From: Howard A Subject: M_Boats: Self Steering Date: 02 Nov 2001 07:03:43 -0600 I've been wondering how small you can go with mechanical self steering devices and still have them work right. Don't know if they can be put on our smaller M boats or not. It seems to me that if the boat is tuned and balanced right, it should work ok as long as the crew doesn't move around too much. I've found that when motoring, I can lash the tiller amidships, then move about the boat, and when steering corrections are needed, just move from one side to the other to heel the boat and change course. If it works when motoring, it would have the same affect when sailing. Self steering might be able to correct for that, but as long as you didn't jump around too much, you should be able to set it and stay out of the way. A week or so ago Tod mentioned building some sort of self steering device for BuscaBrisas. Don't know what he had in mind. The smallest of commercial versions like the Navik and smaller Fleming are still pretty large for out boats. I suppose a scaled down version could be made, but getting one to work right looks to be pretty technical. So I guess my question is, other than sheet to tiller steering (works great with wind forward of the beam, but not so hot off the wind), has anyone ever used an effective self steering device on the M boats? Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Self Steering Date: 02 Nov 2001 05:31:52 -0800 (PST) Howard, I have made copies of the critical pages from book on how to make wind vane self steering systems. I am going to ship an unsolicted copy to Tod. The book is very practical, the designs are endorsed by Blondie Hasler and you can make them for about $50. - -he book is "wind-Vane self-steering. How to plan and make your own" by Bill Belcher. ISBN -0-87742-158-7. The book guides you on scalability by giving you enough theory and its application to the authors designs to approximately size it for the boat you have in mind. The horizontal axis wind vane with direct tiller steering seems very appropriate to the M series. The scaling is done by the size of the vane which is very easy to make. I intend to mount it to the hull without drilling any holes to make sure it works. A nice 20 hour winter project. Doug "Seas The Day" --- Howard A wrote: > I've been wondering how small you can go with > mechanical self steering > devices and still have them work right. Don't know > if they can be put on > our smaller M boats or not. It seems to me that if > the boat is tuned and > balanced right, it should work ok as long as the > crew doesn't move > around too much. I've found that when motoring, I > can lash the tiller > amidships, then move about the boat, and when > steering corrections are > needed, just move from one side to the other to heel > the boat and change > course. If it works when motoring, it would have the > same affect when > sailing. Self steering might be able to correct for > that, but as long as > you didn't jump around too much, you should be able > to set it and stay > out of the way. > > A week or so ago Tod mentioned building some sort of > self steering > device for BuscaBrisas. Don't know what he had in > mind. The smallest of > commercial versions like the Navik and smaller > Fleming are still pretty > large for out boats. I suppose a scaled down version > could be made, but > getting one to work right looks to be pretty > technical. > > So I guess my question is, other than sheet to > tiller steering (works > great with wind forward of the beam, but not so hot > off the wind), has > anyone ever used an effective self steering device > on the M boats? > > Howard > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Self Steering Date: 02 Nov 2001 10:09:25 -0500 Howard, On my M15 I just use the Forespar tiller extension for self steering. The knob on the end goes into the Forespar box in the cockpit coaming; the other end is in the tiller fitting. I have found - after some adjustment to get it on the course you want to sail - that it will do a reasonably good job. Yes, on a boat the size of the M15, moving about causes heading changes. Years ago I built a horizontal axis wind vane for our 29 footer from a design I found in the British Amateur Yacht Research Society book. The whole unit was made of wood with a thin plywood vane. It was mounted on the stern pulpit. The control lines then led from the unit via various blocks on the cockpit coaming to the tiller. (to set course, you have to be able to turn the windvane unit about it's vertical axis to have the edge of the wind vane looking at the apparent wind when you are on your desired course - and this creates the complications of how to run the lines coming from the sheave that is moved by the windvane). The lines criss-crossing the cockpit make the cockpit a very unhospitable place for the Admirable! Did it work? You bet, and very nicely - provided you had enough wind. I would depart Watch Hill, RI bound for Block Island, set up the wind vane, and it would hold course till I arrived off the entrance to Block Island - about 26 NM. But, ...... no wind - no self steering; and that is exactly the time you want an autopilot on board! So, I finally broke down and bought an electronic self steering device. ( I think it was a Navico) It worked well under sail or under power in a flat calm: didn't clutter up the cockpit with control lines; was easy (and small) to stow. My windvane had a vane that was about 24" wide at the top, was about 48" high. Thevane weight was balanced with lead weights hanging from arms attached to the vane. Add the mount, and all the hardware, and you wind up with a pretty clunky piece of gear to try and stow; ....unless you leave it mounted on your stern pulpit all the time. Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: Self Steering Date: 02 Nov 2001 17:14:19 -0600 Conbert H Benneck wrote: > Howard, > > On my M15 I just use the Forespar tiller extension for self steering. > The knob on the end goes into the Forespar box in the cockpit coaming; > the other end is in the tiller fitting. Connie: When motoring, I use a line to lock the tiller amidships, and can adjust it as needed. It holds a reasonable course when motoring or sailing, but you don't set it and forget it. You just don't have to have a grip on the tiller all the time. > The lines criss-crossing the cockpit make the cockpit a very unhospitable > place for the Admirable! I would agree about the lines. I'm sure they work, but all those lines are a pain. Same thing for sheet-to-tiller systems. The way I rig mine, I'm trapped in one corner of the cockpit. It works fine unless I move.... then all hell breaks loose. Ergo my thoughts on the wind vane. I like the idea of a servo trim tab directly on the rudder to eliminate the lines to the tiller, and with a horizontal vane sensor. I've got some ideas on how it should work, but would require messing up the rudder to mount the trim tab to test it. I might go so far as to build a plywood rudder mockup to test the idea. But scaling the whole thing is a problem. There may be design specs for the relationship between the vane size and steering rudder or trip tab, and the leverage created by the various linkadges....in short lots of things to consider if you are doing this by trial and error. So why invent the wheel if somebody else has already done it? If Doug gets Tod busy, I won't have to! Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: M_Boats: CBR 2002 ? Date: 02 Nov 2001 17:18:08 -0600 Doug etal: Anyone given any thoughts on possible destinations and dates for a CBR 2002? Believe it or not, my calender is starting to get clutterd up...even that far out. I'd like to work around it if I can. Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Jacobs" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Self Steering Date: 02 Nov 2001 19:00:41 -0800 Hi Howard, Check out the web site at http://www.mindspring.com/~waltmur/Self-Steering/ I've downloaded all the instructions and pictures. Haven't quite scienced it out in my mind yet, though. But it seems like a rig like this could be built to fit any sized boat. Anyway, it's a very interesting web site. And In like the idea of gluing on the mounting pads with 3M 5200! He calls it the "20/20 wind vane" ... 20 hours work and $20 in parts. Probably more like a 40/40 up here in Canada :) Went out in the M17 all day ... bright and sunny with a steady 10 knot breeze ... perfect sailing weather, even though the days are a bit short now. -Peter- ======================= Peter Jacobs, M17 "Enfin" Victoria BC Canada 'The gods do not deduct from man's allotted span those hours spent in sailing.' -- Anonymous ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 5:03 AM > I've been wondering how small you can go with mechanical self steering > devices and still have them work right. ....................................(snip) > Howard > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Self Steering Date: 03 Nov 2001 05:38:35 -0800 (PST) According to Mr. Belcher there is more than adequate power in a horizontal axis to tiller vane for most boats under 30 ft. The complexities of addition of a pendulm steering or trim tab are only required for application requiring more power. The power in a wind vane is limited by the size of the vane. The vane Connie had was 4 ft high. This can be scaled down to about 3ft x 10 inchs for our application. The web page you refer to still shows lines to the tiller so if using this design doesn't make things easier it makes more work and doesn't elimnate the cockpit clutter. It also looks much harder to build than direct tiller steering. Doug "Seas the Day" --- Peter Jacobs wrote: > Hi Howard, > Check out the web site at > http://www.mindspring.com/~waltmur/Self-Steering/ > I've downloaded all the instructions and pictures. > Haven't quite scienced it > out in my mind yet, though. But it seems like a rig > like this could be built > to fit any sized boat. Anyway, it's a very > interesting web site. And In like > the idea of gluing on the mounting pads with 3M > 5200! He calls it the "20/20 > wind vane" ... 20 hours work and $20 in parts. > Probably more like a 40/40 up > here in Canada :) > > Went out in the M17 all day ... bright and sunny > with a steady 10 knot > breeze ... perfect sailing weather, even though the > days are a bit short > now. > > -Peter- > ======================= > Peter Jacobs, M17 "Enfin" > Victoria BC Canada > > 'The gods > do not deduct from man's > allotted span those hours spent in sailing.' > > -- > Anonymous > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Howard A > To: Montgomery Boats List > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 5:03 AM > Subject: M_Boats: Self Steering > > > > I've been wondering how small you can go with > mechanical self steering > > devices and still have them work right. > ....................................(snip) > > Howard > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: Self Steering Date: 03 Nov 2001 07:48:27 -0600 "htmills@bright.net" wrote: > Hi, fellows! > > I expect you guys have been to these sites before: > > http://www.freehandsteering.com > My idea was to use the trim tab servo from this system....and a horizontal rotating vane as the sensor to control it. The vertical rotating vane was designed to rotate on a backstay off a boomkin. Almost a perfect fit for a new M23. Duplicating some sort of vertical rotation point that would be sturdy enough to take it might be hard. I've heard that "Helmer", the wind vane for Pardey's first boat used this type of mechanism, but I've not seen how it worked. I think it used a push rod to the lever on the trim tab, instead of lines. As for backing, I think you have to be able to lock the trim tab amidships to the rudder. The cross screw under the picture is to fine tune it when locked, so it doesn't cause drift or vibration. Being able to fold it up might be helpful. But once you disconnect the links, it would also raise and lower with the rudder to get out of the way in shallow water. Too much fun. Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: CBR 2002 ? Date: 03 Nov 2001 06:07:11 -0800 (PST) Hi Howard, We try to keep the dates the same year over year and that's the second week of June, the 9th through the 15th for 2002. As to location we have been staying in the middle area of the Chesapeake because there are 2 M17s and an M23 in the area. Last year only the M23 made the trip. Gary Valletti and Greg Hann (the M17) originated the CBRs. When I listen to the Mlist postings on cruising grounds I am tempted to break with tradition. Hmmm Lake Champlain! Hmmmm the Maine Coast, Hmmm the Georgian Islands, Hmmm behind the Long Island barrier Is, Hmmm so much of the Chesapeake to see. I will start an email to those interested last year to take the topic off line. If you want to participate in the discussion, send me an email directly and I will add you to the list. Thanks, Doug Kelch "Seas The Day" doug_kelch@yahoo.com --- Howard A wrote: > Doug etal: > > Anyone given any thoughts on possible destinations > and dates for a CBR > 2002? > > Believe it or not, my calender is starting to get > clutterd up...even > that far out. I'd like to work around it if I can. > > Howard > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: For Sale Date: 03 Nov 2001 08:58:40 -0800 The November issue of Latitude 38 lists two Montgomerys for sale 1) 1985 M15 $ 5,000. Monterey, Ca 2) M17 $ 6,000. Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stan Winarski Subject: Re: M_Boats: CBR 2002 ? Date: 03 Nov 2001 17:23:21 -0500 Doug, Never been to one of these but would be interested in the June 2002. Stan Winarski M-15, #177, Carol II Hampton, VA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Howard A Subject: Re: M_Boats: Yaw Resistance Test Results Date: 04 Nov 2001 16:40:55 -0600 "htmills@bright.net" wrote: > " > > So, it looks like if we want to use a dual-axis vane (one you turn on a vertical > axis to align with the wind that pivots about a horizontal axis to control the rudder) > we need to design it so that turning the rudder causes the vane to try to straighten > the rudder again. Hmmm Does this mean something like the Freehand system.....a variation of the Freehand, or something else????? Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Self Steering Date: 05 Nov 2001 14:41:01 -0500 Tod, Random thoughts off the top of my head: ..... Having just been on Eugene's M17, I'd say you guys have the best of all worlds for playing: namely an outboard stern mounted rudder where you can mount a trim tab as a servo. This makes life very simple. Your aim then is to just move the servo trim tab a tiny bit from the wind vane input and the servo moves the rudder - i.e., minimum input power required for effective action. With the wind vane I built, I had a keel mounted rudder, so I had to use the tiller as an input site, which required the large wind vane area. As I recall, the Pardeys have made a rig where their wind vane is attached to the back stay. I haven't looked at the mechanics of it, but that sounds like a much better solution for an M17 than my arrangement of blocks and lines criss-crossing the cockpit. A vane to trim tab connection can be small and keeps the cockpit clear. ( A speedometer cable to transfer vane movement to the servo?) On the horizontal axis wind vane, you have to be able to rotate it around the vertical axis, since this is your means for establishing your course. You have to have the "edge" of the wind vane looking at the apparent wind when you are on course. If the boat changes heading, then one side or the other of the wind vane will see more wind, and the resulting wind pressure will cause the vane to tilt, pulling on the tiller lines and putting in a correction to get back on course. These systems presuppose a vessel that doesn't require two hands on the tiller and both feet braced against the cockpit seat edge to hold course. Under normal conditions, you should be able to hold the tiller with two fingers and steer. As the tiller forces build up (because of increasing wind velocity and boat speed) this is a direct read-out of when it is time to reef! The trim tab shouldn't effect your hand steering, in fact, it can help balance out forces in a weather helm if you build it with that sort of possibilitiy. Every airplane has trim tabs on ailerons, elevators and rudder for just that purpose - minimizing control forces, and to take care of aircraft trim. Imagine an empty passenger cabin with about 10 - 250 lb people all sitting in the last rows. The aircraft would be tail heavy, and the poor pilot would be leaning on his control yoke continually to balance out the forces. Instead, he reaches over and rolls in a bit of trim. Problem solved! Pilots have to do this continually to compensate for passenger loading; for the cargo weight in the hold; for fuel usage during flight. Savy sailors have done this by installing small (depends on how much force you need to apply) fixed trim tabs on their rudders. You bend them a tiny bit to reduce tiller loadings. C ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: for sale Date: 05 Nov 2001 15:40:41 -0800 Advertized in Latitued 38: M15 '85 "Seldom Used" $ 5,000. Monterey, Ca phone (831) 655-0366 M17 $ 6,000 phone (530) 269-2550 Really and Rich just returned from a delightful sail out of Coyote Point between SFO and San Mateo Bridge. 70 degrees. 5-6 knots out of NNW. flood tide. What a terrific day!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Craig Honshell" Subject: M_Boats: Montgomery 17' Tow Weight Date: 05 Nov 2001 19:12:24 -0500 If the M17 weighs 1,600 lbs, does anyone know what a Trailrite trailer weighs by itself? What the boat and trailer weigh together? Does anyone know what boat with trailer and, let's say, an average amount of gear for a weekend cruise, would weigh? What the tongue weight would be for a M17 and its Trailrite trailer? What that tongue weight would be if the boat were loaded for a weekend cruise? Would anyone out there dare tow their M17, in all conditions, with a car that had 2,000 lbs towing capacity? Thanks, Craig Honshell (M17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Shawn Boles Subject: RE: M_Boats: Montgomery 17' Tow Weight Date: 05 Nov 2001 16:41:39 -0800 Craig: I would not tow an M17 with anything rated less than 3500 #s towing capacity. Further, I think that trailer brakes are a good idea... cheers- Shawn Boles Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978) -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 4:12 PM If the M17 weighs 1,600 lbs, does anyone know what a Trailrite trailer weighs by itself? What the boat and trailer weigh together? Does anyone know what boat with trailer and, let's say, an average amount of gear for a weekend cruise, would weigh? What the tongue weight would be for a M17 and its Trailrite trailer? What that tongue weight would be if the boat were loaded for a weekend cruise? Would anyone out there dare tow their M17, in all conditions, with a car that had 2,000 lbs towing capacity? Thanks, Craig Honshell (M17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 17' Tow Weight Date: 05 Nov 2001 20:14:58 EST --part1_14d.38da1f4.29189392_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig, There several saftey factors woven into the rated towing limits but I would definitely NOT tow anything that weight (boat and trailer weight together) close to the stated towing capacity. In this case it is much better to be safe than sorry. John "Miss T" M 17 #372 --part1_14d.38da1f4.29189392_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig,

There several  saftey factors woven into the rated towing limits but I would definitely NOT tow anything that weight (boat and trailer weight together) close to the stated towing capacity.  In  this case it is much better to be safe than sorry.

John
"Miss T"
M 17 #372 --part1_14d.38da1f4.29189392_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 17' Tow Weight Date: 06 Nov 2001 00:34:27 EST --part1_12.14fe55bc.2918d063_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/06/2001 12:14:49 AM !!!First Boot!!!, chonshel@compulit.com writes: > Would anyone out there dare tow their M17, in all conditions, with a car > that had 2,000 lbs towing capacity? > > NO!!! --part1_12.14fe55bc.2918d063_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/06/2001 12:14:49 AM !!!First Boot!!!, chonshel@compulit.com writes:


Would anyone out there dare tow their M17, in all conditions, with a car
that had 2,000 lbs towing capacity?



NO!!! --part1_12.14fe55bc.2918d063_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 17' Tow Weight Date: 05 Nov 2001 22:27:12 -0800 I weigh our boat & Trailrite trailer whenever I come across a logging scale, averages 2400/2500 lbs fully loaded with motor and all the stuff we haul around for our outings. Thats with the trailer wheels on the scale but the tongue supported on the truck hitch. The tongue weight on our trailer is 250 lbs. Motor and spare are mounted forward of the boat on the winch mast. I don't know what the factory specs are but this is what we have and it tows very nice. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Frederick" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 17' Tow Weight Date: 06 Nov 2001 08:38:51 -0600 Most manufacturer's trailer towing capacity ratings have a small asterisk by them. It refers you to a note that states that the towing capacity is reduced by the weight of the contents of the vehicle. The weight of four adults and their luggage will considerably lower the recommended trailer rating by maybe 600 to 1,000 lbs. Brakes, suspension and transmission are designed to economically (for the manufacturer's bottom line and consumer affordabiltiy) get a maximum task done. Loads beyond these parameters overburden the vehicle and result in excessive heat, wear, and failure. All that said, if you are pulling your trailer short distances (less than say twenty or thirty minutes) on flat terrain with mild temperatures the risks are reduced. Drive cross country for hours at a time through congested cities, on two lanes, interstates and up and down mountains in the summer time and it will be best to have a trailer towing package on your vehicle with a 3,500 lb rating for a 2,500 lb boat/trailer rig. Fair winds, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Craig Honshell" Subject: M_Boats: Thank You Date: 06 Nov 2001 09:56:49 -0500 Thanks, all, for the excellent responses to my trailering questions! I may forward the original email again this Friday to get responses from those who check their mail infrequently. --Craig Honshell (M17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 17' Tow Weight Date: 06 Nov 2001 15:53:54 -0800 (PST) --- Craig Honshell wrote: > Would anyone out there dare tow their M17, in all > conditions, with a car > that had 2,000 lbs towing capacity? I have had two front wheel drive American made cars rated for 2000 lbs towing capacity. I have towed an M15 (or equivalent weight) at 750 lbs, + 350lb trailer + 350lb of stuff (approximate)about 4000 mi on each car. At 90000 mi the transmissions started to give up the ghost on both cars. An M17 would be out of the question. I just sold the car and bought a Toyota 4runner rated for towing 5000 lbs and I hope it will go 160,000 mi. Thanks Doug "Seas the Day" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Self Steering Date: 07 Nov 2001 14:10:12 -0500 Howard, As I said before, I tried the wind vane approach: works fine as long as there is wind. No wind; no self steering Sheet to tiller works equally as well: but same problem as above, which is why I finally got the electronic Navico autopilot. That works when the wind blows and in flat calms too, .....but you then need electrical power to run the autopilot. Problems, problems! If it weren't for problems to solve our toys wouldn't be half as much fun as they are! Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Harvey Hochstetter" Subject: M_Boats: Re:M_Boats Towing Weight Date: 08 Nov 2001 03:11:27 -0700 Craig, Doug et al, I'm pretty new at the Montgomery thing but when I purchased "Pelican" , an M-15, the weight was a consideration in choosing between the 15 and the 17. In researching a vehicle to purchase prior to getting the M-15 I considered the tow vehicle weight, the towing capacity, the transmission options and the fuel milage. For me I wanted something that was heavy enough that the wind wouldn't be pushing me around on the road, the towing capability would handle a small yacht, the transmission would outlast my last minivan, (Although there probably isn't much out there that will out last my go to work car, a Toyota Tercel with over 460,000 miles ) and reasonable ( better than 20MPG ). My search led me to a Subaru Outback, with all wheel drive, an automatic transmission and towing capacity of 2000. To lite for an M-17 but perfect for the M-15, which weighs 1200 pounds loaded and on the trailer, ( according to the truck scales we ran over.) Other than the trailer hitch that we had installed on the Outback the only options for towing will be the transmission cooler on the wagon and a tongue extension on the trailer. The Transmission cooler is of prime importance to the longevity of the transmission. Especially with an automatic tranny. It only takes a few minutes for the trans fluid to reach temps that are dangerous to the life of the unit. Even some vehicles that are "trailer tow package " equipped may not have a transmission cooler included. If it's not there it should be. Doug, I think that 4 Runner is still the best looking tow vehicle on the road. good luck on making the 160K. It should handle "Seas the Day" easily, and with that bumper height, you will probably not need that tongue extension. Craig, IMHO you would be pushing the car to its limit, with the car and boat empty, and on anything but ideal conditions you could be at the brink of risking life and limb at worst, or your vehicle at best. I just think that you should be looking for a tow vehicle with a bit more heft. Harvey & Deena M-15 #348 PELICAN Walla Walla, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: towing Date: 08 Nov 2001 08:21:45 -0800 Will your Suburu Wagon tow your M15 in the Sierra Nevadas (Lake Tahoe) and across the country ( New Hampshire)? I recently spent $ 1,900. on a re- built transmission for a Ford Taurus Wagon after towing my M15 in the mountains for several years. I like station wagons and I wish there was one which I could have complete confidence in the Sierras and on long trips between California and New Hampshire. It appears the auto manufacturers might be going back to making wagons again but I don't think my Taurus will last another couple years Rich Cottrell Really M15 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Thank You Date: 08 Nov 2001 20:58:35 -0500 Craig, FWIW, I have been towing my M15 (I figure at least 1200# with trailer and gear) with my RAV4. The RAV is a 5-speed and has a 2-litre DOHC, 16-valve 4, and is rated to tow 1500#. I seldom have much gear on board the tow vehicle, maybe 150# max. I brought the boat from Houston, TX, to Pittsburgh, and have had it in NY State, keep it in Ohio, and traveled to the Chesapeake 3 times without a problem or concern. Well, one concern when a semi and I headed for the same lane at an interstate junction. Fortunately without contact, although he tore up the shoulder some and I had to detour up the "wrong" interstate. But the tow vehicle didn't contribute to the concern! Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Craig Honshell Sent: November 06, 2001 9:57 AM Thanks, all, for the excellent responses to my trailering questions! I may forward the original email again this Friday to get responses from those who check their mail infrequently. --Craig Honshell (M17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Deena Smith" Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 02 Nov 2001 05:32:24 -0800 I would certainly think our Subaru Outback would have little problem towing in mountain terrain, but I wouldn't want to without the transmission cooler! Ours is a 4cyl. and I would probably get a V6 if planning to do that kind of travel, although we seem to have enough power for our needs. I don't believe the fuel economy is too bad for the V6. We average around 26-28mpg with or without towing the M15. Deena "Pelican" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 08 Nov 2001 20:21:37 -0700 I thought I'd chime in here about the subaru idea. Currently, I'm supporting three cars -- my wife's Nissan Quest mini-van (pulls my boat great, but is so loaded with junk most of the time that it takes half a day to ready it for a sail trip); my Nissan 200SX Se-r that gets me to work through very aggressive Seattle traffic; and my '92 Nissan pick-up that I bought for 4K just to pull my boat and haul garbage. Now that it's fall, the truck is pretty much just sitting there in the driveway gathering dust and I'm starting to feel guilty about it. Lately, I've been thinking about consolidating my car and truck into one vehicle. The only one that I think could fit the bill (as fun as a sports car to drive yet able to pull my M-15) would be the Subaru Imprezza TS wagon. The WRX wagon would be faster/funner but would probably not have the low-end torque required. I was also thinking of getting the manual shift. Figure it would be funner to drive than the auto with no transmission heating worries. Plus, after pulling my M-15 with my Nissan pick-up without a problem -- a 5-speed manual, 2.4 engine -- I'm sure the Imprezza would do fine. Comments? Bob Olson M-15 "Piccolo" >I would certainly think our Subaru Outback would have little problem towing >in mountain terrain, but I wouldn't want to without the transmission cooler! >Ours is a 4cyl. and I would probably get a V6 if planning to do that kind of >travel, although we seem to have enough power for our needs. I don't >believe the fuel economy is too bad for the V6. We average around 26-28mpg >with or without towing the M15. > >Deena >"Pelican" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Harvey Hochstetter" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Towing Date: 09 Nov 2001 01:46:49 -0700 More on this subject. One slight drawback with the Outback is that it sits lower than a pickup or SUV. For that reason I think I am going to have to have my trailer modified with a tongue extension. For where I have lunched, which is quite limited, it has worked OK but I have had to put the Outback closer to the water than I prefer. As to the transmission, I certainly agree that the manual 5 speed is more fun to drive, and I like the control of the manual, however, from my mechanics opinion, FWIW, is that over the long haul, the automatic will be more economical and better on the drive train, than a manual. ( Provided it is cooled effectively and maintained regularly. As to will the Sub Outback tow in the mountains or cross country, I can't say for sure from experience, however, I agree with Deena, the 6 cylinder would have been a better choice but I'm convinced that ours will do the job OK. We will be towing throughout the northwest. From North Idaho through the Blue Mountains and Cascades and south to the Wasatch in northern Utah to Bear Lake. Give me a year or two and I'll let you know how the Subaru Outback 4 cylinder/automatic stands up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: M_Boats: Re:M_Boats Towing Weight Date: 09 Nov 2001 08:17:53 -0600 Harvey, sounds like a good set up for the M15. what does a transmission = cooler run? I tow a M15 with an old Toyota wagon, straight 6, back wheel = drive. it works well but I might go with a transmission cooler in the = future. Randy Watkins M15#194 >>> LoHHochs@ihc.com 11/08/01 04:11AM >>> Craig, Doug et al, I'm pretty new at the Montgomery thing but when I purchased "Pelican" , an M-15, the weight was a consideration in choosing between the 15 and the 17. In researching a vehicle to purchase prior to getting the M-15 I considered the tow vehicle weight, the towing capacity, the transmission options and the fuel milage. For me I wanted something that was heavy enough that the wind wouldn't be pushing me around on the road, the towing capability would handle a small yacht, the transmission would outlast my last minivan, (Although there probably isn't much out there that will out last my go to work car, a Toyota Tercel with over 460,000 miles ) and reasonable ( better than 20MPG ). My search led me to a Subaru Outback, with all wheel drive, an automatic transmission and towing capacity of 2000. To lite for an M-17 but perfect for the M-15, which weighs 1200 pounds loaded and on the trailer, ( according to the truck scales we ran over.) Other than the trailer hitch that we had installed on the Outback the only options for towing will be the transmission cooler on the wagon and a tongue extension on the trailer. The Transmission cooler is of prime importance to the longevity of the transmission. Especially with an automatic tranny. It only takes a few minutes for the trans fluid to reach temps that are dangerous to the life of the unit. Even some vehicles that are "trailer tow package " equipped may not have a transmission cooler included. If it's not there it should be. Doug, I think that 4 Runner is still the best looking tow vehicle on the road. good luck on making the 160K. It should handle "Seas the Day" easily, and with that bumper height, you will probably not need that tongue extension. Craig, IMHO you would be pushing the car to its limit, with the car and boat empty, and on anything but ideal conditions you could be at the brink of risking life and limb at worst, or your vehicle at best. I just think that you should be looking for a tow vehicle with a bit more heft. Harvey & Deena M-15 #348 PELICAN Walla Walla, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 09 Nov 2001 13:23:19 EST Bob, with all those imports, why not park them in Tokyo???? What ever happened to driving a Ford or Chevy??? Is the world gone mad....Larry B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 09 Nov 2001 13:41:40 -0700 >Bob, with all those imports, why not park them in Tokyo???? What ever >happened to driving a Ford or Chevy??? Is the world gone mad....Larry B > I can't afford to fix 'em when they break [prematurely]. http://www.edmunds.com/news/column/writeanddrive/46346/article.html Bob Olson <---- wishing there was a Montgomery car ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Kelch Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 09 Nov 2001 14:43:41 -0800 (PST) My Ford died at 90 k mi with about 4k mi towing 1300 lbs and My Chrysler died at 90 k mi with the same towing load. Both cars were rated for towing 2000 lbs. If I had not belived the specs I would have put in a transmission cooler. I gues we live and learn but I now tow with a Toyoto 4runner. I did have a GM car, 350 cubic inch V8 towing a 3500 lb load with a transmission cooler an it lasted 130 k mi. Doug "Seas the Day" --- LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > Bob, with all those imports, why not park them in > Tokyo???? What ever > happened to driving a Ford or Chevy??? Is the > world gone mad....Larry B > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 09 Nov 2001 18:15:26 EST --part1_36.1e6f9e37.291dbd8e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit May be it's over kill, but when I was searching for a tow vehicle, I asked Jerry what he used. He use to deliver a lot of his boats across the USA. He used a F150 with the 300 cubic inch six. I found one at a good price, and been using it for 12 years. The original engine was used hard before I got it, and I put on 50,000 miles before it quit. I replaced the engine ($1700, a LOT cheaper than buying a new truck). John "Miss T" M17 # 372 --part1_36.1e6f9e37.291dbd8e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit May be it's over kill, but when I was searching for a tow vehicle, I asked Jerry what he used.  He use to deliver a lot of his boats across the USA.  He used a F150 with the 300 cubic inch six.  I found one at a good price, and been using it for 12 years.  The original engine was used hard before I got it, and I put on 50,000 miles before it quit.  I replaced the engine ($1700, a LOT cheaper than buying a new truck).

John
"Miss T"
M17 # 372 --part1_36.1e6f9e37.291dbd8e_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Riker" Subject: RE: M_Boats: towing Date: 09 Nov 2001 19:23:00 -0500 Okay, Doug, what killed the Ford and the Chrysler? You imply that towing without a tranny cooler contributed, but give no specifics. If we're going to analyze this to death, we need ALL the facts :) Bill Riker M-15 #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Doug Kelch Sent: November 09, 2001 5:44 PM My Ford died at 90 k mi with about 4k mi towing 1300 lbs and My Chrysler died at 90 k mi with the same towing load. Both cars were rated for towing 2000 lbs. If I had not belived the specs I would have put in a transmission cooler. I gues we live and learn but I now tow with a Toyoto 4runner. I did have a GM car, 350 cubic inch V8 towing a 3500 lb load with a transmission cooler an it lasted 130 k mi. Doug "Seas the Day" --- LBarkhuff@cs.com wrote: > Bob, with all those imports, why not park them in > Tokyo???? What ever > happened to driving a Ford or Chevy??? Is the > world gone mad....Larry B > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sandyal55@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 09 Nov 2001 20:59:32 EST --part1_62.16b38575.291de404_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/09/2001 6:24:02 PM !!!First Boot!!!, LBarkhuff@cs.com writes: > driving a Ford or Chevy??? Is the world gone mad....Larry B > > I've wondered that myself as I read this list. I've always used an American truck with a V8 to tow with. I'd never use a front wheel drive to tow. Of cource, I live in Arizona where we have mountains to climb to get to some of our lakes. With temps around 115 lots of times, a trans cooler is essential for any towing. A truck transmission is rated to tow. Most front wheel drive cars don't even recommend towing at all. A 1/2 ton Ford pickup with the 4.6 liter V8 gets around 21 mpg on the road when not towing. And they're the number 1 truck rated for dependability and resale value. Of course the downside to owning a truck is that all your friends with small front wheel drive cars always want you to get some lumber from Home Depot or help them move furniture. Tongue in cheek; Sandy --part1_62.16b38575.291de404_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/09/2001 6:24:02 PM !!!First Boot!!!, LBarkhuff@cs.com writes:


driving a Ford or Chevy???   Is the world gone mad....Larry B



I've wondered that myself as I read this list. I've always used an American truck with a V8 to tow with. I'd never use a front wheel drive to tow. Of cource, I live in Arizona where we have mountains to climb to get to some of our lakes. With temps around 115 lots of times, a trans cooler is essential for any towing. A truck transmission is rated to tow. Most front wheel drive cars don't even recommend towing at all. A 1/2 ton Ford pickup with the 4.6 liter V8 gets around 21 mpg on the road when not towing. And they're the number 1 truck rated for dependability and resale value. Of course the downside to owning a truck is that all your friends with small front wheel drive cars always want you to get some lumber from Home Depot or help them move furniture.

Tongue in cheek; Sandy --part1_62.16b38575.291de404_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve & Diana Parsons" Subject: M_Boats: Montgomerys listed - 48 North Date: 09 Nov 2001 18:41:07 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1694E.181B4350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greets, There are three Montgomerys listed in 48 North. Two 15's and a 17. Here's the link... http://www.48north.com/sailsale/ss-24.htm Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1694E.181B4350 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greets,
 
There are three Montgomerys listed in = 48=20 North.  Two 15's and a 17.
 
Here's the link... http://www.48north.com= /sailsale/ss-24.htm
 
Steve
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1694E.181B4350-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 09 Nov 2001 22:06:57 EST I have owned my GMC PU for about 160K Miles, and now it has a new engine, and will probably go another xxxK miles. It is old and ugly, sort of like me, but so what....I was spoofing about the foreign cars, but my old VW THING would pull my first M17......had to be very aware of what was going on because stopping was a real trick...didn't do it a lot, by the way...Keep sailing guys...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 09 Nov 2001 22:16:07 EST actually one other comment about the GMC, recently the starter went out, and since my only son was home from school, I decided we would replace it.....Had him look for a good rebuilt, jacked up and blocked truck, gave him a wrench or two, and he did it. Then I showed him why he could not do the same thing to his Ford Contour....(FWD, smog stuff, brand new, etc_) Anyway, we enjoyed the afternoon, and saved a buck or two, and got grease under our fingernails...Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 10 Nov 2001 00:44:58 -0800 >Bob, with all those imports, why not park them in Tokyo???? What ever >happened to driving a Ford or Chevy??? Is the world gone mad....Larry B Mad, perhaps, but things have definitely changed. The Ford and Chevy could now be considered the imports with Toyota and Honda being the domestic line built by American workers in American factories. I've owned 1 Chevy and 3 Ford pickups over the last couple decades and without a doubt, by a wide margin, our good old American made Toyota Tundra is the best pickup we've ever owned. Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 10 Nov 2001 21:20:17 -0600 John, was wondering what kind of mpg you get when towing out of a set up = like that, sounds like a good option. Randy W. M15#194 <<< Saltm17@aol.com 11/ 9 5:17p >>> May be it's over kill, but when I was searching for a tow vehicle, I = asked=20 Jerry what he used. He use to deliver a lot of his boats across the USA. = He=20 used a F150 with the 300 cubic inch six. I found one at a good price, = and=20 been using it for 12 years. The original engine was used hard before I = got=20 it, and I put on 50,000 miles before it quit. I replaced the engine = ($1700,=20 a LOT cheaper than buying a new truck). John "Miss T" M17 # 372 =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 10 Nov 2001 21:28:53 -0600 Bob, a Montgomery car / truck a good idea. lapstake sheet metal like the old panel trucks / wagons?=20 Could you rig a sail option for hwy mpg? You may be on to something there. Randy W. <<< bobo4u@earthlink.net 11/ 9 3:39p >>> >Bob, with all those imports, why not park them in Tokyo???? What = ever=20 >happened to driving a Ford or Chevy??? Is the world gone mad....Larry B > I can't afford to fix 'em when they break [prematurely]. http://www.edmunds.com/news/column/writeanddrive/46346/article.html Bob Olson <---- wishing there was a Montgomery car =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saltm17@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 10 Nov 2001 23:16:00 EST --part1_158.3d4dd5a.291f5580_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy, If I drive sensibly (and despite my wifes protestations I do at times) meaning about 60, I get close to an average of 15 mpg. The truck can certainly take it a lot faster, but trying to stop without having breaks on the trailer worries me enough that I keep it about 60. That average is on interstates and fairly level ground. I've heard other F150 owners with the same engine claim higher mileage, but I really haven't seen it. This is an older truck - 1984 - and I think that has a lot to do with the mileage it gets. The M17 tows so well with this rig that it really does feel like there isn't much back there...until you have to brake hard, then the fact that the truck is heavier than the trailer helps keep everything in line. John "Miss T" M17 #372 --part1_158.3d4dd5a.291f5580_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randy,

If I drive sensibly (and despite my wifes protestations I do at times) meaning about 60, I get close to an average of 15 mpg.  The truck can certainly take it a lot faster, but trying to stop without having breaks on the trailer worries me enough that I keep it about 60.  That average is on interstates and fairly level ground. I've heard other F150 owners with the same engine claim higher mileage, but I really haven't seen it. This is an older truck - 1984 - and I think that has a lot to do with the mileage it gets.  The M17 tows so well with this rig that it really does feel like there isn't much back there...until you have to brake hard, then the fact that the truck is heavier than the trailer helps keep everything in line.

John
"Miss T"
M17  #372 --part1_158.3d4dd5a.291f5580_boundary-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve & Diana Parsons" Subject: M_Boats: M23 - Portland Date: 11 Nov 2001 17:33:33 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C16AD6.FC94CB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greets, I stopped by The Sailing Life this afternoon, and while walking the = docks, stumbled on a M23. Is the owner on the list??? It appears to be = either hull number 5, or 80(??). Regardless, although not gussied up, = it looks nice. Bronze ports and a new looking Honda. =20 Steve ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C16AD6.FC94CB80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greets,
 
I stopped by The Sailing Life this = afternoon, and=20 while walking the docks, stumbled on a M23.  Is the owner on the=20 list???  It appears to be either hull number 5, or 80(??). =20 Regardless, although not gussied up, it looks nice.  Bronze ports = and a new=20 looking Honda. 
 
Steve
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C16AD6.FC94CB80-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 - Portland Date: 11 Nov 2001 22:59:07 EST Steve, no the owner of this boat may not be known as a 23 owner. I do not have the name and address. However, it may be owned by a member and reader of the entire M list.....Larry Unless it is hull #1, which you said it was not, #1 belongs to Gary and Beth, but last I heard this boat was in La Paz.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve & Diana Parsons" Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 - Portland Date: 11 Nov 2001 21:09:48 -0800 Hi Larry, I have not spoken to the Summers for a couple of years, but like you, I think their boat was kept in Mexico. The only other M23 that I knew of in Oregon was the "Overtime" boat from Bend. If I remember right, the serial number was MMP02305800380. This boat by the way, either had a missing license, or was last licensed in '81. Steve ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 7:59 PM > Steve, no the owner of this boat may not be known as a 23 owner. I do not > have the name and address. However, it may be owned by a member and reader > of the entire M list.....Larry Unless it is hull #1, which you said it > was not, #1 belongs to Gary and Beth, but last I heard this boat was in La > Paz.... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Harvey Hochstetter" Subject: M_Boats: M_Boat Veterans Date: 12 Nov 2001 05:24:57 -0700 S A L U T E To any of the M boaters who are Military Veterans, and or especially to those who are currently active. Thank you for your service, for your courage, and sacrifice. Thank you all, and may God be with you and yours, Today and Always Harvey M-15 #348 PELICAN Walla Walla, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LBarkhuff@cs.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M23 - Portland Date: 12 Nov 2001 15:31:32 EST I read you words to say the trailer may have been last registered in 81, but the boat has current reg from that state. Not that the boat is sitting on a trailer and has not been registered since 81....correct? Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Harvey Wilson Subject: M_Boats: Re:M_Boats Towing Weight Date: 12 Nov 2001 23:42:02 -0500 Hi Randy... This wasn't addressed to me, but I had U-Haul install the hitch and tran= ny cooler on my Foerd Aerostar. Cooler was their mid-sized = one, done about 5 years ago. Cost was about $125, IIRC The other = Harvey/Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: M_Boats: Re:M_Boats Towing Weight Date: 13 Nov 2001 08:20:33 -0600 Harvy, thanks for the info >>> HarveyWilson@compuserve.com 11/12/01 10:42PM >>> Hi Randy... This wasn't addressed to me, but I had U-Haul install the hitch and = tranny cooler on my Foerd Aerostar. Cooler was their mid-sized=20 one, done about 5 years ago. Cost was about $125, IIRC The other=20 Harvey/Ga M-17 Stargazer #294 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 16 Nov 2001 12:29:08 -0800 My 2001 Subaru Forester (2.5 Liter, 165 hp, automatic transmission) handles my M15 with no problem. Comes up the 7% Lewiston (Idaho) grade in 3rd at around 55-60 mph. It's a good idea to pull it down into 3rd so the transmission doesn't hunt between 3rd and 4th, and keep the speed up so it doesn't drop into 2nd. -- Gary Hyde M15 #235 "Vanilla" > From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net > Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:21:45 -0800 > To: Montgomery Boats > Subject: M_Boats: towing > > Will your Suburu Wagon tow your M15 in the Sierra > Nevadas (Lake Tahoe) and across the country ( New Hampshire)? > > I recently spent $ 1,900. on a re- built transmission for a Ford Taurus > Wagon after towing my M15 in the mountains for several years. > I like station wagons and I wish there was one which I could have > complete confidence in the Sierras and on long trips between California > and New > Hampshire. > > It appears the auto manufacturers might be going back to making > wagons again but I don't think my Taurus will last another couple years > > Rich Cottrell > Really M15 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: towing Date: 16 Nov 2001 12:49:32 -0800 Gary: Thank's for the information. I will visit the Suburu Dealer. How many miles is the Lewiston Grade? Does anyone tow their 15 with a Volvo Wagon? I spoke with a factory rep last week. He said the Volvo can tow up to 3,300 pounds but the factory didn't recommend towing anything over 1,100 pounds without trailer brakes. He said thisThe wagon weighs 3,690 pounds. Isn't Volvo a little conservative (except for pricing @ 40K)? Rich Cottrell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 16 Nov 2001 13:17:18 -0800 Rich: The Lewiston grade is about 9 miles long and climbs about 2000 feet in elevation. -- Gary Hyde M15 #235 "Vanilla" > From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net > Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:49:32 -0800 > To: Montgomery Boats > Subject: M_Boats: towing > > Gary: > > Thank's for the information. I will visit the Suburu Dealer. > > How many miles is the Lewiston Grade? > > Does anyone tow their 15 with a Volvo Wagon? > I spoke with a factory rep last week. He said the > Volvo can tow up to 3,300 pounds but the factory didn't > recommend towing anything over 1,100 pounds without > trailer brakes. He said thisThe wagon weighs 3,690 pounds. > Isn't Volvo a little conservative (except for pricing @ 40K)? > > Rich Cottrell > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 17 Nov 2001 11:21:31 -0500 Rich, Re: M15 towing. I tow my M15, in operating condition, on a Trailrite trailer - with Honda 2 HP; fuel; water; equipment; etc. - with my VW 1.8T GTI with an automatic transmission. In the past, when I bought a Bolger MICRO, I picked it up in Bay City, MI. I had never seen the boat, nor the trailer, and when we got there I found that the MICRO was on a trailer that weighted about (my estimate - and later confirmed with calculations) double what the MICRO weighed. So MICRO weighed about 900 lbs: the trailer weighed about 1800 lbs; for a total of 2700 lbs. ....and we were committed to head for Clearwater, FL, down I-75, driving my wife's VW GOLF four door with the 4 cylinder 110 HP engine and a stick shift. Through the mountains of Tennessee - long up grades, and long down grades - there were times when I was in 2nd gear doing about 35 MPH to keep the revs up on the engine, but we made it to Clearwater, FL with no car problems. Later we took this ungainly rig from Clearwater, FL up I-95 to home, in Glastonbury, CT. When I got home, the first order of business was to find a proper trailer for the MICRO - one that was low weight. I found one, and then modified it for the MICRO. Now the MICRO and trailer combined weighed about 1200 lbs. Using the same VW GOLF with the 110 HP engine and the stick shift, we took the boat to Lake Champlain - up and down the hills of the Adirondaks on I-87 with no problems. Yes, on long up grades you have to downshift - keep the revs up at about 3K - but the VW GOLF did the job very nicely. Later I bought a ComPac 16, and hauled it from Clearwater, FL back to Connecticut and then on various other trips to Lake Champlain and to Florida again, using the same car. No problems. Next I used a VW VR6 GTI, with stick shift as my tow vehicle. I drove to Panama City, FL to pick up my new - sight-unseen - M15, and again hauled it home to Connecticut, up I-95. I have recounted the trip on the M-web before, but just a quick recap: we were eventually driving in the 70 MPH range up the Interstate, and the GTI didn't know it was being followed by a boat on a trailer! Effortless trip. The same vehicle/boat combination has made trips to Moosehead Lake, Maine, and to Lake Champlain. No problems in over 3000 miles of trailering. My newest tow vehicle is the VW 1.8T GTI with an automatic transmission. So far, I've had it for 18 months, and it is a nice combination - the automatic is a joy when launching and retrieving the boat. That's my two cent's worth. Connie M15 #400 LEPPO Glastonbury, CT ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Vincent S. Himsl" Subject: M_Boats: "Duet" is Home at Last Date: 17 Nov 2001 16:03:33 -0800 Hello to all, Everything went well picking up our new M15, "Duet", at the NorSea boat shop in California. Bob Eeg greeted our grins with equal enthusiasm and then proceeded to help Vince insert the battens, attach the rigging, and hoist the sails, etc. (I stood below with the camera and scribbled step by step instructions on a pad). Believe me, when you've only sailed once, you need all the ABC's you can get. Thanks again Bob, if you read this!! We saw David Fann's M17, "Dulcibella", and from what we could tell, she looked ready--real pretty too. Hope you get her soon. All in all, the transaction went quite smoothly. We did however have trouble with the Subura's (Forester) trailer light hookup--the blinkers and brake lights didn't work. Vince and Bob put their heads together and couldn't figure out the problem, so two Subura dealers later (who couldn't fit us in that day), Vince was pulling hairs. Finally, another thorough look revealed a 2nd plug had not been connected (wasn't there only suppose to be one?!). Arrived home that Thursday(11-6), and took Duet out the following Monday on the Snake River for her baptismal sail. She performed beautifully! Fifty degrees, blue skies, and wind about 3 knots. Couldn't have asked for a better beginning. We had our trusted friend/instructor on board, Gary Hyde (owner of Vanilla-M15), to keep us from getting into too much trouble. His M15 dates back to the 1980s, so he really liked some of the new features on ours, in particular: the 3 hatch boards (his only has 2), and also the slotted tabernacle, stern pulpit, and seal between the hull and deck. We sipped hot coffee and munched on gorp and oatmeal cookies, and agreed this was the life for us. Stay tuned for pictures and a more detailed story on a web site Vince is building. Later, Vince and Sharon Himsl M15 Duet Moscow, Idaho ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: Re: M_Boats: ``Duet`` is Home at Last Date: 17 Nov 2001 20:34:04 -0600 Congratulations on your new M15. I'm sure she'll bring you many happy days = of sailing. Randy & Greta Watkins M15#194=20 College Station, Tx <<< vhimsl@turbonet.com 11/17 6:00p >>> Hello to all, Everything went well picking up our new M15, "Duet", at the NorSea boat shop in California. Bob Eeg greeted our grins with equal enthusiasm and = then proceeded to help Vince insert the battens, attach the rigging, and hoist the sails, etc. (I stood below with the camera and scribbled step by step instructions on a pad). Believe me, when you've only sailed once, you need all the ABC's you can get. Thanks again Bob, if you read this!! We saw David Fann's M17, "Dulcibella", and from what we could tell, she looked ready--real pretty too. Hope you get her soon. All in all, the transaction went quite smoothly. We did however have trouble with the Subura's (Forester) trailer light hookup--the blinkers = and brake lights didn't work. Vince and Bob put their heads together and couldn't figure out the problem, so two Subura dealers later (who couldn't fit us in that day), Vince was pulling hairs. Finally, another thorough = look revealed a 2nd plug had not been connected (wasn't there only suppose to = be one?!). Arrived home that Thursday(11-6), and took Duet out the following = Monday on the Snake River for her baptismal sail. She performed beautifully! = Fifty degrees, blue skies, and wind about 3 knots. Couldn't have asked for a better beginning. We had our trusted friend/instructor on board, Gary Hyde (owner of Vanilla-M15), to keep us from getting into too much trouble. His M15 dates back to the 1980s, so he really liked some of the new features = on ours, in particular: the 3 hatch boards (his only has 2), and also the slotted tabernacle, stern pulpit, and seal between the hull and deck. We sipped hot coffee and munched on gorp and oatmeal cookies, and agreed this was the life for us. Stay tuned for pictures and a more detailed story on = a web site Vince is building. Later, Vince and Sharon Himsl M15 Duet Moscow, Idaho =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lewis Baumstark" Subject: M_Boats: Monty vs Potter Evaluation Date: 17 Nov 2001 21:41:53 -0500 I am the owner of a Potter 15, but am an admirer of the Monties and have never seen one is "real life." I would like to hear a frank evaluation/comparison of the P15 and the M15. I will post this same challenge to the Potter list. Lewis Baumstark P15 Bristol, Tn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Williams" Subject: M_Boats: Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:52:28 -0500 Date: 17 Nov 2001 20:54:07 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C16FBA.882F83A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TOD, WHAT TYPE OF HEATERS DO YOU USE JERRY=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C16FBA.882F83A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
TOD,
 
WHAT TYPE OF HEATERS DO YOU = USE
 
 
JERRY
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C16FBA.882F83A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: Re: "Duet" is Home at Last Date: 17 Nov 2001 20:14:15 -0800 Vince and Sharon, Congratulations on your new M15. I'm sure she will give you countless hours of enjoyment. Mark and Roberta Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Monty vs Potter Evaluation Date: 18 Nov 2001 09:29:42 EST In a message dated 11/17/2001 7:40:07 PM US Mountain Standard Time, lbaum@preferred.com writes: << I would like to hear a frank evaluation/comparison of the P15 and the M15. >> Lewis A very bold challenge, indeed...........I must caution you though, us Monty owners are a bit snooty when it comes to comparing boats........hehehe. Potters are sturdy little craft with a well founded reputation........However, once you're bitten by the M-boat bug,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it's fatal. Lenny M-23 Sea Horse ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve R. Subject: Re: M_Boats: Monty vs Potter Evaluation Date: 18 Nov 2001 07:39:54 -0800 (PST) Hi Lewis, I just bought a M-15 this spring. I considered a P-15, a Compac 16, several open boats and a lot of other boats that are no longer being made. I am not sure about the P-15 on some of the following points, so you can educate us. I understand the M-15 is self righting and has positive buoyancy. (I am one of those who always keeps the hatch closed when underway.) For me the keel design of the Montgomery is better than anything else out there. I am not sure of the proper term, but it seems the M boats would have less side slip than others. That is, when sailing upwind you can point closer to the wind and tack through a narrower angle, thus requiring fewer tacks. I like the location of the porta-potti between the vee berths and the open cabin without a post. The porta-potti is stored in a position where it may be used without having to move it. This is one of the few boats I have been on (and I have not been on many) that I can see over the top of the cabin when sailing. My wife can too. I am 5' 10 and my wife is 5' 4". On other boats I have to lean out or stand up to see past the cabin. My wife commented about how much head room there is under the boom. I was never concerned about ducking under a boom but she was - we do not have to do that with the M-15. The various fittings - cleats, blocks, rigging are of excellent quality. The boat seems well designed from the standpoint of matching sails, hull and rudder so that it stable and handles easily. I have been amazed by the knowledge Jerry M. has passed on to the list. If he is not a genius I do not understand the definition of genius. The boat is solidly built. If Jerry served in the military, it must have been the tank corps. However, there are many old boats that are not as solidly built as the Montgomerys but they are still afloat. My wish list, with some thing I will correct and some I will live without: I wish there was more ventilation in the cabin other than the sliding hatch and hatch boards. I wish there was a hatch in the foredeck to reach the jib or bow cleat (it would help with the ventilation but that would probably require a bigger boat). I wish there were a few more places near the cockpit where I could lash the tiller off or tie fenders or a boom tent. (There is the bow cleat, two cleats on either side near the stern, and the fittings where the side shrouds tie to the deck.) I wish I had navigation and anchor lights. I wish the halyards lead back to the cockpit. I wish I had a jib downhaul, which later boat do. I wish I had a boarding ladder. I wish there was a bow eye so the hull would lift when retrieving on the trailer. Again, I think later models have one. Hooking the winch to the stem fitting tends to pull the boat down when it is almost on the trailer. The Potter weighs less, so that may be a factor in some instances. I have to use a tongue extension to launch. A Potter would likely not need one and could sail in somewhat shallower water. Again, this may be a benefit. There are a lot more Potters out there. I am off this week - why not pull your Potter up here? Monday would be good before the cold front passes or later in the week when the temperatures pick back up. Where do you sail? Steve R. M-15 #119 Lexington, KY --- "Lewis Baumstark" wrote: >I am the owner of a Potter 15, but am an admirer of the Monties and have >never seen one is "real life." I would like to hear a frank >evaluation/comparison of the P15 and the M15. I will post this same >challenge to the Potter list. > >Lewis Baumstark >P15 >Bristol, Tn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AirEvacLen@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Monty vs Potter Evaluation Date: 18 Nov 2001 10:46:51 EST In a message dated 11/18/2001 8:40:27 AM US Mountain Standard Time, stever@mail.saabnet.com writes: << I am off this week - why not pull your Potter up here? Monday would be good before the cold front passes or later in the week when the temperatures pick back up. >> Lewis Sounds like an offer you can't refuse............... Lenny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing Date: 18 Nov 2001 12:44:46 -0500 Tod, I have a friend in Munich, Germany who tows her horse trailer, with horse, from one equestrian contest to another using a diesel powered VW Golf, with manual transmission. However, in Germany, if you are towing a trailer you can only drive 50 kmH, which keeps things well down in the safety region. Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: "Duet" is Home at Last Date: 18 Nov 2001 12:25:27 -0500 Hi Sharon and Vince, After the stomach butterflies on the first outing, it just keeps getting easier all the time. Glad you had such a nice first sail, with a helping knowing hand on board. If you have questions just give us all a yell, and I'm sure you'll get more advice than you can print.... Happy sailing, and keep us posted on your progress. Connie M15 #400 ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:52:28 -0500 Date: 18 Nov 2001 12:30:54 -0500 Jerry, Probably those big heater cats from Garrison Keillor's Bertha's Kitty Boutique! From the advertising, Bertha's big heater cats are trained to lay quietly, cover you and keep you warm. Depending on your size you need a minimum of two but three would make for a more comfortable night. Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grove777@aol.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Monty 17 for sale Date: 18 Nov 2001 13:33:37 EST repainted hull,galvaniized trailer, very good sails, new centerboard, in drey storage for many years, no blisters...$3000 obo...located on texas coast, 361 9499386 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lewis Baumstark" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Monty vs Potter Evaluation Date: 18 Nov 2001 16:32:34 -0500 Hi Steve, I'll try to speak to some of these issues from the Potter viewpoint. I also have little experience with other sailboats. I have owned a sunfish, a 17' Slippery 17 (ancestor of the Seaward Fox), and now my Potter. I have sailed one time on Hunter 23. That's the extent of my sailing. BTW the main reason for this is that I grew up in the Richmond, Ky. area, right down the road from you and most all my boating experience was with power boats on the Ky. river and Cumberland lake. My inlaws and most of my aunts, uncles, and cousins still live there. The Hunter 23 I sailed on belongs to a college buddy, Bill Jones, also from Richmond, who now lives in Georgetown and sails Cave Run Lake. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 10:39 AM > Hi Lewis, > > I just bought a M-15 this spring. I considered a P-15, a Compac 16, several open boats and a lot of other boats that are no longer being made. I also like the Compac 16 and looked at one long and hard before I got the Slippery 17. I would have also considered a M-15 but there weren't any around. > > I am not sure about the P-15 on some of the following points, so you can educate us. > > I understand the M-15 is self righting and has positive buoyancy. (I am one of those who always keeps the hatch closed when underway.) The P15 is also self righting and has positive buoyancy, with the hatch closed. I sail with the hatch open most of the time. The Potter rule for "buttoning up" seems to be, "when you have to reef, close the hatch and put on a life jacket." > > For me the keel design of the Montgomery is better than anything else out there. I am not sure of the proper term, but it seems the M boats would have less side slip than others. That is, when sailing upwind you can point closer to the wind and tack through a narrower angle, thus requiring fewer tacks. I really don't have enough experience to speak to the how well the Potter points as vs. other boats. I seem to be able to sail app. 40 degrees off the wind. > I like the location of the porta-potti between the vee berths and the open cabin without a post. The porta-potti is stored in a position where it may be used without having to move it. In the Potter it would be impossible to use the potti in the cabin. Even a small person would have to be a contorsionist to do that. Me, I'm 6'1', 220 lbs., no way I could. The Potter does have a compression post and no place to put your feet. If you were able to sit up in the cabin (I doubt I could), it would be cross legged. > > This is one of the few boats I have been on (and I have not been on many) that I can see over the top of the cabin when sailing. My wife can too. I am 5' 10 and my wife is 5' 4". On other boats I have to lean out or stand up to see past the cabin. Same with the Potter, no problem seeing over the cabin when under weigh. > > My wife commented about how much head room there is under the boom. I was never concerned about ducking under a boom but she was - we do not have to do that with the M-15. Also, the same with the Potter. Sitting in the cockpit with the sail up, there is about a foot clearance from the top of my head to the boom. > > The various fittings - cleats, blocks, rigging are of excellent quality. This tends to be a mixed bag with the Potter. My Potter is a 1998 model and has mostly Racelite blocks; pretty light weight, but seem to adequate. > > The boat seems well designed from the standpoint of matching sails, hull and rudder so that it stable and handles easily. I have been amazed by the knowledge Jerry M. has passed on to the list. If he is not a genius I do not understand the definition of genius. > > The boat is solidly built. If Jerry served in the military, it must have been the tank corps. However, there are many old boats that are not as solidly built as the Montgomerys but they are still afloat. > > My wish list, with some thing I will correct and some I will live without: > > I wish there was more ventilation in the cabin other than the sliding hatch and hatch boards. My Potter has a forward vent that doubles as an exit from the chain locker if used. I keep my anchors and rode in buckets just inside the hatch. Going forward on the P15 is not super easy even in calm conditions. I would NEVER try it in any heavy weather. > > I wish there was a hatch in the foredeck to reach the jib or bow cleat (it would help with the ventilation but that would probably require a bigger boat). > > I wish there were a few more places near the cockpit where I could lash the tiller off or tie fenders or a boom tent. (There is the bow cleat, two cleats on either side near the stern, and the fittings where the side shrouds tie to the deck.) The Potter has the same number and locations for cleats. What I did get was cockpit rails. The rails biggest advantage is it gives a secure place to tie stuff. > > I wish I had navigation and anchor lights. I don't have lights, but would add them if I ever did any night sailing. I have looked at the suction cup, battery powered, rubber dingy lights several times. They are legal on our boats (because we go so slow) and they are very inexpensive, about $12 a piece. > > I wish the halyards lead back to the cockpit. I have the jib halyard lead to the cockpit, but not the main. I don't have sail slugs (the P15 sail doesn't lend itself to slugs because of it's four sided shape achieved with a large batten high up) so I have to feed the sail into the slot making the halyard lead to the cockpit useless. I did the jib halyard myself. All it took was a $35 block from West Marine and a couple of pop riverts. Works great. > > I wish I had a jib downhaul, which later boat do. Wouldn't be without a jib downhaul on any boat, they are just too easy to rig not to have one. All it takes is a swivel block attached with or near the forestay, a length of 3/16 line from Wal-Mart, and maybe a cleat to tie it off to. I just tie mine to the cabin top grab handle. There is never much load on the line so that works just fine. > > I wish I had a boarding ladder. My boat came with one. Everything I read says a ladder is really needed if for no other reason as a safety percaution for falling overboard. I single hand 90% of the time so I wouldn't have any help if I fell overboard. > > I wish there was a bow eye so the hull would lift when retrieving on the trailer. Again, I think later models have one. Hooking the winch to the stem fitting tends to pull the boat down when it is almost on the trailer. > > The Potter weighs less, so that may be a factor in some instances. I have to use a tongue extension to launch. A Potter would likely not need one and could sail in somewhat shallower water. Again, this may be a benefit. There are a lot more Potters out there. I have 12" wheels on my trailer and can launch in the water that covers the trailer fenders. The P15 weighs less than 500 lbs., boat alone. I never know it's behind me. > > I am off this week - why not pull your Potter up here? Monday would be good before the cold front passes or later in the week when the temperatures pick back up. That would be great! But alas I have to work. I will be in Richmond for Thanksgiving day, then back on the road on Fri. Thanks for the invite, maybe another time. > > Where do you sail? I live in a subdivison on Boone lake, a small lake between Bristol and Johnson City. I sail Boone some, but there are a LOT of power boats and the lake is small. South Holston Lake is about 20 min away and a lot bigger. I sailed there a lot this past season. Watagua Lake is about an hour away and is also big. It has a considerable sailing presence. I was there one time this season. All these lakes are TVA lakes and are drained down in the winter. Since I'm pretty much a warm weather boater, I put my boat in the yard under a tarp from Oct. to April. The rest of the time it lives in the garage, rigged and ready to go. > > Steve R. > M-15 #119 > Lexington, KY > FYI, I'm the Minister of Music at First Baptist Church, Blountville, Tn. If you have any connections to Richmond, we might have some mutual friends. I graduated from Madison Central, 1965 and EKU, 1970. My inlaws live at Red House. I have strong ties to Waco Baptist Church (my home church) and Red House Baptist Church (my wife's home church, which I served while in college). Thanks for your reply. I look forward to hearing from you again. Lewis Baumstark p15 Bristol, Tn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Monty vs Potter Evaluation Date: 18 Nov 2001 21:39:09 -0600 Lewis, A good question and one that's been asked before I'm sure. You're a brave man entering into Mboat land and asking for opinions on the = M15. I've owned a P15 and currently sail M15#194 ( a very good condition 1981 = model ).I think you'll find the quality of the M15 top notch. The past = builder used excellent quality components and the current builder has = carried on and probably improved the boat. It is built to last. The hull = is thick and solid. The M15 has the ability to point high and makes = sailing windward on a small boat reasonable and safe. I sail mine on both = lakes and bays and feel safe in it. The ballast is a nice feature and you = won't go flipping over if you forget to put down the centerboard. The = cockpit is also larger on the M15 and 2 adults are comfortable and a kid = or two can also fit in. I did thoroughly enjoy the P15 I had. It was an = older HMS model and had wood built into the hull and was pretty stiff. I = currently go on group sails with the Texas Potter club and several of my = sailing friends are Potter sailors and are very skilled and knowledgeable = gents and ladies. The M15 beaches almost as well as the P15 or similiar = boat. You step off into 15" of water rather than 6" or so. hope this = helps with your research. Best Regards, Randy Watkins College Station, Tx=20 =20 <<< lbaum@preferred.com 11/17 8:40p >>> I am the owner of a Potter 15, but am an admirer of the Monties and have never seen one is "real life." I would like to hear a frank evaluation/comparison of the P15 and the M15. I will post this same challenge to the Potter list. Lewis Baumstark P15 Bristol, Tn. =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: M_Boats: NW get together Date: 19 Nov 2001 09:39:37 -0800 Steve & Diana: I'd be delighted to get together next summer some time, maybe after mid July. I have 2 trips I have to take earlier in the summer. Vince and Sharon Himsl in Moscow, ID might like to go, and then there are folks in Sand Point and Post Falls. I sail Coeur d' Alene, but would like to see Priest and Pend Orielle--I missed the gathering there last summer. Let's keep in touch -- Gary Hyde M15 #235 "Vanilla" > From: "Steve & Diana Parsons" > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 12:08:51 -0800 > To: "Gary Hyde" > Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing > > Gary, > > We really should make an effort to get the NW M15 boats together. In the > ten years that I have had Sojornen, I have never had the the opportunity to > sail with another M boat. Don Haas lives a few miles from me, but we never > seem to time it right. > > Diana and I have sailed the Priest Lake area, and have truly enjoyed that. > We camped at Lion Head, and literally had the place to ourselves. Waldo > Lake here in Oregon is another favorite. > > Regards, > > Steve > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Hyde" > To: "Steve & Diana Parsons" > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 11:47 AM > Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing > > >> Steve & Diana: >> No, haven't done Whitebird yet with the boat, but I've driven that road >> several times. I don't which is longer and steeper, that or the Lewiston >> grade. The latter is about 9 miles (I think) and 7% all the way--truckers >> don't like it. >> -- Gary Hyde >> M15 #235 "Vanilla" >> Pullman, WA >> >> >>> From: "Steve & Diana Parsons" >>> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:41:35 -0800 >>> To: >>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing >>> >>> Gary, >>> >>> Have you tried White Bird Pass yet? I pulled my M15 over it with a 86 >>> Toyota FWD pickup (4 cyl), and could only get about 30MPH. I am curious >>> what the Subaru could do. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Gary M. Hyde" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 1:17 PM >>> Subject: Re: M_Boats: towing >>> >>> >>>> Rich: >>>> The Lewiston grade is about 9 miles long and climbs about 2000 feet in >>>> elevation. >>>> >>>> -- Gary Hyde >>>> M15 #235 "Vanilla" >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net >>>>> Reply-To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com >>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:49:32 -0800 >>>>> To: Montgomery Boats >>>>> Subject: M_Boats: towing >>>>> >>>>> Gary: >>>>> >>>>> Thank's for the information. I will visit the Suburu Dealer. >>>>> >>>>> How many miles is the Lewiston Grade? >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone tow their 15 with a Volvo Wagon? >>>>> I spoke with a factory rep last week. He said the >>>>> Volvo can tow up to 3,300 pounds but the factory didn't >>>>> recommend towing anything over 1,100 pounds without >>>>> trailer brakes. He said thisThe wagon weighs 3,690 pounds. >>>>> Isn't Volvo a little conservative (except for pricing @ 40K)? >>>>> >>>>> Rich Cottrell >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bob Campbell" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Monty vs Potter Evaluation Date: 19 Nov 2001 09:58:29 -0800 Lewis, When I get to heaven, I'm going to have a Potter 15, Montgomery 15, Montgomery 17, Potter 19, and Hans Christian 48... which is to say, every boat has it's advantages and disadvantages. I've owned several different sailboats, the most recent being a Potter 15 and my current love - a Montgomery 17. I haven't owned a Montgomery 15 but did study them quite a bit before purchasing the M-17. So, here are some of the advantages and disadvantages I see between the two (remember, this is just my opinion): Potter 15 Advantages: Light weight - easy to tow. Easy to rig. Launches in very shallow water. Beachable. Sails flat - A plus for beginners. Draws only a few inches with board up. Very cute! - Allow an extra hour at the launch ramp for show and tell. Thinks she's an El Toro in the Harbor. Thinks she's a Hans Christian at sea. Less Expensive. Much larger numbers of P-15s Greatest sailing support group on the planet. Potter 15 Disadvantages: 1 "very large" foot smaller than the M-15. Hull not as structurally stout as the M-15. Mast and rigging not as stout. Centerboard trunk protrudes into cabin. Depends more on hull design than lead ballast for stability. Does not perform quite as well as the M-15. Montgomery 15 Advantages: 1 "very large" foot bigger than the P-15 Lapstrake hull built like a bomb shelter (Disclaimer: The M15 is not designed for, nor is it intended to be used as a bomb shelter). Stouter rigging. Thinks she's a Hans Christian when she's cruising. Thinks she's a J Boat when she's racing. No centerboard intrusion. Absolutely beautiful lines - you're going to need an extra hour at the launch ramp for show and tell on this one too. Lead ballasted shoal draft keel with swing down center board (my favorite arrangment for a microcruiser). Disadvantages: Heavier - Not as easy to tow and launch as the P-15. Deeper draft - Needs more water to launch and sail. Not Beachable. More expensive (But be careful, by the time you finish outfitting your new Potter 15, you may be closer to a new Montgomery 15 than you think). Does not sail as flat as a P-15 - May make some beginners a little uncomfortable. Because of her extra weight and longer shoal draft keel she may not be as "El Toro" like in close quarters as the P-15. Smaller numbers of M-15s Smaller (but very active and helpful) support group for M-15s The Potter 15 and Montgomery 15 are both great boats. The type of sailing you do will determine which is better for you. I prefer San Francisco Bay and ocean sailing so I would lean towards the M-15. If my primary intersest was San Joaquin Delta and lake sailing (with some bay and ocean sailing too) I'd lean toward the Potter 15. Fair Winds... Bob Campbell Montgomery 17 #615 "Alina" Lodi, CA ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 6:41 PM > I am the owner of a Potter 15, but am an admirer of the Monties and have > never seen one is "real life." I would like to hear a frank > evaluation/comparison of the P15 and the M15. I will post this same > challenge to the Potter list. > > Lewis Baumstark > P15 > Bristol, Tn. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary M. Hyde" Subject: M_Boats: M-boats --ablative bottom paint? Date: 19 Nov 2001 10:57:20 -0800 M-boaters: Just wondering if anyone uses ablative bottom paint on their M15. I bought some but haven't decides whether to use it. My boat is in the lake most of the summer and I'm getting a little too lazy (and old) to scrub the bottom every fall. -- Gary Hyde M15 #235 "Vanilla" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: M-boats --ablative bottom paint? Date: 19 Nov 2001 12:59:12 -0600 >Just wondering if anyone uses ablative bottom paint on their M15 Not on an M-15, but I used the West Marine ablative paint on the bottom of my Vancouver 25. One gallon of black, followed by 2 gallons of blue. I put her in the water in May 1999, she hasn't been out since and the black still isn't showing through anywhere. It seems to keep the biologicals away. This is the mid Chesapeake Bay -- brackish/salt water. Giles Morris Arlington VA Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stan Winarski Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-boats --ablative bottom paint? Date: 19 Nov 2001 14:29:09 -0500 I have to use it on my M-15 docked in Little Back River off Hampton Roads on the Chesapeake to keep the crustaceans from attaching but sure wouldn't in fresh water. Running her through a car wash with a high power hose should take most of the elbow grease out of the annual scrub up. Even with ablative paint, the crud attaches here in the bay and I take it to the car wash a couple of times a season - especially prior to running inland to one of the nice lakes for a week of fresh water sailing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve & Diana Parsons" Subject: M_Boats: Butane Stoves Date: 19 Nov 2001 19:43:41 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C17132.7DDA5A50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greets: Last week, my company conducted a natural disaster seminar where we = invited local organizations and vendors in to talk about emergency = preparedness, etc.. One of the vendors (Safe-T-Tech) offered a butane = stove that looks identical to the one that West Marine sells. I paid = $18 for a stove and butane cartridge, plus a carrying case. West Marine = wants $65 for the stove, $5 for the cartridge and $10 for the plastic = case. Mine works as advertised, no muss nor fuss. It even lit the = first time. I spoke to the vendor, and they are willing to sell at the same price, = that I paid, plus shipping. I suspect that you will have to buy your = own butane cartridge (23 gram), but they are at stores such as Fred = Meyer. If you're interested, they phone number is 503 236-0828. Their current = email address is bbhardware@netzero.net. Regards, Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C17132.7DDA5A50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greets:
 
Last week, my company conducted a = natural disaster=20 seminar where we invited local organizations and vendors in to talk = about=20 emergency preparedness, etc..  One of the vendors (Safe-T-Tech) = offered a=20 butane stove that looks identical to the one that West Marine = sells.  I=20 paid $18 for a stove and butane cartridge, plus a carrying case.  = West=20 Marine wants $65 for the stove, $5 for the cartridge and $10 for the = plastic=20 case.  Mine works as advertised, no muss nor fuss.  It even = lit the=20 first time.
 
I spoke to the vendor, and they are = willing to sell=20 at the same price, that I paid, plus shipping.  I suspect that you = will=20 have to buy your own butane cartridge (23 gram), but they are at stores = such as=20 Fred Meyer.
 
If you're interested, they phone number = is 503=20 236-0828.  Their current email address is bbhardware@netzero.net.=
 
Regards,
 
Steve
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C17132.7DDA5A50-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve & Diana Parsons" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Butane Stoves Date: 19 Nov 2001 19:51:23 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C17133.90D84D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't you just love it when you proof an email after you hit the send = button. Apologies for the grammar. "If you're interested, they phone number" ;-) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steve & Diana Parsons=20 To: Montgomery List=20 Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:43 PM Subject: M_Boats: Butane Stoves Greets: Last week, my company conducted a natural disaster seminar where we = invited local organizations and vendors in to talk about emergency = preparedness, etc.. One of the vendors (Safe-T-Tech) offered a butane = stove that looks identical to the one that West Marine sells. I paid = $18 for a stove and butane cartridge, plus a carrying case. West Marine = wants $65 for the stove, $5 for the cartridge and $10 for the plastic = case. Mine works as advertised, no muss nor fuss. It even lit the = first time. I spoke to the vendor, and they are willing to sell at the same price, = that I paid, plus shipping. I suspect that you will have to buy your = own butane cartridge (23 gram), but they are at stores such as Fred = Meyer. If you're interested, they phone number is 503 236-0828. Their = current email address is bbhardware@netzero.net. Regards, Steve ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C17133.90D84D50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don't you just love it when you proof = an email=20 after you hit the send button.  Apologies for the = grammar.
 
"If you're interested, they phone = number"=20 ;-)
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Steve = & Diana=20 Parsons
To: Montgomery = List
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 = 7:43=20 PM
Subject: M_Boats: Butane = Stoves

Greets:
 
Last week, my company conducted a = natural=20 disaster seminar where we invited local organizations and vendors in = to talk=20 about emergency preparedness, etc..  One of the vendors = (Safe-T-Tech)=20 offered a butane stove that looks identical to the one that West = Marine=20 sells.  I paid $18 for a stove and butane cartridge, plus a = carrying=20 case.  West Marine wants $65 for the stove, $5 for the cartridge = and $10=20 for the plastic case.  Mine works as advertised, no muss nor = fuss. =20 It even lit the first time.
 
I spoke to the vendor, and they are = willing to=20 sell at the same price, that I paid, plus shipping.  I suspect = that you=20 will have to buy your own butane cartridge (23 gram), but they are at = stores=20 such as Fred Meyer.
 
If you're interested, they phone = number is 503=20 236-0828.  Their current email address is bbhardware@netzero.net.=
 
Regards,
 
Steve
------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C17133.90D84D50-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Deena Smith" Subject: M_Boats: "Duet" Home at last Date: 07 Nov 2001 03:44:19 -0800 Vince and Sharon, Congratulations on the new "baby". She will certainly give you a great deal of pleasure, plenty of projects and an occasional challenge. All certainly worth the investment. Deena and I have been wondering how your return trip went. The week you were down there doing important things, we were up in Sandpoint, looking at the lake wantonly and loading furniture and checking out an art exhibit. (Would rather have been sailing but time constraints precluded that pleasure.) Glad you had such a nice shakedown. Sounds beautiful and like you had 3 more knots wind than we did for most of our initial trip. Curious what you came up with, if you did, for OB power for on the river? With as many M boats in the north west as there are, we sure need to get them together for a NW Region group sail. Don't you think that would be fun? Especially for those of us that are pretty new to this. Thanks for keeping us all posted. I have a feeling that at least for those of us in the northern regions, most of our sailing over the next few months may be more vicarious than tangible. At least we don't have the wet or dry suits and cold weather gear that would be prudent to be on the water for the next little while. Good time to get some sail studying done and some boat projects. Just one more reason to need some more tools, right? Happy Sails to You, Harvey and Deena M-15 #348 PELICAN Walla Walla, WA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-boats --ablative bottom paint? Date: 19 Nov 2001 22:43:41 -0800 >Gary Hyde wrote: >Just wondering if anyone uses ablative bottom paint on their M15. I bought >some but haven't decides whether to use it. My boat is in the lake most of >the summer and I'm getting a little too lazy (and old) to scrub the bottom >every fall. > > I hesitate offering this process because of how crazy it sounds but the results were positive so here goes. The hull on our 83 M17 is not bottom painted and the gel coat is in excellent condition. I had concerns about the difficulty removing the lake scum at the end of each season but did not really want to bottom paint. The same with barrier coating, once you start either of these procedures it's an on going maintenance process with periodic removal and refinish. My wife constantly accuses me of re-inventing the wheel, maybe the process I am about to describe is widely used but I haven't heard about it. After thoroughly cleaning all the junk from the hull, back to like new condition, I applied 6 coats of Future Acrylic Floor Finish with a damp sponge. A lifetime supply of instant barrier coat for a couple bucks. The label said it could be removed with ammonia so I figured the process was reversible. At the end of this season, when the boat was pulled out, the below waterline color was bright green. We figured I must have applied the perfect culture to propagate the local algae. The surprise was the stuff just melted off with a sponge and bucket of water. The hull was spotless in 15 minutes. After this first season, the coating looks as if it was just applied so I will see how it works next season without re-application. It should be noted that past performance does not necessarily guarantee Future success. As far as the M-15 / P-15 comparison goes, I offer this observation. Bob Eeg: We pretty much got the drift of your position on this subject from a previous post. Please don't go upsetting Judy again with your enthusiasm. ;-) Mike M-17 #369 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Lodrini Subject: Re: M_Boats: Montgomery 17' Tow Weight Date: 20 Nov 2001 08:21:41 -0800 (PST) --- "htmills@bright.net" wrote: > "If the M17 weighs 1,600 lbs, does anyone know what > a Trailrite trailer > weighs by itself?" > > Some paperwork that came with my boat said that the > trailer weighed 380#, > but I haven't verified the accuracy of that. > > "What the tongue weight would be for a M17 and > its Trailrite trailer?" > > Empty boat I'd guess about 80-100#; enough that I > try to avoid picking it up > if I can. > > "What that tongue weight would be if the boat were > loaded for a weekend cruise?" > > I pack the boat when getting ready to launch/after > launching....for travel I put gear > in the bed of my pickup. > > "Would anyone out there dare tow their M17, in all > conditions, with a car > that had 2,000 lbs towing capacity?" > > I have, but I don't recommend it...it's too much. > > > Just visited my nephew, who is a part-time > student/full time mechanic. He thinks > he might know of a source for bevel gears....is > going to keep his eyes open for me. > > on a more somber note........you just never know. > Two weeks ago my life-long > neighbor's nephew was feeling a little ill and now > he's dead. Pancreatic cancer, > age 51, a Coast Guard Reservist, museum curator, and > used bookstore owner, > cartography buff, and general nice guy. > >Tod, Sorry to hear of your friend's passing, as a fellow (active duty)Coast Guardsman, I salute his passing with a 'Semper Paratus' call, and Taps. Today is my 5th day off since Sept 11th, it has been an exhausting past 2 months for all of us, active duty or civilian. The men and women of the US Armed Forces are doing the greatest job in the World, and proudly so. When one of us falls, the rest of us pause to acknowledge their passing. I personally have played 'Taps' at over 25 funerals in the past 2 months. It is very draining on one's Soul to repeatedly encounter Death so frequently. So much so, that I have requested a break from playing until further notice. While I was 'underway' myself, my favorite uncle passed away from Parkinson's, 2 weeks ago. Tomorrow I will drive myself down to NJ to visit his gravesite. I weighed my M-17 trailer in August, w/o the boat on it....if I remember correctly it was 560#'s . That's off the truck's tow ball, M-17 was 1,595#. My Trailrite has the extension tongue too. I'm currently in the market for a tow vehicle, appreciated reading all the entries here. I'm a firm believer in the 'dog wagging it's tail, rather than tail wagging the dog',heavier is better to me. Eugene,Whoa Nellie M-17, Mystic,CT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net Subject: M_Boats: Volkswagon towing Date: 20 Nov 2001 08:37:59 -0800 Connie: Enjoyed your post concerning towing your M15with VW 1.8T GTI with auto trans. Yesterday, I looked at the new Passat GLX wagon V6, auto trans, with all wheel drive and liked it very much. The salesman said they had no information regarding towing (da), so I called an 800 number on the brochure. The information specialist also couldn't find information regarding towing with the 2001/2002 model. She did, however, find an old brochure ('99 model) which said do not tow over 1,000 pounds unless your trailer has brakes - with trailer brakes you can tow 3,300 pounds. This year I towed Really to the following northern California lakes: Trinity, Eagle, Silver (hwy 88), Don Pedro, Woodward, Union Valley, and Clear Lake. Some of these lakes are a long haul from Menlo Park. It typically takes an hour just to get out of the Bay Area, alone. To get to Trinity Lake, for example, I drive for four hours up the Sacramento Valley on Hwy 5, with temperatures often reaching 100+. I then have to travel another hour through a 3,300 foot pass. Silver Lake is at 7,200 ft. Eagle Lake is at 5,500 ft in absolutely nowhere, and a seven hour drive. Union Valley has a climb that I feel I need to first throw out a kedge anchor to pull me up it's so steep. Mountain Sailing is like good fishing. You got to go to hard to get to places to really enjoy the rewards. The Taurus Wagon can only handle trips to S F Bay and Valley Lakes. I borrow my wifes Quest for the mountain climbs. It hasn't failed me yet but she doesn't like me using her van and the situation is not getting any better. I don't like SUVs, trucks, vans, or cars. I like wagons!!! I like the idea of using the same transportation for business ( sales), chores( home depot), and fun (towing Really). The coming of the SUV ruined the wagon market. Several years ago I got a GM Card thinking that certainly when I reached the maximum a big outfit like GM would have at least a couple wagons - wrong. I bought a Buick Regal. It can tow Really's trailer. Now, it appears, there's hope. I plan to eventually tow Really across country to New Hampshire (in-laws) and Maine to sail lakes and the coastal waterways. Isn't trailer sailing fun. Rich Cottrell M15 288 "Really" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Volkswagon towing Date: 20 Nov 2001 10:45:58 -0600 Rich, We have a VW Golf-TDI and I wouldn't consider towing anything with = it, strictly a people hauler. The Passat is a nice vehicle but seems = likely you'd tear it up towing, it may void a warranty on thevehicle. I'd = call a VW service department and talk with someone knowledgeable.=20 I use an old Toyota wagon to tow with, 6 cyl. rear wheel drive, works = pretty well. bring back the wagons in place of the SUV's I'd buy one.=20 Regards, Randy W.=20 M15#194 >>> rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net 11/20/01 10:37AM >>> Connie: Enjoyed your post concerning towing your M15with VW 1.8T GTI with auto trans. Yesterday, I looked at the new Passat GLX wagon V6, auto trans, with all wheel drive and liked it very much. The salesman said they had no information regarding towing (da), so I called an 800 number on the brochure. The information specialist also couldn't find information regarding towing with the 2001/2002 model. She did, however, find an old brochure ('99 model) which said do not tow over 1,000 pounds unless your trailer has brakes - with trailer brakes you can tow 3,300 pounds. This year I towed Really to the following northern California lakes: Trinity, Eagle, Silver (hwy 88), Don Pedro, Woodward, Union Valley, and Clear Lake. Some of these lakes are a long haul from Menlo Park. It typically takes an hour just to get out of the Bay Area, alone. To get to Trinity Lake, for example, I drive for four hours up the Sacramento Valley on Hwy 5, with temperatures often reaching 100+. I then have to travel another hour through a 3,300 foot pass. Silver Lake is at 7,200 ft. Eagle Lake is at 5,500 ft in absolutely nowhere, and a seven hour drive. Union Valley has a climb that I feel I need to first throw out a kedge anchor to pull me up it's so steep. Mountain Sailing is like good fishing. You got to go to hard to get to places to really enjoy the rewards. The Taurus Wagon can only handle trips to S F Bay and Valley Lakes. I borrow my wifes Quest for the mountain climbs. It hasn't failed me yet but she doesn't like me using her van and the situation is not getting any better. I don't like SUVs, trucks, vans, or cars. I like wagons!!! I like the idea of using the same transportation for business ( sales), chores( home depot), and fun (towing Really). The coming of the SUV ruined the wagon market. Several years ago I got a GM Card thinking that certainly when I reached the maximum a big outfit like GM would have at least a couple wagons - wrong. I bought a Buick Regal. It can tow Really's trailer. Now, it appears, there's hope. I plan to eventually tow Really across country to New Hampshire (in-laws) and Maine to sail lakes and the coastal waterways. Isn't trailer sailing fun. Rich Cottrell M15 288 "Really" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Conbert H Benneck Subject: Re: M_Boats: Volkswagon towing Date: 20 Nov 2001 12:10:50 -0500 Rich, Years ago, VW in the USA said "NO TOWING AT ALL with a GOLF" I queried my friends in Germany who sent me the German VW performance specs, and a towing weight was listed. (trailer without brakes / trailer with brakes) My conclusion was that VW's US lawyers, must have told VW say No Towing, at all, and you are on safe legal ground. If any owner then tows and has a problem, you can always point to your No Towing admonition. That put's the ball in the owner's lap. He can't sue; can't complain; and there are no warrantee claims possible, because, "they told you so....". My wife's old GOLF with stick shift, hauled the vastly overweight MICRO and trailer from Michigan to Florida and back to Connecticut; with new "proper weight" trailer, the MICRO went to Florida and back, to Lake Champlain and was very happy with about 130K miles on it when I sold it. The student that currently owns the car, keeps telling me how much she enjoys driving the car - and now she's had it for two years - so my guess is that the mileage must be at least in the 150K range. My VW VR6 GTI with stick shift, was the tow vehicle for the M15, and had about 3000 miles of towing on it when I sold it to get the 1.8T with the automatic shift (wanted the automatic because of the traffic congestion around our local area). It had 73K miles on it when I sold it. Connie ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Lodrini Subject: Re: M_Boats: Hatches Date: 20 Nov 2001 10:02:27 -0800 (PST) --- Craig Honshell wrote: > > Has anyone out there built a teak forehatch and/or > companionway hatch for > their Montgomery? > > --Craig (M17) > Craig, I thought about it myself while cleaning up my M17 this past Summer. Sure would look nice, but teak is sOOOOOOOOOOOO pricey these days. I priced shorts for my compainonway bds at @ $145 uncut! Still, I might do it iin the Spring when I get time. Eugene playing Coastie! :) > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Hatches Date: 20 Nov 2001 12:02:21 -0600 >teak is sOOOOOOOOOOOO pricey these days I used Iroko for the cockpit grating I made for Dolphin, and it seems to be satisfactory at less than one third of the price. Giles Morris Arlington VA Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Lodrini Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sail Question Date: 20 Nov 2001 10:26:11 -0800 (PST) --- Howard A wrote: > Did it help? > > Where did you get it, and what did you order? > > When I spoke to Kern this summer, he started talking > about Stack Packs, > full batten mains, or plain ol vanilla like I have > now? More questions > than I had answers for. > > For those of you with "modern" sails, what is > optimum? > For what it's worth, I'm considering buying a new Mainsail next season too. Kevin Farrar, a well known, and highly respected loft, here in New London,CT 860-447-0382; made me a new 150 genoa and a storm sail, which I've yet to fly. He came down to the boat dockside and spent considerable time measuring and questioning me about My M 17. He makes LOTS of sails for people with expensive boats, world class sailors use his loft, I feel fortunate to have him in my backyard. He delivered on time, and the workmanship was flawless. Plus, he is willing to get out on the boat to make certain they fly the way he designed them. I will use him again. Does anyone want to put in a multiple order for better pricing? He has great ideas on a nice, redesigned main for the M17. Call him and tell him I refered you. He can measure off my M17 1981 for the specs necessary. Email me if interested, Eugene Whoa Nellie > I'm thinking the plain ol vanilla main like I now > have (a little roach, > with partial battens) and two reef points, in about > an 8 oz dacron > (somewhat on the heavy side). Although most of my > sailing this year was > done in light wind, it can get heavy. It was blowing > 20 to 30 here > yesterday, with forecast gusts to 40. That's enough > to test your pucker > factor and stretch your sails. : ) > > Howard > > Saltm17@aol.com wrote: > > > I made that decision this summer when my 17 year > old main , saggy and > > baggy, wouldn't let me tack thru 100 degrees. I > ordered a new one. > > > > John > > Miss T > > M17 #372 > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Lodrini Subject: Re: M_Boats: Maine Date: 20 Nov 2001 10:34:27 -0800 (PST) --- "htmills@bright.net" wrote: > Stopped by the library, picked up "A Cruising Guide > to the Maine Coast". > > So much coastline, so little time....... > > :-) > > Tod >Tod, Then start in Mystic,CT! Hope I can be sailing next Spring too! Connie's gonna' come down to sail Whoa Nellie, my M17 while I'm out on Coastal Patrol on our 41 & 47' er's, 'cept Whoa Nellie does'nt have a machine gun! Yikes! :) Sure would make those guys throwing big wakes think twice! Eugene the Coastie > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eugene Lodrini Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sail Question Date: 20 Nov 2001 10:39:20 -0800 (PST) --- Saltm17@aol.com wrote: > I made that decision this summer when my 17 year old > main , saggy and baggy, > wouldn't let me tack thru 100 degrees. I ordered a > new one. > > John > Miss T > M17 #372 > John, So what specs' did you use? and how did the final sail turn out? Any special items? Full batten etc? Inquiring minds want to know :) My sailmaker thought maybe a 'shelf'installed at the foot of the main might help more than loose footed, though he did mention a bit more roach than the std would help too. Eugene # 354 Whoa Nellie M17 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Becker Subject: Re: M_Boats: Butane Stoves Date: 20 Nov 2001 10:54:30 -0800 (PST) Derrek: Please send a butane stove without the gas cylinder to: Robert Becker 16995 Grovenor Drive Castro Valley, CA 94546 510 881 1787 What will the final bill be? Bob On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:43:41 -0800, montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com wrote: > Greets: > > Last week, my company conducted a natural disaster seminar where we invited local organizations and vendors in to talk about emergency preparedness, etc.. One of the vendors (Safe-T-Tech) offered a butane stove that looks identical to the one that West Marine sells. I paid $18 for a stove and butane cartridge, plus a carrying case. West Marine wants $65 for the stove, $5 for the cartridge and $10 for the plastic case. Mine works as advertised, no muss nor fuss. It even lit the first time. > > I spoke to the vendor, and they are willing to sell at the same price, that I paid, plus shipping. I suspect that you will have to buy your own butane cartridge (23 gram), but they are at stores such as Fred Meyer. > > If you're interested, they phone number is 503 236-0828. Their current email address is bbhardware@netzero.net. > > Regards, > > Steve ______________________________________________________________________________ Send a friend your Buddy Card and stay in contact always with Excite Messenger http://messenger.excite.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Volkswagon towing Date: 20 Nov 2001 11:13:56 -0700 After much deliberation on this issue, I've decided that I'd be much farther ahead to keep my little Nissan pick-up with a 2.4 litre engine and 5 speed in addition to my work commuter car, rather than try to find something that can tow my M-15 and be fun to drive as well. Although Connie's post got me pretty interested in a Golf turbo for my commutes. Next year's Golf is going to have 180 hp -- should be a screamer. BTW, for pulling an M-15, I found my little Nissan truck with a 2.4 litre engine and 5 speed does just great. I wonder if it would pull an M-17? The manual is rated for towing 3500 lbs. The auto, just 2000. I paid $4000 for a '92 with only 50k on it. It will probably outlast me. I only carry liabilty insurance on it which costs about $140 a year. Bob Olson M-15 "Piccolo" >Rich, > We have a VW Golf-TDI and I wouldn't consider towing anything with >it, strictly a people hauler. The Passat is a nice vehicle but seems >likely you'd tear it up towing, it may void a warranty on thevehicle. I'd >call a VW service department and talk with someone knowledgeable. >I use an old Toyota wagon to tow with, 6 cyl. rear wheel drive, works >pretty well. bring back the wagons in place of the SUV's I'd buy one. > >Regards, > >Randy W. >M15#194 > >>>> rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net 11/20/01 10:37AM >>> >Connie: > >Enjoyed your post concerning towing your M15with VW 1.8T GTI >with auto trans. > >Yesterday, I looked at the new Passat GLX wagon V6, auto trans, >with all wheel drive and liked it very much. The salesman said they >had no information regarding towing (da), so I called an 800 number on >the brochure. > >The information specialist also couldn't find information regarding >towing >with the 2001/2002 model. She did, however, find an old brochure ('99 >model) which said do not tow over 1,000 pounds unless your >trailer has brakes - with trailer brakes you can tow 3,300 pounds. > >This year I towed Really to the following northern California lakes: >Trinity, Eagle, >Silver (hwy 88), Don Pedro, Woodward, Union Valley, and Clear Lake. > >Some of these lakes are a long haul from Menlo Park. It typically takes >an >hour just to get out of the Bay Area, alone. To get to Trinity Lake, >for example, >I drive for four hours up the Sacramento Valley on Hwy 5, with >temperatures >often reaching 100+. I then have to travel another hour through a >3,300 foot pass. >Silver Lake is at 7,200 ft. Eagle Lake is at 5,500 ft in absolutely >nowhere, >and a seven hour drive. Union Valley has a climb that I feel I need to >first throw out a kedge >anchor to pull me up it's so steep. Mountain Sailing is like good >fishing. You got to go to hard to >get to places to really enjoy the rewards. > >The Taurus Wagon can only handle trips to S F Bay and Valley Lakes. I >borrow >my wifes Quest for the mountain climbs. It hasn't failed me yet but she >doesn't like >me using her van and the situation is not getting any better. > >I don't like SUVs, trucks, vans, or cars. I like wagons!!! I like the >idea of using the >same transportation for business ( sales), chores( home depot), and fun >(towing Really). >The coming of the SUV ruined the wagon market. Several years ago I got >a GM Card >thinking that certainly when I reached the maximum a big outfit like GM >would have at >least a couple wagons - wrong. I bought a Buick Regal. It can tow >Really's trailer. > >Now, it appears, there's hope. I plan to eventually tow Really across >country to >New Hampshire (in-laws) and Maine to sail lakes and the coastal >waterways. > >Isn't trailer sailing fun. > >Rich Cottrell >M15 288 "Really" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Sail Question Date: 20 Nov 2001 13:09:30 -0600 >maybe a 'shelf'installed at the foot I put a new main on Dolphin this year with full battens and a shelf. Had that, and a new furling 140 genoa made by Mack Sails of Florida, and the result is a lot more speed, especially in the light summer airs on the Chesapeake. It also seems to produce more drive with less heel when the wind gets up. The full battens make it somewhat easier to keep the main under control when it's down, although the lazy jacks still need work. Giles Morris Arlington VA Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randy Watkins" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Volkswagon towing Date: 20 Nov 2001 13:18:52 -0600 Bob, keeping the truck sounds like a good decision. I'll probably go with = a similar truck in the future for towing duties. VW Golf's- I'm pretty new to these but our TDI is turning out around 40-50 = mpg on the highway with the 90 hp diesel. The other Golf is more of a = sports car v6, beefier suspension, faster no doubt.=20 they are fun to drive well built vehicles. >>> bobo4u@earthlink.net 11/20/01 12:13PM >>> After much deliberation on this issue, I've decided that I'd be much=20 farther ahead to keep my little Nissan pick-up with a 2.4 litre engine=20 and 5 speed in addition to my work commuter car, rather than try to = find=20 something that can tow my M-15 and be fun to drive as well. Although=20 Connie's post got me pretty interested in a Golf turbo for my commutes.=20 Next year's Golf is going to have 180 hp -- should be a screamer. BTW, for pulling an M-15, I found my little Nissan truck with a 2.4 = litre=20 engine and 5 speed does just great. I wonder if it would pull an M-17?=20 The manual is rated for towing 3500 lbs. The auto, just 2000. I paid=20 $4000 for a '92 with only 50k on it. It will probably outlast me. I = only=20 carry liabilty insurance on it which costs about $140 a year. Bob Olson M-15 "Piccolo" >Rich, > We have a VW Golf-TDI and I wouldn't consider towing anything = with=20 >it, strictly a people hauler. The Passat is a nice vehicle but seems=20 >likely you'd tear it up towing, it may void a warranty on thevehicle. = I'd=20 >call a VW service department and talk with someone knowledgeable.=20 >I use an old Toyota wagon to tow with, 6 cyl. rear wheel drive, works=20 >pretty well. bring back the wagons in place of the SUV's I'd buy one.=20 > >Regards, > >Randy W.=20 >M15#194 > >>>> rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net 11/20/01 10:37AM >>> >Connie: > >Enjoyed your post concerning towing your M15with VW 1.8T GTI >with auto trans. > >Yesterday, I looked at the new Passat GLX wagon V6, auto trans, >with all wheel drive and liked it very much. The salesman said they >had no information regarding towing (da), so I called an 800 number on >the brochure. > >The information specialist also couldn't find information regarding >towing >with the 2001/2002 model. She did, however, find an old brochure ('99 >model) which said do not tow over 1,000 pounds unless your >trailer has brakes - with trailer brakes you can tow 3,300 pounds. > >This year I towed Really to the following northern California lakes: >Trinity, Eagle, >Silver (hwy 88), Don Pedro, Woodward, Union Valley, and Clear Lake. > >Some of these lakes are a long haul from Menlo Park. It typically takes >an >hour just to get out of the Bay Area, alone. To get to Trinity Lake, >for example, >I drive for four hours up the Sacramento Valley on Hwy 5, with >temperatures >often reaching 100+. I then have to travel another hour through a >3,300 foot pass. >Silver Lake is at 7,200 ft. Eagle Lake is at 5,500 ft in absolutely >nowhere, >and a seven hour drive. Union Valley has a climb that I feel I need to >first throw out a kedge >anchor to pull me up it's so steep. Mountain Sailing is like good >fishing. You got to go to hard to >get to places to really enjoy the rewards. > >The Taurus Wagon can only handle trips to S F Bay and Valley Lakes. I >borrow >my wifes Quest for the mountain climbs. It hasn't failed me yet but she >doesn't like >me using her van and the situation is not getting any better. > >I don't like SUVs, trucks, vans, or cars. I like wagons!!! I like the >idea of using the >same transportation for business ( sales), chores( home depot), and fun >(towing Really). >The coming of the SUV ruined the wagon market. Several years ago I got >a GM Card >thinking that certainly when I reached the maximum a big outfit like GM >would have at >least a couple wagons - wrong. I bought a Buick Regal. It can tow >Really's trailer. > >Now, it appears, there's hope. I plan to eventually tow Really across >country to >New Hampshire (in-laws) and Maine to sail lakes and the coastal >waterways. > >Isn't trailer sailing fun. > >Rich Cottrell >M15 288 "Really" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Olson Subject: Re: M_Boats: Volkswagon towing Date: 20 Nov 2001 11:29:11 -0700 --Emailer_-1205594824 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > bring back the wagons in place of the SUV's I'd buy one. > >Regards, > >Randy W. >M15#194 How's about a BMW 540i sport wagon? 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A59 %2FNYI,L% MELL-F*S'B?"X+'Q+9SO%03RU M J9)0)M13R9@<3L$/TNT./O(0V D9P0/SL$C)O(%^&TIXO$7&#$"?'_ TE M!H_KM)JD?@_PM620!"<,'B]@ #_0"G';Q@F1"!CLQKOLLMD/@SD?+R9X<'NAL$>;KSIYKQ, +N$_, MM#"@ ^9;*/IL$8N;C1=\R0^@!@V-P<",OC<;Q5FPN*<=F]&V M P"Q?+1X;HW I)\,Z3',]%J]B,;<].U@KX3$/F M.\V33+5Z'<--';43C- U5-,*@W?_PW@ 2[@ T[@!6[@!X[@":[@"\[@-!00 " #L ` end --Emailer_-1205594824-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Volkswagon towing Date: 20 Nov 2001 17:07:13 -0800 > bring back the wagons in place of the SUV's I'd buy one. Randy, How about a Subaru Legacy or Outback... station wagens with all wheel drive for pulling up wet launcy ramps. Joe Kidd M15 # 207 "Poco A Poco" PS - The admirable, our two dogs and I just returned home from a two-month cruise in our land yacht (motorhome). We meandered up through the Cascade Mountains of Oregon, circumnavigated the Olympic Peninsula of Washington, and headed back south down the Oregon and California coasts. We were in so many rain storms we now have webbed feet and moss is growing on our legs. But a good time was had by all... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Theo Petron" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Volkswagon towing Date: 20 Nov 2001 19:19:02 -0600 --------------9D187F7FE5CBBEF6AC9B9C63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VW's are for driving, NOT towing! Remember Farfegnuven? I have a '99 VW Passat Wagon 1.8T and wouldn't think of using it to tow anything, not even a 15! Rent a truck at Home Depot! Gobble Gobble!! Theo M23 #26 Sails Increase/Port Reduction Randy Watkins wrote: > Bob, keeping the truck sounds like a good decision. I'll probably go with a similar truck in the future for towing duties. > VW Golf's- I'm pretty new to these but our TDI is turning out around 40-50 mpg on the highway with the 90 hp diesel. The other Golf is more of a sports car v6, beefier suspension, faster no doubt. > they are fun to drive well built vehicles. > > >>> bobo4u@earthlink.net 11/20/01 12:13PM >>> > After much deliberation on this issue, I've decided that I'd be much > farther ahead to keep my little Nissan pick-up with a 2.4 litre engine > and 5 speed in addition to my work commuter car, rather than try to find > something that can tow my M-15 and be fun to drive as well. Although > Connie's post got me pretty interested in a Golf turbo for my commutes. > Next year's Golf is going to have 180 hp -- should be a screamer. > > BTW, for pulling an M-15, I found my little Nissan truck with a 2.4 litre > engine and 5 speed does just great. I wonder if it would pull an M-17? > The manual is rated for towing 3500 lbs. The auto, just 2000. I paid > $4000 for a '92 with only 50k on it. It will probably outlast me. I only > carry liabilty insurance on it which costs about $140 a year. > > Bob Olson > M-15 "Piccolo" > > >Rich, > > We have a VW Golf-TDI and I wouldn't consider towing anything with > >it, strictly a people hauler. The Passat is a nice vehicle but seems > >likely you'd tear it up towing, it may void a warranty on thevehicle. I'd > >call a VW service department and talk with someone knowledgeable. > >I use an old Toyota wagon to tow with, 6 cyl. rear wheel drive, works > >pretty well. bring back the wagons in place of the SUV's I'd buy one. > > > >Regards, > > > >Randy W. > >M15#194 > > > >>>> rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net 11/20/01 10:37AM >>> > >Connie: > > > >Enjoyed your post concerning towing your M15with VW 1.8T GTI > >with auto trans. > > > >Yesterday, I looked at the new Passat GLX wagon V6, auto trans, > >with all wheel drive and liked it very much. The salesman said they > >had no information regarding towing (da), so I called an 800 number on > >the brochure. > > > >The information specialist also couldn't find information regarding > >towing > >with the 2001/2002 model. She did, however, find an old brochure ('99 > >model) which said do not tow over 1,000 pounds unless your > >trailer has brakes - with trailer brakes you can tow 3,300 pounds. > > > >This year I towed Really to the following northern California lakes: > >Trinity, Eagle, > >Silver (hwy 88), Don Pedro, Woodward, Union Valley, and Clear Lake. > > > >Some of these lakes are a long haul from Menlo Park. It typically takes > >an > >hour just to get out of the Bay Area, alone. To get to Trinity Lake, > >for example, > >I drive for four hours up the Sacramento Valley on Hwy 5, with > >temperatures > >often reaching 100+. I then have to travel another hour through a > >3,300 foot pass. > >Silver Lake is at 7,200 ft. Eagle Lake is at 5,500 ft in absolutely > >nowhere, > >and a seven hour drive. Union Valley has a climb that I feel I need to > >first throw out a kedge > >anchor to pull me up it's so steep. Mountain Sailing is like good > >fishing. You got to go to hard to > >get to places to really enjoy the rewards. > > > >The Taurus Wagon can only handle trips to S F Bay and Valley Lakes. I > >borrow > >my wifes Quest for the mountain climbs. It hasn't failed me yet but she > >doesn't like > >me using her van and the situation is not getting any better. > > > >I don't like SUVs, trucks, vans, or cars. I like wagons!!! I like the > >idea of using the > >same transportation for business ( sales), chores( home depot), and fun > >(towing Really). > >The coming of the SUV ruined the wagon market. Several years ago I got > >a GM Card > >thinking that certainly when I reached the maximum a big outfit like GM > >would have at > >least a couple wagons - wrong. I bought a Buick Regal. It can tow > >Really's trailer. > > > >Now, it appears, there's hope. I plan to eventually tow Really across > >country to > >New Hampshire (in-laws) and Maine to sail lakes and the coastal > >waterways. > > > >Isn't trailer sailing fun. > > > >Rich Cottrell > >M15 288 "Really" > > > > > > > > > > --------------9D187F7FE5CBBEF6AC9B9C63 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VW's are for driving, NOT towing! Remember Farfegnuven?
I have a '99 VW Passat Wagon 1.8T and wouldn't think of using it to tow anything, not even a 15! Rent a truck at Home Depot!

Gobble Gobble!!
Theo
M23 #26
Sails Increase/Port Reduction

Randy Watkins wrote:

Bob, keeping the truck sounds like a good decision. I'll probably go with a similar truck in the future for towing duties.
VW Golf's- I'm pretty new to these but our TDI is turning out around 40-50 mpg on the highway with the 90 hp diesel. The other Golf is more of a sports car v6, beefier suspension, faster no doubt.
they are fun to drive well built vehicles.

>>> bobo4u@earthlink.net 11/20/01 12:13PM >>>
After much deliberation on this issue, I've decided that I'd be much
farther ahead to keep my little Nissan pick-up with a 2.4 litre engine
and 5 speed in addition to my work commuter car, rather than try to find
something that can tow my M-15 and be fun to drive as well. Although
Connie's post got me pretty interested in a Golf turbo for my commutes.
Next year's Golf is going to have 180 hp -- should be a screamer.

BTW, for pulling an M-15, I found my little Nissan truck with a 2.4 litre
engine and 5 speed does just great. I wonder if it would pull an M-17?
The manual is rated for towing 3500 lbs. The auto, just 2000. I paid
$4000 for a '92 with only 50k on it. It will probably outlast me. I only
carry liabilty insurance on it which costs about $140 a year.

Bob Olson
M-15 "Piccolo"

>Rich,
>        We have a VW Golf-TDI and I wouldn't consider towing anything with
>it, strictly a people hauler.  The Passat is a nice vehicle but seems
>likely you'd tear it up towing, it may void a warranty on thevehicle. I'd
>call a VW service department and talk with someone knowledgeable.
>I use an old Toyota wagon to tow with, 6 cyl. rear wheel drive, works
>pretty well. bring back the wagons in place of the SUV's  I'd buy one.
>
>Regards,
>
>Randy W.
>M15#194
>
>>>> rc2222@postoffice.pacbell.net 11/20/01 10:37AM >>>
>Connie:
>
>Enjoyed your post concerning towing your M15with  VW 1.8T GTI
>with auto trans.
>
>Yesterday, I looked at the new Passat GLX wagon V6, auto trans,
>with all wheel drive and liked it very much.  The salesman said they
>had no information regarding towing (da), so  I called an  800 number on
>the brochure.
>
>The information specialist also couldn't find information regarding
>towing
>with the 2001/2002 model.  She did, however, find an old brochure ('99
>model) which said do not  tow over 1,000 pounds unless your
>trailer has brakes - with trailer brakes you can tow 3,300 pounds.
>
>This year I towed Really to the following northern California lakes:
>Trinity, Eagle,
>Silver (hwy 88), Don Pedro, Woodward, Union Valley, and Clear Lake.
>
>Some of these lakes are a long haul from Menlo Park.  It typically takes
>an
>hour just to get out of the Bay Area, alone.  To get to Trinity Lake,
>for example,
>I drive for four hours up the Sacramento Valley on Hwy 5, with
>temperatures
>often reaching 100+.  I then have to travel another hour through a
>3,300 foot pass.
>Silver Lake is at 7,200 ft.  Eagle Lake is  at 5,500 ft in absolutely
>nowhere,
>and  a seven hour drive. Union Valley has  a climb that I feel I need to
>first throw out a kedge
>anchor to pull me up it's so steep.  Mountain Sailing is like good
>fishing.  You got to go to hard to
>get to places to really enjoy the rewards.
>
>The Taurus Wagon can only handle trips to  S F Bay and Valley Lakes.  I
>borrow
>my wifes Quest for the mountain climbs.  It hasn't failed me yet but she
>doesn't like
>me using her van and the situation is not getting any better.
>
>I don't like SUVs, trucks, vans,  or cars.  I like wagons!!!  I like the
>idea of using the
>same transportation for business ( sales), chores( home depot), and fun
>(towing Really).
>The coming of the SUV ruined the wagon market.  Several years ago I got
>a GM Card
>thinking that certainly when I reached the maximum a big outfit like GM
>would have at
>least a couple wagons - wrong.  I bought a Buick Regal. It can tow
>Really's trailer.
>
>Now, it appears, there's hope.  I plan to eventually tow Really across
>country to
>New Hampshire (in-laws)  and Maine to sail lakes  and the coastal
>waterways.
>
>Isn't trailer sailing fun.
>
>Rich Cottrell
>M15  288 "Really"
>
>
>
>
>

--------------9D187F7FE5CBBEF6AC9B9C63-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Williams" Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sail Question Date: 20 Nov 2001 21:15:07 -0500 GILES, DOES THE FULL BATTEN SAIL STILL USE A BOLT ROPE IN THE MAST OR DID THEY INSTALL BATTEN CARS JERRY WILLIAMS NEW MONTGOMERY 15 OWNER "NONAME YET" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:09 PM > >maybe a 'shelf'installed at the foot > > I put a new main on Dolphin this year with full battens and a shelf. Had > that, and a new furling 140 genoa made by Mack Sails of Florida, and the > result is a lot more speed, especially in the light summer airs on the > Chesapeake. It also seems to produce more drive with less heel when the wind > gets up. The full battens make it somewhat easier to keep the main under > control when it's down, although the lazy jacks still need work. > > Giles Morris > Arlington VA > Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" > Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" > Sundry kayaks > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: M_Boats: webfooted Joe??? Date: 20 Nov 2001 20:35:53 -0800 Joe, I know you must have experienced a few rain storms, but I really can't buy the web-footed result. We're in a terrible dry spell and still praying for rain! The only way webbed feet could sprout so fast is if you already had them but they had withered due to lack of use ;<) Furthermore, why didn't you stop and splash through some puddles with us when you drove by?? We could have had an "M boat rendezvous" even without the boats. Besides, my wife's desserts are worth the trip in themselves. (No, I'm not the least bit biased. This is just a fact.) I'm glad that you were able, at least, to visit "God's Country" even if you aren't fortunate enough to live here. Mark and Roberta Dvorscak M17 #400 GRACE ----- Original Message ----- >... We meandered up through the Cascade > Mountains of Oregon, circumnavigated the Olympic Peninsula of Washington, > and headed back south down the Oregon and California coasts. We were in so > many rain storms we now have webbed feet and moss is growing on our legs. > But a good time was had by all... > > Joe > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: webfooted Joe??? Date: 20 Nov 2001 23:47:05 -0800 Mark & Roberta... I'm serious! We were at the Salt Creek campground the nights of October 22-23 and have never experienced wind (30-40 knots) and rain (sideways) like that before. The motorhome was rocking from the wind gusts and the ground was shaking when the waves hit the bluffs below us. Then, in the rain forest the inside of the RV was dripping from condensation. And it blew and rained even more while we were on the Washington and Oregon coasts. We did see the sun once at Cape Blanco (but not for long). We made the most of it, put on our rain gear and hiked the trails and beaches anyway.A good cup of piping hot tea with Roberta's dessert would have been most welcome. Maybe next time... Happy Thanksgiving! Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mikit Subject: Re: M_Boats: webfooted Joe??? Date: 21 Nov 2001 00:15:32 -0800 Joe, Was it you, in a previous post, describing similar conditions as normal summer sailing in the San Francisco Bay? Mike > > > I'm serious! We were at the Salt Creek campground the nights of October >22-23 and have never experienced wind (30-40 knots) and rain (sideways) like >that before. The motorhome was rocking from the wind gusts and the ground >was shaking when the waves hit the bluffs below us. Then, in the rain >forest the inside of the RV was dripping from condensation. And it blew and >rained even more while we were on the Washington and Oregon coasts. We did >see the sun once at Cape Blanco (but not for long). We made the most of it, >put on our rain gear and hiked the trails and beaches anyway.A good cup of >piping hot tea with Roberta's dessert would have been most welcome. Maybe >next time... > > Happy Thanksgiving! > > Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Volkswagon towing Date: 21 Nov 2001 10:49:03 -0600 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C172AC.6D06AD20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Remember Farfegnuven? =20 Or, as I saw on a bumper sticker that looked remarkably like the real = thing: "Fukengr=FCven" =20 Anyway, the one time that I towed Umiaq with my Golf (a 1987 = bog-standard that had 140K miles when the odometer broke five years ago) I felt = somewhat short of oomph. It didn't feel as if the tail was wagging the dog, = though, and the brakes seemed to cope just fine -- just needed more power. =20 Disclaimer: I grew up in England, where something like a Golf wasn't a particularly small car ,and we we'd use it for towing without = hesitation. =20 Giles Morris=20 Arlington VA=20 Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin"=20 Montgomery 15 #236 "Umiaq"=20 Sundry kayaks =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C172AC.6D06AD20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Remember=20 Farfegnuven?
 
Or, as=20 I saw on a bumper sticker that looked remarkably like the real thing:=20 "Fukengr=FCven"
 
Anyway, the one time that I towed Umiaq with my Golf (a 1987=20 bog-standard  that had 140K miles when the odometer broke five = years ago) I=20 felt somewhat short of oomph. It didn't feel as if the tail was wagging = the dog,=20 though, and the brakes seemed to cope just fine -- just needed more=20 power.
 
Disclaimer: I grew up in England, where something like a Golf = wasn't a=20 particularly small car ,and we we'd use it for towing without=20 hesitation.
 

Giles Morris
Arlington VA
Vancouver = 25 #002=20 "Dolphin"
Montgomery 15 #236 = "Umiaq"=20
Sundry kayaks
 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C172AC.6D06AD20-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morris, Giles" Subject: RE: M_Boats: Sail Question Date: 21 Nov 2001 10:55:56 -0600 >DOES THE FULL BATTEN SAIL STILL USE A BOLT ROPE IN THE >MAST OR DID THEY INSTALL BATTEN CARS The original sail used slugs, and the sail maker supplied some rather nice batten cars (Harken, I think) that have a slug to run in the track and four little wheels that run up the mast outside the track. They work very well without requiring any changes to the mast. Giles Morris Arlington VA Vancouver 25 #002 "Dolphin" Montgomery 15 #264 "Umiaq" Sundry kayaks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe Kidd" Subject: Re: M_Boats: webfooted Joe??? Date: 21 Nov 2001 12:50:28 -0800 > Was it you, in a previous post, describing similar conditions as > normal summer sailing in the San Francisco Bay? It could have been me, but it sounds more like Mark Twain. Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: M_Boats: new list server software Date: 21 Nov 2001 17:19:37 -0700 We're changing our list server software from mojordomo to mailman. You shouldn't see any impact unless you want to take advantage of some of the new features. Wander over to http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats and then tell me what you think. Keith Diehl - Salt Lake City, UT http://www.xmission.com/~kdiehl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberta & Mark Dvorscak" Subject: Re: M_Boats: webfooted Joe??? Date: 21 Nov 2001 16:49:44 -0800 Joe, ...wind (30-40 knots) and rain (sideways) .... The motorhome was rocking from the wind gusts and the ground was shaking when the waves hit the bluffs below us... These are average Oregon coast winter conditions. You should be here when the real storms hit! ...We did see the sun once at Cape Blanco ... See, what did I tell you? A real dry spell. You shouldn't see the sun before March. Please pray for more rain for us. :<) Happy Thanksgiving! Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Keith Diehl" Subject: Re: M_Boats: testing Date: 21 Nov 2001 18:03:55 -0700 The list will automatically be forwarded to the new address so no one needs to change anything now. I'll post the new address when it's ready and anyone who wants to can make the change, thereby ensuring their posts will be distributed milliseconds faster than others. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 5:25 PM Looks good to me, Keith. I'm sending this to see if I need to change my address book.