in the air today, only got down to zero. Had to >roll down my sleeves while working. Can't hold a candle to them = fella's >in Montana and N. Dakota. > >Too nippy to shoot as the bullet freezes halfway to the target and then >just hangs there till the spring thaw. Makes for a long benchrest >session > >Regards > >Lee Newbill >Viola, Idaho >email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage >http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas W. Roberts" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 22 Dec 1998 00:31:13 -0800 Boy, you guys have it tough. Tonight I put on a t-shirt to walk out to the shop - a bit of fog but otherwise a pleasant 70+ degrees at midnight. I only dream about snow, but just on Christmas eve. The last time I was in W. Yellowstone it snowed in August! Is it true that you can thump your hanging game and the frozen hide just shatters to the ground? Wishing all of you a blessed Christmas and great new year - stay warm! Tom Lee Newbill wrote: > On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Kurt Westenbarger wrote: > > West Yellowstone Montana this morning -40 at my place. No wind. > > Watched the sun rise over Mount Holmes with a comforting cup of joe. 5 > > bison woke up in my front yard this morning. I love where I live - the > > cold just keeps out the riff raff. Get tough or die. ;-) > > On the get tough or die note, I've always enjoyed a really hard winter > here in Idaho. The number of "For Sale" signs that pop up after a killer > winter are amazing, as folks limp back to whereever it is they came from. > > Had just a wee nip in the air today, only got down to zero. Had to > roll down my sleeves while working. Can't hold a candle to them fella's > in Montana and N. Dakota. > > Too nippy to shoot as the bullet freezes halfway to the target and then > just hangs there till the spring thaw. Makes for a long benchrest > session > > Regards > > Lee Newbill > Viola, Idaho > email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 22 Dec 1998 00:36:39 EST Friends, That kind of cold reminds me of one of Poordevils tales about ole Bridger finding some frozen Britishers one of which had a bugle frozen to his lips. Bridger took the bugle since he didn't need it anymore, and when he warmed it up some the frozen notes came to life. According to Poordevil, Bridger'd warm the horn now and then and play some tunes just like the angel Gabriel and that's how he got the name "Ole Gabe." Only -5 here in the valley of the Great Salt Lake tonight. You're hoggin all the cold up there Allen. Send some more down here to help drive off the immigrants. They's gettin thick. Happy Holidays!!!! Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tommy Edge Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 21 Dec 1998 23:41:07 -0800 Thomas W. Roberts wrote: > Boy, you guys have it tough. Tonight I put on a t-shirt to walk out to the > shop - a bit of fog but otherwise a pleasant 70+ degrees at midnight. I only > dream about snow, but just on Christmas eve. The last time I was in W. > Yellowstone it snowed in August! Is it true that you can thump your hanging > game and the frozen hide just shatters to the ground? Wishing all of you a > blessed Christmas and great new year - stay warm! > > Tom > > Lee Newbill wrote: > > > On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Kurt Westenbarger wrote: > > > West Yellowstone Montana this morning -40 at my place. No wind. > > > Watched the sun rise over Mount Holmes with a comforting cup of joe. 5 > > > bison woke up in my front yard this morning. I love where I live - the > > > cold just keeps out the riff raff. Get tough or die. ;-) > > > > On the get tough or die note, I've always enjoyed a really hard winter > > here in Idaho. The number of "For Sale" signs that pop up after a killer > > winter are amazing, as folks limp back to whereever it is they came from. > > > > Had just a wee nip in the air today, only got down to zero. Had to > > roll down my sleeves while working. Can't hold a candle to them fella's > > in Montana and N. Dakota. > > > > Too nippy to shoot as the bullet freezes halfway to the target and then > > just hangs there till the spring thaw. Makes for a long benchrest > > session > > > > Regards > > > > Lee Newbill > > Viola, Idaho > > email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu > > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage > > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 MERRY CHRISTMAS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 22 Dec 1998 02:39:56 -0600 >All you folks out there who live in other climes >might note that it was -21 this early a.m. >up here in tropical Montana. >Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its >too damn cold to live in Montana. >Allen Chronister Been there done that! Its +6 and dropping here,below zero by morning with -30 to -50 wind chills and promised to blow all day! I'll be the guy with the frosbit nose and cheeks out there all day! Gotta Love It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well If a cow laughed would milk come out her nose? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 22 Dec 1998 02:39:56 -0600 >All you folks out there who live in other climes >might note that it was -21 this early a.m. >up here in tropical Montana. >Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its >too damn cold to live in Montana. >Allen Chronister Been there done that! Its +6 and dropping here,below zero by morning with -30 to -50 wind chills and promised to blow all day! I'll be the guy with the frosbit nose and cheeks out there all day! Gotta Love It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well If a cow laughed would milk come out her nose? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Duncan Macready" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 22 Dec 1998 22:18:20 +1300 Allen wrote >All you folks out there who live in other climes >might note that it was -21 this early a.m. >up here in tropical Montana. >Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its >too damn cold to live in Montana. Allen ,you are welcome to come to Auckland New Zealand to warm up,we were at 30 centigrade today about 80% humidity , We are haveing a shoot Sunday. Bring a hat, sunscreen and your swim shorts. We are haveing venison steaks on the barbacue, bring your own plate. Regards Cutfinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Duncan Macready" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 22 Dec 1998 22:18:20 +1300 Allen wrote >All you folks out there who live in other climes >might note that it was -21 this early a.m. >up here in tropical Montana. >Enjoy wherever you are, but pass the word: Its >too damn cold to live in Montana. Allen ,you are welcome to come to Auckland New Zealand to warm up,we were at 30 centigrade today about 80% humidity , We are haveing a shoot Sunday. Bring a hat, sunscreen and your swim shorts. We are haveing venison steaks on the barbacue, bring your own plate. Regards Cutfinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 22 Dec 1998 08:17:08 -0600 Guess I'll chime in with -10 degrees setting up -25 to -35 wind chills, makes it a bit brisk. That's the reason people in Wisconsin drink so much, you put antifreeze in your car right? Hope all your lodges are warm and safe and have a happy holiday. Jim /`- _ Jim Lindberg | Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa { . }/ 724 East Grand Avenue | Flambeau Rivere Voyageurs \ / Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter, |___| http://reality.sgi.com/jal/ | Until we next meete. Go Gentle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 22 Dec 1998 09:05:14 -0700 >On the get tough or die note, I've always enjoyed a really hard winter >here in Idaho. The number of "For Sale" signs that pop up after a killer >winter are amazing, as folks limp back to whereever it is they came from. Then I hope we have a rrrrrrreally cold winter. We want to buy land in the spring and its ridiculously pricey these days here in NW Montana. Matt Richards ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 22 Dec 1998 09:17:50 -0700 Only dropped to -15 or so here in NW Montana (we're in the hot part of the state). Realized my winter boots were dead so I made some mukluks out of some brain tan buffalo Wes Housler had given me. Went for a walk last night with just my bare feet inside the mukluks ----- and they were toasty warm. If they hold up well, I won't be buying any more winter boots..... Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 22 Dec 1998 11:26:23 -0500 unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry Landis" Subject: MtMan-List: Mt-man lst: merry Christmas Date: 22 Dec 1998 19:00:58 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BE2DDD.696FA7A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0004_01BE2DDD.6978CF60" ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01BE2DDD.6978CF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ho the list! I just wanted to say merry Christmas to every body, and thanks for all the hard work you've put in on your research so that I might be able to get my rig right, and start some doins of my own. p.s. I've included a little ditty I wrote today. I hope I don't make anyone mad, but hey , they'll get over it sooner or later. p.s.s. anyone got any good info on 1800-1830 tentage? ymhs. Terry Landis Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to be a buckskiner and soon he'll be eating the whole damn Forrest! ------=_NextPart_001_0004_01BE2DDD.6978CF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled Stationery
ho the list!
 I just wanted to say merry = Christmas to=20 every body, and thanks for all the hard work you've put in on your = research so=20 that I might be able to get my rig right, and start some doins of my=20 own.
 
p.s. I've included a little ditty I wrote today. I hope I don't = make=20 anyone mad, but hey , they'll get over it sooner or = later.
 p.s.s. anyone got any good info on = 1800-1830=20 tentage?
 
ymhs. Terry Landis
 

Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to be a = buckskiner and=20 soon he'll be eating the whole damn Forrest!=20

 
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BE2DDD.696FA7A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kim E Miller Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan_List: unsubscribe Date: 22 Dec 1998 20:17:06 -0600 UNSUBSCRIBE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan_List: unsubscribe Date: 22 Dec 1998 20:48:47 -0800 (PST) On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Kim E Miller wrote: > UNSUBSCRIBE Kim Send your administrative commands to majordomo@xmission.com The command would be unsubscribe hist_text kimmille@micron.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: MtMan-List: holidays Date: 23 Dec 1998 11:19:57 -0500 I'll be away for awhile. Wishing all of you the Merriest of Merry. Your most humble and obedient servant, mdwatts@naxs.com HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com M. D. Watts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: holidays Date: 23 Dec 1998 11:37:28 -0600 Humbug!! Are there no prisons? Are the workhouses closed? Oh well, I guess we shall just continue our travels down historical trails as the new year greets us, and leave the mean-spirited Scrooges of this life to their own ill will. God Bless us each and everyone. From Texas, Where Men are Men--and drink their water from Hoof-prints; Women can be Governor--briefly; and now, Praise the LORD, a place where we are finally getting some honestly cold weather so needed to put the vermin and critters that bite into an even meaner mood come warmup--those that survive. Merry Christmas. Pablo the Ever Humble -----Original Message----- ; Randy ; Pat ; MtMan-List ; Monty ; Matt ; Marcheta ; Larry ; Kathy ; JMongle ; Greg ; David ; Bill ; Al >I'll be away for awhile. Wishing all of you the Merriest of Merry. >Your most humble and obedient servant, >mdwatts@naxs.com >HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com >M. D. Watts > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Neighbors Subject: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:27:34 -0600 I just went thru a divorce And I love to rendezvoo. My ex hated it. Are there any single women who like to! I am not after anything just wanted to know if all women hate to rendezvoo. Thank You Don Neighbors ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:29:20 -0500 HEY!!! I NEVER thought about using the list to find WIMMIN'S...Damn fine idea!! You guys are gonna tell Gwen,..... ain'tcha? never mind.. Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >I just went thru a divorce And I love to rendezvoo. My ex hated it. Are >there any single women who like to! I am not after anything just wanted >to know if all women hate to rendezvoo. Thank You Don Neighbors > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Colleen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:42:09 -0500 > I just went thru a divorce And I love to rendezvoo. My ex hated it. Are > there any single women who like to! I am not after anything just wanted > to know if all women hate to rendezvoo. Thank You Don Neighbors Heaven's No!!!! All women don't hate to rendezvoo!!!!! Best thing I've ever done!!!! Just hang in there....you'll find you a partner!!! And be better for it! Colleen (Many Ducks) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Colleen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:42:47 -0500 > You guys are gonna tell Gwen,..... ain'tcha? never mind.. Dennis......shame on you!!!! :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:57:30 -0500 Are you hittin' on me Colleen?? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- > >> You guys are gonna tell Gwen,..... ain'tcha? never mind.. > >Dennis......shame on you!!!! :-) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Colleen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:59:17 -0500 > Are you hittin' on me Colleen?? > > D Heaven's no.....do think you're an alright guy, though!!!! C ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:02:16 -0500 Thank you... See, told ya! :-) D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- > >> Are you hittin' on me Colleen?? >> >> D > >Heaven's no.....do think you're an alright guy, though!!!! > >C > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:11:03 -0500 I know I do. Been doing it a long time and met some mighty fine single and married men who's ladies do like it. Hey, I have two tipis, a marquee, and one wedge....and one of the best beaders in the US. Don't like to brain tan though. Linda Holley Don Neighbors wrote: > I just went thru a divorce And I love to rendezvoo. My ex hated it. Are > there any single women who like to! I am not after anything just wanted > to know if all women hate to rendezvoo. Thank You Don Neighbors ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Verlin Kinsey" Subject: MtMan-List: Cool weather Date: 23 Dec 1998 12:49:25 PST Matt, If that is all you were wearing then I would assume that your feet were toasty by comparison. Everyone have a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Verlin In slightly warmer (+16) Kansas I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really >amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a Mountain >Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching for >women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk >about??? >DON > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 13:48:55 +0000 Don, I met my wife at a Rendevous. She was a day visitor. My wood stove, and I, captured her heart during a cold January Voo in the Cal. Mtns.. We honeymooned at rendezvous.. She was my canoe partner on a 5 day paddle on the Upper Missouri River, primitive. Good luck in your search, they are out there. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed Date: 23 Dec 1998 13:54:53 +0000 LSP-long spanish pause hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DPOCTALC@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:38:29 EST Randy - That's great but I was not intending to offend only amazed as I didn't know this was also a chat line! To the other responses - I do have a sense of humor. DON ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: amazed Date: 23 Dec 1998 13:41:29 -0800 The quality of discourse on this line is subject to variation, coming from a bunch of reprobates "who do not scruple to break wind in publick", but it is the holidays and we all seem to be getting a little frivolous -- Ho Ho Ho and all. We'll get back to our usual discussions and occasional flame wars after the break, I'm sure. Meanwhile, welcome aboard, stay warm, and don't be afraid to use that delete control on threads outside your area of interest. Best Regards Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 12:57 PM I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a Mountain Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching for women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk about??? DON ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:52:30 -0600 Don Hang around for a few more tens of days and you will see Mountain Man = stuff aplenty. Access Dean's home page and click on the E-mail = discussion archives and you will see several years of such stuff. Many = of us on this list consider many of the others here to be like a second = family and we occasionaly stray from the straight and narrow a little. = I don't think that is too much to bear, especially during bad weather. = I am interested in what effects my friends, especially if it is -56 wind = chill. I think a few such posts tend to humanize the contact we have = with the others on the list. Most of us have never met most of the = others here and these small peeks into their lives make them more = familar to us. I can visualize Eldon Ayres fighting bitter Montana = winds to put up 400 feet of snow fence to keep his lane clear and to = enable him and his family to go to town from time to time. I can just = about see the little icicles hanging from his moustache and the frost on = his eyebrows. I also know that he and many others on this list are = formidable mountain men with an incredible wealth of knowledge that they = will share with anybody in due time. =20 Hang with us, share your knowledge, and absorb the knowledge of others. = Don't be shy....throw out a subject. Any subject. cordially Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am = really >amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a = Mountain >Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching = for >women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk=20 >about??? >DON > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:54:57 -0600 Don You will need that sense of humor and sometimes a thick skin. Pat's = reference to flame wars should give you a clue. =20 Lanney -----Original Message----- >Randy - That's great but I was not intending to offend only amazed as I = didn't >know this was also a chat line! >To the other responses - I do have a sense of humor. >DON > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed Date: 23 Dec 1998 13:56:22 -0800 Don, If you have something interesting to say, why go ahead and say it. We will be glad to talk to you on what ever is troubling you. This is a list of Brothers and Friends. Be a friend and chill out. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Dennis Miles wrote: > Buy a sense of humor, Sir... > > Dennis Miles > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > -----Original Message----- > From: DPOCTALC@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 4:17 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: amazed > > >I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really > >amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a Mountain > >Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching for > >women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk > >about??? > >DON > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed Date: 23 Dec 1998 14:06:16 -0800 Roger Lahti wrote: > Don, > > If you have something interesting to say, why go ahead and say it. We will be > glad to talk to you on what ever is troubling you. This is a list of Brothers > and Friends. Be a friend and chill out. I remain..... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > Don, I should add that the above was sent with all respect and cordiality too. No offense intended. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > Dennis Miles wrote: > > > Buy a sense of humor, Sir... > > > > Dennis Miles > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: DPOCTALC@aol.com > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 4:17 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: amazed > > > > >I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really > > >amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a Mountain > > >Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching for > > >women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk > > >about??? > > >DON > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DPOCTALC@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: amazing Date: 23 Dec 1998 17:49:05 EST Thanks to you all for the responses - I got on this list because of similar interests. Thanks Hardtack ( what is a Long Spanish Pause ? ), Randy, Pat, Lanney and Capt. Lahti. Question: when Lewis and Clark spent five days at canoe camp near Orofino, Idaho, the Indians there showed the Corps how to burn out the canoes as this was a faster process then hacking away at them. I know the burning process involved water to cool the canoe/tree but how was all this done and what kind of trees were the best to use? Does anyone have an answer? Thanks Foot in his mouth Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:07:54 -0800 Don, A couple years ago the "boys" in that area made quit a spring project of turning out several dug-out canoes for a recreation of L and C's trip on down the Clearwater from that location. They had a boat yard set up in Lewiston and when the canoes were done, took them up near Orofino to launch. I and the wife watched them going down stream the Sat. after the Viapon Park Western broke up, on our way home. I know that Vern Illi was involved and Lee Newbill may have some insight too. In Lewiston, I watched them use axes and big augers to take wood out of what they called Yellow Pine though it may have been Ponderosa. They also were using fire to burn some of the wood away after boring some serious holes down into the logs. I don't recall seeing them needing to use any water for the operation and from my experience playing with fire as a fireman I don't see it as being needed. I would be curious where you got that idea from. If Vern and Lee are on line maybe they will wade in? I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' DPOCTALC@aol.com wrote: > Thanks to you all for the responses - I got on this list because of similar > interests. > Thanks Hardtack ( what is a Long Spanish Pause ? ), Randy, Pat, Lanney and > Capt. Lahti. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing Date: 23 Dec 1998 15:54:48 +0000 Don, The corps of discovery made the canoes out of Ponderosa Pine. I believe that cotton wood is prefered, but it was not growing at Canoe Camp. The trees were green. A small fire was built, and monitered, then coals were moved to allow chopping with axe. I'm not sure were the water came in. A Spanish Pause is slang for 'taking a breather'. It has been suggested on this list to take a Spanish Pause before replying to a message, so as to not say something one may regret later. It's like counting to ten... The others provided good responses to your comment. I thought the comment about the buffalo foot wear was right up this lists alley. We are all friends here, There is lots of good info. flying around, as well as friendly chat. Welcome to the list, I look forward to swapping info. with you in the future, as well as friendly chat. Take Care, Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:10:57 -0700 Dennis is a legend in his own mind. Only thinking out loud Bud, keep making toad stickers. YF&B Buck __________________ -----Original Message----- >Buy a sense of humor, Sir... > >Dennis Miles > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >-----Original Message----- >From: DPOCTALC@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 4:17 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: amazed > > >>I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really >>amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a Mountain >>Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching for >>women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk >>about??? >>DON >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:15:03 -0500 Hey Buck.. :-ppppppppppppp!!!! YF&B Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >Dennis is a legend in his own mind. Only thinking out loud Bud, keep making >toad stickers. >YF&B >Buck >__________________ >-----Original Message----- >From: Dennis Miles >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 2:05 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed > > >>Buy a sense of humor, Sir... >> >>Dennis Miles >> >> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments >> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >>-----Original Message----- >>From: DPOCTALC@aol.com >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 4:17 PM >>Subject: MtMan-List: amazed >> >> >>>I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really >>>amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a >Mountain >>>Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching for >>>women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk >>>about??? >>>DON >>> >>> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:15:31 -0700 Linda, Send Don a picture of the marquee, and wedge, bead work would also help. Only kidding, have a Happy holiday. Buck ______________- -----Original Message----- >I know I do. Been doing it a long time and met some mighty fine single and >married men who's ladies do like it. >Hey, I have two tipis, a marquee, and one wedge....and one of the best >beaders in the US. Don't like to brain tan though. > >Linda Holley > >Don Neighbors wrote: > >> I just went thru a divorce And I love to rendezvoo. My ex hated it. Are >> there any single women who like to! I am not after anything just wanted >> to know if all women hate to rendezvoo. Thank You Don Neighbors > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:17:39 EST hey don, maybe a trip to west yellowstone so you can chill? -56 should do it!!! LOL you got here just in time for the holiday hoohaws. this list will give you more historical information that you ever thought possible. and by- the-way, rocky mountain men exchanged holiday greetings and discussed how to keep their feet warm, find women and other BS. glad you're here, and you're first question shows that you're going to be a valuable member of the list. happy holidays to you and yours. Barney P. Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:20:05 -0700 NO No no, not on my toad stickers, I want them to hold an edge. YF&B Buck ___________ -----Original Message----- >Hey Buck.. > >:-ppppppppppppp!!!! > >YF&B > >Dennis > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >-----Original Message----- >From: Barry Conner >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 6:33 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed > > >>Dennis is a legend in his own mind. Only thinking out loud Bud, keep making >>toad stickers. >>YF&B >>Buck >>__________________ >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Dennis Miles >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 2:05 PM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed >> >> >>>Buy a sense of humor, Sir... >>> >>>Dennis Miles >>> >>> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >>> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >>> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments >>> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: DPOCTALC@aol.com >>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>>Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 4:17 PM >>>Subject: MtMan-List: amazed >>> >>> >>>>I have been on this list for about ten days and I have to say I am really >>>>amazed at what is being sent back and forth. I thought this was a >>Mountain >>>>Man information list not a chat line about cold feet and men searching >for >>>>women, etc. Hopefully after the holidays there will be more to talk >>>>about??? >>>>DON >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DPOCTALC@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: canoes Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:22:45 EST Thanks Capt. Lahti' and Hardtack I heard that the Indians would cool down the fires/coals with water when the burning was all done so they could control what they wanted burned! Does that make sense? DON ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DPOCTALC@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:26:01 EST Thanks Barney A few bumps and bruises along the way never hurt...to much. DON ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:28:33 -0700 List members, I have tried cottonwood for a dugout and I think Wes Housler told me was using the same wood, as the wood dried it has started to get some pretty healthy cracks. Wes was going to try and seal his to prevent this ? Crosby Brown at Ft. Charette in IL has an original dugout and keeps it in the water most of the time, sinks it during the winter to prevent cracking, not sure what the wood is. Anyone have any ideas on a better wood that won't have such a problem of cracking, (my wife's fish pond isn't big enough to hold a 17" dugout unless its cut in half !!!!!!) Buck ___________________ -----Original Message----- >Don, The corps of discovery made the canoes out of Ponderosa Pine. I >believe that cotton wood is prefered, but it was not growing at Canoe >Camp. The trees were green. A small fire was built, and monitered, then >coals were moved to allow chopping with axe. I'm not sure were the water >came in. A Spanish Pause is slang for 'taking a breather'. It has been >suggested on this list to take a Spanish Pause before replying to a >message, so as to not say something one may regret later. It's like >counting to ten... The others provided good responses to your comment. > I thought the comment about the buffalo foot wear was right up this >lists alley. We are all friends here, There is lots of good info. flying >around, as well as friendly chat. Welcome to the list, I look forward to >swapping info. with you in the future, as well as friendly chat. Take >Care, Hardtack > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canoes Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:31:16 EST Don, I know this isn't directly applicable, but I recently watched a show about the Amazonian Indians using a centuries only method of burning out canoes, and they DID use water to stop burning when it got too deep into the wood, and also to solidify the burned areas. To start, they would hack a groove into the top of a log, then pour coals into the groove and let them burn out the green wood,clean out the ash and add more coals when those cooled, etc etc, until they approached the depth they wanted. Then they would scrape out the final interior shape with knives and sticks. Hope this is of some help. Barney P. Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing(dugouts) Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:43:13 EST In a message dated 98-12-23 18:32:42 EST, you write: > Anyone have any ideas on a better wood that won't have such a problem of > cracking, (my wife's fish pond isn't big enough to hold a 17" dugout unless > its cut in half !!!!!!) In your case Buck, I would suggest a teak canoe. Then you wouldn't have to sink it to keep it wet. One often finds cottonwoods along the river that have fallen down for one reason or another, and which are washed up on the bank. Since it is the drying and shrinking process that causes the cracks, wouldn't it make sense to use an already seasoned log which has been dried, but has not yet started to rot. On the other hand, Louisiana pirogues are hacked from some type of native wood down there. Perhaps we could learn from that technology. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canoes Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:47:06 -0700 A real typical way to do controlled burns on canoes, bowls or anything was to apply a wet mud pack to areas you didn't want to burn at that moment. Maybe this is where you are getting the water thing from. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DPOCTALC@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canoes Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:54:22 EST Thanks Barney I was aware of the burning and cooling process but now am thinking that the Indians or whoever submersed the entire canoe into the water rather then pouring water onto the burned area, so as Buck mentioned to not only stop the burning but to keep the canoe from cracking. Lewis and Clark did this when they cached their canoes as they headed into the Bitterroots and the Lolo Trail. Thanks for the input DON ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing(dugouts) Date: 23 Dec 1998 17:05:23 -0700 Thanks Dave, I believe Freddie Harris is still in the wood business, gunstocks and wide board flooring, don't have his number but Jack Gardner will (hunting pals). I have gotten native wood paddles from Freddie that he cut in Mississippi or a near by southern state, will let you know if I have any luck. How's everyone doing back there on the Missouri and how's the club doing, good group. Thanks again and Happy Holidays. Buck ________________ -----Original Message----- >In a message dated 98-12-23 18:32:42 EST, you write: >> Anyone have any ideas on a better wood that won't have such a problem of >> cracking, (my wife's fish pond isn't big enough to hold a 17" dugout unless >> its cut in half !!!!!!) > >In your case Buck, I would suggest a teak canoe. Then you wouldn't have to >sink it to keep it wet. > >One often finds cottonwoods along the river that have fallen down for one >reason or another, and which are washed up on the bank. Since it is the >drying and shrinking process that causes the cracks, wouldn't it make sense to >use an already seasoned log which has been dried, but has not yet started to >rot. On the other hand, Louisiana pirogues are hacked from some type of >native wood down there. Perhaps we could learn from that technology. > >Dave Kanger > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DPOCTALC@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: mm archive Date: 23 Dec 1998 19:24:38 EST Thanks to who ever recommend the MM Discussion List Archives. What a wealth of information! DON ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mm archive Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:40:13 -0600 That was me. You're welcome. A person could spend many winter nights = lost in those files. Did you check the journals and trading manifests = yet? Outrageous!! YMOS Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net -----Original Message----- >Thanks to who ever recommend the MM Discussion List Archives. >What a wealth of information! >DON > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DPOCTALC@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mm archive Date: 23 Dec 1998 19:59:16 EST Hey Lanney, I'll check the journals and the trade manifests tonight...while I warm my feet by the fire DON ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: a gift Date: 23 Dec 1998 18:05:50 -0700 --========================_65544748==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear sirs, I would like a 20 ft dugout canoe for christmas Thank you in advance Joe Here is a photo that is seasonally funny --========================_65544748==_ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="Santa_killed.jpg" ; x-mac-type="4A504547"; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-Disposition: 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--========================_65544748==_-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mm archive Date: 23 Dec 1998 19:16:34 -0600 See there, you had a sense of humor all along. That danged ol' Dennis = Miles has sniffed way too much coal smoke. But he is somebody to call = if you need a little smithy work done. Check out the website at = http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 Lanney -----Original Message----- >Hey Lanney, >I'll check the journals and the trade manifests tonight...while I warm = my feet >by the fire >DON > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:22:16 -0500 If I could figure a way of putting a picture on here I would. Merry Xmas "you All" from the deep south. I will be camping in my tipi for that good day in warm weather, compared to all of you. Linda Holley Barry Conner wrote: > Linda, > > Send Don a picture of the marquee, and wedge, bead work would also help. > Only kidding, have a Happy holiday. > > Buck > ______________- > -----Original Message----- > From: Linda Holley > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 1:03 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women > > >I know I do. Been doing it a long time and met some mighty fine single and > >married men who's ladies do like it. > >Hey, I have two tipis, a marquee, and one wedge....and one of the best > >beaders in the US. Don't like to brain tan though. > > > >Linda Holley > > > >Don Neighbors wrote: > > > >> I just went thru a divorce And I love to rendezvoo. My ex hated it. Are > >> there any single women who like to! I am not after anything just wanted > >> to know if all women hate to rendezvoo. Thank You Don Neighbors > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: >>AMAZING<< Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:19:54 -0500 Don, No hard feelin's? I say just what I think, when I think it... Few exceptions D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: MtMan-List: Char cloth Date: 23 Dec 1998 17:45:25 -0800 Happy hoildays to all.......... Following advice from this list, I made some Char cloth several months ago. On my first, second and third weeks it worked great. Caught the spark and off it went. However, since that time it must have absorbed moisture cause I can lay sparks galore on it with no action! My question is.... how in the dickens did the mountain men keep the stuff dry when they were in the winter snow, rain, etc. What kind of container did they have or did they re-dry it from time to time? Gail Carbiener ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DPOCTALC@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: >>AMAZING<< Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:46:35 EST Of course no hard feelings, after all I was the one who put his foot in his mouth, not you guys. Thanks Dennis, Merry Christmas We'll talk again? DON ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: >>AMAZING<< Date: 23 Dec 1998 21:08:16 -0500 Eventually..Don.. Although there are a few out there that would advise agin it... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >Of course no hard feelings, after all I was the one who put his foot in his >mouth, not you guys. >Thanks Dennis, Merry Christmas >We'll talk again? >DON > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canoes Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:33:43 -0800 DPOCTALC@aol.com wrote: > Thanks Capt. Lahti' and Hardtack > I heard that the Indians would cool down the fires/coals with water when the > burning was all done so they could control what they wanted burned! > Does that make sense? > DON Don, Makes sense unless you know that it is real hard to get the big logs to burn on the inside. If you don't want it to burn anymore you just move the fire or scrape it off/down so it isn't consuming the wood. Hard to figure how to explain. I guess they could have been sprinkling water here and there to control the burn but it just didn't seem all that necessary to me. Get your self a big Ponderosa Pine log and start chopping and burning and let us know how it goes. I know the coastal indians were using some fine stone hand adz' to remove wood on their canoes. They would carve the outside shape and then drill holes in to the center as far as they wanted the hull to be thick. They then carved out the insides until they hit the holes and then quit carving. Plugged the holes up with dowels or cedar and finished the plugs off flush and then heat the insides with water and hot rocks until they could spread the sides a bit. the sides were held out with thwarts and walla its almost a boat! Sure would like a coastal indian boat. Can't afford the price of a cedar tree. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:38:15 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 23 Dec 1998, Roger Lahti wrote: > A couple years ago the "boys" in that area made quit a spring project of turning > out several dug-out canoes for a recreation of L and C's trip on down the > Clearwater from that location. > If Vern > and Lee are on line maybe they will wade in? I remain.... hallo broke my silly arm today so forgive the lack of punctuation we used ponderosa pines for our dugouts. on the burn vs adze wood removal, burning is nice if you had few tools and much time. adzes and six men (read as relays) can turn out a decent dugout in about two days. we'd probably be faster if we did it more often. char method was burn, extingish, scrape... burn, etc, etc velly slow. these dugouts wiegh half a ton or better, so cooling is appplird where they are being built... no volunteers to haul them to the water just fer a quick dunk. of the three dugouts we have made, one was so checked (cracked) that it was donated for a permanent (dry) display. the other two get used a lot when summer is here. they are very heavy and don't do rapids well. is a lot of work to get the finished product. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:38:36 -0800 Barry Conner wrote: > Anyone have any ideas on a better wood that won't have such a problem of > cracking, (my wife's fish pond isn't big enough to hold a 17" dugout unless > its cut in half !!!!!!) > > Buck Buck, I know that cedar, pine and cyprus all have been used. I think cedar is the least likely to split if not submerged but you can also fill them with water which will help. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > ___________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 4:14 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing > > >Don, The corps of discovery made the canoes out of Ponderosa Pine. I > >believe that cotton wood is prefered, but it was not growing at Canoe > >Camp. The trees were green. A small fire was built, and monitered, then > >coals were moved to allow chopping with axe. I'm not sure were the water > >came in. A Spanish Pause is slang for 'taking a breather'. It has been > >suggested on this list to take a Spanish Pause before replying to a > >message, so as to not say something one may regret later. It's like > >counting to ten... The others provided good responses to your comment. > > I thought the comment about the buffalo foot wear was right up this > >lists alley. We are all friends here, There is lots of good info. flying > >around, as well as friendly chat. Welcome to the list, I look forward to > >swapping info. with you in the future, as well as friendly chat. Take > >Care, Hardtack > > > >___________________________________________________________________ > >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: dugouts Date: 23 Dec 1998 20:45:56 -0800 (PST) fergot to mention... out up some pics on my webpage of our last effort... they are under "recreating history", url below Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: MtMan-List: re: ett-a-what? Date: 23 Dec 1998 16:45:00 -0800 I would just like to mention, for the benefit of those of us getting the digest version and/or with a slow internet connection, that the list works best with "Plain Text" instead of HTML, and no attachments. Instead of sending an attachment to the list, where it is usually translated into a lot of useless garbage, which is then multiplied by the number of recipients on the list, it is generally considered more useful to move a copy of the file to a publicly accessible site (like an FTP server) and then put a copy of the URL (or path) to the file into your e-mail. On the subject of HTML vs. Plain Text messages: some e-mail clients default to HTML or "Multi-part MIME" for message formatting and you need to go into your Preferences or Options dialog and change your settings to generate Plain Text. Sometimes you can set the formatting specifically for a recipient, like "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" but then you need to be sure that you choose the recipient before you start writing your message. Yeah, I know ... I'm not the list Mom and all that ... but I enjoy our little community here and I'd rather wade through greetings, love letters and weather reports than all of that HTML and file attachment crap. If anyone needs help figuring this stuff out feel free to contact me off-list. -- JW "LRay" Stephens, Squadron Commander; Lobo Solo Squadron EPP Technician, Primary Color Systems, Inc., Irvine, CA ... ICQ# 20564775 "mean people suck" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Patterson Subject: MtMan-List: Tomahawk Target Date: 22 Dec 1998 18:29:21 -0800 Pine works fine in California. At scout camp we use Redwood, make sure the wood is not starting to rot, the hawks quicken the deterioration of the wood. 12 "-18" thick is good Diameter the answer is bigger is better. Bill Patterson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazed Date: 24 Dec 1998 02:44:12 -0600 >The quality of discourse on this line is subject to variation, >coming from a bunch of reprobates "who do not scruple to break wind >in publick", but it is the holidays and we all seem to be getting a Pat, you got the jist of it but you quoted Mssr.la Priest slightly wrong,so I'll ask you to see below and feel free to copy it! I'm sure any copyright is long since expired: its only 300 years old. Fr. Louis was a Recollett Missionary in the old northwest, He published quite a memoir of his travels in the Americas,but I have read critique that the truth must have been spectacular BEFORE he (true MM before there were any!)stretched the truth nearly beyond belief. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well "They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698 Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing(dugouts) Date: 24 Dec 1998 02:44:16 -0600 >> Anyone have any ideas on a better wood that won't have such a >>problem of cracking, (my wife's fish pond isn't big enough to >>hold a 17" dugout unless its cut in half !!!!!!) >In your case Buck, I would suggest a teak canoe. Then you wouldn't >have to sink it to keep it wet. >One often finds cottonwoods along the river that have fallen down >for one reason or another, and which are washed up on the bank. >Since it is the drying and shrinking process that causes the cracks, >wouldn't it make sense to use an already seasoned log which has >been dried, but has not yet started to rot. On the other hand, >Louisiana pirogues are hacked from some type of native wood down >there. Perhaps we could learn from that technology. >Dave Kanger Fellas you are answering your own questions about preserving dugouts! Keep em wet and the wood does not dryout or crack. I think pirogues in La. are made from cypress-Ya ain't gonna find that up in the shinin mountains. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well "They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698 Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk Target Date: 24 Dec 1998 08:47:26 -0600 I did not see the original post, but it seems that someone asked for a = reccomendation for a good wood for hawk blocks. Cottonwood is = excellent, particularly if you have time to let it dry out a little. = Once it has dried out cottonwood checks, sometimes pretty badly, but it = is soft enough to take a blade well and is light enough to handle = easily, especially in the larger diameters that are easily obtainable. = However, when fresh cut the average sized hawk block weighs about the = same as a 1962 Ford 390cid V8 engine. Cut 'em now, use 'em later. =20 Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >Pine works fine in California. >At scout camp we use Redwood, make sure the wood is not starting to = rot, >the hawks quicken the deterioration of the wood. >12 "-18" thick is good >Diameter the answer is bigger is better. > >Bill Patterson > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 24 Dec 1998 10:11:36 EST In a message dated 98-12-23 14:26:32 EST, you write: << Are there any single women who like to! >> Off the top of my head I could name 20 or more ranging in age from 19 to 60+. Most got into it due to ex-husbands, lovers or their parents did it and they loved it to much to sit around waiting for some man to come sweep them off their feet and take them off to camp. So don't loss hope you might get luck like me, my wife and kids want to go camp as much if not more than I do. Happy holidays and New Year Your humble servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: amazed Date: 24 Dec 1998 09:51:32 -0800 Thanks, Jeff, and here's a rippin' FRAAAPPP for you! Merry Christmas Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, December 24, 1998 12:44 AM >The quality of discourse on this line is subject to variation, >coming from a bunch of reprobates "who do not scruple to break wind >in publick", but it is the holidays and we all seem to be getting a Pat, you got the jist of it but you quoted Mssr.la Priest slightly wrong,so I'll ask you to see below and feel free to copy it! I'm sure any copyright is long since expired: its only 300 years old. Fr. Louis was a Recollett Missionary in the old northwest, He published quite a memoir of his travels in the Americas,but I have read critique that the truth must have been spectacular BEFORE he (true MM before there were any!)stretched the truth nearly beyond belief. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well "They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698 Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: French Trading Houses in Texas Date: 24 Dec 1998 12:44:14 -0600 Ok folks I have a question. In 1992 Muzzleloader Mag. had a article on the French Trade in Texas. It states that there were five French trading houses near a Wichiatas village that was located on the Sabine River north of present day Mineola TX. These trading houses were discovered by a Spanish priest named Father Calahorra in 1760. Since this location is only about 30 mi. from my house I would be really interested to know more about it. I have been unable to find the exact location of this village. It could be literally right in my back door. Any info would be appreciated. Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James C. Zeigler" Subject: MtMan-List: Winter issue T&LR Date: 24 Dec 1998 12:52:04 -0500 Merry Christmas Everyone: Was wondering if anyone has received their winter issue (99 ?) of The Tomahawk & Long Rife. I think I may have been missed again....Thanks Jim Zeigler ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tomahawk Target Date: 24 Dec 1998 13:15:38 EST some of us lucky (unfrozen) boys in the western coastal climes have been using Palm for years, and it works great; won't dull your blade but your hawk will hold after a throw. Its VERY heavy when first cut, about a hundred pounds a foot, but dries out rapidly. if you want to create a challange for yourself, and get ready for any possibility at rendezvous, try some of these variations: 1. Trail Walk (also known as Hawk Golf) 2. Between narrow branches or trees at target 3. Lying down throw at pesky injun sneaking up while sleeping 4. Swinging target 5. Two hawks, same hand or Two Hawks, two hands 6. Left handed throws, around objects 7. Underhand Throw 8. Opposite from normal handed throw 9. Extreme elevations up and down 10. Vertical string hanging on target must be cut to score Good luck and Merry Christmas to all. Barney P. Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing(dugouts) Date: 24 Dec 1998 14:03:07 EST most of the pirogue boats are made of cypress as well as other dougouts in the south---there is records of dougouts and pirogue boats lasting well over 50 years---cypress also makes fine slat canoes--know of some log cabins made of cypress that are well over 150 years and still in good condition. it was a commn practice to sink a dougout or pirogue in order to maintain it's water tight structure and to eleminate cracks in the wood. "HAWK" Michael pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com On Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:43:13 EST ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 98-12-23 18:32:42 EST, you write: >> Anyone have any ideas on a better wood that won't have such a >problem of >> cracking, (my wife's fish pond isn't big enough to hold a 17" >dugout unless >> its cut in half !!!!!!) > >In your case Buck, I would suggest a teak canoe. Then you wouldn't >have to >sink it to keep it wet. > >One often finds cottonwoods along the river that have fallen down for >one >reason or another, and which are washed up on the bank. Since it is >the >drying and shrinking process that causes the cracks, wouldn't it make >sense to >use an already seasoned log which has been dried, but has not yet >started to >rot. On the other hand, Louisiana pirogues are hacked from some type >of >native wood down there. Perhaps we could learn from that technology. > >Dave Kanger > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: amazing(dugouts) Date: 24 Dec 1998 14:51:35 EST I'm interested in log cabins myself and have been trying to find good sources for houses or cabins built with cypress logs like they do in Louisiana in Cajun ways. I even saw a movie in which a prisoner decided to help a pregnant woman thru the Mississippi flood....they lived in a house built of cypress logs and it floated on the water...does anyone know what I'm talking about? That kind of house is what I'm trying to get info on.....email me on the list or privately. Thanks! Ted TedHart@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: French Trading Houses in Texas Date: 24 Dec 1998 14:09:02 -0600 Larry: I was unware that there were five French trading posts in Texas. I will review Joutel's account (first published in 1713) of La Salle's last voyage and see if that or any of my later material speaks to the issue. Spanish Fort, Texas (on the Red River somewhat North and East of Wichita Falls) was in fact a very large French post, which was successfully operated for many years. While in my teens, I could still trace out several of the mud walls of the compound. Artifacts still work their way to the surface, but now the site is owned by a gentleman from California, and he has cut off all oportunity to walk the site or even view it closely. I last visited it in the Spring of 1997. Working from maps prepared by the University of Texas Archeological Department, I again easily found the primary site (now viewed across a fence) as well as several nearby Indian sites which were in existance at the time of the French trading post. The Indian population at the post and in the nearby villages numbered in the thousands on many occasions. Interestingly, one camp of Comanches was within a mile of the post. The thought of them living in peace with other tribes and whites belies their later exploits. Near the site of the French post there is the headwaters of what is now a very small spring fed creek. At the time of the French occupation, the creek was considerably larger, and much canoe traffic from the Red is reported. It runs to the NW from the town of Spanish Fort to the Red. To call Spanish Fort a town is a gross overstatement, as it is now just a few houses. When my grandfather first took in there in the 50's you could still see the ruins of a store which had served as a local museum of sorts dedicated to the French post and the Spanish attempts to destroy it. Unfortunately all of the artifacts were destroyed when the building burned and buried the basement many years ago. My grandfather had a photograph from the store of a Spanish helmet, breast plate and several daggers and a sword. These had all been found within 15 miles of the site, along the Red. From the reconstruction, it appears that several Spanish soldiers survived the initial failed attack and "forted up" only to be cut down by the pursuing Indian allies of the French. The Spanish were very concerned about this post, and at least two major expeditions from Bexar were sent to destroy it. On both occasions, the few French present and their Indian allies (including the Comanches from that area) routed them before they could get near the post. I will dig out my material on the site. Next time I am in that area, perhaps we could visit Spanish Fort and look over the site of the post and the various Indian village sites. I will also find out what I can about other French sites and get back to you. Best Regards, Paul -----Original Message----- >Ok folks I have a question. In 1992 Muzzleloader Mag. had a article on the >French Trade in Texas. It states that there were five French trading houses >near a Wichiatas village that was located on the Sabine River north of >present day Mineola TX. These trading houses were discovered by a Spanish >priest named Father Calahorra in 1760. Since this location is only about 30 >mi. from my house I would be really interested to know more about it. I >have been unable to find the exact location of this village. It could be >literally right in my back door. Any info would be appreciated. >Pendleton > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Gilbert" Subject: MtMan-List: Taking the plunge Date: 24 Dec 1998 15:00:50 -0600 (CST) Hello the list, I wanted to say Merry Christmas to you all and thank you. After all the great advice and helpful pointers on getting started, we have ordered our lodge. I've been making clothing and mocs and we've been going to gatherings and trade fairs for the basics. We are starting small, so we can add as we see the need. My husband, who was not sure there was a place for him in this adventure, has started to get very excited about all the possibilities. He is researching geological surveying in Early America, as he minored in geology in college. We are on our way! Happy Holidays to you all! Susan Gilbert (Old Hands) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Log Cabins Date: 24 Dec 1998 16:27:56 EST Ted (and the rest of the list) here are some great links i've found. There are restorers, builders, suppliers of drawings, plans and materials, etc etc. If you need direct addresses, please don't hesitate to let me know. Happy Holidays to all. Enjoy. Barney P. Fife Country Log Cabins, A Piece of American History Cascade Country Cabins Timber and Stone Sisson Log Homes, America's Factory Direct Log Home Source Barna Log Homes, Inc. Michigan Log Homes And Cabins By Courtney Custom Forest Products New Pioneer Log Homes, Inc. - Welcome Heartland's Home Page Log Homes, pictures, related products and services in The Log Home Zone ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks Date: 24 Dec 1998 15:35:56 -0600 Marion D. Watts wrote: > > My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list. I'm a > new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette. Your understanding is > appreciated. > Your most humble and obedient servant, > mdwatts@naxs.com > HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com > M. D. Watts > > ---------- > > From: TetonTod@aol.com > > To: hist_text@xmission.com > > Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks > > Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:43 AM > > > > Fellow group members, > > > > May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back > to > > some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all > about. > > Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle > is > > best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to > their > > Wives and Daughters! > > > > For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy > and > > respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have > > dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally > takes > > over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back > > then. > > > > As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of > > historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the > > comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take > the > > time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making > > personal comments posted to the whole group. > > > > Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage, > traps > > etc...that's what we're about. > > > > Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!! > > > > Todd Glover They got a shot that will cure the etiquette!! Snakeshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Christmas Wishes Date: 24 Dec 1998 20:01:57 EST Friends, It's been another great year on the list. Here's lookin forward to another! Merry Christmas to all and a Healthy and Happy New Year! Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: MtMan-List: Holiday Greetings! Date: 24 Dec 1998 18:56:03 -0800 --------------B7190437C36B9BAE261ED503 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From my lodge to yours... Merry Christmas! As we celebrate the birth of our savior and give our gifts to family and friends may we pause to remember the greatest gift of all. God gave His only Son so that we could once again have a relationship with Him! I wish each and every one who reads this list that very same "greatest gift of all"...I wish you Jesus. Grace and peace, Medicine Bear --------------B7190437C36B9BAE261ED503 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From my lodge to yours...
Merry Christmas!
As we celebrate the birth of our savior and give our gifts to family and friends may we pause to remember the greatest gift of all.
God gave His only Son so that we could once again have a relationship with Him!

I wish each and every one who reads this list that very same "greatest gift of all"...I wish you Jesus.

Grace and peace, Medicine Bear --------------B7190437C36B9BAE261ED503-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry Venden Subject: MtMan-List: Holiday Greetings Date: 24 Dec 1998 21:47:27 -0600 --------------D753DEF0E1E058A0C2426C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too would like to wish every one on this History List the best of holiday spirits and a healthy and prosperous new Year. I truly enjoy all the information that i receive from you all. I'm in the hopes of meeting many of you as our paths cross on this earth journey. Keep up the great work. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Terry & Debbie Venden (Medicine Bear & Doe Eyes) Two Wolves Trading Co. Northeast Texas. --------------D753DEF0E1E058A0C2426C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too would like to wish every one on this History List the best of holiday spirits and a healthy and prosperous new Year.  I truly enjoy all the information that i receive from you all.  I'm in the hopes of meeting many of you as our paths cross on this earth journey.  Keep up the great work.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Terry & Debbie Venden (Medicine Bear & Doe Eyes)
Two Wolves Trading Co.
Northeast Texas.

--------------D753DEF0E1E058A0C2426C80-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Holiday Greetings! Date: 24 Dec 1998 23:13:10 -0500 Frank wrote: > > From my lodge to yours... > Merry Christmas! > As we celebrate the birth of our savior and give our gifts to family > and friends may we pause to remember the greatest gift of all. > God gave His only Son so that we could once again have a > relationship with Him! > > I wish each and every one who reads this list that very same > "greatest gift of all"...I wish you Jesus. > > Grace and peace, Medicine Bear The same to you and everyone Frank! Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Amos Eastridge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 24 Dec 1998 18:43:30 -0600 Well, at the Alafia Ronny in Central Florida in Jan 1998, on Jan 19, it was 19 degrees!!! Woke up to an dish pan full of ice!!! Scared hell outta tha tourists!!! hehe... -----Original Message----- Joe I came through Dubois about July 6 this year and noticed a lot of snow in the shadows. It would take this Texas boy a while to get used to that kind of cold. I have primitive camped here at 6 above and that was cool enough. Keep warm. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >Here is sunny Dubois Wyoming it was -35 sunday morning, went duck hunting >with my boy, froze our fingers >Damn it is cold >Joe > >Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery >Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 >Write for custom tanning prices >We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and >hair on robes >Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets >check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gbosen@juno.com (Greg N Bosen Bosen) Subject: MtMan-List: tinsmithing? Date: 25 Dec 1998 03:02:42 EST i'm interested in learning to tinsmith. Where would be a good place to start. Any books at the library i should try? what are the basic tools needed? my father is a Goldsmith so i have access to his tool when needed. they seem to be different though. Greg Bosen ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season Date: 25 Dec 1998 11:35:58 -0500 Well, I hope you will be there again. I know I will. And l will be warm and comfortable in what ever I bring. Linda Holley Amos Eastridge wrote: > Well, at the Alafia Ronny in Central Florida in Jan 1998, on Jan 19, it was > 19 degrees!!! Woke up to an dish pan full of ice!!! Scared hell outta tha > tourists!!! hehe... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lanney Ratcliff > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 5:47 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season > > Joe > I came through Dubois about July 6 this year and noticed a lot of snow in > the shadows. It would take this Texas boy a while to get used to that kind > of cold. I have primitive camped here at 6 above and that was cool enough. > Keep warm. > Lanney Ratcliff > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Brandl > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 5:03 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: the season > > >Here is sunny Dubois Wyoming it was -35 sunday morning, went duck hunting > >with my boy, froze our fingers > >Damn it is cold > >Joe > > > >Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery > >Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 > >Write for custom tanning prices > >We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and > >hair on robes > >Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets > >check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: MtMan-List: A reminder of weather conditions Date: 25 Dec 1998 09:40:59 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE2FEA.ADBDC360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good Morning, Just opened a gift from the wife "Lewis & Clark", (The Journey of the = Corps of Discovery}; and found a statement that reminded me of the = resent e-mail about the weather conditions our brothers have been = having. **************** On Christmas Eve, the temperature climbed above zero - and almost above = freezing. Fort Mandan was deemed officially complete, and the captains = handed out dried apples, pepper, and extra flour for the next day's meal = and celebration.=20 Just before Christmas dawn, the captains were awakened by the men, all = if them, Clark noted, "merrily disposed." December 25th, 1804. We ushed [in] the morning with a discharge of the Swivvel [gun], and one = round of Small arms of all the party.=20 Then another from the Swivvel. Then Capt. Clark presented a glass of = brandy to each man of the party. We hoisted the american flag, and each = man had another Glass of brandy. The men prepared one of the rooms and commenced dancing. At 10 o'c = [lock] we had another Glass of brandy, at one a gun was fired as a = Signal for diner. Half past two another gun was fired to assemble at the = dance, and So we kept it up in a jov[ia]l manner untill eight o'c[lock] = at night, all without the company of the female Seck [sex]. Joseph Whitehouse The mandans were asked not to visit the fort on Christmas because, the = captains explained, it was a "great medicine" day for the expedition. = But on New Year's, the men celebrated with their Indian hosts. **************** In the next life may we experience such an adventure, and may God see us = fit enough to handle the chore. Happy Holidays YF&B Buck Conner ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE2FEA.ADBDC360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good Morning,
 
Just opened a gift from the wife "Lewis &=20 Clark", (The Journey of the Corps of Discovery}; and found a = statement that=20 reminded me of the resent e-mail about the weather conditions our = brothers have=20 been having.
****************
On = Christmas Eve,=20 the temperature climbed above zero - and almost above freezing. Fort = Mandan was=20 deemed officially complete, and the captains handed out dried apples, = pepper,=20 and extra flour for the next day's meal and celebration.
Just before Christmas dawn, the captains were = awakened by=20 the men, all if them, Clark noted, "merrily = disposed."
 
December 25th,=20 1804.
We ushed=20 [in] the morning with a discharge of the Swivvel [gun], = and=20 one round of Small arms of all the party.
Then another from the Swivvel. Then Capt. Clark = presented a=20 glass of brandy to each man of the party. We hoisted the american flag, = and each=20 man had another Glass of brandy.
The men=20 prepared one of the rooms and commenced dancing. At 10 o'c = [lock] we=20 had another Glass of brandy, at one a gun was fired as a Signal for = diner. Half=20 past two another gun was fired to assemble at the dance, and So we kept = it up in=20 a jov[ia]l manner untill eight o'c[lock] at night, all = without=20 the company of the female Seck [sex].
Joseph=20 Whitehouse
The mandans were = asked not to=20 visit the fort on Christmas because, the captains explained, it was a=20 "great medicine" day for the expedition. But on New Year's, = the men=20 celebrated with their Indian hosts.
 
****************
In = the next life may=20 we experience such an adventure, and may God see us fit enough to handle = the=20 chore.
 
Happy Holidays
 
YF&B
Buck = Conner
 
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE2FEA.ADBDC360-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A reminder of weather conditions Date: 25 Dec 1998 11:57:07 EST Buck writes: > On Christmas Eve, the temperature climbed above zero - and almost above > freezing. Interesting quote. How did they know what the temperature was? When was the thermometer invented, and was it an item normally carried by expeditionary forces? Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A reminder of weather conditions Date: 25 Dec 1998 11:48:01 -0600 Dave Galileo (1564-1642) is credited with inventing the thermometer, but = Gabriel Daniel Fahrenheit (1686-1736) invented the mercury thermometer = in 1714 and used it to develope the Fahrenheit scale that is still in = use today (and by Lewis & Clark). Hope this helps. L&C carried several = scientific instruments on the Voyage of Discovery, and I think I read = that more than one thermometer was carried. Others better versed in L&C = can provide more data. Lanney Ratcliff =20 -----Original Message----- >Buck writes: >> On Christmas Eve, the temperature climbed above zero - and almost = above=20 >> freezing. > >Interesting quote. How did they know what the temperature was? When = was the >thermometer invented, and was it an item normally carried by = expeditionary >forces? >Dave Kanger > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A reminder of weather conditions Date: 25 Dec 1998 11:46:01 +0000 Dave, The Corps carried thermometers, and guarded them carefully as they are fragile. They did well, but eventually all the thermometers were broken. I don't know when the instrument was invented? This expedition was, in part, a scientific exploration. Lewis was schooled (crammed) in the use of many different sciences, in order to make accurate observations along the route. There were many scientific tools along. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DPOCTALC@aol.com (DON) Subject: MtMan-List: Leapin lizards - from DON Date: 25 Dec 1998 12:02:31 -00800 (PST) Guess what!! You have just received an animated greeting card from DON You can pick up your personal greeting by connecting to the following WWW Address http://www2.bluemountain.com/cards/box7847u/ida8jeaxctmarh.htm (Your greeting card will be available for the next 60 days) This service is FREE! :) HAVE a good day and have fun! ____________________________________________________________ Accessing your card indicates your agreement with our Website Rules posted at the bottom of the following Web location: (You're welcome to send a free card to someone at this location) http://www2.bluemountain.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bob Hannon" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 12:55:32 PST Date: 25 Dec 1998 13:56:05 -0700 Dave, Thomas Jefferson wanted all the data L & C could gather. They brought along several thermometers, I'm not sure of the exact number. In fact while in St. Louis the winter of 1803-1804 a local physician scraped the mercury off the back of his wive's mirror, in order to make some more thermometers,to ensure an adequate supply. It was not to be though, much to both Lewis & Clarks dismay, the last one was broken going over that very steep and rough terrain of the Bitterroots Mountains at Lost Trail Pass. Hope this casts a little more light. Respecfully, Bob Hannon ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinsmithing? Date: 25 Dec 1998 14:59:20 -0800 Greg N Bosen Bosen wrote: > i'm interested in learning to tinsmith. Where would be a good place to > start. Any books at the library i should try? what are the basic tools > needed? my father is a Goldsmith so i have access to his tool when > needed. they seem to be different though. > > Greg Bosen Greg, Try Lindsay Publications Inc., PO Box 538, Bradley IL. 60915-0538, 815/935-5353. They specialize in books on somewhat out of date technology and have a starter book that deals with what you want to know. I do a bit of copper bending and it doesn't take many tools. They are simple and easy to build. I'm glad to see that you have such a close relationship with your father but his "tool" will not do you any good in bending tin unless he came from Krypton. I think you meant "tools" plural. I use a simple homemade metal "Brake" , a couple of small ball peen hammers, some molds made from pine boards, pliers, and a small piece of 1/4" bar stock that is used to turn and roll flanges. Hope this is of help. If you have more specific questions let me know. I remain....... YMOS Capt. lahti' > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinsmithing? Date: 26 Dec 1998 04:21:59 EST Greg, The tools and techniques for smithing gold/silver/platinum are far different than those for working with tin. For instance, tinsmiths use a relatively low-temperature soldering iron (either forge heated or electric) and precious metalsmiths use an extremely high-temperature torch. The hand tools, solders, pickles and polishing compounds are also different. You might want or need patterns, snips, hammer & punch, simple shape-forms, a bender/brake, and rods for rolling edges. For books and such, try www.amazon.com, as they have an pretty incredible selection, and let you see book reviews, publisher's notes, and have a return policy second to none. Also, search the 'web' under tinsmithing and you will find both historical and modern projects for your consideration. Hope this helps, YHS, Barney P. Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes Date: 26 Dec 1998 18:26:30 -0800 (PST) Don, Although I don't know the answer (I'm more concerned with horses), I would recommend getting a copy of L & Cs Journals. The version that would probably have this info would be the one edited by Elliot Coues. It is in 3 volumes from Dover press and about $22 - $25 in paperback (ISBN 0-486-21268-8.) I haven't read it in a long time, but remember it somewhere. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 05:49 PM 12/23/98 EST, you wrote: >Thanks to you all for the responses - I got on this list because of similar >interests. >Thanks Hardtack ( what is a Long Spanish Pause ? ), Randy, Pat, Lanney and >Capt. Lahti. >Question: when Lewis and Clark spent five days at canoe camp near Orofino, >Idaho, the Indians there showed the Corps how to burn out the canoes as this >was a faster process then hacking away at them. I know the burning process >involved water to cool the canoe/tree but how was >all this done and what kind of trees were the best to use? >Does anyone have an answer? >Thanks >Foot in his mouth Don > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ikon@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes Date: 26 Dec 1998 21:44:36 -0500 (EST) I have been back here reading all these posts and yesterday I mentioned to my wife "sweetie, ya know what would be neat, making a dug out canoe" to my suprise she agreed. Now all I need to do is find a tree, she expects one by the spring. Me and my big mouth. Happy Holidays Frank V. Rago At 06:26 PM 12/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >Don, > >Although I don't know the answer (I'm more concerned with horses), I would >recommend getting a copy of L & Cs Journals. The version that would >probably have this info would be the one edited by Elliot Coues. It is in 3 >volumes from Dover press and about $22 - $25 in paperback (ISBN >0-486-21268-8.) I haven't read it in a long time, but remember it somewhere. > >Best Regards, > >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >___________________________________________________________________________ _____ > >At 05:49 PM 12/23/98 EST, you wrote: >>Thanks to you all for the responses - I got on this list because of similar >>interests. >>Thanks Hardtack ( what is a Long Spanish Pause ? ), Randy, Pat, Lanney and >>Capt. Lahti. >>Question: when Lewis and Clark spent five days at canoe camp near Orofino, >>Idaho, the Indians there showed the Corps how to burn out the canoes as this >>was a faster process then hacking away at them. I know the burning process >>involved water to cool the canoe/tree but how was >>all this done and what kind of trees were the best to use? >>Does anyone have an answer? >>Thanks >>Foot in his mouth Don >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinsmithing? Date: 26 Dec 1998 19:00:16 -0800 go to the web an typ tinsmithing and injoy. iron tongue Roger Lahti wrote: > Greg N Bosen Bosen wrote: > > > i'm interested in learning to tinsmith. Where would be a good place to > > start. Any books at the library i should try? what are the basic tools > > needed? my father is a Goldsmith so i have access to his tool when > > needed. they seem to be different though. > > > > Greg Bosen > > Greg, > > Try Lindsay Publications Inc., PO Box 538, Bradley IL. 60915-0538, > 815/935-5353. > > They specialize in books on somewhat out of date technology and have a > starter book that deals with what you want to know. I do a bit of copper > bending and it doesn't take many tools. They are simple and easy to build. > I'm glad to see that you have such a close relationship with your father but > his "tool" will not do you any good in bending tin unless he came from > Krypton. I think you meant "tools" plural. I use a simple homemade metal > "Brake" , a couple of small ball peen hammers, some molds made from pine > boards, pliers, and a small piece of 1/4" bar stock that is used to turn and > roll flanges. > > Hope this is of help. If you have more specific questions let me know. I > remain....... > > YMOS > Capt. lahti' > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 26 Dec 1998 19:54:39 -0800 Unsubscribe J2hearts@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DPOCTALC@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes Date: 27 Dec 1998 17:52:08 EST Thanks Jerry, I appreciate your taking the time to write me, I have those journals and will check into them. Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes Date: 27 Dec 1998 16:58:29 -0600 I never had the urge to build a dugout canoe but I know a few people who = did and they all have the same comment....those suckers weigh many, many = times more than they expected them to. Even relatively small dugouts = are barely moveable out of the water and ride very low in the water. = Maybe they didn't make them thinwalled enough and left them heavier than = they should be. Anybody have any experience with attempting to make a = dugout canoe light enough to be moved with reasonable ease and to allow = adequate freeboard when underway?=20 My Old Town is dark green plastic and has an 800 lb rated carrying = capacity.....yeah I know, barely enough for me---haw, haw, haw...and = draws only a few inches. That makes me appreciate even more the men who = paddled UP the Missouri in dugouts. Comments? WAG's? SWAG's? Lanney Ratcliff ps: W(ild) A(ss) G(uesses) or S(cientific) etc=20 -----Original Message----- >I have been back here reading all these posts and yesterday I mentioned = to >my wife "sweetie, ya know what would be neat, making a dug out canoe" = to my >suprise she agreed. Now all I need to do is find a tree, she expects = one by >the spring. Me and my big mouth. > >Happy Holidays > > >Frank V. Rago > > > >At 06:26 PM 12/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >>Don, >> >>Although I don't know the answer (I'm more concerned with horses), I = would >>recommend getting a copy of L & Cs Journals. The version that would >>probably have this info would be the one edited by Elliot Coues. It = is in 3 >>volumes from Dover press and about $22 - $25 in paperback (ISBN >>0-486-21268-8.) I haven't read it in a long time, but remember it = somewhere. >> >>Best Regards,=20 >> >>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >>_______________________________________________________________________= ____ >_____ >> >>At 05:49 PM 12/23/98 EST, you wrote: >>>Thanks to you all for the responses - I got on this list because of = similar >>>interests. >>>Thanks Hardtack ( what is a Long Spanish Pause ? ), Randy, Pat, = Lanney and >>>Capt. Lahti. >>>Question: when Lewis and Clark spent five days at canoe camp near = Orofino, >>>Idaho, the Indians there showed the Corps how to burn out the canoes = as this >>>was a faster process then hacking away at them. I know the burning = process >>>involved water to cool the canoe/tree but how was=20 >>>all this done and what kind of trees were the best to use? >>>Does anyone have an answer? >>>Thanks >>>Foot in his mouth Don >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DPOCTALC@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: making canoes Date: 27 Dec 1998 17:59:35 EST The other day several of you talked about L & C having thermometers, etc. All were correct but a comment was made that said L & C went over Lost Trail Pass. They missed LTP as they were about a mile and a half NE of the pass. Stay warm and dry, DON ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes Date: 27 Dec 1998 18:12:15 EST Saw a documentary on discovery channel not long ago... amazon basin indians making burned out canoes; they all rode VERY low in the water, and they used this to their advantage. when a surface obstacle in the river was encountered (branches, tree tops, logs, etc) they would portage all their personal goods and sink the canoe to go UNDER the obstacle, as the canoes were far to heavy to carry any distance. YHS BP Fife HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL. AND TO DEAN--- THANKS AGAIN FOR SUCH AN INCREDIBLE JOB. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Taking the plunge Date: 28 Dec 1998 10:39:16 EST What state are you from? Maybe some of the good folks here can point you to rendezvous in your area. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 27 Dec 1998 14:31:53 +0000 unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mill, Kirk" Subject: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 28 Dec 1998 15:07:39 -0500 Well, it looks like my next project is a capote. I found some surplus Swiss army blankets (brown with red stripe) that look okay for the price (24.00) aand now I am looking for a good pattern. Does anyone have an opinion on the patterns out there? NW Traders, Eagle View etc. I have book by D. Montgomery with a pattern, has anyone tried it? I am not nearly as squeamish about cutting up some blankets as I was about cutting up hides, so I might just give this Montgomery pattern a rip.TIA. Kirk Mill P.S. for X-mas I made my 5 year old daughter a set of buckskins for her Ken doll. Ken aint no sissy anymore. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 28 Dec 1998 14:17:51 -0700 LOL Kirk, Just follow the instructions in Book of Buckskinning #2 (I think). It is really easy, after you finish it you,ll wonder why you didn't try it before. YMOS, Lonewolf ---------- > From: Mill, Kirk > To: 'ML MAILING LIST' > Cc: 'history mailing list' > Subject: MtMan-List: capotes > Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 1:07 PM > > Well, it looks like my next project is a capote. I found some surplus Swiss > army blankets (brown with red stripe) that look okay for the price (24.00) > aand now I am looking for a good pattern. Does anyone have an opinion on the > patterns out there? NW Traders, Eagle View etc. I have book by D. Montgomery > with a pattern, has anyone tried it? I am not nearly as squeamish about > cutting up some blankets as I was about cutting up hides, so I might just > give this Montgomery pattern a rip.TIA. > Kirk Mill > P.S. for X-mas I made my 5 year old daughter a set of buckskins for her Ken > doll. Ken aint no sissy anymore. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mill, Kirk" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 28 Dec 1998 16:29:01 -0500 > Just follow the instructions in Book of Buckskinning #2 (I think). It is > really easy, after you finish it you,ll wonder why you didn't try it > before. > > YMOS, > Lonewolf > [Mill, Kirk] Unfortunately they don't have that series at my library and I'm too cheap to buy it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MWMEDGAR@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 28 Dec 1998 17:36:12 EST Unsubscribe MWMEDGAR@AOL:.COM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 05 Oct 1998 14:39:22 -0500 Kirk' I used Missouri River Patterns for my capote ( grey blanket w/red stripe). It was very easy to follow and made a good looking garment. Crazy Crow Trading Post has the patterns in stock. I added a double thickmess to the back of mine to block wind. Bill "Chases Hawks" Vannoy Mill, Kirk wrote: > Well, it looks like my next project is a capote. I found some surplus Swiss > army blankets (brown with red stripe) that look okay for the price (24.00) > aand now I am looking for a good pattern. Does anyone have an opinion on the > patterns out there? NW Traders, Eagle View etc. I have book by D. Montgomery > with a pattern, has anyone tried it? I am not nearly as squeamish about > cutting up some blankets as I was about cutting up hides, so I might just > give this Montgomery pattern a rip.TIA. > Kirk Mill > P.S. for X-mas I made my 5 year old daughter a set of buckskins for her Ken > doll. Ken aint no sissy anymore. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 28 Dec 1998 18:34:11 +0000 Kirk, I have used Eagle View patterns, and Northwest Traders pattern. The Eagle View was used to make Children's Capotes. The NWT was used for my own. The NWT shows many different styles and sizes. It's been along time since I've looked at the EV pattern, but it allowed me, a novice,to sew up 2 capotes. I made mine as canoe capote. It is shorter, hangs to just under butt. I made a double cape, and left off the hood. I made mine from a surplus blanket first. After I used it, and was satisfied with the style, I made another out of a Whittney Horse Rug. One thing I did was sew the capote with the seams to the inside, thus my less than fancy stitching is hidden. Cut that blanket, and have fun with it..... Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 28 Dec 1998 20:54:14 EST In a message dated 98-12-28 16:32:45 EST, you write: << > Just follow the instructions in Book of Buckskinning #2 (I think). > Lonewolf > < [Mill, Kirk] Unfortunately they don't have that series at my library and I'm too < cheap to buy it. >> BOB #2 is correct. "too cheap to buy it"??? By the time you buy all the patterns in BOB #2, you'd be out considerably more than the $12.95 for the book! While a few of the articles in the BOB series should be taken with a grain of salt, the whole series has good references & worth the expense. They cover a lot of subjects, & their "how to" articles are realy good. Most of us didn't get the whole series at one time -- that'd hurt a bit. I got 'em as I saw a need -- not necessarily in order -- think #2 was the first one I got because of the patterns. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Gilbert" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Taking the plunge Date: 28 Dec 1998 22:05:25 -0600 (CST) On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote: > What state are you from? Maybe some of the good folks here can point you to > rendezvous in your area. I live in Iowa, Iowa City, to be exact. So far we have attended, as day visitors, Ushers Ferry 'Voo in Cedar Rapids and Fort Atkison 'Voo in north central Iowa. We have drivn to Mankato, Minn and Omaha, Ne for trade fairs to find gear. We have a suscription to Powder Horn News and are looking and planning ahead. Any help or advice is always welcome. Sue Gilbert (Old Hands) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes Date: 28 Dec 1998 20:10:37 -0800 (PST) On Sun, 27 Dec 1998, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > heavier than they should be. Anybody have any experience with > attempting to make a dugout canoe light enough to be moved with > reasonable ease and to allow adequate freeboard when underway? aye lanny a 14 footer made with thin walls etc. was made all neat and straight, now, after 2 yrs, the gunnels look like a broken backed snake, leaks like a congressman and she rides like green broke mustang. the original that is on display at the museum of the Nez Perce has walls about 2" thick and about 8 " of bottom, its about 30' long even the best dugouts we've made are heavy, cumbersome and take an act of congress to get upriver. I am no expert, merely a fellow who has been there once or twice Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 28 Dec 1998 21:33:40 -0700 What Lee has stated seems to be the norm for dugouts from several dozen replies I have received off_list, heavy, hard to handle, and crack in time, back to the drawing board. What about another type of skiff that's correct for the Rocky Mountains Fur Trade, bull boats are hard to control, birch bark are really an eastern vessel (no birch in our area big enough to be usable). Strip sided boats or a Canadian French water craft seems lighter, have seen a few articles on them. Most of the mid-west bateau's seen in museums or the reproduction ones seen on the Missouri from Omaha to Ft. deChartre seem heavy. What's your idea for a light, correct water vessel that fits in the 1800-1840 time period, used in the Rocky Mountain Fur trade? Buck ________ -----Original Message----- > >On Sun, 27 Dec 1998, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: >> heavier than they should be. Anybody have any experience with >> attempting to make a dugout canoe light enough to be moved with >> reasonable ease and to allow adequate freeboard when underway? > >aye lanny > >a 14 footer made with thin walls etc. was made all neat and straight, >now, after 2 yrs, the gunnels look like a broken backed snake, leaks like >a congressman and she rides like green broke mustang. > >the original that is on display at the museum of the Nez Perce has walls >about 2" thick and about 8 " of bottom, its about 30' long > >even the best dugouts we've made are heavy, cumbersome and take an act of >congress to get upriver. > >I am no expert, merely a fellow who has been there once or twice > >Regards > >Lee Newbill >Viola, Idaho >email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage >http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 28 Dec 1998 21:58:54 +0000 Buck, I have some interest in this subject. The Pacific coast had its Stripper canoes. I wonder how early, and further west the canvas canoe was??? Anyone have some interesting info.? I have seen the west coast dugouts In the Ft. Clatsop area. These were beautiful boats. Carved thin, and formed, these boats were elegant. I have done canoe treks. I have always used a modern canoe. I would be interested in hearing from other canoeists on how to 'primitive' canoe, with some predictability ( I have to get back to work next week...?). Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 28 Dec 1998 23:34:27 -0800 (PST) On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Barry Conner wrote: > What about another type of skiff that's correct for the Rocky Mountains Fur > Trade, bull boats are hard to control, birch bark are really an eastern > vessel (no birch in our area big enough to be usable). Strip sided boats or > a Canadian French water craft seems lighter, have seen a few articles on > them. Most of the mid-west bateau's seen in museums or the reproduction ones > seen on the Missouri from Omaha to Ft. deChartre seem heavy. > > What's your idea for a light, correct water vessel that fits in the > 1800-1840 time period, used in the Rocky Mountain Fur trade? I seem to remember an article by Angela Gotfred on batuex used west of the continental divide. These boats were simple, smallish and relatively light, although somewhat leaky as the boards were lashed (to save precious nails for other things) together (stitched?) to the wooden supports (thwarts?) and the gaps were caulked with pine tar etc. If faulty memory serves me further, they were used mostly on the Columbia River waterways by British Companies. We also had a relatively bizarre looking craft used by a local tribe (Kutenai) that resembled a birch bark (?) kayak more than a canoe. take a modern kayak, stretch it's opening to about 2/3 the boat (but still centered, and you have the concept. I've never seen any mention of these craft in the fur trade though, and while I have done some whitewater in craft not designed for the afore mentioned whitewater, I would be hesitant to take one of these craft on the mighty Snake. I will look in my limited library at home and see if what it says is different from what me limited brain remembers. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burning out canoes Date: 29 Dec 1998 05:40:56 -0600 That is just about what I thought. It seems that if you want a dugout = canoe you just have to be prepared to use plenty of muscle to run the = thing. Thanks for the info. Lanney -----Original Message----- > >On Sun, 27 Dec 1998, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: >> heavier than they should be. Anybody have any experience with >> attempting to make a dugout canoe light enough to be moved with >> reasonable ease and to allow adequate freeboard when underway?=20 > >aye lanny > >a 14 footer made with thin walls etc. was made all neat and straight, >now, after 2 yrs, the gunnels look like a broken backed snake, leaks = like >a congressman and she rides like green broke mustang. > >the original that is on display at the museum of the Nez Perce has = walls >about 2" thick and about 8 " of bottom, its about 30' long > >even the best dugouts we've made are heavy, cumbersome and take an act = of >congress to get upriver. > >I am no expert, merely a fellow who has been there once or twice > >Regards > >Lee Newbill >Viola, Idaho >email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage >http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 29 Dec 1998 06:51:04 -0700 Lee, Now that you mention it, I remember that article. I saved it a year or so ago, had a hard drive crash and lost it, Angela had given me the name of a gentlemen in Canada and had talked to him. He was putting together a set of plans that one could work off of to reconstruct a good copy of an original batuex used west of the continental divide. Angela hope your reading this and can provide the gentlemen's name or have him contact me off_line. Thanks for the wakeup call Lee. Buck _______________ -----Original Message----- >On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Barry Conner wrote: >> What about another type of skiff that's correct for the Rocky Mountains Fur >> Trade, bull boats are hard to control, birch bark are really an eastern >> vessel (no birch in our area big enough to be usable). Strip sided boats or >> a Canadian French water craft seems lighter, have seen a few articles on >> them. Most of the mid-west bateau's seen in museums or the reproduction ones >> seen on the Missouri from Omaha to Ft. deChartre seem heavy. >> >> What's your idea for a light, correct water vessel that fits in the >> 1800-1840 time period, used in the Rocky Mountain Fur trade? > >I seem to remember an article by Angela Gotfred on batuex used west of >the continental divide. These boats were simple, smallish and relatively >light, although somewhat leaky as the boards were lashed (to save >precious nails for other things) together (stitched?) to >the wooden supports (thwarts?) and the gaps were caulked with pine tar >etc. If faulty memory serves me further, they were used mostly on the >Columbia River waterways by British Companies. > >We also had a relatively bizarre looking craft used by a local tribe >(Kutenai) that resembled a birch bark (?) kayak more than a canoe. take >a modern kayak, stretch it's opening to about 2/3 the boat (but still >centered, and you have the concept. I've never seen any mention of these >craft in the fur trade though, and while I have done some whitewater in >craft not designed for the afore mentioned whitewater, I would be hesitant >to take one of these craft on the mighty Snake. > >I will look in my limited library at home and see if what it says is >different from what me limited brain remembers. > >Regards > >Lee Newbill >Viola, Idaho >email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage >http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Anderson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 29 Dec 1998 08:07:30 -0600 Lee Newbill wrote: > > On Mon, 28 Dec 1998, Barry Conner wrote: > > What about another type of skiff that's correct for the Rocky Mountains Fur > > Trade, bull boats are hard to control, birch bark are really an eastern > > vessel (no birch in our area big enough to be usable). Strip sided boats or > > a Canadian French water craft seems lighter, have seen a few articles on > > them. Most of the mid-west bateau's seen in museums or the reproduction ones > > seen on the Missouri from Omaha to Ft. deChartre seem heavy. > > > > What's your idea for a light, correct water vessel that fits in the > > 1800-1840 time period, used in the Rocky Mountain Fur trade? > As a new blackpowder shooter and history buff, but a long-time canoe traveler (including no small number of hours working on wood and canvas canoes and repairing navigational errors inflicted on aluminum and kevlar watercraft) I have some humble suggestions. These books may be hard to find, but try inter-library loan at your public or regional library. Adney E.T. & Chapelle H.I., 1964, The Bark Canoes and Skin Boats of North America. Blandford P., 1974, An Illustrated History of Small Boats. A History of Oared, Poled and Paddled Craft. Casson L., 1963, Sewn Boats. Christensen A.E., 1984, 'Sewn boats in Scandinavia.' in: McGrail S. (ed.) Johnstone P., 1974, The Archaeology of Ships. March E.J., 1970, Inshore Craft of Britain in the Days of Sail and Oar. McGowan A., 1981, Tiller and Whipstaff 1400-1700. McGowan A., 1981, The Century before Steam. McGrail S., 1985, Towards a classification of water transport. Nouhuys van, 1928, Dug-outs. Roberts K.G. & Shackleton P., 1983, The Canoe. Roberts O.T.P., 1983, An index for flat-bottom boats. Jerry Anderson On the Banks of the (Frozen) Missouri River ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 29 Dec 1998 09:10:30 -0700 I don't know about birch bark in other areas of the Rocky's, but it was used here in the Kootenai's (NW Montana, N. Idaho, Southern British Columbia). The shape was somewhat different than back east (at least the Kootenai Indian style). David Thompson used one. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: packratt Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 29 Dec 1998 11:19:33 -0500 Could someone send me the contact info for these two companies? Thanks packratt RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote: > Kirk, I have used Eagle View patterns, and Northwest Traders pattern. > The Eagle View was used to make Children's Capotes. The NWT was used for > my own. The NWT shows many different styles and sizes. It's been along > time since I've looked at the EV pattern, but it allowed me, a novice,to > sew up 2 capotes. I made mine as canoe capote. It is shorter, hangs to > just under butt. I made a double cape, and left off the hood. I made > mine from a surplus blanket first. After I used it, and was satisfied > with the style, I made another out of a Whittney Horse Rug. One thing I > did was sew the capote with the seams to the inside, thus my less than > fancy stitching is hidden. Cut that blanket, and have fun with it..... > Hardtack > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: boats Date: 29 Dec 1998 09:29:56 +0100 When the "mountain men" made boats and described them, they were often canoe-shaped, built on a sapling frame like a bull boat, and covered with hide, like a bull boat. It seems that two (or more) hides sewn end to end were used to get length. It also seems that some of these boats were quite large and held substantial loads. There is an AJ Miller image of one of these boats with a whole crew of folks in it. Having never made or used one of these boats, I feel fully qualified to recommend them without reservation. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Austin, Tim" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 29 Dec 1998 10:34:20 -0600 Do not know about Eagle View, but Northwest Traders have a web site at: http://www.nwtrader.com/ Good luck. > ---------- > From: packratt[SMTP:packratt@erols.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 10:19 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes > > Could someone send me the contact info for these two companies? > Thanks > packratt > > RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote: > > > Kirk, I have used Eagle View patterns, and Northwest Traders pattern. > > The Eagle View was used to make Children's Capotes. The NWT was used > for > > my own. The NWT shows many different styles and sizes. It's been along > > time since I've looked at the EV pattern, but it allowed me, a novice,to > > sew up 2 capotes. I made mine as canoe capote. It is shorter, hangs to > > just under butt. I made a double cape, and left off the hood. I made > > mine from a surplus blanket first. After I used it, and was satisfied > > with the style, I made another out of a Whittney Horse Rug. One thing I > > did was sew the capote with the seams to the inside, thus my less than > > fancy stitching is hidden. Cut that blanket, and have fun with it..... > > Hardtack > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: paul mueller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 29 Dec 1998 11:36:21 -0500 packratt wrote: > > Could someone send me the contact info for these two companies? > Thanks > packratt > > RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote: > > > Kirk, I have used Eagle View patterns, and Northwest Traders pattern. > > The Eagle View was used to make Children's Capotes. The NWT was used for > > my own. The NWT shows many different styles and sizes. It's been along > > time since I've looked at the EV pattern, but it allowed me, a novice,to > > sew up 2 capotes. I made mine as canoe capote. It is shorter, hangs to > > just under butt. I made a double cape, and left off the hood. I made > > mine from a surplus blanket first. After I used it, and was satisfied > > with the style, I made another out of a Whittney Horse Rug. One thing I > > did was sew the capote with the seams to the inside, thus my less than > > fancy stitching is hidden. Cut that blanket, and have fun with it..... > > Hardtack > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] northwest traders 5055 west jackson rd enon oh 45323 937-767-9244 www.nwtrader.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 29 Dec 1998 11:42:11 -0500 unsubscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 29 Dec 1998 13:10:11 -0800 Kirk, I have a couple of pieces of advice when making a capote. First, make sure you have good ventalation while cutting and sewing. The wool makes a lot of lint. It really makes me sneeze. The higher quality the wool, the less it does this, but all will be pretty "dusty". Second, unless you feel like you really need themt, don't put those long ties on the hood. They get caught on everything and end up at the bottom of the hooter! After having a capote that wraps around and a long tailed wool shirt, I much prefer the shirt. If I were to make another capote for myself, I would put buttons on it. Sidney ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 29 Dec 1998 14:04:37 -0800 Barry Conner wrote: > What's your idea for a light, correct water vessel that fits in the > 1800-1840 time period, used in the Rocky Mountain Fur trade? > > Buck Buck, A couple of years back I decided that I didn't want to take my Old Town into what was supposed to be an otherwise Period over water trek our group does each spring up the Palouse river off the Snake in WA. After a bit of research I settled on the classic Bateau and found in John Gardeners book "THE DORY" a set of lines and offsets that would produce a 19' long by 52" wide bateau that could be made by anyone and could be made heavy as the author intended or light as I chose to do. Brother Leonard Conelly put together a nice article on the boats used in the fur trade and published it in T&LR about a year later. In his article he said that though these boats were common and used plank construction (lapstrake, etc.) they would not be practical these days because of the weight and the need to keep them wet so they would stay tight. I had taken his advise before I heard it and made mine of 1/4" marine plywood. Our friend "Badger" had made one 18' long using fir planks in classical lapstrake construction but it is too heavy for two men to launch off a trailer without a way to lift it up. My solution has proved to be much lighter and handier. Over the course of most of Jan. through early April I laid up this 19'r and ended up with a period correct style boat that launches easily, can be paddled, rowed or sailed as the originals were. It was not a difficult project and the basic shape of this type of boat can be made in almost any size you have the gumption and materials to make. Last spring I took my wife, and my friend John "Digger" Pollack into the Palouse camp site in this 19' bateau. We went fairly light but all three of us and all our gear fit in this boat safely. I sailed it in upstream using a Sprit Sail with Boom and rowed it out down stream into a 25 knot wind with 2' seas. I was working hard the whole way but never had as much problem as many of the other craft did especially the single manned canoes. On another trip to Lake Roosevelt on the Columbia above Grand Coulee Dam with four of us paddling and no cargo, we were able to run circles around 24' freight canoes with 8 man crews. There is a plan running around in wooden boat building circles called the 6 hr canoe which is really a small bateau. It is about 16" long and will get one man and his gear into most any water born trek he wants to go into. It only takes two sheets of plywood to build and can be made in a living room. My boat wasn't much more difficult but it took a room 24' long to loft it up. Leonard's' article pointed out that this type of boat was used not just on the Columbia but on the eastward drainage's too. If you look at some of the shipping manifests of goods going west to the trapping grounds there was a considerable quantity of oakum and pine tar. These two items were used to seal up simple plank built boats that were built on site with simple techniques and used to freight pelts back to St. Louie and else where. Not to say that bull boats or hide boats or even birch bark weren't used but they were not the best and not the most important. Birch bark canoes were used in Canada going to the Rockies and back but Birch bark is not as easy to find in the Rockies as it is in the lake country much farther east and so people like David Tompson and others made use of the bateau/dory style hull to get them where they wanted to go. If some one is serious about wanting to build a big bateau using the old and new techniques, I will be more than happy to help them along the way. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > ________ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lee Newbill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 29 Dec 1998 14:09:53 -0800 Hardtack, YOu write: RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote: > Buck, I have some interest in this subject. The Pacific coast had its > Stripper canoes. I wonder how early, and further west the canvas canoe > was??? I'm confused as to what you mean by "Stripper" canoes? I don't recall ever reading anything about this type of construction being used before advent of modern adhesives. As to the canvas canoe, I believe it too is a late 19th Century craft developed in the general area of the Adarondacks and not something involved in the pre 1840 fur trade. > Anyone have some interesting info.? I have seen the west coast > dugouts In the Ft. Clatsop area. These were beautiful boats. Carved > thin, and formed, these boats were elegant. I have done canoe treks. I > have always used a modern canoe. I would be interested in hearing from > other canoeists on how to 'primitive' canoe, with some predictability ( I > have to get back to work next week...?). Hardtack I hope my other post on the bateau I built is what you are looking for. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "C Davis" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 29 Dec 1998 17:39:05 -0500 I'm interested in your boat design. Where can I get some particulars? Capt. Lahti' said: > -----Original Message----- > Over the course of most of Jan. through early April I laid up > this 19'r and > ended up with a period correct style boat that launches easily, > can be paddled, > rowed or sailed as the originals were. It was not a difficult > project and the > basic shape of this type of boat can be made in almost any size > you have the > gumption and materials to make. > There is a plan running around in wooden boat building circles > called the 6 hr > canoe which is really a small bateau. It is about 16" long and > will get one man > and his gear into most any water born trek he wants to go into. > It only takes > two sheets of plywood to build and can be made in a living room. > My boat wasn't > much more difficult but it took a room 24' long to loft it up. > Would be interested in this boat too perhaps. > If some one is serious about wanting to build a big bateau using > the old and new > techniques, I will be more than happy to help them along the way. I > remain....... Don't know how serious yet but I'm intrigued. > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > -Craig ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 29 Dec 1998 15:40:08 -0800 C Davis wrote: > I'm interested in your boat design. Where can I get some particulars? > Craig, Like I said, the boats' particulars were taken from a drawing in the Dory Book by Gardener. You can probably find it in a good library but if not I' sure Amazon or some other book seller can get it for you. I didn't have any problem finding it. It is called the 19' heavy batteau and can be found on page 140 in the Dory Book. The plans for the 6 hr canoe are available and mentioned in various places but the best starting place is Wooden Boat Mag. which you can pick up at a good Mag. Rack. In it will be info on how to order a catalogue of their plans and such. > Would be interested in this boat too perhaps. Which one are you talking about? > Don't know how serious yet but I'm intrigued. How intrigued are you? Enough to look for the book and mag. I mentioned so we can both look at the same picture and know what we are talking about? What else can I help you with? I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 29 Dec 1998 18:09:09 -0800 (PST) On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Barry Conner wrote: > Now that you mention it, I remember that article. I saved it a year or so > ago, had a hard drive crash and lost it Buck Found it. That article was "Bateau in the Northwest" by Thomas Swan. volume XIII of the Northwest Journal. Most of the boats he speaks of are large, in the 30' range, however, he also mentions several smaller utilitarian type vessels, one of which was only 12' long. Refers to them as Clinker built, or lapstrake construction. As Cap'n Lahti mentioned, these are still gonna be plenty heavy unless you lighten the load with modern plywood. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 29 Dec 1998 19:39:31 -0700 Lee, Think your right, as I remember his name was "Swanney". Thanks Buck ___________________ -----Original Message----- >On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Barry Conner wrote: >> Now that you mention it, I remember that article. I saved it a year or so >> ago, had a hard drive crash and lost it > >Buck > >Found it. > >That article was "Bateau in the Northwest" by Thomas Swan. >volume XIII of the Northwest Journal. > >Most of the boats he speaks of are large, in the 30' range, however, he >also mentions several smaller utilitarian type vessels, one of which was >only 12' long. Refers to them as Clinker built, or lapstrake >construction. > >As Cap'n Lahti mentioned, these are still gonna be plenty heavy unless you >lighten the load with modern plywood. > >Regards > >Lee Newbill >Viola, Idaho >email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage >http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 29 Dec 1998 22:26:52 +0000 Capt. Lahti, You are right about 'stripper', I should have said 'plank'. Our local Indians, the Chumash, made plank canoes sealed with tar. The tar just seeps out of the ground in certain areas here. Thanks for the info on the bateau. That sounds real interesting. Do you know how much your 19 footer weighed? I'm spoiled by a 17' Kevlar canoe. I can keep a boat, but not a horse, so most of my long distance treks are by boat. I would love to get out of a plastic boat. I'll be checking out that wooden boat mag.. thanks Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 29 Dec 1998 21:57:56 -0800 Hardtack, Thanks for the clarification, thought it must be something like that. The 19'r probably weighs close to 250+ just guessing. It has a load capacity up around 900 to 1000 lb. If I built another one I would consider making it a bit wider on the bottom and amid ships at the gunwales. I thought I would be able to haul it around on top of the truck but ended up using one of those small utility trailers with a longer tongue. before we put the cedar floor boards two guys could pick it up standing at the ends. I really encourage folks to consider making a wood boat for this game. It sure puts a whole new slant on how you feel about a water trip. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote: > Capt. Lahti, You are right about 'stripper', I should have said > 'plank'. Our local Indians, the Chumash, made plank canoes sealed with > tar. The tar just seeps out of the ground in certain areas here. Thanks > for the info on the bateau. That sounds real interesting. Do you know > how much your 19 footer weighed? I'm spoiled by a 17' Kevlar canoe. I > can keep a boat, but not a horse, so most of my long distance treks are > by boat. I would love to get out of a plastic boat. I'll be checking > out that wooden boat mag.. thanks Hardtack > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 29 Dec 1998 23:18:18 -0800 (PST) Good Morning Cap'n Lahti You probably mentioned it, but I can't remember... so, what did you do about sealing and painting? Regards Lee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 30 Dec 1998 00:04:36 +0000 Capt. Lahti, In the beteau, I like the idea of paddle, row, or sail. I have a 17' poly canoe (Mohawk) which will haul over half ton. I can load it on top of car by myself, easily. I still like the idea of an Historic vessel. Anyone else in- terested? Between us, we could build a fleet..... Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Correct water vessel Date: 30 Dec 1998 09:17:33 -0800 Lee Newbill wrote: > Good Morning Cap'n Lahti > > You probably mentioned it, but I can't remember... so, what did you do > about sealing and painting? > > Regards > > Lee Lee, Since this boat uses plywood rather than plank construction it's seams will not swell tight naturally. I closed all seams with construction epoxy and tapped all seams on the outside with 4" fiber glass tape in resin. I didn't glass the hull so-as-to keep the weight down. All wood surfaces inside and out were drenched in wood preservative which I think contains copper. I painted the boat inside and out with a paint the paint store recommended for concrete floors since it is formulated for heavy traffic and moisture resistance. The wood fittings that I wanted to leave natural got a few coats of clear marine varnish. I would estimate that I have about $300 max. in materials but Tom Crooks and I were able to get the marine plywood for about $15 a sheet because it had some minor edge damage. A good grade of exterior plywood will work just fine if sealed well and the frames can be made of almost any 1" by 2"-3" material you can find. I used pine but Oak would be a bit stronger though heavier and I can see lumber salvaged from Pallets as working just fine. This is borderline for historic content so I hope no one is offended by the use of the space. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 30 Dec 1998 12:55:20 EST In a message dated 12/28/98 NaugaMok writes: << BOB #2 is correct. "too cheap to buy it"??? By the time you buy all the patterns in BOB #2, you'd be out considerably more than the $12.95 for the book! While a few of the articles in the BOB series should be taken with a grain of salt, the whole series has good references & worth the expense. >> Couldn't agree more. Might cost a bit more, and not that much, to buy the needed volume of B.O.B. and then for the other volumes you have something to ask for for birthdays, Fathers Day, Christmas etc. that really isn't all thet expensive. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 30 Dec 1998 13:01:30 EST In a message dated 12/29/98 sidney writes: << Second, unless you feel like you really need themt, don't put those long ties on the hood. They get caught on everything and end up at the bottom of the hooter! >> Amen to that, as a matter of fact that tail was only the first to go, the hood went next! Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes Date: 30 Dec 1998 17:24:56 EST A layered or caped shoulder provides great warmth and can be pulled around your head/face when necessary. i think the design is called 'frontiersman' (at least in Panther's catalog) and also has a four-button front. nothing hanging down or getting caught in the brush. YHS, Barney P Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: MtMan-List: Happy New Year Date: 30 Dec 1998 17:51:47 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE341D.11D63720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Look whats going on with Lewis and Clark as the new year comes in. ************ January 1st, 1806. Our repast of this day, tho' better than that of = Cristmass, consisted principally in the anticipation of the 1st day of = January 1807, when in the bosom of our friends we hope to participate in = the mirth and hilarity of the day, and when with the zest given by the = recollection of the present, we shall completely, both mentally and = corporally, enjoy the repast which the hand of civilization has prepared = for us. MERIWETHER LEWIS Men were put to work making candles, boiling ocean water for salt, = preserving elk meat in a smokehouse, and sewing clothes from elk hides = for the return trip home. Clark labored over a new map that would replace eastern speculation with = the hard facts of western geography. Lewis wrote page after page of descriptions of animals and plants = unknown to science-from the giant sitka spruce tree to the evergreen = huckleberry; from ring-necked ducks and whistling swans to small = smelt-the candlefish-that the men roasted and ate whole. ************ For a new year it seems things are well with our early travelers, fed = and full of thoughts of returning home. May you and your have a good New Year. Later YF&B Buck Conner ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE341D.11D63720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Look whats going on with Lewis and Clark as the = new year=20 comes in.
 
************
January = 1st, 1806.=20 Our repast of this day, tho' better than that of Cristmass, consisted=20 principally in the anticipation of the 1st day of January 1807, when in = the=20 bosom of our friends we hope to participate in the mirth and hilarity of = the=20 day, and when with the zest given by the recollection of the present, we = shall=20 completely, both mentally and corporally, enjoy the repast which the = hand of=20 civilization has prepared for us.
MERIWETHER LEWIS
 
Men were = put to work=20 making candles, boiling ocean water for salt, preserving elk meat in a=20 smokehouse, and sewing clothes from elk hides for the return trip=20 home.
Clark = labored over a new=20 map that would replace eastern speculation with the hard facts of = western=20 geography.
Lewis wrote = page after=20 page of descriptions of animals and plants unknown to science-from the = giant=20 sitka spruce tree to the evergreen huckleberry; from ring-necked ducks = and=20 whistling swans to small smelt-the candlefish-that the men roasted and = ate=20 whole.
 
************
For a new year it seems things are well with our early = travelers,=20 fed and full of thoughts of returning home.
May you and your = have a good=20 New Year.
Later
YF&B
 
Buck=20 Conner
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01BE341D.11D63720-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dammiller@juno.com (David A Miller) Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 30 Dec 1998 21:06:06 -0700 unsubscribe hist_text dammiller@juno.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Phil Petersen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide? Date: 30 Dec 1998 22:40:13 -0600 I have enough deer hides (hair on) to measure the 94'x48' inch suggested size once sewn together for a capote. If I made a pattern design out of this material would it be considered a capote or what? I would appreciate your feed back. Grasshoppa -----Original Message----- >Kirk, I have a couple of pieces of advice when making a capote. First, make >sure you have good ventalation while cutting and sewing. The wool makes a >lot of lint. It really makes me sneeze. The higher quality the wool, the >less it does this, but all will be pretty "dusty". > >Second, unless you feel like you really need themt, don't put those long >ties on the hood. They get caught on everything and end up at the bottom of >the hooter! After having a capote that wraps around and a long tailed wool >shirt, I much prefer the shirt. If I were to make another capote for >myself, I would put buttons on it. > >Sidney > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide? Date: 30 Dec 1998 21:30:23 +0000 I would call it a WARM Capote. I won't suppose on the authenticity of such a comfort, but it sounds cozy. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide? Date: 30 Dec 1998 21:08:30 -0800 Grasshoppa, It is my impression that capote is a french word for a general style of winter coat probably made of wool blanket material. If you want to make a coat of hair on deer hides in a style consistent with a particular historical era, I only see one problem. Hair on deer hides are not a great material for making any garment other than a wall hanging. The problem is that deer hair is hollow and will break off quit easily with wear or contact with movement. Most friends (and myself) who have tried using hair on deer hides for sleeping pads, rugs or seat pads have found that they do not hold up to being touched. My thought is that after going to all the trouble of making such a garment, one will be shortly the owner of a coat with spots of hair worn off. Other types of fur do not exhibit this problem and you will find the same thing will happen with elk and moose hair on hides. I guess if you used them as a throw over you while sleeping, they may give some service. My other thought on your question is that IMHO, this would not be a very authentic garment for anything later than "Clan of the Cave Bear". But who's to say. I have never come across a reference to the frontiersman or indian making a "Coat" of hair on deer hides. Hope this was of help. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Phil Petersen wrote: > I have enough deer hides (hair on) to measure the 94'x48' inch suggested > size once sewn together for a capote. If I made a pattern design out of > this material would it be considered a capote or what? I would appreciate > your feed back. > > Grasshoppa > -----Original Message----- > From: Sidney Porter > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 1:09 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes > > >Kirk, I have a couple of pieces of advice when making a capote. First, > make > >sure you have good ventalation while cutting and sewing. The wool makes a > >lot of lint. It really makes me sneeze. The higher quality the wool, the > >less it does this, but all will be pretty "dusty". > > > >Second, unless you feel like you really need themt, don't put those long > >ties on the hood. They get caught on everything and end up at the bottom > of > >the hooter! After having a capote that wraps around and a long tailed > wool > >shirt, I much prefer the shirt. If I were to make another capote for > >myself, I would put buttons on it. > > > >Sidney > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Cardon" Subject: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey? Date: 30 Dec 1998 22:21:31 -0700 I have come across some slight reference to hand knit wool sweaters being in use from 1799 on. While the word "Sweater" is not used, the words "Jersey" and "Geurnsey" (or Gansey) are used, and are known to refer to a knitted garment. Some mention of knitted jersey "Frocks" is made, and almost all reference to use, points to Seamen of the British Isles. They were probably in use in Scandanavia as well. Any thoughts or suggestions on whether a hand knit wool sweater would be of acceptable authenticity for use in re-enacting the Western Fur Trade era? how about an earlier era? Thanks, -Lee Cardon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mmorgan" Subject: MtMan-List: newhouse traps Date: 30 Dec 1998 14:31:31 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3401.18245B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! I just bought a group of traps and one was labeled "newhouse #114". = It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 ft. long. I can't read anything on the = pan and was wondering if this could be the right number as it doesn't = jibe with the other numbers and sizes I am familiar with. Thanks in = advance. Michael in Kansas ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3401.18245B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi! I just bought a group of traps = and one was=20 labeled "newhouse #114".  It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 = ft.=20 long.  I can't read anything on the pan and was wondering if this = could be=20 the right number as it doesn't jibe with the other numbers and sizes I = am=20 familiar with.  Thanks in advance.  Michael in=20 Kansas
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3401.18245B00-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous calander Date: 29 Dec 1998 21:05:57 -0800 This message was forwarded to me, I think it's good stuff, and I think a lot of people on this list will be interested in what he has to offer. Also those of you interested in dugouts, after you open the rendezvous page, go to Crasy Wolf's home page, go to photos, and the first couple on that page are photo's of Babbles at Frog Holler in a nice looking dugout. >Fellow Buckskinners, > >I have written a web page for a national list of Black Powder Rendezvous. >The way it works is this. I have a database that contains information >about rendezvous. The website allows users to select a month and a state, >and then gives them a list of rendezvous for their selection. From this >list, clicking on a particular rendezvous will take them to a page of >further details about that rendezvous. You will notice that there are >only a few states in the "State" select button. When a event is entered >with a new state, the state is automatically entered into the select >button. This way users will not waste their time looking for entries in a >state that don't exist. > >Anyone can enter their rendezvous into the database over the Web. The >rendezvous are written to a temporary database so I can review them, make >data type corrections and put them into the main database. This step >allows >me to keep bad entries out of the main database such as we might get from >kids messing around. It seems like most clubs have a computer person. >Clubs should designate one person to make entries to the list and maintain >them, (changing dates from year to year, or changing the persons in >charge). Only myself and the person that submits an entry can edit that >entry. > >At present, the list contains a bunch of rendezvous from 1998. I entered >these from a written list that is distributed around Southern Oregon and >Northern California. If one of these rendezvous is yours, enter in your >listing for next year and I will remove the old listing. Or e-mail me and >I will put a username and password in that event so you can access it from >the edit page. I am leaving the old listings in for a while so people can >see how the list works. > >Please check out the list and send this e-mail to any buckskinners you >know. The list could grow into a useful tool for buckskinners all over the >States. > >Thanks, Crazy Wolf > >http://eddie.grrtech.com/rendezvous/calendar > > eddie@grrtech.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide? Date: 31 Dec 1998 02:05:42 EST hang that hair-on hide on the wall. the hairs will break with movement or rubbing as they are hollow. skins of fur-bearers, rather than hair-on hides could be used to make a coat that would hold up and keep you way warmer. ask any raccoon or buffalo yhs, BPFife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: newhouse traps Date: 31 Dec 1998 04:18:25 -0600 mmorgan wrote: > > Hi! I just bought a group of traps and one was labeled "newhouse > #114". It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 ft. long. I can't read > anything on the pan and was wondering if this could be the right > number as it doesn't jibe with the other numbers and sizes I am > familiar with. Thanks in advance. Michael in Kans I am not familiar with a #114, I haven't used many steel traps. However, Fur,Fish and Game magazine has people you can write to on such subjects. It's a pretty good magazine too. I don't have an address but I do have a phone number,614-231-9585. Good Luck Snakeshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide? Date: 31 Dec 1998 04:27:05 -0600 Phil Petersen wrote: > > I have enough deer hides (hair on) to measure the 94'x48' inch suggested > size once sewn together for a capote. If I made a pattern design out of > this material would it be considered a capote or what? I would appreciate > your feed back. > > Grasshoppa > -----Original Message----- > From: Sidney Porter > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 1:09 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes > > >Kirk, I have a couple of pieces of advice when making a capote. First, > make > >sure you have good ventalation while cutting and sewing. The wool makes a > >lot of lint. It really makes me sneeze. The higher quality the wool, the > >less it does this, but all will be pretty "dusty". > > > >Second, unless you feel like you really need themt, don't put those long > >ties on the hood. They get caught on everything and end up at the bottom > of > >the hooter! After having a capote that wraps around and a long tailed > wool > >shirt, I much prefer the shirt. If I were to make another capote for > >myself, I would put buttons on it. > > > >Sidney > > > > > > I would not want to get caught in the woods with the hair side out. somebody might want to shoot it for supper. It will make a pretty good bow quiver but you will wear bald spots in it. For bow quivers it works best if it is bark tanned or lined with cow hide or something tougher than the deer hide. Snakeshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: newhouse traps Date: 31 Dec 1998 07:03:10 -0700 The address is: FUR-FISH-GAME, 2878 East Main St., Columbus, OH 43209 Nice people to deal with and will probably be very helpful, plus a very good magazine. Buck _______________________ -----Original Message----- >mmorgan wrote: >> >> Hi! I just bought a group of traps and one was labeled "newhouse >> #114". It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 ft. long. I can't read >> anything on the pan and was wondering if this could be the right >> number as it doesn't jibe with the other numbers and sizes I am >> familiar with. Thanks in advance. Michael in Kans > >I am not familiar with a #114, I haven't used many steel traps. >However, Fur,Fish and Game magazine has people you can write to >on such subjects. It's a pretty good magazine too. >I don't have an address but I do have a phone number,614-231-9585. > >Good Luck >Snakeshot > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey? Date: 31 Dec 1998 07:18:10 -0700 Lee, If you check your coastal seamen history you'll find that the New England states had knitting mills and the Rev. War sailors wore knitted sweaters, I will look I have a pattern around here that we use to use when doing that period that was gotten from one of the boat museums in MASS. I had talked to Charles E. Hanson Jr (Museum of the Fur Trade), and he felt that such an item and the skills were in St. Louis by the War of 1812, so as far as going west would think that's a possibility. Later Buck _______________- -----Original Message----- >I have come across some slight reference to hand knit wool sweaters being >in use from 1799 on. > >While the word "Sweater" is not used, the words "Jersey" and "Geurnsey" (or >Gansey) are used, and are known to refer to a knitted garment. > >Some mention of knitted jersey "Frocks" is made, and almost all reference >to use, points to Seamen of the British Isles. They were probably in use in >Scandanavia as well. > >Any thoughts or suggestions on whether a hand knit wool sweater would be of >acceptable authenticity for use in re-enacting the Western Fur Trade era? >how about an earlier era? > > >Thanks, >-Lee Cardon > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: guernsey froks Date: 31 Dec 1998 10:34:59 +0100 Guernsey frocks were indeed knitted wool upper body garments that we would call sweaters today. They were prominently associated with seararers/fishermen from the Gurnsey Island and so received that name. I do not know when they were earliest used. They were clearly available in this country (whether made here or abroad) in the early 19th century and moreover were definately available in the west. We found records of a number of sales of guernsey frocks to mountain men types at Ft Hall in the mid-1830s. There is more information about these garments in the piece I co-authored on trapper clothing in the BOB VII. If you are interested you should check it out. Most of the descriptions and photos of 19th century guernsey frocks show a long sleeve, "crew neck" about waist length or slightly longer pull-over garment. The prevalent color seems to have been dark--blue or black. Some refernces to horizontal stripes can be found, and these may have been more popular with sailors. An excellent modern replication is the Fillson Fisherman's Sweater. It is dark blue and very tightly and heavily knitted of worsted. They are pricey but very high quality and made in USA. I just got one for Christmas and plan to use in on my next winter event (which, up north here, is any time other than mid-July). Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey? Date: 31 Dec 1998 17:13:37 EST Lee, You have no doubt read Beth Gilguns article in the latest Muzzleloader by now. I think it pretty well answers your question about the common use of knit items. I was astounded at how many knit stockings were available. I still wonder how much woolen knit materials were brought "upriver" or to rendezvous. Perhaps some of our inventory and trade list experts amoung the group can give some answers. Happy New Year Mate! Todd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Verlin Kinsey" Subject: MtMan-List: Was Capotes now Book of Buckskinning Date: 31 Dec 1998 15:13:08 PST Even better is the auction on ebay that ends tomorrow. Item# 51551744 Volumns 1-4 of the Book of Buckskinning Currently less than $30.00 for the set. Verlin ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Cardon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey? Date: 31 Dec 1998 18:30:15 -0700 For a pilgrim,sure. But it would last only about a year,then what? I haven't seen knitted goods in the trade inventories and natives DID NOT knit,so for a hivernant,I would say other than possibly a tuque(voyageurs cap) I doubt that knit sweaters,etc. were common. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well Jeff, There is evidence of native knitting. The Northwest pacific tribes have a knitting heritage, and the Salish specifically have a rich knitting tradition, the problem being... documenting the time frame that "We" are interested in. That is kind of another can of worms though, anybody out there have any further info on aboriginal knitting habits, items, etc. ? A sweater on the frontier would certainly not be common, (glad to see reference made by Allen in previous post to sales of Geurnsey Frocks at Fort Hall, in the appropriate time period) but as a person were to enter a fort or some other civilized or semi-civilized area, a Frock might be found in more common use either because of availability, or possibly because in a fort or town, storage of clothing would be a lot easier. Knowing what we know about socks, hats, gloves/mittens and the like being so widely available, it is just curious to me that there is not more mention of knit garments. This sweater question keeps bugging me because I have a suspicion that knit frocks were more common than previously thought, but I'm out on a limb because of the low volume of documentation on this item. I don't have a fully developed personna, but I would start by having some ocean travel or work in my background, and Salish side-seam moccasins on my feet, any contact with a tribe, or travel though a trading post that would have sweaters available, might catch the eye of a salty trapper. No matter how much of a pilgrim or hivernant you may or may not be, you will agree that on a cool night, a thick geurnsey frock would be "Another kind of Comfort" ! Happy New Year, Lee Cardon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Hair-on deer hides Date: 31 Dec 1998 19:29:43 -0700 Many if not most Native tribes west of the bison area made hair-on deer robes for sleeping and to throw over their shoulders for warmth. This is documented from early points of contact and from specimens .... though none that I know of were made into coats or capotes, just blankets and skirts (men's skirts in N. California). What Captain Lahti said about deer hides shedding lots of hair is true for winter hides but there is an exception. The trick with hair-on deer and similar animals is to use the skins of ones harvested with a very early winter coat. The hair at this point is thick, fairly short, and not yet hollow. It does not have the same brittleness problems that winter hides have. Where we live in Montana the hunting season is too late for this, but the hunting season occurs perfectly during this timing in western Oregon and N. California.....generally about October. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: MtMan-List: Hugh Glass locale Date: 31 Dec 1998 20:17:26 -0800 Rereading the epic of Hugh Glass (under Maj. Henry 1823, chewed by "grissly bear" and left to die in the care of Fitzgerald and Bridger, abandoned) I decided to check the locale closely on a modern map. I was surprised to find that the area of the mauling, which Dale Morgan gives as 350 miles from Fort Kiowa, up the Grand River, is near an area of North Dakota where I cut wheat during the summer of 1974. I recall the area around Reeder and Hettinger, North Dakota as vast rolling prairie, not the mountains I had pictured in my mind. Since '74 is a long way away, for me, and I hadn't the leisure to roam the area complete, I was hoping 'nother reader of this fine list is more familiar with the area than I be. If so, could you fill us in on what the area is like, and any more details of the incident? BTW, re: the boats thread ... some relevant pix pg 341-345 Carl P. Russell, Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men. -- JW "LRay" Stephens, Squadron Commander; Lobo Solo Squadron EPP Technician, Primary Color Systems, Inc., Irvine, CA ... ICQ# 20564775 "mean people suck"