From: kraftwerk-owner@xmission.com (kraftwerk Digest) To: kraftwerk-digest@xmission.com Subject: kraftwerk Digest V3 #105 Reply-To: kraftwerk@xmission.com Sender: kraftwerk-owner@xmission.com Errors-To: kraftwerk-owner@xmission.com Precedence: kraftwerk Digest Wednesday, July 9 1997 Volume 03 : Number 105 In this issue: Re: (kw) RE: 18 bits per sample Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax (kw) Interesting Stuff (was: 18 bits per sample) (kw) KW on vinyl RE: (kw) People who sample kraftwerk Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax Re: (kw) KW on vinyl Re: (kw) KW on vinyl (kw) Japan CD/Hiss (kw) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:57:53 +-200 Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax RE: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax RE: (kw) RE: 18 bits per sample Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax Re: (kw) RE: 18 bits per sample (kw) Professor X Re: (kw) People who sample kraftwerk (kw) Digital Recordings #4 (kw) Mysteriours Musicians (kw) Sellafield Update, Please Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax Re: Re[2]: (kw) what's happened to Elecrtic music ? Re: (kw) kw desktop theme?? Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax Re: (kw) Shock Kraftwerk/Alien Connection!! Re: (kw) KW on vinyl Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the kraftwerk or kraftwerk-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 15:11:38 -0400 From: ralphm@mindspring.com Subject: Re: (kw) RE: 18 bits per sample >Lets hope >> there aren't any cats or dogs on this mailing list... > >God damn... you discovered me ! >> >> So why do we have 32-bit sound cards...? Couldn't help it, but I had to say that was funny! Ralph # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 21:11:37 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax ralphm@mindspring.com wrote: > > >>A CD you buy today > >>will sound worse in a few years > > > >What are a few years? I heard of that too, but have not noticed anything > >about that. > Circa 1990 or 91, i wrote an article for a computer mag about mass storage devices. Among other things I interviewed a techie at D2 (european manufacturor / distributor of HD, CD-ROMs players etc) who told me that the manufacturors' warranty for data recorded on magnetic media (floppies, DAT, HD, tapes and the like) is 2 years only, while the warranty for WORMs, CD-ROMs, opto-magntic... is 10 years. Of course, if it's kept in good conditions, it can last much longer. But anyway, the warranty of magnetic stuff is very short. The reason for the 10 years warranty (as i've been told by the same guy) is that the industry expect to put out a new medium within these 10 years, whose life expectancy (at least for the data it stores) will be slightly longer. As if the specs of a new medium should never exceed the time needed to develop the next generation ! As for the reason of decrepancy (sp?) of CD-like media, he said that the quality of the stuff (sorry I can't find the english word) coated on the downside of CD varies over time, and that over 15 years, there's plenty of chances that parts of such CDs would be unreadable. Furthermore, the cheaper the coat, the sooner you'll send your CDs to the trash. Since then, I avoid all discount price CD reissues, because they're made with cheap stuff, and of course will fall apart even faster. In other words, you get what you pay for. May be things are improving, because those info are a few years old, and also because after the lack of success of mini-disk and digital cassette, the industry has understood that people will never accept to buy their entire record collection every 10 years in a new format... jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 21:24:02 +0200 From: Statik <0weterings01@flnet.nl> Subject: (kw) Interesting Stuff (was: 18 bits per sample) >Because intensive computing on sound samples require more than >the 16 bits for audio output - otherwise, the least significant >bits get lost on every computation and some distortion is added >to the output signal. > >For instance, let's say you have to make several successive >add / substract / multiply / divide on decimal numbers and that >you remove the decimal part of the result at each step of the >computation. That way, the final result (integer in that case) >would be slightly different from the thoretical one (with decimal >part). > Very true indeed this! Since this discussion is getting really interesting now (without trying to sound like an asshole), i'd say: Nerd Alert! Put your propellorhats on! Check.... The difference between the sampled result and the original input signal can be (and is) considered as (white) noise, and is called the Quantization Noise. You can calculate the (very important) Signal-to-Noise ratio. The difference between an integer (for instance 14, for sampled value) en a float (for instance 14.4, for an 'original' value) is in the worst case 0.9999999.... etc, so let's say the difference is 1 'level' at max. Since 16 bits are used for CD-players, 2 to the 16th power makes 65536 different levels, and only one of these levels could be considered as noise (assuming lineair encoding), so the signal-to-noise ratio would be 65536-to-1, or which is used normally 20 X log 65536/1 = 96.3 dB If you take a look in the technical specs of a good CD-player, this number will be almost reached. If you'd used 18 bits (= 262144 levels) the S/N-ratio would be 20 X log 262144/1 = 108.3 dB which is a whole lot better. Professional hard-disk recording systems (the expensive ones) use 24-bit (= 16777216) encoding, so that would give a stunning S/N-ratio of 20 X log 16777216/1 = 144.5 dB To be honest, I really don't think that even the most hooked sound freak would notice the difference. Bye for now, Statik. - -- "I doubt, therefore I might be..." # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 15:27:07 -0500 From: Subrata Bhattacharjee Subject: (kw) KW on vinyl My two cents on this CD/vinyl thing. Like a lot of people on this list, I have multiple versions of most KW albums on vinyl and CD. I have found that the biggest sonic difference has to do with the place and time of pressing. For example, I have Computerworld in the standard German CD version, the American CD re-issue from the mid 80s, a German vinyl pressing which I think was early 80s, and a Canadian vinyl pressing from the same time. All are in good condition. Out of these, the best is the German vinyl, followed by the German CD. Then the Canadian vinyl, and last, the American CD. I suspect the American CD is particularly awful (1) because they didn't have the original masters and (2) CD transfers from the mid 80s all seemed to be pretty bad, especially in low frequency reproduction. Any thoughts on this ? # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:43:48 -0000 From: Claudio Falaschini Subject: RE: (kw) People who sample kraftwerk > samples by the following groups.....Information society, Afrika Bambaata > (planet rock), LA Dream Team, Hooverphonic, Anything Box, Biz Markie, Future > Sound of London, Chemical Brothers and even a local rap group. Anyone have > any to add to this list? We, "Avant Garde" from Argentina Nonstop... nonstop... nonstop... nonstop... nonstop... nonstop... nonstop... Claudio # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:14:38 +0100 From: "Mark Humphrey" Subject: Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax >>I remember trying to listen to a track by Japan called 'Ghosts' >>(acoustic version) on CD through a very hi-end system, well over ten >>thousand pounds worth, and the hiss was unbearable. When I put the >>original vinyl on the turntable, the difference was outstanding. You've just fired a neuron deep inside my (small) brain! I remember a friend from collage (a good 7 years ago now) telling me that Ghosts sounds far better on Vinyl than it does on CD. I believe that he was refering to the hiss. > Perhaps that has something to do with the master tape that the CD was >dubbed from. Indeed. A pressing, on what ever medium, can only be as good as the master it's made from. I have heared of CD's (and Vinyl) being pressed from a copy, or a copy of a copy, of a master. For the simple reason that the master is no longer available (lost, stolen, destroyed etc). For example the master tapes for The Cure's 17 Seconds went missing a few years ago. Subequently current pressings are made from a copy (or possibly a copy of a copy) of the master, and because of this suffers terribly from hiss. I assume that an original Vinyl copy should sound pretty good as it would have been cut from the original master. It wouldn't surprise me that if you do some investigation you'll find that something similar happened to Ghosts. As a side note, you only gain from Vinyl if the master is good quality analogue or >16bit 44.1khz digital (obviously!). If you hear any additional information on a Vinyl pressed from a 16bit 44.1khz master over its CD counterpart, it must be colouration! Just for the record I do find a good bit of vinyl on on a good turntable can easily beat the c&*p out of a CD! Mark # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:22:41 +0100 From: "Mark Humphrey" Subject: Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax >Just for the **record** I do find a good bit of vinyl on on a good turntable can >easily beat the c&*p out of a CD! > >Mark Oh dear, I didn't spot the pun until after I sent it :) Mark # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 22:34:30 +0100 From: jbv Subject: Re: (kw) KW on vinyl I've been told many times that the quality of vinyl itself has a big influence on the sound quality. For instance, most japanese pressing use first-hand vinyl, which means vinyl never used before for anything. On the contrary, some factories use second hand vinyl (vinyl from previously pressed records and processed in some way to be re-usable). Of course, the quality of the master and the mastering process itself (mostly EQ) are of equal importance. jbv # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:52:57 -0400 From: "Scott M. Barnhill" Subject: Re: (kw) KW on vinyl >For example, I have Computerworld in the standard German CD version, the >American CD re-issue from the mid 80s, a German vinyl pressing which I think >was early 80s, and a Canadian vinyl pressing from the same time. All are in >good condition. Out of these, the best is the German vinyl, followed by the >German CD. Then the Canadian vinyl, and last, the American CD. I suspect the >American CD is particularly awful (1) because they didn't have the original >masters and (2) CD transfers from the mid 80s all seemed to be pretty bad, >especially in low frequency reproduction. Any thoughts on this ? While I do not own any vinyl copies of 'Computer World', I do have both the English and German CDs of the album, and I must agree that I'm clearly partial to the German-language recording both in regards to sound quality and aesthetic appeal. Don't get me wrong though, I don't find that the American version of the CD is in any way unbearable to listen to because of the sound quality. I personally feel that the KW disc with the poorest sound quality would have to be 'The Man-Machine', which tends to suffer from a lower overall volume mix and greater noise component than the others, but as someone else mentioned before, this is most likely due to the master tapes of 'Man-Machine' themselves. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill barnhill@easyway.net "By pressing down a special key, it plays a little melody..." # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:46:46 -0400 From: Julian Seifert Subject: (kw) Japan CD/Hiss >You've just fired a neuron deep inside my (small) brain! I >remember a friend from collage (a good 7 years ago now) telling >me that Ghosts sounds far better on Vinyl than it does on CD. I >believe that he was refering to the hiss. Hmmm. Interesting, I also have the Vinyl and CD versions of 'Forbidden Colours' by Silvian and Sakamoto, and the CD produces unbelievable hiss, even from my modest system. the vinyl, on the other hand, though it pops and crackles has no discernable faults in sound quality. Having said that, I think CD beats them hands down, purely on durability and quality. = Yes, you can damage a CD, but shit chaps, you can damage vinyl just by removing it from its sleeve!! Jules # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:01:28 -0600 From: Uffe Silverup Subject: (kw) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:57:53 +-200 >>Richard Pollton wrote: >>As far as I know the only cover he did was a live rendition of The Drifters' "On >>Broadway" (strange choice!). (snipp) Ahhhh!!! Old Gazza!!! Well hes done a few other covers as well, Trois Gymonpedies - Eric Satie (could that be called a cover???) U Got The Look - Prince!!!!! And if Im not all wrong theres even more Prince covers on some single!! Can you imagine that, Mr Roboto covers Prince!! Its a strange world (Mr Roboto.... he he he anyone remember Styx :-D) Uffe _________________________________________________________________________ Uffe Silverup Klaragatan 3 214 34 Malmo Sweden E-Mail: silverup@algonet.se or robotronik@rocketmail.com ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ # Peektime viewing blown in a flash, as I burn into your memory cells# ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:34:35 +0200 From: lbo Subject: Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax >Oh, and by the way, CD's do jump, I have had many a Cd that jumps, >and it has been nothing to do with the alignment of the laser! it happened to me that a brand new cd jumped on a cheap equipment, but went all right on a good quality one. maybe those interpolation corrective devices do exists, after all... # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:35:18 +0200 From: lbo Subject: Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax >>semi-destructive medium. Play a 12" enough and the needle is eventually >>going to wear down the groove. Sure, you'd have to play it a LOT, but somebody think it would be realistic a sonar-like device that read the tracks of a vinyl without mechanically interact with them? # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 17:07:52 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" Subject: Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax >>> semi-destructive medium. Play a 12" enough and the needle is eventually >>> going to wear down the groove. Sure, you'd have to play it a LOT, but > > somebody think it would be realistic a sonar-like device that read the > tracks of a vinyl without mechanically interact with them? A company called ELP already manufactures an optical turntable. But it costs nearly $20,000 and doesn't solve the surface noise problem. - -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 01:07:42 +0200 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ferm=EDn_Goiriz?=" Subject: RE: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax > somebody think it would be realistic a sonar-like device that read the > tracks of a vinyl without mechanically interact with them? I've heard in the radio a few months ago that actually there is a laser device designed to play vynils. Don't know further details, just that it was bloody expensive. Ah, yes, and that it could only play black vynils, not color. [????] - -Fermin # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 19:15:04 -0400 From: Ian West Subject: RE: (kw) RE: 18 bits per sample I did some research - let's see how much discussion this kicks off... Human Ear Dynamic Range: From 0 dB at the threshold of hearing to 120 dB above which your ears will bleed. Silence in a library = 40 dB. Silence in a music studio = 25 dB so so only the upper 95 dB will be perceived. What medium has with the most dynamic range? - CDs - not vinyl. (http://www.cs.tut.fi/~ypsilon/80545/HumanAuditorySystem.html) Frequency Response: Varies signicantly - above 20 kHz for a few people - on average this is beyond what most people can hear. Sampling Rate: Sampling is just that - a sample of the original audio and thus no sound will be reproduced as originally recorded. The rate can vary from 48 kHz in professional equipment to 44.1 kHz for CDs to 32 kHz for some communcation equipment. Whatever the sample rate no frequency components (sine waves) at or above half of the sample rate will be reproduced. These components must be filtered otu before sampling to prevent A-to-D conversion aliasing. Any audio signal can be represented as an addition of sine waves at different frequencies. Everything that is sampled may be distorted by removing any components above half the sample rate and always by introducing a noise floor causing by the quantum step nature of the digital information. Aliasing: May occur during D-to-A conversion unless pre-filtered - always occurs during A-to-D conversion. Repeated copies of the sound spectrum occur either side of mutiples of the sampling frequency. The amplifying stages after the D-to-A conversion have limited frequency responses which reduces these components but an anti-aliasing filter is usually employed to positively remove them. (http://gandalf.iuk.tu-harburg.de/hypgraph/aliasing/alias3.htm) Oversampling: Without oversampling the first unwanted component is a mirror image immediately after the end of the first copy of the sprectrum, so the filter must be a very sharp one (a.k.a. "brick wall" filter) to remove that first copy and above without removing the normal audio. The frequency response of sharp filters are less flat in the "pass band" which increases the distortion. This can be improved by using better filters but they quickly become prohibitively expensive. If only the nearest copies of the sprectrum could be removed before the filter a less sharp filter could be used which is flatter in the pass band. Oversampling does just this. By increasing the number of samples played back to fill the gaps the first unwanted components are pushed further away in frequency. No additional information is added to the audio by doing this since the repeated samples contain no changes. Interpolation: Linearly interpolating between samples adds additional information to the audio which may not be how the original audio changed between the samples, so this just adds random noise and raises the noise floor. I believe that equipment that removes clicks from records analyses the audio by frequency and interpolates the individual frequency components before recombining them thus actually recreating the missing sound where the record was scratched. Linearity: If you have a perfect 16-bit D-to-A and bad non-linear amp after it, adding more bits to the D-to-A will do nothing for the linearity of the amp - it simply increases the dynamic range of the sound. If you are overdriving the amp then get an amp with a higher rating so that you stay more in the middle linear range. Now check your speakers... Bitstreaming and 1-bit converters: I agree - there are definite advantages to this which simplify the D-to-A conversion process and this is a feature to look for. More than 16-bits: I can only see the benefit of this if errors are being introduced into the digital information and increasing the number of bits pushes these errors below the most significant 16 bits. But why are errors occuring in the first place? I see no source of rounding errors here, mixing digital audio is merely adding integer numbers to other integer numbers. Perfection: If you are an audiophile with excellent hearing and you live in an anechoic chamber with an ambient sound level of 0 dB, then you will be disappointed to find that CD audio is not perfect. For us mere mortals who have been to too many rock concerts living in an apartment with barking dogs, screaming kids and cardboard walls, it don't make a lotta difference. For an excellent overview of this whole process see http://www.magnavox.com/electreference/basicaudiotech/compactdisc.html BTW, the 32-bit sound card question was a joke =) =) =| =( I hereby withdraw to a safe distance... Ian. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:14:02 -0600 (MDT) From: Ra Subject: Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Scott M. Barnhill wrote: > As far as quality and sound are concerned, I'd be hard-pressed to > pick favorites. I can definitely appreciate the warmth that vinyl has to > offer, often causing a track to bring new life to a song which had only been > listened to on CD prior. I remember when I heard "Radio-Activity" for the > first time on the vinyl medium and I was moved to hear how big and rich the > metallic industrial snares boomed through the speakers. In my opinion, this > is where the CD really does falter. While the CD delivers a much cleaner > and precise recording, there is an inevitable coldness that prevails which > lacks a certain "emotional" or "organic" quality. It's interesting how almost all vinyl enthusiasts say about the same thing. Personally I interpret that "warmth" and "organic" quality as a lack of high-frequency response. Back when all I had was a record player and tape deck, I was forever turning the treble response all the way up on both of them. I was frustrated by the lack of "crispness" in the sound. CDs were a boon to me because I finally go the treble I wanted, plus better bass as well. /* Soleil "Ra" Lapierre www.cuug.ab.ca:8001/~lapierrs * * "Do not run! We are your friends!" - Mars Attacks */ # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 01:28:55 +0200 From: Paulo Mouat Subject: Re: (kw) RE: 18 bits per sample Ian West wrote: > Perfection: If you are an audiophile with excellent hearing and you > live in an anechoic chamber with an ambient sound level of 0 dB, then > you will be disappointed to find that CD audio is not perfect. For us > mere mortals who have been to too many rock concerts living in an > apartment with barking dogs, screaming kids and cardboard walls, it > don't make a lotta difference. You don't need to be an audiophile with excellent hearing and living in an anechoic chamber with 0dB ambient to experience the lack of perfection of CD players. Whoever made this comment is throwing sand into your eyes--if you care for the experience, then try it out and judge for yourself. As for everything, there are people who give importance to hearing music in the most perfect way and there are people who don't. It is a personal matter. I have been to rock concerts, classical concerts, I have a dog, and I wish I had the $$$ to buy a Goldmund Reference turntable. But I won't deny that I would also buy a Wadia transport with a Mark Levinson 33 dac. As for the rest of the references you provided, they are arguable. As are the ones I presented before. Listening ability varies from person to person; Rudolf Koenig (a relevant scientist in the acoustics community) reported that at age 41 his hearing extended to 23 kHz. If this means that the rule of thumb for audio standards is that they should suffice for the majority of people (the "mere mortals who have been to too many rock concerts" for whom "it don't make a lotta difference") while being poor for a few others, I couldn't disagree more. I just want to listen the best way I can. All the best. - -- __|__ ___\_/___ Paulo Mouat, ___ mouat@mail.telepac.pt |___| http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/8804/ |___| # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:44:20 -0400 From: muziknut2@juno.com (Adam Schefflan) Subject: (kw) Professor X >>> My personal favorite [KW] rip-off artist is Professor X... <<< You mean the leader of the Blackwatch movement? "This is protected by the Red, the Black, and the Green..." What about the message???? It's time to wake up and get some knowledge! ALL the Blackwatch-produced albums are fucking brilliant--he's no KW rip-off, he's a socially conscious, Afrocentric teacher! Which cut was it for the record???? Peace. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:15:55 -0400 From: muziknut2@juno.com (Adam Schefflan) Subject: Re: (kw) People who sample kraftwerk >>> Since we have been discussing Karl Bartos a bit here I may add that he did a remix of the kraftwerk ripoff "Planet Rock." I have now heard kraftwerk samples by the following groups.....Information society, Afrika Bambaata (planet rock), LA Dream Team, Hooverphonic, Anything Box, Biz Markie, Future Sound of London, Chemical Brothers and even a local rap group. Anyone have any to add to this list? <<< Yes, Bartos, as Elektric Music, remixed "Planet Rock"; it's on the remix EP "Don't Stop...Planet Rock" on Tommy Boy/Warner Bros. (TBCD 1052). Afrika Bambaataa didn't exactly sample KW, his studio musicians re-played the TEE line on their own equipment (in this case, Arthur Baker & John Robie). Please use the term "hip-hop" instead of "rap"--rap refers to talent-less wannabes, hip-hop refers to the real shit. KW has also been sampled by The Puppies, Sir Mix-A-Lot, Rampage the Last Boy Scout, and Todd Terry, but there are countless others that I can't think of right now. Peace. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:39:38 -0400 From: muziknut2@juno.com (Adam Schefflan) Subject: (kw) Digital Recordings #4 [First digitally recorded rock album] >>> He is correct. It was in 1978 and it was Ry Cooder. Of course the album was only released on vinyl, but it was recorded digitally. Some sources state that Fleetwood Mac's TUSK album was first. That was also recorded in 1978. <<< The first digitally recorded hip-hop album was "In Full Effect" by Mantronix, from 1988; it was also the first album mastered from DAT instead of reel tape. Peace. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 22:09:44 -0600 From: Marco DuBose Subject: (kw) Mysteriours Musicians > I think Ralf & Florian are THE definitive masters at maintaining their >aura of mysteriousm and building hype. That is maybe one of the reasons we >all love them so much.... Anybody agree???? I disagree. I think the title goes to The Residents. While we do have quite a bit of information about who Kraftwerk are and their history, The Residents are completely unknown (and still manage to tour!) Marco # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 20:36:15 -0700 From: "Larry R. LaCost Jr." Subject: (kw) Sellafield Update, Please I have the "Stop Sellafield" video with Kraftwerk and U2. I beleive that it was made in 1992. What has happened to Sellafield? Did they expand it? I'm curious because KW quoted "Two will produce seven-point-five tons of plutonium every year" and "Two will release the same amount of radio-activity..." in Tribal Gathering. A concerned American... thank you for your replies. Larry R. LaCost Jr. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:11:31 +0800 From: usura@pacific.net.sg Subject: Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax Eric Oehler wrote: And having CDs, despite any percieved quality >limitations, is a lot better than having nothing at all. > > at the risk of posting a "me too" message, i agree totally with Eric. while having a superb system and sound enhances the listening experience, what ultimately counts is the _music_. ten million dollars' worth of technology will do nothing for michael jackson. awaiting flames from MJ fans monique. # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:31:53 -0700 From: discofembot@juno.com (Bill C Talley) Subject: Re: Re[2]: (kw) what's happened to Elecrtic music ? >i've also wondered the same thing. i recently got my hands on the >"laif stail" (lifestyle) cd maxi single, which i quite like, but it's very >dificult to find these remixes! i didn't even know that EM had released >singles of crosstalk and overdrive! i do enjoy karl's work and have always >believed he contributed alot to the kw effort (and sound). any suggestions on >where i may be able to order the other singles (ie crosstalk, overdrive), >maybe over the net or something?? ACK!! I must have these!! I saw the limited pressing of 'Crosstalk' at a Tower music once, years ago. It appeared to be in a small brownish box, four tracks. I kick myself daily for not nabbing it (my boyfriend wanted the Bassmasters 'Set The Contols For The Heart Of The Bass' grrrrr....) but I didn't have enough money for both. I have 'Television' and loooooove the mix 'T.V.' - in fact I found a second one and got it too! Perhaps a trade can be arranged? Bill # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:26:07 -0700 From: discofembot@juno.com (Bill C Talley) Subject: Re: (kw) kw desktop theme?? >does anyone on the list know if there are any kraftwerk desktop themes >available for us windows95 users?? it just occured to me that this >would be >a cool idea, but as yet, i've not come across any on the web. perhaps >someone here with an interest (and the proper theme 'editor' ) could >propose >some designs and distribute them to the list. anyone else think this >is a >good idea? Yes, it's a very good idea!! I'm going to begin "werking" on the sounds tonight. I'm not very good at making icons, so if there are any visually adept artists on the list - this would be an excellant op. What should be the background image? I personally like the image of them at the cafe table in front of the digitally reproduced hillside. Ideas? Bill # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:20:34 -0700 From: discofembot@juno.com (Bill C Talley) Subject: Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax >>>semi-destructive medium. Play a 12" enough and the needle is >eventually >>>going to wear down the groove. Sure, you'd have to play it a LOT, >but > >somebody think it would be realistic a sonar-like device that read the >tracks of a vinyl without mechanically interact with them? You are too ahead of your time...Brilliant idea! Bill # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:47:04 -0700 From: discofembot@juno.com (Bill C Talley) Subject: Re: (kw) Shock Kraftwerk/Alien Connection!! >There's been a lot of media coverage in the UK to commemorate the 50th >anniversary of the first reported sighting of "flying saucers". >All of a sudden it struck me: There's an uncanny resemblance between >the alien >in the Roswell autopsy video and the now hairless and old Florian >Schneider!! >Spooky. You have found our little secret out. Now you will pay for it with your life! ; ) Bill Schneider- "De goose flys at night, de goose flys at night, over..." # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 00:02:33 -0700 From: discofembot@juno.com (Bill C Talley) Subject: Re: (kw) KW on vinyl >>For example, I have Computerworld in the standard German CD version, >the >>American CD re-issue from the mid 80s, a German vinyl pressing which >I think >>was early 80s, and a Canadian vinyl pressing from the same time. All >are in >>good condition. Out of these, the best is the German vinyl, followed >by the >>German CD. Then the Canadian vinyl, and last, the American CD. I This German CD pressing has as high a quality, if not higher than the Japanese in my opinion. The root may lay in the the German equipment must be an extremely high standard of both analogue and digital recording/mixing mediums, whereas the Japanese sounds completely digital. The most evident and prevolent in my collection are the Depeche Mode singles. The German ones sound far superior, with more depth and warmth. The Japanese pressings are very, ummm, ah "digital" sounding. Theres no real way to put it, aside from just listening to it. The ambience from the German pressings is really comfortable, while the Japanese counterparts are not as "alive". The UK pressings are crap. All of the ones I've gotten from the US and UK are not as high quality. "Mastered By Nimbus" has no meaning for me anymore... Bill # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 11:36:05 +0300 From: Otso Pakarinen Subject: Re: (kw) Bits Vs. Wax Oliver Kess wrote: > I expect the technology to be outdated and not available > anymore (10 years or so) and the medium still to be ok. > That is, what always happens to storage devices. Player is gone, but the > medium still lives. If all goes well, the next big standard is DVD with players that are capable of playing good old CDs, too. So I wouldn't worry too much about that. Scott M. Barnhill wrote: > While the CD delivers a much cleaner > and precise recording, there is an inevitable coldness that prevails which > lacks a certain "emotional" or "organic" quality. What, coldness and lack of "emotional" or "organic" quality? In a Kraftwerk record? Are you kidding? ;-) usura@pacific.net.sg wrote: >...while having a superb system and sound enhances the listening experience, what ultimately counts is the _music_. Yep, my feelings exactly. I'm fine with CDs and a reasonably good HiFi system - as long as there is a CD I like in the player. Otso # Need help using (or leaving) this mailing list? # Email majordomo@xmission.com with "info kraftwerk" in the message. # Postings must go to kraftwerk@xmission.com -- replies go to original sender. ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk Digest V3 #105 ******************************* To subscribe to kraftwerk Digest, send the command: subscribe kraftwerk-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@xmission.com". 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