From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #122 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, August 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 122 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:13:37 -0500 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list) Couldn't the story told by the Blackfeet be equally face saving? A naked white man successfully making his escape from armed Blackfoot warriors would have been extremely embarrassing. Looks like one or other story is the product of a nineteenth century spin doctor. (...and all this time I thought you-know-who invented that job description). Mountaineers were certainly not above spinning yarns or enhancing the truth to make themselves look more heroic. Jim Beckwourth's stories are commnly held to be exaggerated at best, if not outright lies. James Ohio Pattie's book is so riddled with inconsistencies that at least one entire book is devoted to debunking his version of his exploits. I had a copy and have lost it and can't remember the its title. Anybody recall the name? Lanney Ratcliff - -----Original Message----- From: Henry B. Crawford To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 9:38 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list) > John Colter's "run" after being captured by Indians is >>another good story. > >Colter's story may not have happened as he told it. The version we all >know was his story as told to Thomas James. James then retold and >published the tale. Given the circumstances, it may be only half truth. > >The Blackfeet have their own version, that Colter was let go as a living >no trespassing sign, in hopes that it would keep other trappers out of >their territory. Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could have easily >killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to >others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds. They >stripped Colter and sent him on his way to carry the "message," figuring >that by the time he reached the settlements he would be a (barely) living >warning sign. Colter had plenty of time to concoct a face-saving story >that would make him seem more heroic, especially since he had to be the one >to explain why his partner was dead. Logic dictates that the Blackfeet >version would be the more believable of the two, given that one naked man >running from several Blackfeet warriors sworn to kill him is not likely to >survive to tell the story, unless he was allowed to escape. > >I'd be inclined to believe the Blackfoot version, and that the story we are >all familiar with is a product of Colter's own imagination. > >Cheers, >HBC > >***************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Curator of History >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University >806/742-2442 Box 43191 >FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:23:18 -0600 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thanks! Thank you for the kind words, guys; I'm glad I'm able to help. Everyone on this list has different skills; I love book research, but there's tons of stuff I don't know. I rely on you folks to help fill in the many, many big holes in my practical knowledge. I think that thanks are also due to John Kramer, who has used his own research to spend a lot of time answering a host of questions about woodwork & finishing "back then", questions I didn't even know enough to ask! And Henry Crawford (HBC) has also been quite generous with his time and experience. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:32:40 EDT From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list) In a message dated 8/7/98 9:39:15 AM US Eastern Standard Time, Henry writes: << -------(stuff deleted)--------Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could have easily killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds.-------(stuff deleted)-------- >> This could very well be the case and I wouldn't even begin to try and figure out what really happened or even try to argue the point. Something to consider though is that human nature is such that when we are outdone at something, we start to concoct all "the reasons why." How many folks ever lost a race and then said "Well, I was just getting over a sprained ankle" or "well, I felt sorry for him and let him win" Something to consider. Lon gshot ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:51:13 EDT From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list) What a great thing this list is. I am at the moment preparing a talk about the Mountain Men. As Crawford says the story may be apocryphal, but I had not been able to find an alternate version. Now I can add this to my story. Thank you very much. << Colter's story may not have happened as he told it. The version we all know was his story as told to Thomas James. James then retold and published the tale. Given the circumstances, it may be only half truth. The Blackfeet have their own version, >>Henry B. Crawford Tom Laidlaw Tales of the Oregon Trail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:22:04 -0600 (MDT) From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" > > John Colter's "run" after being captured by Indians is > >another good story. > > Colter's story may not have happened as he told it. The version we all > know was his story as told to Thomas James. James then retold and > published the tale. Given the circumstances, it may be only half truth. > Colter also told his story to Bradbury and Thomas. See http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/colter.html > The Blackfeet have their own version, that Colter was let go as a living > no trespassing sign, in hopes that it would keep other trappers out of > their territory. Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could have easily > killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to > others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds. Interesting - where did you see that? Did someone write down the Blackfoot side of the story at some point? It would be great to find a historical source telling the Blackfoot's perspective on some of their encounters with the Mountain Men. - -Dean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:46:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" > Did someone write down the > Blackfoot side of the story at some point? It would be great to find a > historical source telling the Blackfoot's perspective on some of their > encounters with the Mountain Men. I have my doubts about any contempory blackfoot accounts of encounters with mountain men. They basically killed trappers on sight which was great sport to them. You could send the message i.e. stay off our turf, just as effectively by killing anyone you caught trespassing and it was a lot more fun. I have read many, many Indian accounts of the Custer battle most of which were collected on of before the 10th anniversary of the fight and while they agree on many points the accounts themselves present a lot of problems. The quality of the interpreters was probably the biggest factor. In Colter's time I don't think there were any white men who had marriend into the Blackfoot, lived with them, knew their language, and could translate for them. Sign language only goes so far. I may be wrong here but as I recall the Blackfoot remained a real problem until 1838 when they were pretty much descimated by smallpox. Like Dean, I would like to find out the source of the Indian account mentioned previously. Dennis _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 14:09:30 -0700 From: Vic Barkin Subject: MtMan-List: Re: James Ohio Pattie's book James Ohio Pattie's book is so >riddled with inconsistencies that at least one entire book is devoted to >debunking his version of his exploits. I had a copy and have lost it and >can't remember the its title. Anybody recall the name? >Lanney Ratcliff I believe it was the West of James Ohio Patty or something like that. I once took both Patties Narratives and the other out of the library at the same time and read them chapter by chapter together. Very interesting reading that way. I highly reccommend doing so if you have access to both books Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party "Aux aliments du pays!" Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 19:15:50 EDT From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" (aka My reason for being on this list) I think it could make the story more exciting to tell the other side also. I can't help but imagine the Blackfeet saying: "We'll chase him toward the river. He'll probably get under that big raft of logs that always collects down there..." << << -------(stuff deleted)--------Blackfeet oral tradition says that they could have easily killed him and been done with him, but they wanted to send a warning to others who might have had designs on Blackfeet trapping grounds.-------(stuff deleted)-------- >> This could very well be the case and I wouldn't even begin to try and figure out what really happened or even try to argue the point. >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 20:46:16 -0600 From: "Ron" Subject: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller -the book Hello the list! Through searching the internet, I located several copies of this book (The West of Alfred Jacob Miller) by Marvin C Ross,1951 & 1968. Unfortunately, they are out of my price range,$105-$255. If anyone on the list might be interested in purchasing a copy, contact me offlist, and I will forward the information to them. YMOS, Ron Chamberlain P.S. I'm NOT associated with the bookstore that located these books. Email ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 20:33:39 -0700 From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller -the book Hey Ron: I got a book titled "Alfred Jacob Miller: Artist on the Oregon Trail" edited by Ron Tyler. This book is 8 1/2"x11 over 400 pages. I quote from the cover sheet: "Although Miller's paintings have been known for a number of years, this is the first study of his entire career, spanning his earliest painting in Baltimore, his two years of study in Paris and Rome, his Western trip, his visit to Scotland, and his later career in Baltimore." This book was done in conjunction with an exhibition that traveled to the Walters Art Gallery in Baltimore, the Amon Carter Museum in Fort Worth, Texas and the Buffalo Bill Historic Center in Cody, Wyoming all in 1981-82. I got the book directly from the Amon Carter Museum in Texas, it cost about $40.00 can you believe it!! Call'em they may still have some left. Gail Carbiener - -----Original Message----- From: Ron To: MtMan-list Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 9:35 PM Subject: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller -the book >Hello the list! > >Through searching the internet, I located several copies of this book (The >West of Alfred Jacob Miller) by Marvin C Ross,1951 & 1968. Unfortunately, >they are out of my price range,$105-$255. If anyone on the list might be >interested in purchasing a copy, contact me offlist, and I will forward the >information to them. > >YMOS, >Ron Chamberlain > >P.S. I'm NOT associated with the bookstore that located these books. > > > >Email ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 07:48:45 -0500 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: James Ohio Pattie's book That title rings a bell. That may well be it. The book makes for very interesting reading as it contradicts nearly all of Pattie's stories, one by one. It asserts that Pattie either was often not where he said he was, ( by geographic impossibility or multiple conflicting information from trusted journals, etc) or, if he was around, that he inserted himself into the exploits of others and gave himself a heroic role in the episode described by them. However, he and his father did, indeed, travel extensively in the west, becoming mountaineers along the way. His father died before Pattie returned home (to Missouri, if memory serves). Pattie borrowed money for a ship passage from Mexico and met a newspaper reporter to whom he told his story for money. Look for the book. The author makes a compelling case for doubting virtually everything Pattie said in his book. If I run across my copy I will post the title. Lanney Ratcliff - -----Original Message----- From: Vic Barkin To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 11:34 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Re: James Ohio Pattie's book > James Ohio Pattie's book is so >>riddled with inconsistencies that at least one entire book is devoted to >>debunking his version of his exploits. I had a copy and have lost it and >>can't remember the its title. Anybody recall the name? >>Lanney Ratcliff > > >I believe it was the West of James Ohio Patty or something like that. I >once took both Patties Narratives and the other out of the library at the >same time and read them chapter by chapter together. Very interesting >reading that way. I highly reccommend doing so if you have access to both >books > >Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin > >AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party >"Aux aliments du pays!" > >Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona >Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 09:01:35 -0500 From: "Larry R. Weisz" Subject: MtMan-List: I apologize for sending the chain letter to the members of this list I apologize for sending the chain letter to the members of this list it was a accident I hit the wrong line in my phone book. I am sorry for any inconvenience this caused anyone. I really enjoy the forum and would not want to displease anyone. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:07:38 -0600 From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: Colter Ok now, I have the "real" story, You see I watched a Disney movie about this and since they "always" protray the truth....... Johnny Colter, He liked to be called Johnny or JC for short, something his granny started, got caught by the Blackfoot and they made fun of him by calling him names like whitey, dog face and so on. Anyway, being the nice folks that they were, they only made him strip to his underwere (modesty was in then). Thinking a foot race might be sporty, the big chief gave him a head start to the river. Johnny being a former Olympian for the US, ran like a rabbit and soon out distanced all the those nasty Blackfoot. Once he made it to the river, he swan over to a large beaver lodge, went up the hole and crawled in with Chucky Beaver and his family. Now Chucky recognized Johnny as a trapper even without his clothes. Chucky wasn't too happy to have Johnny in his lodge. Johnny pleaded with the whole beaver family not to give away his hiding spot. Chucky made him promise never to hurt another animal again. Johnny agreed readily. Meanwhile the those bad Blackfoot were looking all over for Johnny. When evening came, they went home as they did not like to be out after dark without any candles to see by. Someone could get hurt by falling down or running into a low branch. Johnny stayed with the beaver for a couple of days, just swimming the the little ones and helping them with the big dam project. Johnny didn't have the teeth to help much with the wood sawing, but he could pack some big logs and carrying mud in his mouth wasn't too bad after he acquired a taste for it. Soon it was time to go. Johnny bid Chucky beaver and his fine family adios and headed downstream to the Yellowstone river and on to the Missouri. It was a long swim and hike, but he was in shape. Word had spread to all the forest animals that Johnny was a friend to all animals. They helped him find food to eat and to use bark for clothing. When it was cold at night, the bears would bed down beside him to keep him warm. When he lost his way, the ravens showed him the way. He finally reached the Missouri and found some other trappers building a fort. He told them all about his experiences with the Blackfoot and the forest animals. They laughed at him for a long time. But Johnny persisted. Finally the leader of the Fort, Manual, gave Johnny some new clothes and a job. He told him to go to the Crows on the Stinking Water and convince them to come and trade at the new fort. Johnny thought this was a neat job, so he went. Well, as the story goes on, Johnny completed his job very well and returned to the fort. He was a bit discouraged and decided that he would go back east and become a farmer and just grow crops for the animals. Johnny died some years later and since then many folks have twisted his story around and made him appear to be a nasty trapper who hurt animals and wore leather clothes. but we know the real story! Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 13:30:41 -0700 From: "The Windhams" Subject: MtMan-List: Bison Meat Hello camp ! I've seen a couple people asking about Bison meat and where to get it. I've found a local shop here in Calif. that does ship it and other forms of meat all over the country . They have a web page , The URL is: www.avwinery.com . I'm not involved just thought I'd put it out there for any one with an intrest. Rick aka blackhawk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 20:17:38 -0700 From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail Hello all: I'm told by reading the books that the beaver tail is a delicacy, but the balance of the meat is not preferred if deer, elk, bear, etc. are available. Can someone tell me how was/is the tail prepared? Gail Carbiener ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 10:04:30 EDT From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail > I'm told by reading the books that the beaver tail is a delicacy, >but >the balance of the meat is not preferred if deer, elk, bear, etc. are >available. > Can someone tell me how was/is the tail prepared? > >Gail Carbiener I've only gone on one rendezvous (I have no transportation so need I say more?) but that rendezvous was truly memorable! I did have what I think was called beaver tail stew....ohhhhh it was delicious! However I didn't remember how it was made. Iron Burner, did you remember how it was made? Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 07:03:53 -0700 From: Longtrail Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail >Hello all: > > I'm told by reading the books that the beaver tail is a delicacy, but >the balance of the meat is not preferred if deer, elk, bear, etc. are >available. > Can someone tell me how was/is the tail prepared? > >Gail Carbiener I have cooked it by skinning it and skewering it on a stick, then proping it up near a fire close enough to cook it. It is very greasy, sort of like bacon so I don't think one would want to make an entire meal out of it. I have heard of oldtimers here in central Montana having in the past been served beaver tail in beans. As faras the rest of the meat, I found it to be tasty. Cooked in stews. Last winter while skinning a couple beaver I kept the hind quarters aside but after an hour or two of skinning and smelling the animal I was no longer in the mood to eat it. Longtrail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 09:03:18 -0700 From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Tail Gail Carbiener wrote: > > beaver tail is a delicacy, ---- how was/is the tail prepared? My experience with beaver tail is very slim, simply put, I wouldn't eat any. It looked to me like it was mostly fat and not heart safe for an old coot with a bad ticker. Now days we eat the lean, in those days they prefered the lard, in fact they had to have it for energy. DN ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 19:56:15 +0000 From: David & Evelyn Mullen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colter's "run" Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > > I had a copy and have lost it and > can't remember the its title. Anybody recall the name? The name of the book is _James Patties West: The Dream and the Reality_ By Richard Batman. Also published under the title _American Ecclesiastes: The Stories of James Pattie_. - -- David Mullen 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs, NM 87025 505.829.3212 email:dmullen@jemez.com ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #122 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.