[This document about Adam God was offered on the internet a few years ago. I do not know it's author, but would surely give them credit if they simply write me. email@example.com The Adam God document arrived to me in a Zip format and seemed to have duplicate sections. I cleaned it up as much as I could. I added the (sp. ____) where I noticed misspelled words. Also British or old world spellings were retained as in the original. Underlining is also maintained from the original. The table that is linked here and at the bottom was originally at the top, but due it's all caps nature, not being easy on the eyes, I put it on a separate Adam God page.]
"Concepts & Quotations Dealing with the Origin, Identity & Position of Adam & Eve"
78. Journal of Wilford Woodruff; Church Historical Department, Ms/f/115; January 27, 1860.
Minutes of a meeting of the Presidency & Twelve[,] Presidents of Seventies and other assembled in President Young's Council Room at 6 o'clock. * * * President Young stated the object of the meeting was to converse upon doctrinal points to see if we see alike. I pray that we may have the spirit of God to rest upon us that our minds may be upon the subject & that we may speak by the Holy Spirit. He then called upon A. Carrington to read a sermon, he read it before the company, a piece prepared for the press written by Orson Pratt upon the Godhead. He claimed that it was the attributes of God that he worshipped and not the person & that he worshipped those attributes whether he found them in God, Jesus Christ, Adam, Moses, the Apostles, Joseph, Brigham or in anybody else. After the document was read, President Young then called upon the Twelve to express their feelings upon the subject. He called upon O Hyde to speak & he called upon J. Taylor to speak. He spoke a short time. No one knew at the time (except the President & Carrington) who the author of the document was. Brother Taylor said he did not see it in that light. He worshiped a personage and not the attributes, he thought God was located and could not worship the attributes in anybody. President Young then called a vote of the assembly and said if you understand this to be a correct doctrine as here written I wish you manifest it by saying yes. No one spoke. President Young then said do I worship attributes or the dispenser of these attributes. I worship the dispenser of them of these attributes and not the attributes. This is O Pratt's sermon prepared for the press. I do not want to have it published if it is not right. Brother Orson worships the attributes of God but not God. * * * Orson Pratt has differed from me in many things. But this is a great principle & I do not wish to say you shall do so and so. I do not know of a man who has a mathematical turn of mind but what goes too far. The trouble between Orson Pratt & me is I do not know enough & he knows too much. * * * When I read O Pratt's views in the Seer I could not swallow it. * * * There is not a man in the Church that can preach better than Orson Pratt upon any subject which he understands. It is music to hear him, but the trouble is he will preach upon things he does not know a thing about and then he will preach false doctrine & so will Elder Hyde. He preaches upon the resurrection & teaches things which are not true. * * * Erastus Snow said . . . I cannot see things in the same light that Orson Pratt does, but when President Young has taught doctrine it has always tasted good to me. * * * Orson Pratt said I will speak upon this subject. . . . I have no excuses to make. President Young said I ought to make a confession. But Orson Pratt is not a man to make a confession of what I do not believe. I am not going to crawl to Brigham Young and act the hypocrite and confess what I do not believe. I will be a free man. President Young condemns my doctrines to be false. I do not believe them to be false which I publish in the Seer in England. It has been said we should let those things sleep. But you do not let them sleep. If I had thought while in England that President Young worshipped a God without attributes I would not have written what I did (The above remark was an unkind cut in Orson Pratt he should not have said it). But I do not believe it, yet I will not act the hypocrite. It may cost me my fellowship, but I will stick to it; if I die tonight I would say O Lord God Almighty I believe what I say.
Elder John Taylor spoke at some length and tried to convince Orson Pratt of his error. President Young said Orson Pratt has started out upon false premises to argue upon. His foundation has been a false one all the time and I will prove it false. You have been like a mad stubborn mule, and have taken a false position in order to accuse me. You have accused me of worshipping a stalk or stone or a dead body without life or attributes. You never heard such a doctrine taught by me or any leader of the Church. It is as false as hell, and you will not hear the last of it soon. You know it is false. Do we worship those attributes? No, we worship God because he has all those attributes and is the dispenser of them and because he is our Father & our God. Orson Pratt puts down a lie to argue upon. He has had false ground all the time tonight. There never was a time or eternity but what a God did exist and a God that had children upon the same principle that children are now begotten, and I was begotten by the God I worship who reigns in the heavens and I shall also in my turn reign as a God & so will you.
O Hyde said to O Pratt, my opinion is not worth as much to me as my fellowship in this Church.
President Young said, Michael was a resurrected Being and he left Eloheim and came to this earth & with an immortal body, & continued so till he partook of earthly food and begot children who were mortal (keep this to yourselves) then they died. A Carrington spoke upon the subject a short time and made some useful remarks.
President Young spoke upon the subject of O. Pratt laying down false principles to work upon. * * * President H C Kimball followed President Young and said, Brother Orson Pratt has withstood Joseph and he has withstood Brother Brigham many times and he has done it tonight and it made my blood chill. It is not for you to lead, but to be led by him. You have not the power to dictate but to be dictated. W. Woodruff arose and said Brother Orson Pratt I wish to ask you one or two questions. You see that the spirit and doctrine which you possess is entirely in opposition to the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and all who are present this evening, and it chills the blood in our veins to hear your words & feel your spirit. Should not this be a guidance to you that you are wrong. What would become of the Quorum of the Twelve if we all felt as you do. We should all go to hell in a pile together. You say you are honest in the course you are pursuing. I wish to ask you if you were honest when you said that if you had known that President Young worshipped a God without life or attributes that you would not have written what you did. (O Pratt said, I will recall that). It was an insult to President Young and the Holy Priesthood which he holds. Every man in this room who has a particle of the spirit of God, knows that Pres. Young is a Prophet of God and that God sustains him and he has the Holy Spirit and his doctrines are true, and that he is qualifying to lead the people and he has explained everything so plain this evening that a child can understand it, and yet it is no evidence to you. Nothing can make an impression upon you, no argument can reach your understanding. But Brother Orson I have seen the day when you were in sorrow. It was when you were cast out of your Quorum and out of the Church and that to, in consequence of persuing (sp. persuing) the same course you are this evening. Then you could both see, feel & understand. Then argument could reach you when you saw your glory and crown departing from you. I beg of you to reflect and not let your will carry you too far in these things. It would be better for us not to be able to cast up a simple sum in addition and be humble before the Lord, than to have ever so much knowledge & permit that knowledge to lead us to destruction. There are but few men upon earth upon whom God has bestowed such gifts, qualifications and reasoning powers as he has upon you, and he will hold you responsible for the use you make of them, and you should not make a wreck of your salvation for contending for things which you do not understand[.] I do feel at this advanced state of the Church and the late day and wish the information which you possess that neither you nor your Brethren ought to be troubled with false doctrine. Neither should you cause your Brethren to listen to such a scene of things as we have heard tonight or to insult the president of this Church as you have done. Although you are unbending in your will tonight the day is not far distant when you will be glad to bend to the president of this Church and make reconciliation. * * *
Orson Hyde spoke upon the subject and said Brother Pratt had not got the spirit of God. He was followed by C. C. Rich who backed up the testimony of the Twelve in saying that Orson Pratt was wrong. E. T. Benson spoke upon the same subject and said if Brother Pratt had the confidence in President Young which he ought to have he would feel different. If he had the confidence in his Brethren which he should have I know he would feel different. President Young said I will tell you how I got along with Joseph. I found out that God called Joseph to be a Prophet. I did not do it. I then said I will leave the Prophet in the hands of that God who called and ordained him to be a Prophet. He is not responsible to me and it is none of my business what he does. It is for me to follow & obey him. * * *
Joseph once told me to go to his own house to attend a meeting with him. He said that he would not go without me. I went and Hyrum preached upon the Bible, Book of Mormon, & Doctrine & Covenants and said we must take them as our guide alone. He preached very lengthy until he nearly wearied the people out, when he closed. Joseph told me to get up. I did so. I took the Books and piled them all up on top of each other. I then said that I would not give the ashes of a rye straw for all those books for my salvation without the living oracles. I should follow and obey the living oracles for my salvation instead of any thing else. When I got through, Hyrum got up and made a confession for not including the living oracles.
It may be thought strange by the Brethren that I will still fellowship Elder Pratt after what he has said, but I shall do it. I am determined to whip Brother Pratt into it and make him work in the harness. * * *
F D Richards dismissed the meeting. xxx return to 78
On the 26th of January, in the Tabernacle, Elder Orson Pratt, Sen., addressed the Saints; and, through an oversight, a portion of his remarks was printed in Vol. IX. No. 51. of The Deseret News, previous to being carefully revised. Since then those remarks have been examined by br. Pratt and the Council, and are now printed as agreed upon by them, as follows:-
(Here insert said "Remarks,")
Elder Pratt sustains an unimpeachable character, so far as strict morality, tried integrity, industry, energy, zeal, faithfulness to his religion, and honesty in all business transactions are concerned; but it will be readily perceived, from his "Remarks," that he does not claim exemption from liability to err in judgment in relation to "some points of doctrine." Br. Pratt's preachings and teaching upon the first principles of the Gospel are excellent.
With regard to the quotations and comments in The Seer as to Adam's having been formed "out of the ground," and "from the dust of the ground," &c., it is deemed wisest to let that subject remain without further explanation at present, for it is written that we are to receive "line upon line," according to our faith and capacities, and the circumstances attending our progress.
In the Seer, pages 24 and 25, par. 22, br Pratt states:- "All these Gods are equal in power, in glory, in dominion, and in the possession of all things; each possesses a fulness of truth, of knowledge, of wisdom, of light, of intelligence; each governs himself in all things by his own attributes, and is filled with love, goodness, mercy, and justice towards all. The fullness of all these attributes is what constitutes God." "It is truth, light, and love, that we worship and adore; these are the same in all worlds; and as these constitute God, He is the same in all worlds;" "Wherever you find a fulness of wisdom, knowledge, truth, goodness, love, and such like qualities, there you find God in all his glory, power, and majesty - therefore, if you worship theses adorable perfections, you worship God."
Seer, page 117, par. 95.- "then there will be no Being or Beings in existence that will know one particle more than what we know; then our knowledge, and wisdom, and power will be infinite; and cannot, from thenceforth, be increased or expanded in the least degree;" Same page, par. 96:- "but when they" (the Saints) "become one with the Father and Son and receive a fullness of their glory, that will be the end of all progression in Knowledge, because there will be nothing more to be learned. The Father and the Son do not progress in knowledge and wisdom, because they already know all things past, present, and to come." Par. 97:- "there are none among them (the Gods) that are in advance of the others in knowledge; though some may have been Gods as many millions of years as there are particles of dust in all the universe, yet there is not one truth that such are in possession of but what every other God knows." "None of these Gods are progressing in knowledge: neither can they progress in the acquirement of any truth."
In this treatise entitled "Great First Cause," page 16, par. 17, br Pratt states:- "All the organizations of worlds, of minerals, of vegetables, of animals, of men, of angels, of spirits, and of the spiritual personages of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, must, if organized at all, have been the result of the self combinations and unions of the pre-existent, intelligent, powerful, and eternal particles of substance. These eternal Forces and Powers are the Great Causes of all things and events that have had a beginning."
The foregoing quoted ideas, and all similar ones omitted to be quoted, with the comments thereon, as advanced by br. Pratt in an article, in the Seer, entitled "Pre-Existence of man," and in his treatises entitled absurdities of immaterialism and "Great First Cause," are plausibly presented. But to the whole subject we will answer in the words of the Apostle Joseph Smith, on a similar occasion. One of the Elders of Israel had written a long revelation which he deemed to be very important, and requested br. Joseph to hear him read it. The Prophet commended its style in glowing terms, remarked that the ideas were ingeniously advanced, &c., &c., and that he had but one objection to it. "What is that"? inquired the writer, greatly elated that his production was considered so near perfect. The Prophet Joseph replied, "It is not true."
This should be a lasting lesson to the Elders of Israel not to undertake to teach doctrine they do not understand. If the Saints can preserve themselves in a present salvation day by day which is easy to be taught and comprehended, it will be well with them hereafter.
Heber C. Kimball
Daniel H. Wells Back to ag 84 xxx link ======================
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(subject to change based on better information).
All opinions are mine and mine alone, and represent
my thinking at this point in time,
All original writings of mine are just that, to reproduce, forward or use, parts or whole, you need to get permission from me first.
Spellings constructed for effect and to confound the ridged. ;)
©1996 by Perry L. Porter. All copyrights are maintained by any parties (individual or corporate) which may have originally created any of the information or artwork contained herein. If you see your work, and I've mistakenly not given you or your company credit, please E-mail me, I'll gladly add the appropriate credit, if you feel it's necessary.