From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #121 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, August 7 1998 Volume 01 : Number 121 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:16:21 EDT From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches Per "The Classic Watch" by Michael Balfour, Pocket Watches were 1st developed by Abraham-Louis Brequet (1747-1823) c.1770. He designed the tourbillon escapement and also the "Tact" watch for the blind. Also in 1770, another Frenchman, Jean-Antoine Lepine devised a way to manufacture a pocket watch that was much thinner. He (Lepine) also introduced hand-setting at the back of the watch, cases with invisible hinges (so-called Hunters Cases) when closed, and internal wheels with "wolfs' teeth". In 1790, Jaquet Droz is credited with developing the 1st wrist-watch. Swiss records show that by the year 1808, there were over 3000 watchmakers in operation in the cantons of Switzerland. I am looking for reference materials regarding common usage in this country and specifically the Fur Trade, and when available, will provide it to the list. Hope this helps in the meantime. PJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:32:24 -0700 From: "TERRI A ROSTER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns UNSUSCRIBE - ---------- > From: Sickler, Louis L > To: 'Mtn Man List' > Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns > Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:33 PM > > Ho the List > > Here's a question I've had on my mind..... > > I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and rubbing in > ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ? Is white > ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or > descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want to > mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves don't > show up too well. > > Any ideas ??? > > Red Coyote ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:32:24 -0700 From: "TERRI A ROSTER" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns UNSUSCRIBE - ---------- > From: Sickler, Louis L > To: 'Mtn Man List' > Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns > Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:33 PM > > Ho the List > > Here's a question I've had on my mind..... > > I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and rubbing in > ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ? Is white > ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or > descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want to > mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves don't > show up too well. > > Any ideas ??? > > Red Coyote ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:53:01 -0600 From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins The hand game is a good one plus other game similar to this. I think of the Indian book which has lots of games in it and post it later Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:28:02 -0700 From: "TERRI A ROSTER" Subject: MtMan-List: UNSUSCRIBE UNSUSCRIBE - ---------- > From: TERRI A ROSTER > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com; 'Mtn Man List' > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns > Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 5:32 PM > > UNSUSCRIBE > > ---------- > > From: Sickler, Louis L > > To: 'Mtn Man List' > > Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns > > Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:33 PM > > > > Ho the List > > > > Here's a question I've had on my mind..... > > > > I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and rubbing > in > > ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ? Is > white > > ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or > > descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want > to > > mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves > don't > > show up too well. > > > > Any ideas ??? > > > > Red Coyote > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:08:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Northwest Company Hallo From Idaho Henry! On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Henry B. Crawford wrote: > >and a unexpected gem in the form of a 1934 Master's Thesis by a Jean > >Nielsen, titled "The Operations of British Fur Trading Companies In > >Idaho"... very cool stuff. > Say, what university was that thesis written at? (please excuse the > preposition at the end of the sentence) University of Idaho, Moscow Idaho > BTW, Lee, Nice website. It's been a while since I saw it, and It looks > different somehow. Have you made changes? You have a nice family, too. Thanks for the compliment on the family! On the website... it depends on how long since ye've dropped by Henry I've been slowly adding to it this summer when I've had time so there's always something new. Working on info for our area posts at the moment.. Kullyspel, Spokane, Salish houses etc. and trying to complete the section on Idaho's Indians circa 1800. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:30:04 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns engraving on black surfaces is not a uncommon thing--engraveing on a buffilo horn is a bit different than engraveing on a white horn--have a friend that is a master scrimshaw person---he will scratch on almost anything he can get his hands on and have seen some of his black buffilo horns that he has done and they are outstanding---he does not have a e-mail address but can be contacted at the following Kurtz Miller The Curio Gallery 82 Spring Street Eureka Springs Arkansas 72632 1-501-253-2094 suggest you give him a call and discuss what you want to do--tell him i told you to call and depending upon his mood and how busy he is he will discuss it for hrs or just give you a brief methodology of what you need to do to make it look good---I feel sure he will help you out tell him you are on the American Mountan Man chat session and that is where you got his name and address and phone number---He is Big into that kind of stuff ----even though he is not a member--- YMHOSANT =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Wed, 05 Aug 1998 14:33:41 -0600 "Sickler, Louis L" writes: >Ho the List > >Here's a question I've had on my mind..... > >I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and >rubbing in >ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ? Is >white >ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or >descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't >want to >mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves >don't >show up too well. > >Any ideas ??? > >Red Coyote > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 19:36:01 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: UNSUSCRIBE Terri Roster, To unsubscribe from this list go to: <http://www.xmission.co m/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html> and follow the directions. John... At 06:28 PM 8/5/98 -0700, you wrote: >UNSUSCRIBE > >---------- >> From: TERRI A ROSTER >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com; 'Mtn Man List' >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns >> Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 5:32 PM >>=20 >> UNSUSCRIBE >>=20 >> ---------- >> > From: Sickler, Louis L >> > To: 'Mtn Man List' >> > Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo powder horns >> > Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 1:33 PM >> >=20 >> > Ho the List >> >=20 >> > Here's a question I've had on my mind..... >> >=20 >> > I have read a lot about engraving LIGHT-COLORED powder horns and >rubbing >> in >> > ink to darken the lines. What about black buffalo powder horns ?=A0 Is >> white >> > ink period, acceptable, or what. I haven't seen any examples or >> > descriptions. I'd kind of like to try engraving my horn, but don't want >> to >> > mess it up with something out of period. Engraved lines by themselves >> don't >> > show up too well. >> >=20 >> > Any ideas ??? >> >=20 >> > Red Coyote >>=20 >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:26:33 -0500 (CDT) From: "S. Gilbert" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches, sextants and books Hello the camp, This group is so great. Thank you Angela for the suggestions and web address. An accurate timepiece is not a problem, oddly enough. My husband has an astrolabe that is a working copy of the one built by Geoffery Chaucer (of "The Canterbury Tales" fame). It is an amazing device. You take an altitude reading of the sun with one ring, move the rings to align the day in the zodiac to that value on the face and read the time on the outer ring. Brian has an accuracy of within 3 minutes using this thing. This is my own very limited understanding of how it works, so please don't quote me. I think this may be the way to include him, as he seems really intrigued by this notion. I will see about finding a sextant for his use. He also liked the idea of video taping some of the events. He suggested hiding a video camera in the case of a period box camera. He could then carry it around and set up the tripod and "photograph" the procedings. We will need to research the earliest use of cameras in the field, as his character will need to fit that time frame, if he decides to go that route. Also, a big thank you to whomever suggested "MANY TENDER TIES" as a resource. I ordered a copy and it arrived 5 days ago. I read it in several long sessions. It is a terrific book and very valuable to me. It filled in several gaps in my quest for knowledge. your humble servant, Old Hands Susan Gilbert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:49:56 -0700 From: j2hearts@juno.com (john c funk,jr) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins For games contact shineangle@aol.com. She has a number of historic games she has researched and organized for kids. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:53:09 -0700 From: j2hearts@juno.com (john c funk,jr) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass Mountain There is also (probably one of many) a Glass Mountain in Modoc Co., Ca., south of Alturas: west of Likely and east of Medicine Lake. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: 05 Aug 98 20:09:29 +0000 From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Mtn Man-List: Smoking Buffalo Sh*t I may not smoke buffler dung, but my wife and I have eaten and cooked a lot of meals using cow dung as fuel and it made no difference in taste. It makes wonderful coals and my wife would rather cook over dung than some wood she has had to use. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY LIving History Consultants---- We are not a trading company!! jbrandl wrote: >Actually a small amt was placed in some pipes before smoking. Sometimes >before a buffalo hunt >Joe > >Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery >Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 >Write for custom tanning prices >We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and >hair on robes >Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets >check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka > > > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id AF594450178; Tue, 04 Aug 1998 20:11:37 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0z3t2V-0005ci-00; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:10:55 -0600 >Received: from (Mailhost.wyoming.com) [199.190.151.2] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0z3t2S-0005cb-00; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:10:53 -0600 >Received: from [204.227.201.149] by Mailhost.wyoming.com > (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) > ID# 601-42080U15000L1500S0) with SMTP id AAA754 > for ; > Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:09:58 -0600 >X-Sender: jbrandl@mailhost.wyoming.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Mtn Man-List: Smoking Buffalo Sh*t >Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:09:58 -0600 >Message-ID: <19980805020956008.AAA754@[204.227.201.149]> >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 2035053017 >Status: U > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 21:07:03 -0700 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches, sextants and books Old Hands: There were quit a few folks at the Rocky Mt. Nationals In Elk Park UT. this summer using hand held camcorders. Not to say that all rendezvous will permit that but the idea that it can't be done at all is not correct either. One other idea you might consider would be to camouflage the video camera in one of those fancy leather bags/boxes that were popular in the 18th and 19th century, called I think cartushes or some such. Angela would know what they were called. They were used like an overnight bag or gear bag. The use of cameras in the field did not come about until the Civil War/War of Northern Aggression. Cameras would be too modern for the fur trade or earlier. Box cameras are permitted at western rendezvous but under very strict rules. Personal cameras either video or still cameras must be hidden until the picture is about to be made. I am interested in getting started in some fancier navigation skills other than simple piloting so I will be listening to this thread very closely. I am taking notes! I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' S. Gilbert wrote: > Hello the camp, > > This group is so great. Thank you Angela for the suggestions and > web address. An accurate timepiece is not a problem, oddly enough. My > husband has an astrolabe that is a working copy of the one built by > Geoffery Chaucer (of "The Canterbury Tales" fame). It is an amazing > device. You take an altitude reading of the sun with one ring, move the > rings to align the day in the zodiac to that value on the face and read > the time on the outer ring. Brian has an accuracy of within 3 minutes > using this thing. This is my own very limited understanding of how it > works, so please don't quote me. > I think this may be the way to include him, as he seems really > intrigued by this notion. I will see about finding a sextant for his use. > He also liked the idea of video taping some of the events. He > suggested hiding a video camera in the case of a period box camera. He > could then carry it around and set up the tripod and "photograph" the > procedings. We will need to research the earliest use of cameras in the > field, as his character will need to fit that time frame, if he decides to > go that route. > Also, a big thank you to whomever suggested "MANY TENDER TIES" as > a resource. I ordered a copy and it arrived 5 days ago. I read it in > several long sessions. It is a terrific book and very valuable to me. It > filled in several gaps in my quest for knowledge. > > your humble servant, > Old Hands > Susan Gilbert > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:00:28 -0600 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Northwest Company Lee, I don't know how much help I can be here; I concentrate on reading journals & such, but it sounds like you're looking for a book written by a good fur trade historian. Jim Hardee's suggestions are good ones. Some additonal comments on one of them, then my own suggestions: >"Masson, L.R. "Les Bourgeois de la Compagnie u Nord-Ouest." 2 Vol. >Antiquarian Press Ltd. NY 1960. (Although som of it is in French, there's > enough English to make it worth looking inot. Contains a lot of letters, > journals, etc.people like Alexander Henry, Joseph Frobisher, David > Thompson and the like.) Only two parts are in French--Masson's lengthy "History of the North West Company" (about 100 pages), and the journal of Francois-Victor Malhiot. If you have taken a couple of years of French, it's worth the effort to tackle Malhiot's journal with a French-English dictionary at your elbow; the tenses and sentence construction is really quite simple & straightforward. Malhiot had an excellent perspective on the fur trade, and was a keen observer. Masson was originally published in the 1890's, and so the editing is not up to modern standards. Many of the journals and letters have been re-edited and published elsewhere. For more details, e-mail me privately. This book is fairly rare (both print runs were fairly small), and if you find it, the library may not let it circulate. BUT it is really good, if you can find it! My suggestions: Mackenzie, Alexander. _The Journals and Letters of Sir Alexander Mackenzie_. W. Kaye Lamb (ed.) Cambridge University Press : London, 1970. SBN 521-01034-9. - --Should be fairly readily available. Mackenzie was a NWC wintering partner. If you're short on time, just read Mackenzie's "General History of the Fur Trade" in this book, and save the actual journals and letters for dessert later. First published about 1802. Ross, Eric. _Beyond the River and the Bay : Some Observations on the state of the Canadian Northwest in 1811..._ University of Toronto Press : Toronto, 1970. ISBN 0-8020-6188-5. - --I understand this has been recently reprinted. It's packed full of information on the fur trade and Western Canada as it was in 1811, written by a man who loves the subject, and it's a very easy read. It is vitally important to read the preface to this book first, or you will be very confused by it! (I'm too tired right now to explain the issue clearly...) Parker, James. _Emporium of the North : Fort Chipewyan and the Fur Trade to 1835_. Alberta Culture and Multiculturalism, Canadian Plains Research Center : 1987. ISBN 0-88977-0441. - --The North West Company is revealed through an all-around "case study" of its vitally-important Athabasca headquarters, starting with when Peter Pond first opened the area to trade in 1788. Lots of economic details, as well as a good introduction to the fur trade in general, and the NWC in particular. As for journals, if you could read only one, I highly recommend : Harmon, Daniel Williams. _Sixteen Years in the Indian Country : The Journal of Daniel Williams Harmon, 1800-1816_. W. Kaye Lamb (ed.) Macmillan : Toronto, 1957. - --Harmon worked across the whole of the NWC's territory, from Winnipeg to Fort St. James, B.C., and his journal of sixteen years covers a wealth of information not contained in the journals of most other NWC fur traders. Should be fairly readily available. Finally, IF you can find it (again, only a relatively small number were printed), I highly recommend: Henry, Alexander (the Younger). _The Journal of Alexander Henry the Younger 1799-1814._ Barry Gough, ed. The Champlain Society/University of Toronto Press : Toronto, 1988. ISBN 0-9693425-0-0. - --I actually haven't read this edition completely, but it seems to be an improvement on Elliott Coues' excellent edition. Henry, like Harmon, was in the NWC for a long time, and wrote very candidly and in great detail about his experiences. An great book, in two volumes, and well worth the time & effort to read. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 21:45:04 -0700 From: Gail C Martini-Peterson Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #120 Concerning the smoking of buffalo dung: I cannot imagine it. What would be the point? Smoking transfers chemicals to the smoker through the smoke. I doubt this was done by anyone. This is just my opinion, not based on any historical fact. Ask your friend why anyone would smoke dung. He probably never looked at it that way. Gail Martini-Peterson gcmartin@aa.net Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 01:14:06 -0400 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Preserving a Snake Skin How did the Camp out go...give me all the dirty gossip and the clean..... Will you be at Cody.???? Linda Holley Joe Brandl wrote: > Phil, > One of the best means of tanning a snake skin is by using glyerin, a hand > softner. I usually get the kind with rose water in it as it makes the skin > smell better. Use a pair of small scissors and cut the snake up the belly, > be careful around the anus and on down the tail. pull the skin slowly off > from the head to the tail. Once the skin is off, scrape any fat and > conective tissure from flesh side. I like to use a paper stapler to staple > the skin flesh side up to a pine board. Allow the skin to dry first than > pour some glyerin on the skin and rub in. put on about 2 or 3 coats. allow > each coat to dry, Use a razor to cut the skin from the staples. or you can > pull all those things. > Joe > > Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery > Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 > Write for custom tanning prices > We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and > hair on robes > Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets > check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 03:59:04 EDT From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: games for the youngins the name "j' was trying to get you to is SHINEANGEL, with an EL at the end, not SHINEANGLE. she has run the kids games at many a rendezvous, and does a terrific job. PJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 08:03:47 -0500 From: "Larry R. Weisz" Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Thinking of you] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------20B150ACAFC080D3CCCA90FE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --------------20B150ACAFC080D3CCCA90FE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from MBN (209.100.82.3) by owc.net with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:36:55 -0500 Received: from weisz - 209.100.82.169 by rsg.org with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:47:08 -0500 From: "weisz" To: Subject: Thinking of you Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:37:49 -0500 Message-ID: <01bdc137$05264c80$a95264d1@weisz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Return-Path: weisz@rsg.org - -----Original Message----- From: Wynn96@aol.com To: Weisz@rsg.org Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 5:06 PM Subject: hi >An Angel to Watch Over You > > Oooo > Some people ( ) > come into our lives ) / > and quickly go. . (_/ > > oooO Some people > ( ) become friends > \ ( and stay a while. . . > \_) > > leaving beautiful Oooo > footprints on our ( ) > hearts . . . ) / > (_/ > > oooO and we are > ( ) never > \ ( quite the same > \_) because we have > made a good friend! > > > Yesterday is history. > Tomorrow a mystery. > Today is a gift. > That's why it's called the present! > > > > (\ /) TAKE THIS LITTLE ANGEL > ( \ ___ / ) AND KEEP HER CLOSE TO YOU > ( \ ( ) / ) SHE IS YOUR GUARDIAN ANGEL > ( /< >\ ) SENT TO WATCH OVER YOU! > (/ \/ \) > / \ > / \ > ( _______ ) > >This is a special guardian angel . . . Pass this on to 5 people within >the hour of receiving her . . . and make a wish. If you have passed her >on, your wish will be granted and she will watch over you forever. - --------------20B150ACAFC080D3CCCA90FE-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:59:16 -0600 From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #120 the old Indian people did alot of things we don't always understand. Warrior societies were noted for doing strange things. I will go back and document some of the notes from Ewers, Hassrick, Bowers and others. Remember that many of the old people thought power came to them through objects and animals by association. What we find strange and even gross, was not to them. That is just the way it way. I post information as I find it again in my notes. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 09:46:56 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches, sextants and books >Cameras would be too modern for the fur trade or earlier. Point of clarification. Photography (invented in 1839) would indeed be too modern for the *Rendezvous era* of the fur trade, but they could be permitted in the 1850s phase of the fur trade, having been well improved by that time. Bear in mind that only the Rendezvous ended in 1840, not the fur trade proper. Consider that the fur business was still going on at Fort Union, and other fur trading posts well into the '50s. I realize that semantics can be nitpicky, but we must keep in mind that there was still a fur trade after 1840. The rendezvous was replaced in 1840 by the revitalized trading post system, but the fur trade was not dead by a long shot. For the proprietors of Bent's Fort, built strictly for the purpose of trading furs and buffalo robes, the year 1840 came and went without much notice and little if any effect on the business there. In fact, one of their hottest years, economically was 1841, the year following the end of the rendezvous. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:53:56 -0600 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Watches A brief response to the questions regarding watches. Yes, chronometers were available by 1804; Lewis & Clark's were made by Arnoldi in London, and cost, if I recall correctly, about 25 pounds. The difference between chronometers & watches was, and is, their accuracy, rather than the presence of a second hand. David Thompson & Peter Fidler did not use chronometers; they used the cheaper "common watches" made by a London watchmaker called Joseph Jolly. In July 1794, David Thompson received a 'second & Stop Watch with 2 Case Val[ue] 12 pounds 12 shillings'; note that although this watch apparently had a second hand, it was _not_ a chronometer. He had two of these when he descended the Columbia River in 1811, and apparently never did buy a chronometer. Watches were fairly common among the bourgeois of the North West Company and officers of the HBC; watches being ordered from London & sent back to London for repairs come up fairly frequently in HBC records for the 1790-1810 period. I've got documentation for all this, but no time to pull it out & post it today--maybe in a week or two. In January, I posted a message from my husband about watches & chronometers, it should be in Dean's archives. In haste, Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:59:57 -0700 From: Gary Bell Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks! Angela Gottfred, I'm sure I speak for just about everybody on this list when I extend a particular thanks for your wonderful efforts to keep us informed and honest. I particularly appreciate your tremendous enthusiasm for our shared fields of interest and the informed scholar's view you bring us. If the members of this list were indebted according to the quantity and value of the information provided here, we would all owe you (and several others too) big time. I have no intention of singling out only one contributor to diminish the thanks to any other. I want to particularly invite my fellow lurkers and small contributors to give voice to some of their favorites. I can immediately think of several folks here, not always academic by any means, who have given me their special insights into history, gunsmithing and shooting, blacksmithing, woods lore, cooking (historical and contemporary), native american culture, costuming, tanning, beads, etc., etc., etc., in short all the topics that curiosity discovers in our chosen field of interest. So, thanks Angela, and I hope that this message spurs a prairie fire of others to share their gratitude for you and the other special contributors that make this list and this hobby so enlightening and rewarding. Gary Bell, aka Heron Angela Gottfred wrote: > A brief response to the questions regarding watches. Yes, chronometers were > available by 1804; Lewis & Clark's were made by Arnoldi in London, and cost, > if I recall correctly, about 25 pounds. The difference between chronometers > & watches was, and is, their accuracy, rather than the presence of a second > hand. David Thompson & Peter Fidler did not use chronometers; they used the > cheaper "common watches" made by a London watchmaker called Joseph Jolly. In > July 1794, David Thompson received a 'second & Stop Watch with 2 Case > Val[ue] 12 pounds 12 shillings'; note that although this watch apparently > had a second hand, it was _not_ a chronometer. He had two of these when he > descended the Columbia River in 1811, and apparently never did buy a > chronometer. Watches were fairly common among the bourgeois of the North > West Company and officers of the HBC; watches being ordered from London & > sent back to London for repairs come up fairly frequently in HBC records for > the 1790-1810 period. I've got documentation for all this, but no time to > pull it out & post it today--maybe in a week or two. In January, I posted a > message from my husband about watches & chronometers, it should be in Dean's > archives. > > In haste, > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 09:21:37 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list) John Colter's "run" after being captured by Indians is >another good story. Colter's story may not have happened as he told it. The version we all know was his story as told to Thomas James. James then retold and published the tale. Given the circumstances, it may be only half truth. The Blackfeet have their own version, that Colter was let go as a living no trespassing sign, in hopes that it would keep other trappers out of their territory. Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could have easily killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds. They stripped Colter and sent him on his way to carry the "message," figuring that by the time he reached the settlements he would be a (barely) living warning sign. Colter had plenty of time to concoct a face-saving story that would make him seem more heroic, especially since he had to be the one to explain why his partner was dead. Logic dictates that the Blackfeet version would be the more believable of the two, given that one naked man running from several Blackfeet warriors sworn to kill him is not likely to survive to tell the story, unless he was allowed to escape. I'd be inclined to believe the Blackfoot version, and that the story we are all familiar with is a product of Colter's own imagination. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #121 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.