From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest) To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #699 Reply-To: zorn-list Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Zorn List Digest Wednesday, January 23 2002 Volume 03 : Number 699 In this issue: - Re: Spy vs. Spy Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #698 a person without qualities Re: New Dave Douglas album Re: Sonny Clark trib. album Re: New Dave Douglas album Re: New Dave Douglas album A few recent topics and a question for non-musicians. Re: Journalism, Free Jazz, Ornette, etc. Re: Sonny Clark trib. album Re: Harmobabble Re: Spy Vs Spy Re: Sonny Clark Memorial Re:A question for non-musicians. Sonny Clark RE: a person without qualities Re: Spy Vs Spy Re: Spy Vs Spy Re: Dolphy rumor (was something about Ornette) nimbus indian set Barry Adamson/ Pan Sonic Re: who understands harmolodics? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:17:57 -0500 From: "Dave Smey" Subject: Re: Spy vs. Spy > To the second > point, after each composition's head, how is that the > music of Ornette Coleman? I mean, Zorn brings his > skronk to the table, but it just doesn't seem to have > anything to do with the kind of group interplay, and > the relationship of the soloists (if, really, there is > such a thing in Ornette's music) to the rhythm > section. It seems that Ornette did a few spastic everybody-pile-on-at-once tracks in his day. A few cuts on that bizarre Metheny project, "Song X" used to remind me of Spy v. Spy, for example. Seeing Prime Time live (on the Tone Dialing tour, I think) was also a similarly visceral, loud experience. And there is plenty of group interaction on Spy v. Spy, which is quite amazing given how active and loud the whole thing is. It's amazing that Dresser could even function. More importantly, I do think Ornette is a strong influence on Zorn's playing -- in his basic tone, in a lot of the gestures he does, and his general melodic conception (which is a lot less "angular" than many post-bop horn players). But then again as a teen I basically went backwards from Spy v. Spy to Ornette, so I'm going to hear Ornette differently because of that. > I don't know, I get a kick out of the > record, but it seems like a pretty sophomoric shock > tactic (and I'm normally perfectly happy with shock as > a strategy, or as a response/reaction), a one-trick > pony, and not even good at what it tries to do, on its > own terms (i.e. shock, overwhelm, and, um, play > Ornette's music, 95% is an imporvised dynamic overseen > by harmolodics, whatever those are...and I mean that > respectfully, not dismissively). The funny thing is that it no longer shocks or overwhelms me, and thus I can hear lots of stuff in it. The speed and volume just make it more fun. I LOVE this record, it's one of my favorites. >...so little does it offer that > can't be had elsewhere, better. So can you give me some specific "if you like that, you'll love this..." recommendations? - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:56:15 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #698 DDvbSaid: you'll find more girls with Kenny's Christmas favorites than you will with Ascension ...maybe, but you'll find better girls with ascension. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:00:25 +0000 From: "Kurt Gottschalk" Subject: a person without qualities i'm listening to the fushitsusha double live (psf 15-16) for the first time in a long time, and while i think it's a great record, i'm surprised at how it's heralded compared to some of the others. i really think they've just gotten better -- more shimmer'n'sheen, more imperative than explosive, something... while i'm talking (and i'm talking alot today, it seems) does anyone know where there's a handy fushitsusha discography that includes personnel? i was looking for shoji hano records in my bins last night, but sadly some don't include personnel in a language i know how to read. also, the bassist (whose name i've never managed to learn) is really remarkable. what has be done outside the fushits? kurt _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:02:01 -0500 From: Mike Chamberlain Subject: Re: New Dave Douglas album on 1/21/02 8:52 AM, James Hale at jhale@sympatico.ca wrote: > It's great to hear this group after the experience of NOT hearing the trio > of Mengelberg, Bennink and Douglas at their debut performance at the Guelph > Jazz Festival a couple of years ago. There seemed to be lots of interesting > things going on at that show (and Dave said he enjoyed it), but since Misha > refused to be mic'ed and Han was in one of his over-the-top moods it was > hard to tell. > You should have sat right beside Misha, as I did. The mix was great from there. :-)))) - --Mike - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:22:56 From: "William York" Subject: Re: Sonny Clark trib. album >Zorn's Sonny Clark record sucks, though, No, it doesn't. >Skronk over a solid hardbop rhythm section: one-trick pony. A very low percentage of Zorn's playing on this could be considered 'skronk'. 5-10% maybe. That's just a straight-ahead jazz record played the way those guys would play it -- not a pastiche. ("We play this music b/c we love it," etc. I think it's great, one of my favorite Zorn albums, saxophone wise. Some great drum solos by Previte, too. Cheers, WY _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:28:08 -0500 From: James Hale Subject: Re: New Dave Douglas album Mike Chamberlain wrote: > You should have sat right beside Misha, as I did. The mix was great from > there. :-)))) Yeah, and you didn't get a drumstick in the head, either. James - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:57:31 -0500 From: Mike Chamberlain Subject: Re: New Dave Douglas album on 1/22/02 6:28 PM, James Hale at jhale@sympatico.ca wrote: > Mike Chamberlain wrote: > >> You should have sat right beside Misha, as I did. The mix was great from >> there. :-)))) > > Yeah, and you didn't get a drumstick in the head, either. > Is that supposed to be an excuse for something? - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:00:18 EST From: User384726@aol.com Subject: A few recent topics and a question for non-musicians. - --part1_103.f7a825c.297f6522_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I'd first like to thank Mr. Rizzi for all he's done and I'm for anything that will make his life easier. First I'd like to comment on the Sonny Clark album. I really love a lot of the playing on this album. It took me a while to get into it because I was expecting (this was my first error) an album more like the News for Lulu stuff. While the Clark album is more conservative it has some very wonderful soloing (particularly in Nicely). I'd also like to put in my short two cents on the Indian Music and suggest the Kronos Quartet's Short Stories album. This has one of the few easily available recordings of the singer Prandit Pran Nath who taught Composers Terry Riley and La Monte Young and the phenomenal author Walter Mathieu (The Harmonic Experience is one of the greatest books ever written on Harmony and intonation). The piece is only 11 minutes but the singing is well worth it. Finally for all the non-musician what is it that attracts you to the avant-garde music? Are there any pieces/albums/composers that you remember to be your starting point? What makes something "sound good" to you? Is there anything you wish more musicians would do or anything we should stop doing? Any answers would help. I sometimes feel trapped being a musician since my ears have a certain knowledge and vocabulary ingrained (though there's a lot I don't know/understand). Thanks to all, Aaron Solomon - --part1_103.f7a825c.297f6522_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all,
I'd first like to thank Mr. Rizzi for all he's done and I'm for anything that will make his life easier.  
First I'd like to comment on the Sonny Clark album.  I really love a lot of the playing on this album.  It took me a while to get into it because I was expecting (this was my first error) an album more like the News for Lulu stuff.  While the Clark album is more conservative it has some very wonderful soloing (particularly in Nicely).  
I'd also like to put in my short two cents on the Indian Music and suggest the Kronos Quartet's Short Stories album.  This has one of the few easily available recordings of the singer Prandit Pran Nath who taught Composers Terry Riley and La Monte Young and the phenomenal author Walter Mathieu (The Harmonic Experience is one of the greatest books ever written on Harmony and intonation). The piece is only 11 minutes but the singing is well worth it.  
Finally for all the non-musician what is it that attracts you to the avant-garde music?  Are there any pieces/albums/composers that you remember to be your starting point?  What makes something "sound good" to you?  Is there anything you wish more musicians would do or anything we should stop doing?  Any answers would help.  I sometimes feel trapped being a musician since my ears have a certain knowledge and vocabulary ingrained (though there's a lot I don't know/understand).  

Thanks to all,
Aaron Solomon - --part1_103.f7a825c.297f6522_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:06:49 -0800 From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" Subject: Re: Journalism, Free Jazz, Ornette, etc. >>>I'm also unsatisfied with the division of labor between writer/critic/listener and musician, and between feeling and thinking, and between language and other formal structures which are somehow considered more immediate.<<< I find music most satisfying which appeals to thinking, feeling, intuition, and sensation. I think artists like Cecil Taylor, Ornette Coleman, and Anthony Braxton are among the best at firing up all four cylinders on my little deuce coupe even if we don't know what they got. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:12:31 EST From: Dgasque@aol.com Subject: Re: Sonny Clark trib. album In a message dated Tue, 22 Jan 2002 6:23:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, "William York" writes: > >Zorn's Sonny Clark record sucks, though, > > No, it doesn't. Sucks? Man, that's one of my favorite Zorn albums. > > >Skronk over a solid hardbop rhythm section: one-trick pony. > > A very low percentage of Zorn's playing on this could be considered > 'skronk'. 5-10% maybe. That's just a straight-ahead jazz record played the > way those guys would play it -- not a pastiche. ("We play this music b/c we > love it," etc. I think it's great, one of my favorite Zorn albums, saxophone > wise. Some great drum solos by Previte, too. > Agreed. I hear a very low "skronk" level on this album. - -- np: Dr. Laura (I'm at work and outnumbered. Geeze, this woman is an idiot...) =dg= - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:03:53 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Harmobabble > Ornette's harmolodic improvising style, is/are the player(s) > improvising horizontally, on the melodic line - regardless of > how it relates to the key or chord progression. Does this > make sense to anyone else, or have I completely missed the > boat and fallen off the dock? That's it in its simplest form, improvising on the melodic line rather than on the harmony. But it is also noteworthy that in this music the harmony is generally freed up a lot so the piece's harmony is just as harmonically open as its melody - hence the meshing of the two to make 'harmolodics'... - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:04:57 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Spy Vs Spy I think that Zorn's intention with Spy Vs Spy was to have a similar impact at that time to Coleman's at his time, hence the 'hardcore' treatment which doesn't necessarily seem related to Coleman (apart from the few examples given by another Zorn-lister). It's sort of meant to get the listener to say 'what the...?' like they might have when Coleman hit the scene... - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:07:39 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Sonny Clark Memorial Wasn't the Sonny Clark Memorial Album actually Wayne Horvitz's? Anyway, I think one of the most interesting things for me about this album is that Zorn hasn't fully developed his set of 'licks' yet and so we get some quite original playing from him, while later on Masada and a few other things it can get quite samey... - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 02:09:06 +0000 From: "thomas chatterton" Subject: Re:A question for non-musicians. >From: User384726@aol.com >Finally for all the non-musician what is it that attracts you to the >avant-garde music? The sound of new. Are there any pieces/albums/composers that you remember >to be your starting point? Varese (Ameriques), Xenakis (Orient-Occident), Berio (Omaggio A Joyce), Sun Ra (Heliocentric Worlds), Pink Floyd (Piper At The Gates Of Dawn) all on records available at the local public library when I was a teenager. Plus the Nihilist Spasm Band live every Monday night at the only bar where I could go and drink underaged! >What makes something "sound good" to you? I know what I like. >Is there anything you wish more musicians would do or anything we should >stop >doing? Explore and play more outside their field of expertise; stop obsessing about technical details and ability. Get the feeling... np: Shaggs Philosophy Of The Western World _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:17:45 EST From: Samerivertwice@aol.com Subject: Sonny Clark Just had to chime in to say that the Sonny Clark memorial album in no way sucks. It might not be as groundbreaking or out there or avant or whatever buzzword/phrase people use to describe "original" music, but it is a damn fine, grooving, fun album. Tom np: ICP Orchestra -- Jubilee Varia (Hatology 528) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:30:13 -0800 From: "Benito Vergara" Subject: RE: a person without qualities > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Kurt Gottschalk > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 3:00 PM > while i'm talking (and i'm talking alot today, it seems) does anyone know > where there's a handy fushitsusha discography that includes > personnel? http://www.planetc.com/users/keffer/haino/ will answer all your questions. Later, Ben http://members.tripod.com/~tamad2/ ICQ/AIM: thewilyfilipino - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:31:43 -0800 From: "Rev. Floyd Errors" Subject: Re: Spy Vs Spy >>>I think that Zorn's intention with Spy Vs Spy was to have a similar impact at that time to Coleman's at his time, hence the 'hardcore' treatment which doesn't necessarily seem related to Coleman (apart from the few examples given by another Zorn-lister). It's sort of meant to get the listener to say 'what the...?' like they might have when Coleman hit the scene...<<< Or maybe his intent was to create beauty. - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 14:44:26 +1100 From: "Julian" Subject: Re: Spy Vs Spy > Or maybe his intent was to create beauty. I wouldn't bet on it - I remember the stories of live shows where people walked out deafened and if this wasn't happening Zorn would encourage the sound man to turn it up... and before anyone responds, yes I know he was joking, but it certainly proves the point... - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:00:20 -0700 (MST) From: PARROTT MATTHEW J Subject: Re: Dolphy rumor (was something about Ornette) On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, thomas chatterton wrote: > >From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki (S)" > > >...i heard this rumor that Dolphy worked out some circles or cycles which > >describe the harmonic content of his music. According to my source, > >Coltrane was privy as was Yusef Latif. > > I believe Coltrane had worked out some circular chart that showed chordal > and/or harmonic relationships, I don't know if this was related to Dolphy's > work. > > P.S. Not being a musician it is difficult sometimes to engage in technical > discussions about complex musical forms; however it does make listening a > hell of a lot easier... > dr. lateef includes both dolphy's synthetic formations and 'trane's circle chart of tones. neither of which are explained in dr. lateef's "repository of scales and melodic patterns. he does work out some variations on the synthetic formations of dolphy, and hints at a harmonic context. dolphy's formation is basically a tone row with 11 notes. it seems that the pattern is some derivitive, but i haven't looked at it closely enough yet. trane's circle chart shows various situations where 'C' can be implicated around other keys. It is basically a visualization of 'giant steps'. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:00:55 EST From: Acousticlv@aol.com Subject: nimbus indian set << While I'd generally agree with this, there's a fairly recent collection called the Raga Guide (Nimbus 5536/9) which, over the course of four CDs, presents 74 Hindustani ragas. >> hi gang i dont have this one, which im told is superb. but also want to tell you that the nimbus label has just gone into receivership and that distributor allegro is soon going to be sending back all numbus releases to the uk. their website offers nice discounts. steve koenig n.p. bax string quartets- naxos- Steve Koenig - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:54:54 +1100 From: "Adam Rock" Subject: Barry Adamson/ Pan Sonic Can anyone tell me what the Barry Adamson/ Pan Sonic album "Motorlab #3" is like? Thanks, Adam - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 07:20:42 -0600 From: "Samuel Quentin" Subject: Re: who understands harmolodics? ah, i find all this ornette conversation very interesting and informative. so nice to hear so many different views. question: what is meant by all this 'symmetrical time' stuff? does this just mean an odd instead of even number of bars in a tune, or what? thanks, Samuel But extending the tradition by EXTENDING RATHER THAN IGNORING the tactical practice is where the innovation comes in, whether you're bringing an electric guitar to a style that never had one before [such as T-Bone Walker did] or doing away with symmetrical time as a tracable pulse within the music [as Tristano did].) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - - ------------------------------ End of Zorn List Digest V3 #699 ******************************* To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to "majordomo@lists.xmission.com" with "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest" in the body of the message. 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