From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1169 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, March 23 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1169 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: patches and char cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth -       MtMan-List: char cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... -       MtMan-List: char-wood -       Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth -       MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -       MtMan-List: canadian iceman -       MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Tough crowd/target loads... -       Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -       Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... -       Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth -       MtMan-List: char cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -       MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? -       Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -       Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? -       Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -       MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper -       Re: MtMan-List: feeling bad, looking good???? -       MtMan-List: char cloth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 08:15:03 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth POOH asked, The all-cotton baby flannel sold at Wal-Mart makes excellent cleaning patches. I'll buy whatever color is currently on sale, a couple yards lasts a long time. They also sell a material called Monk's cloth, a very loose weave all-cotton material that makes the best char cloth I have ever seen. Some will debate that terry towels make better but it hasn't been proven to me. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 07:59:26 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth > POOH asked, > bought at Wal-Mart make good char cloth?> I could not imagine buying cloth for char when one old pair of jeans provides enough char to last a life time. I'm a member of the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard of Great Falls Montana, and what we are studying is what was used long after all the char cloth was gone. Someone mentioned punky birch wood. Some here have been studying the use of charcoal. That is perhaps the bigger question. What was used after the char cloth ran out? bb - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:10:48 -0600 From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth Just another tidbit about char cloth. Many fires are made on the fire place from the night before. I like to save char cloth and good tinder by catching a spark on a single small char cloth then, taking two pieces of blackened wood that had not burned completely, sandwich the cloth between then and blow on it or fan it. The char catches the char-wood and provides a huge coal that will catch even poor tender. Good char-wood can be carried by just digging through the fireplace before you move on. I've rubbed black powder into punky and even slightly damp wood then made sparks over it. Watch your fingers don't get too close; a little powder goes a long way. You can make a stick glow in a dozen places like this. No char cloth needed. Keep the tow from cleaning your rifle. After it won't wash clean any more (for future cleaning), it will dry into some of the best tender for fire making. Will any one share their trail method of cleaning their firearms with me? How much tow was carried by mountain men? Is any other material or method known? I know a tow worm would indicate tow or other fiber. Would wool be used or even work well? Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 08:22:49 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > What some in our group are discussing is the use of charcoal which is not the same as a coal from what I understand. Evidently charcoal is much superior to coals. The making of charcoal is a bit more involved. I haven't tried either yet. I'll try your method in two weeks during our annual spring beaver trapping trip. My neighbor raises bison and I find clumps of bison wool blowing around all the time. The birds in our area use it in their nest too. I wonder how that would work as a tow substitute? I don't believe it is too absorbent however. bb > > > Just another tidbit about char cloth. Many fires are made on the fire > place from the night before. I like to save char cloth and good tinder > by catching a spark on a single small char cloth then, taking two > pieces of blackened wood that had not burned completely, sandwich the > cloth between then and blow on it or fan it. The char catches the > char-wood and provides a huge coal that will catch even poor tender. > Good char-wood can be carried by just digging through the fireplace > before you move on. > > I've rubbed black powder into punky and even slightly damp wood then > made sparks over it. Watch your fingers don't get too close; a little > powder goes a long way. You can make a stick glow in a dozen places > like this. No char cloth needed. > > Keep the tow from cleaning your rifle. After it won't wash clean any > more (for future cleaning), it will dry into some of the best tender > for fire making. > > Will any one share their trail method of cleaning their firearms with > me? How much tow was carried by mountain men? Is any other material or > method known? I know a tow worm would indicate tow or other fiber. > Would wool be used or even work well? > > Jim > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:19:57 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... magpie with the load you are using i would bet you are shooting a 1-70 twist gun--- a lot depends on many things such as twist, depth of rifleing and slickness of the bore and lube used. calculating accuracy loads for 54's that shoot a .535 round ball with a .015-.019 pillow ticking and shooting 3f goex or elephant is usually about the following depending on the twist 1-48 75 gr FFFG 80Gr FFG 1-66 82 gr FFFG 87Gr FFG 1-70 100 gr FFFg 110 gr FFG for a 1-48 twist there is usually about a 10 gr range in the best or most accurate load for a 1-66 twist there is usually about a 20 gr range in the best or most accurate load for a 1-70 twist there is usually about a 30 gr range in the best or most accurate load so as you see the slower the twist the less powder critical a gun is but you have to add more powder to get the same amount of accuracy or smaller groop the above was calculated then verified by actually getting out and shooting to see if it was right or close---for more info you can read - ---ned roberts book and thoughts on the kentuckey rifle in the golden age---there are also a couple of other references i can give you but those two help to explain the whys of some things lymans handbook is also a good reference for load info now with all the above said if you use the new swiss sporting powder you can plan on reducing the above loads by at least 10% to 15% and still get the same velosity and accuracy. most target shooters believe the most accurate load is just at or around the speed of sound for a black powder rifle so that the rifle cracks and does not boom---for a target load you dont need much more than will send your ball down range at from 1200 to 1400 FPS---with the load you are using on your 54 you should be sending your ball down range at well over 1800 FPS and that will put a pretty good dent in steel targets---but dont cut any bigger hole in paper (GBG) hawk ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:34:26 -0600 From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char-wood When you look at a burnt piece of wood and see the blackened squares still stuck to the wood just pop some off and you have something very much like charcoal. Sometimes frosty air will make air from the lungs pretty moist so I fan my glow in those cases. Sometimes I see burnt wood from forest fires. I need to try some of that years old char-wood and see if it catches well. Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:52:24 -0500 From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth I use tinder fungus and also tinder fungus that has been treated with saltpeter. D - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 9:59 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth > > POOH asked, > > > bought at Wal-Mart make good char cloth?> > > I could not imagine buying cloth for char when one old pair of jeans > provides enough char to last a life time. > I'm a member of the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard of Great Falls Montana, > and what we are studying is what was used long after all the char > cloth was gone. Someone mentioned punky birch wood. Some here have > been studying the use of charcoal. That is perhaps the bigger > question. What was used after the char cloth ran out? > bb > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:13:52 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Dear List, I checked my first traps of the season and caught four fat beaver! Only one was small the other three all blankets. The first trap I checked however was a bit of a mystery. I spied over the bank and instantly saw my first dead beaver floating in the shallow water. Within seconds I realized that it had been disemboweled. Dang eagle! I thought to myself. This would not be uncommon for a golden eagle to eat on a dead exposed carcass. Upon closer examination of the crime scene I realized a terrible battle had taken place between this large beaver and an unidentified canine, a very large canine! I recognized the canine tracks as ones I have seen crossing through this ranch several times before. This large ranch is only 40 miles from the front range of the Rockies as the crow flies, or as the wolf runs! The rancher told me to keep an eye out for wolves. I thought he was just kidding but after cutting these tracks on several occasions since last fall I was beginning to think he knew or saw something I didn't know. I have cut wolf tracks before and know them when I see them. He always traveled alone and was seemingly on a mission, not meandering about like dogs do. That combined with the remote location in close proximity to the Front Range made me sure it was indeed a wolf kill! The beaver also suffered a fate similar to a wild animal attack not the random killing of a domesticated dog. He was disemboweled cleanly with all his internal organs being eaten excepting his small intestine. I'm sure the beaver would have been carried away altogether had it not been held firmly in my foot hold trap. I am not one to waste a pelt so thought I could salvage it as it was only cleanly split open down the belly. After I removed it from the trap and examined it's back I saw it was a total loss. Horrendous wounds inflicted by the beast destroyed his back. Most the wounds were on its head and front half of its body. This beaver took his licks facing his foe and putting up a vicious counter attack I'm sure. A live beaver is not an animal to take lightly especially when caught in a trap. I did not see blood on the shore but I hope Mr. Beaver got his licks in! I don't know why the beaver sat on shore after being caught; the trap was not tangled on anything. Perhaps the wolf came along the instant the beaver was caught. I checked my traps very early that day so only the owls know the real story. In my 20 years of beaver trapping this is the first time I ever lost one to a predator. I did not reset the trap as I know this robber will visit it again for a second meal. If it were not considered a crime more serious than the taking of a human life I would have hanged the area with snares and reaped revenge upon this four legged thief. I would have avenged the poor beaver and given the devil dog a taste of his own medicine. beaverboy - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:35:10 -0600 From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: canadian iceman Angela wrote; From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Canadian Iceman update Date: 15 Sep 1999 11:06:05 -0600 Yesterday's newspaper had an update on the Canadian Iceman found on the Tatsenshini Glacier. Dating is still uncertain. The range is expected to be sometime between 250 and 5000 B.P. (Before Present), with early guesses favoring 2000 BP. The Champagne and Aishik First Nations, in whose traditional hunting territory the remains were found, have given their consent to have the ice man studied; they have dubbed him "Kwaday Dan Sinchi" (kwah-DAY dun sin-CHEE) which means Long Ago Man Found. The remains have now been moved to the Royal British Columbia Museum in Victoria for study; the body includes some soft tissue, but it's unclear from the article just how much. The remains of a moose and antlers that were found nearby have yet to be dated or linked to Kwaday Dan Sinchi. Sorry, no new info on clothing or other artifacts. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net _________________ Has there been any news about this fellow since 1999? I'm just to 1999 on the backlog and can't wait to find out by reading for another month so I decided to ask. I'm really interested in his gear. Jim _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 14:02:20 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Tough crowd/target loads... - --part1_171.1c254535.2baf5ebc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/23/2003 9:38:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, waltharper@starband.net writes: > Magpie, > for target I shoot 60 fff, for hunting I go all the way to 70 fff in my 54 > with a good tight patch > Thanks Walt, and all, for the imput. I can shoot a 2-3" group with 120gr 3F (I lied about the 140grs), at 100 yards off the bench, but not nearly as tight with 80grs 3F. I was trying to save a bit of powder with the question, but think I'll back the load to 60gr 3f and work up from there for a "target" load at the shoots. The barrel is a 42", swamped Getz, with a 1 in 66" twist, and has less than 50 balls run down it, so still spankin new. I've got a chronograph, so will see just how fast they go downrange with the light loads.... Magpie - --part1_171.1c254535.2baf5ebc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/23/2003 9:38:08 AM Pacific Standa= rd Time, waltharper@starband.net writes:

Magpie,
for target I shoot 60 fff, for hunting I go all the way to 70 fff in my 54 w= ith a good tight patch


Thanks Walt, and all, for the imput.

I can shoot a 2-3" group with 120gr 3F (I lied about the 140grs), at 100 yar= ds off the bench, but not nearly as tight with 80grs 3F. I was trying to sav= e a bit of powder with the question, but think I'll back the load to 60gr 3f= and work up from there for a "target" load at the shoots.

The barrel is a 42", swamped Getz, with a 1 in 66" twist, and has less than=20= 50 balls run down it, so still spankin new. I've got a chronograph, so will=20= see just how fast they go downrange with the light loads....

Magpie

- --part1_171.1c254535.2baf5ebc_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:28:51 +0000 From: "Sean Boushie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery I too have had that same thing happen, except it was not a canine it was a predator of the feline variety. Generally when the internals are eaten first you can assume feline and without absolutely seeing claw marks in the track it can be hard to say wolf or cat. Though I won't doubt the good sir without seeing the kill. No doubt a wolf could do the same, they all love beaver meat. I once had a beaver totally messed up, full of open wounds and scars. couldn't figure it out till 3 nights later when I caught a 48" very grey otter at the entrence to a lodge (legal in MT). He's now a very nice hat! >From: >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery >Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:13:52 -0700 (MST) > >Dear List, > I checked my first traps of the season and caught four fat beaver! >Only one was small the other three all blankets. > The first trap I checked however was a bit of a mystery. I spied >over the bank and instantly saw my first dead beaver floating in >the shallow water. Within seconds I realized that it had been >disemboweled. Dang eagle! I thought to myself. This would not be >uncommon for a golden eagle to eat on a dead exposed carcass. >Upon closer examination of the crime scene I realized a terrible >battle had taken place between this large beaver and an >unidentified canine, a very large canine! I recognized the canine >tracks as ones I have seen crossing through this ranch several >times before. This large ranch is only 40 miles from the front >range of the Rockies as the crow flies, or as the wolf runs! The >rancher told me to keep an eye out for wolves. I thought he was >just kidding but after cutting these tracks on several occasions >since last fall I was beginning to think he knew or saw something >I didn't know. I have cut wolf tracks before and know them when I >see them. He always traveled alone and was seemingly on a >mission, not meandering about like dogs do. That combined with >the remote location in close proximity to the Front Range made me >sure it was indeed a wolf kill! > The beaver also suffered a fate similar to a wild animal attack >not the random killing of a domesticated dog. He was disemboweled >cleanly with all his internal organs being eaten excepting his >small intestine. I'm sure the beaver would have been carried away >altogether had it not been held firmly in my foot hold trap. > I am not one to waste a pelt so thought I could salvage it as it >was only cleanly split open down the belly. After I removed it >from the trap and examined it's back I saw it was a total loss. >Horrendous wounds inflicted by the beast destroyed his back. >Most the wounds were on its head and front half of its body. This >beaver took his licks facing his foe and putting up a vicious >counter attack I'm sure. A live beaver is not an animal to take >lightly especially when caught in a trap. I did not see blood on >the shore but I hope Mr. Beaver got his licks in! > I don't know why the beaver sat on shore after being caught; the >trap was not tangled on anything. Perhaps the wolf came along the >instant the beaver was caught. I checked my traps very early that >day so only the owls know the real story. > In my 20 years of beaver trapping this is the first time I ever >lost one to a predator. I did not reset the trap as I know this >robber will visit it again for a second meal. If it were not >considered a crime more serious than the taking of a human life >I would have hanged the area with snares and reaped revenge upon >this four legged thief. I would have avenged the poor beaver and >given the devil dog a taste of his own medicine. > beaverboy > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:19:43 -0800 From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2F14F.A17E6200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys shootin in = them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit hot.> Magpie, Your kidding of course, aren't you? I used a 90 grain load on that = buffalo and the elk in the past in that .62 rifle and never used more = than 100 grains in my .54. That .62 rifle actually shoots best at about = 85/90 grains of 3fg but the .54 would shoot almost anything from 60/70 = grains up to 100. If you have a nice slow twist, try a grain and a half = per caliber or less for target and hunting.=20 140 grains! Wow is all I got to say. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2F14F.A17E6200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 


So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys = shootin=20 in them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit hot.>
 
Magpie,
 
Your kidding of course, aren't you? I used a 90 grain load on = that=20 buffalo and the elk in the past in that .62 rifle and never used more = than 100=20 grains in my .54.  That .62 rifle actually shoots best at about = 85/90=20 grains of 3fg but the .54 would shoot almost anything from 60/70 = grains up to=20 100. If you have a nice slow twist, try a grain and a half per caliber = or less=20 for target and hunting.
 
140 grains! Wow is all I got to say.
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
 - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2F14F.A17E6200-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:35:02 -0800 From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth bb, I was the one who mentioned using punky birch wood, that is what I use now. I suspect that any deciduous wood that has gone rotten will work. I question whether they used char cloth at all. The trick is to find out what was found in nature that will work as I know they didn't rely on char cloth if they used it much at all. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:51:58 -0600 From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth I know they didn't rely on char cloth if they used it much at all. YMOS Capt. Lahti' Why are you so certain they didn't use char cloth? As Beaverboy noted, a yard of cloth would last a long time and there is lots of cloth noted in trade lists and bought by trappers. Where did the use of char cloth come from in the present rendezvous system? Jim Jim _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:53:07 -0800 From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Jim I use tow and patches in the field, depending on what I have. Pour the barrel full of water. Warm or cold, not boiling. Push water out vent with ball of tow or patch on jag a couple times and then dry with dry tow or patch and then oil with bear greased patch or tow. I'm not sure they relied on tow for cleaning but used what ever. It need not be absorbent and I do think buffalo hair would work. Brain tan would work. Blanket material would work and it was used for shooting patches as well. YMOS Capt. Lahti'' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:55:53 -0800 From: "roger lahti" Subject: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? Just got a call from a young friend who is reading a novel. In the novel the author has a character going out with the Corps and coming back to Harpers Ferry to buy another rifle for his brother or whomever. In the story the rifle he took was a full stock 1803 Harpers Ferry and when he got back they were then being built as half stocks. Is this true? Were the Corps 1803's actually full stocks? YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 16:09:20 -0800 From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Well, no wolves or big cats on the islands of the St Joe river. We do have eagles, but didna see any this trip... swans, geese, herons, and a bazillion ducks. Rained mostly, spent most of the weekend keeping dry, or drying out cloths... glad I wore wool and not cotton. Two beavers, one miss. Last beaver was big enough to haul the trap and sinker weight (50 lbs dirt in bag) back to shore after hitting the end of the dive wire. He was waiting for us when we got there, and non too happy. It was a good thing he hauled up our trap as we may have never found that one... river rose foot and a half overnight due to the rains. Cheers from Idaho... where the sun finally came out.. Lee Newbill of North Idaho AMM# 1821 http://www.hogheavenmuzzleloaders.com http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:16:43 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? Now you did it Captain, You opened the great "did they really have half stock Harper Ferrys" can of worms. Our outfit, the L&C Honor Guard has been using half stocks for years then some scholar writes a piece about them not having them at the time. The arguement was on. It's gotten so ugly that I was glad I sent my 1803 kit back to Track. I'm waiting for my Transitional Kentucky. We know those were around in 1803. beaverboy > Just got a call from a young friend who is reading a novel. In the novel > the author has a character going out with the Corps and coming back to > Harpers Ferry to buy another rifle for his brother or whomever. In the > story the rifle he took was a full stock 1803 Harpers Ferry and when he > got back they were then being built as half stocks. > > Is this true? Were the Corps 1803's actually full stocks? > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:24:20 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > Why are you so certain they didn't use char cloth? As Beaverboy noted, a > yard of cloth would last a long time and there is lots of cloth noted > in trade lists and bought by trappers. We assume they didn't have any spare cloth after their first winter. A yard of cloth afterall could get you quite a lot in trade from certain tribes. A yard of cloth could get you the favors of a fine young maiden in some tribes, you'd find another way to start a fire. That spare cloth could be used to put out a fire! L&C's men were trading there coat buttons off of their jackets by the second winter, they certainly had no spare cloth to burn. This is why we are certain they had none to spare. bb - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 16:27:45 -0800 From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > Why are you so certain they didn't use char cloth? As Beaverboy noted, a > yard of cloth would last a long time and there is lots of cloth noted in > trade lists and bought by trappers. Jim, Bought for what purpose? To burn up? Or trade with? The latter I think. I'd be interested in seeing any references in journals or historical documents that show the use, common use of charred cloth as a fire starting aid. Where did the use of char cloth come > from in the present rendezvous system? Where did the use of many items used and accepted as appropriate in our present rendezvous system come from? Cast iron cook ware? Very hard to document any in the mountains or in the gear of mt. men but iron, copper, brass pots are common. Or candle lanterns? How about folding camp chairs and tables? Because Macmillan and Sir William Drummond Stewart had fancy trappings? Or the ever popular "Hawken" half stock percussion rifle, "The Mt. Man's Choice"? Very late in the era and more appropriate for the "49"ers than the mt. man actually. How about chrome tanned leather war shirts festooned with reservation era bead work and ermine tails? Or throwing tomahawks? I have no idea where all these 'things' came to be acceptable at modern rendezvous. Maybe cause they look old timey? I don't know. Does anyone care? Not really. If it looks old timey then it's usually ok at today's rendezvous. But alas this list is here for the discussion of "history" not make believe so we try to stick to "Actual" rather than "possible" or "if they'd a' had it, they'd a' used it". And we ask for proof. I have no proof that they used char cloth or cut up their expensive material for char cloth. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:30:32 -0600 From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper >From: "Melvin D. Swift" >To: "George Noe" >Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots >Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:17:53 -0500 > >REPLY FROM MEL SWIFT.... > THERE ARE MANY GRADES OF COPPER. SOME GRADES CONTAIN >SUCH ALLOYING ELEMENTS AS ZINC >AND LEAD. THE SAME IS EVEN MORE >TRUE OF BRASS, OR BRONZE. > I WOULD NOT USE COPPER, BRASS >OR BRONZE FOR COOKING OVER AN >OPEN FIRE. I HAVE SEEN BRASS >OUTGAS ZINC FUMES OVER AN OPEN >FIRE WHICH IS SCARY. > WHY EVEN USE ANY OF THESE METALS WHEN ONE DOES >NOT KNOW >THE ORIGIN. ALSO THE SOLDER USED >MAY CONTAIN LEAD. A LOT HAS TO DO WITH THE TEMPERATURE. HOUSE >PLUMBING >SELDOM REACHES THE TEMPERATURES FOUND IN AN OPEN >CAMP FIRE. BUT EVEN ON HOUSE PLUMBING THEY RECOMMEND THAT >YOU LET THE WATER RUN FOR ABOUT >10 TO 20 SECONDS TO FLUSH ANY >MATERIAL OUT THAT MAY HAVE GONE >INTO SOLUTION. > PRIMATIVE DOES NOT APPLY TO ME >WHEN MY HEALTH IS CONCERNED. _________________________________________________ I've been reading back log again. I wonder if TIN has any bad properties that are leached by acid. Is all tin safe? I recall cooking apple butter in a huge copper kettle when I was young (My Grandma and the whole family made it as a family event). We would throw pennies in the applebutter and they came out bright as new after cooking all day. I guess I'm all poisoned now so I better make sure I don't poison myself anymore than I have to. Anyone know about tin? Jim _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:49:31 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: feeling bad, looking good???? > And if the cast bugs you, wrap it in swaths of white cotton, ornamented > with "blood" stains and maybe some fake wooden splints. Might as well > have fun with it!! > Your very humble & most obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred This was a great response! bb - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:52:21 -0600 From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth And we ask for proof. I have no proof that they used char cloth or cut up their expensive material for char cloth. YMOS Capt. Lahti' _____________________ Did people other than mountain men use char CLOTH in that time period? Was cloth an accepted way of making fires in the settlements? I agree that cloth was a premium thing in the mountains. Since powder, lead and many other items were carefully secured why wouldn't cloth for char? I'd rather have a way to make fire than a gun in a Rocky Mountain winter. What happened to all the clothing worn out year after year? Couldn't some of that be used as char cloth? (How does wool char work anyway?) I would like to know if char cloth was there at all. A tin of char cloth can light a lot of fires and is efficient(storage space, bulk, weight, and it doesn't turn to dust easily). I have seen grass, wood, inner bark, etc. charred and used for making fires but cloth is VERY efficient in most every way (except availability in the mountains). Is there much evidence that char-wood or touch wood was preferred over cloth? I'd rather strike once and get a glow than bounce sparks off charred wood but I'll clack away and wear out my striker if it is certain that is the way it was done. Jim _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1169 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.