From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #813 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, June 8 2001 Volume 01 : Number 813 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       MtMan-List: [mlml] Segars -       Re: MtMan-List: Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Shovels -       MtMan-List: shovel, period -       Re: MtMan-List: shovel, period -       Re: MtMan-List: shovel, period -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       MtMan-List: Re: Used Clothes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:15:13 -0700 From: Kierst Family Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels >Hello the list, > >I've been hard at work getting a correct outfit together for late 1830's >trapper. My next project is a shovel or other correct digging implement and >as usual I have a couple of questions. First, are there any period accounts >of a trappers using/carrying shovels? I've seen accounts of digging caches >and such but I haven't seen any reference to what they dug with. Second, >since I will still need something for the drop and parks, does anybody have >a description or a picture of a period shovel or whatever they used? > >Thanks, >Tim > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html About your qestion wheather or not trappers carried/used shovels. Jacob Miller drew a picture of 2 trappers digging a cache. They're kinna hard to see, Miller was probly more interested in the view then the trappers. They're down in the left hand bottom corner. One of them has a pick ready to strike. If they had picks, how much you wanna bet they had shovels. Dirty Shirt - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:29:36 -0600 From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: MtMan-List: [mlml] Segars We recently had a discussion on one of the lists about the authenticity of cigars or segars. Red Dog (Mitch Post) was over tonight with a whole bunch of original newspapers from 1802-1804. They were mostly Boston papers with a few from Philadelphia. There numerous ads for segars and in very large quantities. They were listed as Spanish or Havana segars and in one instance it advertised copies of Havana segars as good as the original. Papers list "tons" of other interesting items for sale, i.e. fabrics, leather, shoes, hats, spices, food stuffs, liquors, wines, lumber, horses, houses, etc. Then there are the real estate ads, bankruapcies, legal notices, jobs, runaways, foriegn & domestic news, lots of poems, shipping notices, and other items of interest. Mitch will also have some of these papers for sale. He also has a few papers from 1840-1846 also. We are going through them as quickly as possible. You can contact Mitch off list at: hiparoo@yahoo.com. We'll retype a few interesting ones in the next few weeks. YMOS Ghosting Wolf - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 01:31:26 EDT From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels - --part1_67.1530060a.2851bd2e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John This is just a thought, but sometimes what is mentioned as a lack of having at one time is as good saying it was there at other times when it should be mentioned. What I'm getting at in Ferris Life in the Rocky Mountains. He goes in to detail on how a Cache was made except for what tools were used to dig it. Beings the tools used were common? Yet later on he talks about having to dig a grave for Frasier who was killed by Black feet. In the afternoon we dug his grave with an axe and frying pan, the only implements we had that could be employed to advantage in this melancholy task. Wouldn't this suggest that the ax and fry pan were uncommon digging tools? I know if I had to dig a Cache with these tools I would write about it. Something to think about. Just some Crazy thoughts From the Cyot - --part1_67.1530060a.2851bd2e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John
This is just a thought, but sometimes what is mentioned as a lack of having
at one time is as good saying it was there at other times when it should be
mentioned.

What I'm getting at in Ferris Life in the Rocky Mountains. He goes in to
detail on how a Cache was made except for what tools were used to dig it.
Beings the tools used were common? Yet later on he talks about having to dig
a grave for Frasier who was killed by Black feet.
In the afternoon we dug his grave with an axe and frying pan, the only
implements we had that could be employed to advantage in this melancholy task.
 Wouldn't this suggest that the ax and fry pan were uncommon digging tools?
I know if I had to dig a Cache with these tools I would write about it.
Something to think about.
Just some Crazy thoughts
From the Cyot - --part1_67.1530060a.2851bd2e_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 00:46:37 -0500 From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels On Thu, 07 Jun 2001 17:52:19 -0500 John Kramer writes: > Damn; I hate these questions. > I have been digging around since this question came up and can find > no listings for shovels or spades in trade lists, supply lists, > equipment inventories or blacksmith journals of the period in the region. > Lots of iron was traded and transported so the making of shovels wasn't > impossible, but, to date I haven't found any listings for same. One of my favorite books on the Fur Trade Era is "This Reckless Breed of Men-The Trappers and Fur Traders of the Southwest" by Robert Glass Cleland. Here is an excerpt from pages 136-137 of the 1963 edition: "Many important merchant of New Orleans and the Atlantic coast consigned their shipments for the West and the Santa Fe trade to St. Louis houses such as Chouteau, Pratte & Company. Much of the goods came up the Mississippi from New Orleans or down the Ohio from Pittsburgh and Louisville. The cargoes, extraordinarily mixed and varied, included: .......files,.....spades,......shovels,.......scythes,...saws......." The reference for these items and others is from the bills of lading and receipts of Henry P. Chouteau in the A. Chouteau Collection, Missouri Historical Society MSS. Beins Chouteau was involved in the RMFT, is it reasonable to assume some of these shovels made it to Rendezvous? Victoria - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 07:01:54 -0700 From: "John Funk" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels J.J.Astor's inventory of tools and blacksmithing equipment, 1812-1813 lists, among other items: "4 Spades, used 1.12 1/2 (@) 4.50" - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 08:11:24 -0700 From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C0EFF2.9BBF3F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy, I lke my shovel from Arrowhead Forge. Too heavy to pack in without = a horse, however. Dave Conte makes a small shovel, an "entrencing tool" = really, that I bring along. Seen it? Don't know how "period" it is but = it is hand forged. Larry Huber ----- Original Message -----=20 From: GazeingCyot@cs.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 10:05 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels The Shovel that=20 Capt. Lahti' and Tom are talk about is the one I use and for=20 the money can't be beat. I have two of them one I have left the = short=20 handle on for horse trips when not using a pack horse. (it ties = behind the=20 saddle nicely) the other I have put a longer T handle on. (for = packing and=20 real digging) =20 The ones from Arrow Forge are not as good from what I've seen of them. = They=20 have a tendency to bend at the blade. One of the members of our party = had one=20 and while digging Camas it dam near folded over on him. He has since = replaced=20 it with one of the Swiss Army Shovels. For a lot less money and they = look=20 just as good.=20 my two cents.=20 Crazy Cyot=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C0EFF2.9BBF3F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Crazy,
    I lke my shovel from = Arrowhead=20 Forge.  Too heavy to pack in without a horse, however.  Dave = Conte=20 makes a small shovel, an "entrencing tool" really, that I bring = along. =20 Seen it?  Don't know how "period" it is but it is hand = forged.
 
Larry Huber
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 = 10:05=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period = Shovels

The Shovel = that=20 Capt. Lahti' and Tom are talk about is the one I use and = for=20
the money can't be beat. I have two of them one I have left the = short=20
handle on for horse trips when not using a pack horse. (it ties = behind=20 the
saddle nicely) the other I have put a longer T handle on. = (for=20 packing and
real digging)  

The ones from Arrow=20 Forge are not as good from what I've seen of them. They
have a = tendency to=20 bend at the blade. One of the members of our party had one
and = while=20 digging Camas it dam near folded over on him. He has since replaced =
it=20 with one of the Swiss Army Shovels. For a lot less money and they look =
just as good.
my two cents.
Crazy Cyot



- ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C0EFF2.9BBF3F20-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 08:16:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels - --- John Kramer wrote: > > I have done extensive research into American and > European tools and cannot > unequivocally state: "They were used." They were > available without John Mcknight obviously found use for them. With the numerous references to caching goods, how do you propose one would do so without a shovel? > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:28:22 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels Crazy, I would to but try as we may we don't live back then and few wrote of their exploits. My point is if shovels were common why don't we find them commonly listed? So far 6 have been identified by the contributors to this list, not much for 20 years of trapping furry gold. John... At 01:31 AM 6/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >John >This is just a thought, but sometimes what is mentioned as a lack of having >at one time is as good saying it was there at other times when it should be >mentioned. > >What I'm getting at in Ferris Life in the Rocky Mountains. He goes in to >detail on how a Cache was made except for what tools were used to dig it. >Beings the tools used were common? Yet later on he talks about having to dig >a grave for Frasier who was killed by Black feet. >In the afternoon we dug his grave with an axe and frying pan, the only >implements we had that could be employed to advantage in this melancholy >task. > Wouldn't this suggest that the ax and fry pan were uncommon digging tools? >I know if I had to dig a Cache with these tools I would write about it. >Something to think about. >Just some Crazy thoughts > From the Cyot Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:29:11 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Where are the listings of inventories? John... At 12:46 AM 6/8/01 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 07 Jun 2001 17:52:19 -0500 John Kramer >writes: > > Damn; I hate these questions. > > > I have been digging around since this question came up and can find > > no listings for shovels or spades in trade lists, supply lists, > > equipment inventories or blacksmith journals of the period in the >region. > > Lots of iron was traded and transported so the making of shovels wasn= 't > > > impossible, but, to date I haven't found any listings for same. > > One of my favorite books on the Fur Trade Era is "This Reckless > Breed of Men-The Trappers and Fur Traders of the Southwest" > by Robert Glass Cleland. > > Here is an excerpt from pages 136-137 of the 1963 edition: > > "Many important merchant of New Orleans and the Atlantic > coast consigned their shipments for the West and the Santa > Fe trade to St. Louis houses such as Chouteau, Pratte & > Company. Much of the goods came up the Mississippi from > New Orleans or down the Ohio from Pittsburgh and Louisville. > The cargoes, extraordinarily mixed and varied, included: > > >.......files,.....spades,......shovels,.......scythes,...saws......." > > The reference for these items and others is from the > bills of lading and receipts of Henry P. Chouteau in the > A. Chouteau Collection, Missouri Historical Society MSS. > > Beins Chouteau was involved in the RMFT, is it > reasonable to assume some of these shovels > made it to Rendezvous? > > Victoria > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:29:47 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels This makes 6. At 07:01 AM 6/8/01 -0700, you wrote: >J.J.Astor's inventory of tools and blacksmithing equipment, 1812-1813 lists, >among other items: >"4 Spades, used 1.12 1/2 (@) 4.50" > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:31:27 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels I have a fry pan you could dig a pretty good cache with. A digging stick would do. A large knife could suffice. John... At 08:16 AM 6/8/01 -0700, you wrote: >--- John Kramer wrote: > > > > > I have done extensive research into American and > > European tools and cannot > > unequivocally state: "They were used." They were > > available without > >John Mcknight obviously found use for them. >With the numerous references to caching goods, how do >you propose one would do so without a shovel? > > hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:33:53 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Millers sketches or painting. Too much of Miller was done later in studio and numerous later "interpretations" have been identified. Are there listings for picks? John... At 09:15 PM 6/7/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Hello the list, > > > >I've been hard at work getting a correct outfit together for late 1830's > >trapper. My next project is a shovel or other correct digging implement and > >as usual I have a couple of questions. First, are there any period accounts > >of a trappers using/carrying shovels? I've seen accounts of digging caches > >and such but I haven't seen any reference to what they dug with. Second, > >since I will still need something for the drop and parks, does anybody have > >a description or a picture of a period shovel or whatever they used? > > > >Thanks, > >Tim > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >About your qestion wheather or not trappers carried/used shovels. Jacob >Miller drew a picture of 2 trappers digging a cache. They're kinna hard to >see, Miller was probly more interested in the view then the trappers. >They're down in the left hand bottom corner. One of them has a pick ready >to strike. If they had picks, how much you wanna bet they had shovels. >Dirty Shirt > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 13:00:53 EDT From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels - --part1_110.ba272c.28525ec5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John you said > I have a fry pan you could dig a pretty good cache with. A digging stick > would do. A large knife could suffice. I can tell it has been a while since you have done much digging John. We are talking about a hole two feet in diameter carried down to a depth of three feet, when it is gradually enlarged, and depend until it becomes sufficiently capacious to contain whatever is destined to be stored in it. This is how Ferris describes how a Cache was made. This hole at a minimum would be six feet deep. From the lists of things that were put in some of these Caches they were much deeper then that. All done with a fry pan and not written about?? Done with a digging stick? I've dug Camas with a digging stick and was amazed that the Indian woman were able to do so and feed their families and put enough away for later use. But a hole this size in rocky ground and not written about, No way. Using a knife is totally out of the question. You would not abuse your knife like that it would last you very long at all. From what I've read a cache was made in a day or less time. Done with a fry pan or digging stick or knife I think not. All I can say is those six shovels sure did see a lot of use over that twenty years. From all the caches that were dug during that time. Larry No I haven't seen one of Dave Conte's shovels. If your coming to Nationals bring it along and we'll put it to use digging Camas. See ya down the Trail Crazy Cyot - --part1_110.ba272c.28525ec5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John you said

I have a fry pan you could dig a pretty good cache with.  A digging stick
would do.  A large knife could suffice.
I can tell it has been a while since you have done much digging John.

We are talking about a hole two feet in diameter carried down to a depth of
three feet, when it is gradually enlarged, and depend until it becomes
sufficiently capacious to contain whatever is destined to be stored in it.
This is how Ferris describes how a Cache was made.
This hole at a minimum would be six feet deep. From the lists of things that
were put in some of these Caches they were much deeper then that.

All done with a fry pan and not written about??

Done with a digging stick? I've dug Camas with a digging stick and was amazed
that the Indian woman were able to do so and feed their families and put
enough away for later use. But a hole this size in rocky ground and not
written about, No way.

Using a knife is totally out of the question. You would not abuse your knife
like that it would last you very long at all.

From what I've read a cache was made in a day or less time. Done with a fry
pan or digging stick or knife I think not.

All I can say is those six shovels sure did see a lot of use over that twenty
years. From all the caches that were dug during that time.

Larry
No I haven't seen one of Dave Conte's shovels. If your coming to Nationals
bring it along and we'll put it to use digging Camas.
See ya down the Trail
Crazy Cyot

- --part1_110.ba272c.28525ec5_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 12:52:23 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels No argument with any of what you say. And the last digging I did was 2 weeks ago on the land, with a shovel. I just want to know where they got shovels because 6 doesn't begin to supply the number of caches dug. You haven't seen my fry pan if a man really needed to it could be made to work, albeit not easily. Before we see every camp sporting a shiny new shovel wouldn't it be good to know just how common they were and how they got there? John... At 01:00 PM 6/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >John you said > >>I have a fry pan you could dig a pretty good cache with. A digging stick >>would do. A large knife could suffice. > > >I can tell it has been a while since you have done much digging John. > >We are talking about a hole two feet in diameter carried down to a depth of >three feet, when it is gradually enlarged, and depend until it becomes >sufficiently capacious to contain whatever is destined to be stored in it. >This is how Ferris describes how a Cache was made. >This hole at a minimum would be six feet deep. From the lists of things that >were put in some of these Caches they were much deeper then that. > >All done with a fry pan and not written about?? > >Done with a digging stick? I've dug Camas with a digging stick and was amazed >that the Indian woman were able to do so and feed their families and put >enough away for later use. But a hole this size in rocky ground and not >written about, No way. > >Using a knife is totally out of the question. You would not abuse your knife >like that it would last you very long at all. > > From what I've read a cache was made in a day or less time. Done with a fry >pan or digging stick or knife I think not. > >All I can say is those six shovels sure did see a lot of use over that twenty >years. From all the caches that were dug during that time. > >Larry >No I haven't seen one of Dave Conte's shovels. If your coming to Nationals >bring it along and we'll put it to use digging Camas. >See ya down the Trail >Crazy Cyot Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 11:44:28 -0700 From: "pat broehl" Subject: MtMan-List: shovel, period Greetings to those who read the list, We can not assume that they had to bring shovels along with them just because we cannot imagine how obviously they must have needed them. It is possible that they made them from wood as they were needed. Also possible that they made due with whatever was at hand. But as with every other aspect we are unsure about, we will remain unsure about until we find proof. Every small or insignificant item that we know they carried has been documented. It does not seem common for them to have a supply of any such items without it showing up on some inventory. That's just my opinion. with respect Itsaquain _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 13:12:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovel, period We will never Know just how many shovels there were in the FT, or how common they were, but it is by no means a stretch to state that they were fairly common. We have evidence that they went into the RMFT. Forts were built, caches dug and so on. While every trapper probably did not own one, a brigade would have found them very useful. I am sure they were in use at astoria, fort hall, bents fort, taos, Missouri and so on. I generally bring a minimum of equip to a voo or encampment, and someone is generally kind enough to let me borrow what I need, like a shovel, sharing a fire, maybe pitchin in to do a communal meal. I meet more people this way, and accumulate less useless clutter (useless in my everyday life). What I find necessary I buy or make. Yet I have not dug a cache so maybe I do a shovel. Maybe someone who has done a month or more on horseback in the wilds would let us Know what they think. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 14:46:02 -0600 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovel, period Guys, I congraduate you on your quest for the answer with this question. But, I have to think that shovels were common on the western frontier. When a fort or post used cotton wood posts as the fence around it or in construction of the building itself, these trees (some 14 high) were sunk in the ground at least 4 feet. I don't know any other way of doing this but with a shovel/ pick. For a decent size cache, a shovel would be the best way to do it. Here is a source for 6 more "spades"- 2/10/37 1/2 dozen spades 11.5 $5.730 (Amercian Fur Company, Missouri Hisorical Society, volume Y, Z) Invoice of Sundry Merchandise furnished to Rocky Mountain Outfit 1837, under charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick and Co. I use a small flat (roughly square) hand forged shovel on trips. Straight handle, it has two sides riveted together, that works great. I don't like the "T" handles as they always seems to get caught in the packs and ropes. I have used mine to trench around shelters, dig a small cache, level out sleeping areas, make small stream deeper (to fill canteens, give the horses a better place to water, etc.) and help put small fires which start aroudn the campfire. It is my under standing that any company of men, train of wagons or small trapping party would have atleast one of these things around. Why? If nothing else to bury to dead. mike. Chris Sega wrote: > We will never Know just how many shovels there were in > the FT, or how common they were, but it is by no means > a stretch to state that they were fairly common. We > have evidence that they went into the RMFT. > Forts were built, caches dug and so on. While every > trapper probably did not own one, a brigade would have > found them very useful. I am sure they were in use at > astoria, fort hall, bents fort, taos, Missouri and so > on. > > I generally bring a minimum of equip to a voo or > encampment, and someone is generally kind enough to > let me borrow what I need, like a shovel, sharing a > fire, maybe pitchin in to do a communal meal. I meet > more people this way, and accumulate less useless > clutter (useless in my everyday life). What I find > necessary I buy or make. Yet I have not dug a cache > so maybe I do a shovel. Maybe someone who has done a > month or more on horseback in the wilds would let us > Know what they think. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:17:30 -0600 From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ----__JNP_000_567f.577a.79f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I found Astor's inventory list in appendix B of Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men. The list also mentions 3 pick axes. I find it curious that there are so few shovels and picks mentioned on such a lengthy list of tools. Adze' seem to be more plentiful as do hoes. I can see building a cache using axes, adze' or hoes to loosen the dirt and some other means to remove it. One possibility of another means to remove it could be a wooden shovel. Looking in Eric Sloan's A Museum of Early American Tools you can see two such shovels. Such "Treen-Ware" (made from trees) would be fairly simple to make and a knowledge of which I must assume would not have been uncommon among the men of the day. This is a great topic by the way. "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html - ----__JNP_000_567f.577a.79f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,
 
 
I found Astor's inventory list in appendix B of Firearms, = Traps=20 and Tools of the Mountain Men.
The list also mentions 3 pick axes. I find it curious that there are = so few=20 shovels and picks mentioned on such a lengthy list of tools.
 
Adze' seem to be more plentiful as do hoes. I can see building a cache= =20 using axes, adze' or hoes to loosen the dirt and some other means to remove= it.=20 One possibility of another means to remove it could be a wooden shovel. = Looking=20 in Eric Sloan's A Museum of Early American Tools
you can see two such shovels. Such "Treen-Ware" (made from trees) = would be=20 fairly simple to make and a knowledge of which I must assume would not have= been=20 uncommon among the men of the day.
 
This is a great topic by the way.
 
"Teton" Todd D. Glover
http://homestead.= juno.com/tetontodd/index.html
- ----__JNP_000_567f.577a.79f1-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:41:50 -0400 From: David Card Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Used Clothes Well, somebody's gotta ask... Walter, what size girls dress do you wear? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 00:19:27 -0400 From: "walter palmer" Subject: MtMan-List: used clothes does anyone have used clothes for a 1830 free trapper ? this is a new lif= e = for me and i would like to start out easly . i have been watching e ba= y = but no luck . thanks shirt =3D med pants =3D 34 waist 30 long shoe =3D 9 also any girls dress etc . longbutt@hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #813 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.