From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #370 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Thursday, May 14 1998 Volume 02 : Number 370 In this issue: - Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?) Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?) Re: Content in music Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?) Tom Cora recommendations needed Re: Baseball brotzmann / e. parker "news" zorn goes drum'n'bass II where to get cassiber / ground zero Re[2]:Why Zorn (or anyone else?) Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?) Re: Re[2]:Why Zorn (or anyone else?) Re: Tom Cora recommendations needed Gary Lucas Radio Broadcast Fw: Tom Cora recommendations needed ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:10:48 PDT From: "Jeff Schuth" Subject: Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?) >Anyway, that's the way I've been thinking recently. >Which makes the why so difficult. We all have different why's. > > >- > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:18:50 PDT From: "Jeff Schuth" Subject: Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?) >Anyway, that's the way I've been thinking recently. >Which makes the why so difficult. We all have different why's. > > Yes, I think you did an excellent job pointing out that everyone has their own reason to be attracked to a piece. However, everyone has different reasons, yet many are attracted to it; there must be one characteristic that enables this. In other words, we might all get something different out of the music, but there are definite factors that attract us all to the music. This all goes back to my original question; how do people listen to this music? I think it is the HOW that determines the WHO and WHY of music. Your wife may think it is noise, but she listens to it differently than you. I love Cynical Hysteria Hour also, but probably for different reasons. This is because music, as any art, is dependent on personal experiences and interpetaion of the viewer. All of us in this group are here because we like the music. Somewhere along the way we all heard something that your wife didn't in this music. And that is the question. Yes it is a personal question, but it will result in interesting answers. >- > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:41:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re: Content in music On Wed, 13 May 1998, Eric C. Honour, Jr. wrote: > I don't agree, though that the sounds do not carry any content at all. > There are all the (simple or complex) relationships between acoustics, > rhythm, pacing, and the like which actually exist in the real, physical > world. Oh, absolutely. I just wouldn't call this "content". It wouldn't be totally insane to think that the above is all you should consider when judging a work, just really extreme. Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:09:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Hamilton Subject: Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?) On Wed, 13 May 1998 peter_risser@cinfin.com wrote: > Most everyone schooled in the Western European tradition agrees that the 9th is > worth something, so for those who agree, it is, but if you hate Beethoven or > symphonies or choral music, or maybe you're some sort of "wild savage" in a > non-western country, it's worthless. I think this brushes over the fact that our judgements are usually set in the framework of a loose system of values. Within the context of such a system, it's not just down to whether I like something; I can make right or wrong judgements. So, if I hate Beethoven (and I do), I may still not be entitled to say his work is worthless, because, in the context of the value system I hold, the 9th might really be great stuff, whether I like it or not. So it's possible that Peter's just wrong about the value of Plunderphonics (or that his wife is, or that neither or both are). I also don't think it's obvious that people's value systems are all that different from one another, so real arguments about value are possible. Although often not worth the trouble. (But I daresay any musician who collaborates with other musicians has them all the time.) Chris Hamilton - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:45:40 PDT From: "Silent Watcher" Subject: Tom Cora recommendations needed Hello all, Sorry if this has been requested before (I'm sure it has), but some days I have to pick and choose what emails to read, and this subject wasn't relevant to me before. I just got a copy of the first Curlew album, and am absolutely amazed by Tom Cora's playing. I've only come into contact with it before on a few Zorn projects, but definitely none have quite stood out to me like this one has. The question is, can someone recommend some other solid albums that feature Cora as the centerpiece, or part of the centerpiece of the particular ensemble? Please respond privately, unless by some chance this hasn't come up before. Thanks in advance. SW For Sale/Want List and Bill Laswell discography at http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:27:02 -0500 From: James Hale Subject: Re: Baseball Ken Waxman wrote: > Right now, in > fact, David Murray, DD Jackson, Taj Mahal and, I think, another writer > are working on a musical based on the Negro League of the 1940s. It's Murray, Jackson, Taj, Butch Morris and Bob Weir of the Grateful Dead. The musical is about the life of Satchel Paige. James Hale - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:18:56 PDT From: "Scott Handley" Subject: brotzmann / e. parker "news" The following pertains the upcoming triple-album box by Peter Brotzmann and the upcoming double solo album by Evan Parker. I talked to Bruno Johnson of Okkadisk in Chicago this past weekend (I was visiting Chicago for the Empty Bottle Fest 1998), and it looks like the fabled three-CD Brotzmann Octet/Tentet box set is scheduled for this upcoming July. An awful lot of firepower, and from what I've heard, it really was a tremendous session w/ zero egotism and a net result indicative of the vast range of the project (my sources for this statement include, on different occasions, Mr. Johnson, Peter Brotzmann, Mats Gustafsson, Joe McPhee, Mars Williams, and Kent Kessler). Fred Lonberg-Holm, who is on the first Selfhaters record, is in the Tentet and contributed one of his "clock" compositions (??) to the session, though I don't know if it will appear on the release . There will be studio and live material. Also, Okka plans on releasing a double-disc of Evan Parker solos, and for those of you who were a bit underwhelmed by the Chicago tenor solos album (I was a bit uninterested myself), or for those who think we DON"T NEED ANOTHER SOLO ALBUM, I heard the man split time between solo tenor and solo soprano for an hour in Chicago a week ago, and NO RECORDING I've heard could have prepared me for the developemnt and intensity he's currently generating. This album should possibly be expected this year. Sorry if this seems like an ad (I'm not affiliated w/ Okka in any way), but I just thought these might be of significant interest to those of you who have followed or are interested in the careers of these great musicians. Thought I'd pass the word best I can. - --s ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:39:21 +0200 From: Yves Dewulf Subject: zorn goes drum'n'bass II Zorn goes drum & bass part II, Bill Laswell samples the piano in the beginning of Duras in the last track of his new oscillations 2 -album. (which makes it by far the best track on the album) YVes - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:21:27 +0200 From: Stefan Verstraeten Subject: where to get cassiber / ground zero Dear Zornies, I know about the discussion on the live cassiber album remixed by ground zero. But I have one little question: does anyone know where I can get this disc??? But since I live in Belgium (Europe), I'd prefer an online distributor (like forced exposure, DMG, ...) who might have this disc. You may email me privately in case this is a stupid question i.e. a question not interesting enough for the discussion list Thank you very much - -- Stefan Verstraeten - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:55:24 UT From: peter_risser@cinfin.com Subject: Re[2]:Why Zorn (or anyone else?) << I think this brushes over the fact that our judgements are usually set in the framework of a loose system of values. Within the context of such a system, it's not just down to whether I like something; I can make right or wrong judgements. So, if I hate Beethoven (and I do), I may still not be entitled to say his work is worthless, because, in the context of the value system I hold, the 9th might really be great stuff, whether I like it or not. So it's possible that Peter's just wrong about the value of Plunderphonics (or that his wife is, or that neither or both are). >> I can't be wrong about the value of Plunderphonics to me. That's impossible. I know what it's value is to me, and I know what it's value is in comparison to Beethoven's 9th, to me. My wife is also not wrong about the worth of Plunderphonics to her, zero. We are both correct in judging the value of the work in our own framework. That's undebatable. You are perfectly within your right to say Beethoven's work is worthless to you. How could anyone debate that? Can you debate it was influential in the framework of the entire western musical historical tradition? No. But even then, can anyone say that gives it worth? Not necessarily. Fifty years ago, people thought that Christopher Columbus was a great man, a figure worthy of praise. Ten years ago, everyone despised him as the great white oppressor, worthy only of scorn. Now we're somewhere in between, a bold guy, but with oppressive ideas. Whatever. His "worth" changed over time, and with public opinion. So, what I'm saying is, the societal concept of worth only comes from an aggregate of a lot of individuals' concept of worth, ie: Beethoven's 9th. Still worthless to you, but generally accepted as worthy, simply because so many people agree that it is. If all the sudden everybody on the planet agreed with you, it'd be worthless. << I also don't think it's obvious that people's value systems are all that different from one another, so real arguments about value are possible. Although often not worth the trouble. (But I daresay any musician who collaborates with other musicians has them all the time.) >> Hmm, I bet if we compared our top ten most worthy bands, we'd have very few common ones. ARguments are possible, but not worth the trouble, true, because I know what's good to me and you know what's good to you. Can't argue with that. You could argue the relative influence of something on society, or the interesting things about it, and that might influence how someone perceives that thing's worth, but that's about it. Peter - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:46:46 -0400 From: Marc Downing Subject: Re:Why Zorn (or anyone else?) >I think it is the HOW that determines the WHO and WHY of >music. Your wife may think it is noise, but she listens to it >differently than you. I love Cynical Hysteria Hour also, but probably >for different reasons. This is because music, as any art, is dependent >on personal experiences and interpetaion of the viewer. `...Most compositions lack a specific, agreed-upon reference to the contents of the world. But when we bring our own life situations to music, we can make of music what we will. Music idealizes emotions negative and positive alike. By so doing, it momentarily perfects our individual emotional lives. The "meaning" we feel is not in the music as such, but in our own responses to the world, responses that we carry about with us always. Music serves to perfect those responses, to make them beautiful. By so doing, music imparts dignity to experience that often is far from dignified. And by imparting pleasure even to negativbe emotions, music serves to justify sufferings large and small, assuring us that it has not all been for nothing. ... It is the force of our own lives that drives musical anticipation, and our own joys and pains that are rewarded by musical resolutions.' This is a quote from a book that Mark Saleski recommended to the list on Tuesday. Again, it's "Music, the Brain, and Ecstasy" by Robert Jourdain. Thanks, Mark. I bought it and so far think it's excellent. Marc - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:08:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Saidel Eric J Subject: Re: Re[2]:Why Zorn (or anyone else?) According to peter_risser@cinfin.com: > > You are perfectly within your right to say Beethoven's work is worthless to you. > How could anyone debate that? If "worthless to you" means "you don't like it" then no one could debate it. If "worthless to you" means - as Chris meant it - "without value in a system that structures your values," then anyone could debate it. > Can you debate it was influential in the framework of the entire western musical > historical tradition? No. But even then, can anyone say that gives it worth? > Not necessarily. Fifty years ago, people thought that Christopher Columbus was > a great man, a figure worthy of praise. Ten years ago, everyone despised him as > the great white oppressor, worthy only of scorn. Now we're somewhere in > between, a bold guy, but with oppressive ideas. Whatever. His "worth" changed > over time, and with public opinion. Hmm. It sounds like you're contradicting yourself. The 9th was - as you point out - influential (of worth) in the framework of the western musical tradition. That won't change, even if public opinion changes and we all agree with Chris that it's not an enjoyable piece of music. That other Chris (Columbus) didn't have his "worth" change with public opinion. What changed (if anything did) was public opinion about his worth. Claims, for example, that he's worthy only of scorn are claims about him and his acts, and they are meant to apply to him timelessly. This, I think, is important: these are not claims that he is worthy of scorn today, but won't be tomorrow when "public opinion" changes. They are claims that he always was and always will be worthy of scorn. Our recognition of this worthiness may change. (Compare to claims that the earth is spherical: the shape of the earth doesn't change with changing public opinion; the earth has been spherical as long as there has been public opinion about its shape, and it'll remain so, despite opinion to the contrary.) > So, what I'm saying is, the societal concept of worth only comes from an > aggregate of a lot of individuals' concept of worth, ie: Beethoven's 9th. Still > worthless to you, but generally accepted as worthy, simply because so many > people agree that it is. If all the sudden everybody on the planet agreed with > you, it'd be worthless. Again, no. The 9th is of value not because so many people agree it is, but because it is influential in shaping the framework (or whatever determines something's value). There is a difference between saying a work is good and saying "I like it". That's how many of us are able to recognize that some works of art are good, even though we don't like them. Or the contrary, recognize that a work is bad, even though we like it (think "guilty pleasure"). - - eric - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:12:06 -0400 From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) Subject: Re: Tom Cora recommendations needed >>>>> "Silent" == Silent Watcher writes: Silent> Hello all, Sorry if this has been requested before (I'm Silent> sure it has), but some days I have to pick and choose what Silent> emails to read, and this subject wasn't relevant to me Silent> before. I just got a copy of the first Curlew album, and Silent> am absolutely amazed by Tom Cora's playing. I've only Silent> come into contact with it before on a few Zorn projects, Silent> but definitely none have quite stood out to me like this Silent> one has. The question is, can someone recommend some Silent> other solid albums that feature Cora as the centerpiece, Silent> or part of the centerpiece of the particular ensemble? The Skeleton Crew albums, just Cora and Fred Frith, are an excellent starting point. I think there were two albums, most of which have been released together on one CD. - --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions... funny thing about opinions, they can change. Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 98 10:02:56 -0500 From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu Subject: Gary Lucas Radio Broadcast NYC area z-listers might be interested to tune in to WNYC's New Sounds program this evening at 11:00 PM (93.9). Gary Lucas will be performing what he described as "a blistering set" of pieces from 'Busy Being Born' (recorded a couple of days ago). Brian Olewnick - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:14:36 +0200 From: "Stephane Vuilleumier" Subject: Fw: Tom Cora recommendations needed The mention of Skeleton Crew prompts me to add that the CD reissue (lacking 2 rather anecdotic tracks) is apparently also out of print. There is a really interesting recent collection of samples by Fred Frith and Tom Cora (from the not-yet-quite-ready current versions of Tom's and Fred's discographies) called ETYMOLOGY: 95 tracks of 1-12 samples each (with individual names!), meant for use in sound design I guess. In the case of Tom's solo tracks, painfully/beautifully recognizable, pure Tom Cora cello sound. There is a website to check this out (beware: the CD's not cheap) http://www.rarefaction.com it also has a short biography of Cora and Frith. Stephane - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 107 - ETYMOLOGY: Fred Frith, Tom Cora, Skeleton Crew Recorded at the Koeinverhuurbdrijf Studio, Purmerland (Netherlands) during Fall 1995 Produced by Tom Dimuzio Fred Frith (1-54): guitar, electromagnetic translations; Tom Cora (37-95): cello, cello resonated objects. 1997 - Rarefaction (USA), RF13 (CD) 1997 - Rarefaction (USA), RF12 (CD-ROM) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Calob Deupree suggested (server crashed, message gone): > the two Skeleton Crew albums >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Silent Watcher >>To: zorn-list@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Thursday, 14. Mai 1998 04:48 >>Subject: Tom Cora recommendations needed >> >>can someone >>recommend some other solid albums that feature Cora as the centerpiece, >>or part of the centerpiece of the particular ensemble? - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V2 #370 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest" in the commands above with "zorn-list". Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date. Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com