K-TALK
LDS Apologist Van Hale on Power of Discernment
Van Hale hosts his own Salt Lake area radio program called "Mormon Miscellaneous."
On September 25th, 2005 Mr. Hale discussed the Mark Hofmann fiasco.
One caller asked how church leaders with the Gift of the Holy Ghost
and the Power of Discernment could not detect such a blatant and dangerous
fruad.
After examination by top church leaders, including the prophet, the
church purchased numerous fake documents from forger Mark Hofmann. See
photo from the Church News:
"The gift
of discernment enables a bishop or branch president to know truth, to
understand the differences between good and evil, and even to know what
is in a person’s heart. Because he has this gift, we can seek his
counsel and he can tell us what the Lord would have us do to grow spiritually."
- Official LDS Church Manual "Duties and Blessings
of the Priesthood", Part A, History and Organization of the Priesthood,
8: Duties of the Bishop and the Branch President, 57
Transcript
of Van Hale's statement regarding the lack of discernment by LDS Church
leaders
Caller: ... The fact remains, you know, for me and for
my friend, who is handicapped, by the way, the, um, that, you know,
an Elder was allowed to get away with a crime and you know, obviously,
as far as any power of discernment or spiritual ability to weed out
nefarious people, you know, it obviously doesn't exist for Mormon leaders,
any more than it does for any other human being.
...
Van Hale: This idea that the church leaders have
something equivalent to a crystal ball that allows them to discern anything
that they might choose is something that has never been suggested nor
advocated, as far as I am aware of, anywhere by LDS Church leaders.
And the idea that they somehow supercede the uh, human ability in this
regard is something that has not been a principle subscribed to.
There is no concept that LDS leaders are somehow
omniscient. I don’t know where you would come up with something
like that. And the idea of discernment is, uh, is something
that has not been specifically defined as a leader having the ability
to determine whether somebody has, has committed an indiscretion or
a crime or something like that. I’m not aware of any, any time
in LDS history where the church leadership has taken the position that
somebody through spiritual discernment can determine whether somebody
has committed a crime and that the person should be dealt with on the
basis of that person’s, of that leader’s spiritual discernment.
That just simply is, that’s the reason for church courts and I’m
not aware of any situation where anyone has been considered to be guilty
of a civil crime because of the, that somebody’s claimed spiritual
discernment. So I think you’re, you’re presenting something
that is a fabrication that has no real foundation.
C: That’s not true. I’ve just gone to the LDS web
site. The church’s official web site. And typed in “discernment”
and it’s come up with 44 Conference addresses in which various
church leaders, including presidents of the church, are talking about
the gift of discernment, that they or other priesthood holders, like
bishops, stake presidents and, of course, themselves, have.
So any of your listeners are, you know, perfectly free to go to the
LDS official web site and find that out and you know, talk with Latter
Day Saints. For generations, it’s been a common belief
amongst the rank and file that because of the power of the priesthood
and the gift of the Holy Ghost and the mantle of the calling, as it’s
known, you know, these individuals receive, as part of accepting the
great responsibility of church leadership positions, um, that they have,
you know, the keys of revelation and one of those keys is the gift of
discernment to be able to spiritually identify wicked, unrighteous,
nefarious people.
VH: I think you’re missing my point on that. For example, are
you aware of some of these high profile situations; for example, the
Robert Blake trial, the Simpson trial. Are you aware of church leaders
through spiritual discernment identifying who is, whether these individuals
were guilty or not guilty?
I mean, that’s simply, what you’re asking for is something
I haven’t encountered in LDS Church history where a church leader
has claimed that through spiritual discernment we don’t need to
have any kind of church court or church trials or anything of that nature
because of spiritual discernment. The records of the church are filled
with all kinds of trials in which people were called upon to testify
and matters were dealt with in that manner rather than just somebody
saying I have received a revelation and you are guilty of adultery and
you are excommunicated from the church.
C: Yeah, well that’s, I, agree with you. I mean, obviously...
VH: OK, thank you.
C: ...legal processes, in the sense that, you know, legal processes,
investigations...
VH: Uh...
C: ...relying on science...
VH: Uh, we’ve got to break, We’re....
C: Sure. Thanks for your time.
[ News/commercial break]
VH: My name is Van Hale and my guest this evening is George Throckmorton.
We do have lines available. We’re prepared to hear your comments
or questions. If you would like to call in with a question or comment
or send an email, we’re prepared to incorporate that into our
discussion this evening. {Gives call-in numbers}.
VH: OK, just pursuing what, who, I just want to make one last
comment about this topic brought up by our caller before the news, in
his reference to the LDS leaders’ claiming to have this power
of discernment and they should, therefore, have known about the claims
of Mark Hoffman, should have known that he was a fraud, that his documents
were fraudulent and this sort of an argument.
Just one thought that occurred to me when we went to the news, Jesus
indicated in his comments, that we find in the New Testament, he made
the comment that the gospel net gathers of all kinds and he was referring
to, giving a metaphor that referred to the fishing that went on. Fishermen
would throw in a net, they’d pull out the net and they would then
sort out the fish. There were some good fish and some bad fish. He also
used the metaphor of the wheat and tares. And the wheat and tares grew
together, it was hard to tell them apart. And that was Jesus’
metaphor was that within the church, within those who accepted his message,
there were those who were the wheat and the tares and those would be
sorted out in the end.
And Joseph Smith picked up on that same statement, teaching of Jesus,
and indicated that within the church that the church gathers of all
kinds and so this idea that somehow the church leaders had the discernment
and they knew or they know that those who belong in the church from
those who don’t, that just simply is not the {laughs} it’s
just never been the case in LDS history. There has never been a situation
where the church leaders have said, have identified people and said
that these people are guilty of crimes, guilty of transactions and so
forth that haven’t come to light and we’re going to excommunicate
these or dismiss these people from the church. So this idea
that the caller was bringing up I think simply doesn’t show any
merit or have any substance as we look back in the position and thinking
of Latter Day Saint leaders from the beginning to the present.
Offical
statement by the LDS Church that its leaders have the Power of Discernment
"The gift of discernment
enables a bishop or branch president to know truth, to understand the
differences between good and evil, and even to know what is in a person’s
heart. Because he has this gift, we can seek his counsel and he
can tell us what the Lord would have us do to grow spiritually."
- Official LDS Church Manual "Duties and Blessings
of the Priesthood", Part A, History and Organization of the Priesthood,
8: Duties of the Bishop and the Branch President, 57
"A
bishop is also ordained a high priest so he can preside over all members
in the ward (see D&C 107:71–73; D&C 68:15). A bishop is a judge in
Israel (see D&C 107:74) and interviews members for temple recommends,
priesthood ordinations, and other needs. It is his right to have the
gift of discernment."
- Official LDS Church "Gospel Principles," Unit Five:
The Church of Jesus Christ, 14: Priesthood Organization, 85
"After enumerating various
spiritual gifts, the Lord provides this counsel concerning your bishop
or any other presiding priesthood leader: 'And unto the bishop of
the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over
the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto
them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing
and yet be not of God.' (D&C 46:27.)
It is abundantly clear
that presiding priesthood leaders are given the gift of discernment."
- Elder Gene R. Cook, “Seek Out Your Spiritual Leader,”
Ensign, May 1978, 64
"Countless are the devious
ways of stealing. Fortunate indeed are they who, through righteous
living and the gift of discernment, can clearly distinguish between
honesty and dishonesty."
- Apostle Marion G. Romney, “A Glorious Promise,”
Ensign, Jan. 1981, 2
"Would You Like the Power
of Discernment? Would you like to have powers of discernment—the power
to identify truth? If so, you must read the word of God, acknowledge
God’s Goodness, ponder, and ask of God. Through doing this, Moroni testifies,
“By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.”
(Moro. 10:5.)"
"While I was a mission president
in Texas, I was informed that a particular missionary had lost his testimony
and wanted to go home. Some checking disclosed that doubts of the divinity
of his call had been planted in the young man’s mind by an investigator.
In an interview with the so-called investigator, I experienced special
powers of discernment that enabled me to know that the man was a minister
of another faith, posing as a college student and pretending to be an
honest investigator of Mormonism. Confronted with the knowledge
that had been revealed to me, he became confused and admitted his fraud.
With the deceiver out of the way and the truth known, the missionary
stayed and completed an honorable mission."
- Elder Carlos E. Asay, “The Companionship of the
Holy Ghost,” Ensign, Apr. 1988, 15 AND “Courting the Spirit,” New Era,
Aug. 1990, 33
"Discernment. At other times
the Holy Ghost enhances our senses that we might discern those things
that ordinarily would not be known to us, as did Ammon in the Book of
Mormon, who discerned the thoughts of King Lamoni (see Alma 18:16–18)."
- Sister Reneé Roy Harding, “Guess Who,” Ensign,
Aug. 1998, 70
"I give my testimony that
the prophets of this day have the qualities of the prophets of old
and the other prophets of this dispensation. Each of these prophets
has humbly and prayerfully sought to know and follow God’s will in his
personal ministry. We declare with soberness, and yet with the authority
of God in us vested, we have a prophet today. The President of the Church,
as a prophet, is God’s representative on earth and is appointed to lead
His church. Christ is the head of his Church today, just as he was
in ancient times. The Lord has said that this is 'the only true
and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the
Lord, am well pleased' (D&C 1:30)."
- Apostle Robert D. Hales, "Hear the Prophet’s Voice
and Obey," Ensign, May 1995, Page 15
"There is a power of discernment
granted 'unto such as God shall appoint … to watch over [His] church.'
To discern means 'to see.'” "President Harold B. Lee told me
once of a conversation he had with Elder Charles A. Callis of the Quorum
of the Twelve. Brother Callis had remarked that the gift of discernment
was an awesome burden to carry. To see clearly what is ahead and
yet find members slow to respond or resistant to counsel or even rejecting
the witness of the apostles and prophets brings deep sorrow."
"Recently President Hinckley
reminded the Brethren that, while we are men called from the ordinary
pursuits of life, there rests upon us a sacred ministry. And we take
comfort in what the Lord said to the original Twelve: 'Ye have not chosen
me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you.'"
"Each week we meet together
in the temple. We open the meeting by kneeling in prayer, and we close
with prayer. Every prayer is offered in the spirit of submission and
obedience to Him who called us and whose servants and witnesses we are."
"We know that we hold
the power of the priesthood 'in connection with all those who have received
a dispensation at any time from the beginning of the creation.' We think
of those who have preceded us in these sacred offices, and at times
we feel their presence."
- Boyd K. Packer, “The Twelve Apostles,” October
1996 General Conference Address, also Ensign, Nov. 1996, and again in
Ensign, Sept. 2005, page 16
"President Monson says softly
and with some emotion. 'In my patriarchal blessing as a boy, I was
promised that I would have the gift of discernment. I have to acknowledge
that such a declaration has been abundantly fulfilled in my life.'
Indeed, President Monson’s life—certainly his life as an Apostle and
member of the First Presidency—seems in a sense to be one long, extended
chronicle of the promptings of the Holy Spirit, with the many inspirational
and varied miracles which have resulted from his response to those promptings."
- Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, “President Thomas S.
Monson: Finishing the Course, Keeping the Faith,” Tambuli, Oct. 1994,
16–17
"I have found in these
Brethren seated before you the fulfillment in their lives of the promise
given to the Prophet Joseph Smith “...let virtue garnish thy thoughts
unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of
God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as
the dews from heaven. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion."
(D&C 121:45-46.)"
"I have watched them
armed with the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, taking on enormous
work loads at an age when most men would be confined to rocking chairs,
and engaging in strenuous travel schedules with great enthusiasm to
be anxiously engaged in building the kingdom of God. Then by observation,
the realization has come to me that this great Spirit that blesses them
in their activities is not a special gift to them alone, but is available
to all mankind if they will but be partakers and earnestly seek it and
be humbly guided by it." "Isn’t this spirit a constant companion
you need in your life?"
- Apostle L. Tom Perry, “Consider Your Ways,” Ensign,
July 1973, 20
"On one occasion the Prophet
Joseph Smith was invited to preach the gospel to a group of Native Americans.
They could not understand English, and he could not speak their language,
so he paid a special government agent to interpret his words. The Prophet
spoke for a few minutes, and the agent then interpreted the Prophet’s
message. When the people showed resentment and anger at the Prophet’s
message, the Spirit revealed to him that the agent was telling lies
in order to turn them against him. Joseph pushed the interpreter aside
and then preached a sermon to them. They understood every word."
"What spiritual gifts
did the Prophet Joseph Smith use during this incident? Discernment,
revelation, gift of tongues, and teaching."
- Official LDS Doctrine Manual "Duties and Blessings
of the Priesthood," Part B, Gospel Principles and Doctrines, 34: Spiritual
Gifts, 281
"Remember, the Lord knows
all things and will not be mocked. We are trying to help you. Never
lie to try to obtain a call, a recommend, or a blessing from the Lord.”
"If you approach the matter as outlined above, the member has the responsibility
to interview himself. The bishop or stake president has the right
to the power of discernment. He will know whether or not there is something
amiss that ought to be settled before a recommend is issued."
-Apostle N. Eldon Tanner, “The Blessing of Church
Interviews,” Ensign, Nov. 1978, 40
"The branch president is
the common judge of branch members. He interviews them to judge their
worthiness for temple recommends, ordinations, ordinances, callings,
and patriarchal blessings. He may counsel his branch members who seek
spiritual guidance."
"To help the branch president
in his responsibilities as common judge, the Lord promises him the gift
of discernment. As he is worthy to receive it, this gift helps him know
what is in a person’s heart."
- Official LDS Church "Branch Guidebook", Branch
Presidency, 3
"The offices of bishop and
branch president and counselors are sacred in this Church. The men
who hold those offices are respected by the Lord, inspired by His Spirit,
and given the powers of discernment and judgment necessary to their
office. We honor and love them, and we show this by our consideration
for them."
- Apostle Dallin H. Oaks, “Special Witness: ‘Bishop,
Help!’ ” Friend, Apr. 2004, 19
"We read in this same source:
“And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint
and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church,
are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest
there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.” (D&C
46:27; see also 1 Cor. 12:10.)"
"This power of discernment
is essential if we are to distinguish between genuine spiritual gifts
and the counterfeits Satan seeks to use to deceive men and women and
thwart the work of God. The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “Nothing
is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence
of a false spirit when they think they have the spirit of God.” (Teachings,
p. 205.) He also taught that “no man nor sect of men without the regular
constituted authorities, the Priesthood and discerning of spirits, can
tell true from false spirits.”
- Apostle Dallin H. Oaks, “Spiritual Gifts,” Ensign,
Sept. 1986, 68
"Satan has had great success
with this gullible generation. As a consequence, literally hosts of
people have been victimized by him and his angels. There is, however,
an ample shield against the power of Lucifer and his hosts. This
protection lies in the spirit of discernment through the gift of the
Holy Ghost. This gift comes undeviatingly by personal revelation
to those who strive to obey the commandments of the Lord and to follow
the counsel of the living prophets."
- Apostle James E. Faust, “Serving the Lord and Resisting
the Devil,” Ensign, Sept. 1995, 2
"The teacher will be in
accord with the General Authorities as a group and with his local leaders,
knowing they are guides to safety. He will have desires to follow and
conform to their teachings and example in all their spiritual and temporal
declarations, knowing the Lord gives them the gifts of discernment.
(See D&C 46:27.)"
- Elder Gene R. Cook, “Spiritual Guides for Teachers
of Righteousness,” Ensign, May 1982, 25
"The Lord said, 'Wherefore
take unto you the whole armour of God' (Eph. 6:13). Spiritual armor
not only protects against the many things that can knock us spiritually
senseless, but also protects us physically and in many other ways. For
instance, it can help us to have wise discernment in making all of the
important decisions we have to make. We can also have special insights
in choosing friends and associates."
- Apostle James E. Faust, “Keep Your Chin Strap Fastened,”
New Era, Nov. 1981, 4
"Bishops and branch presidents
are called to care for the spiritual well-being of the members of their
Church units. One specific spiritual responsibility that bishops and
branch presidents have is to be a common judge (see D&C 107:74). As
a common judge, the bishop or branch president conducts worthiness interviews,
counsels members, and administers Church discipline. In order to help
them in these duties, the Lord has promised bishops and branch presidents
the gift of discernment (see D&C 46:27)."
"There are countless devious
ways of stealing. Fortunate indeed are they who, through righteous
living and the gift of discernment, can clearly distinguish between
honesty and dishonesty."
- Apostle Marion G. Romney, “A Glorious Promise,”
Tambuli, July 1981, 1
Van
Hale's response, in part::
I could add hundreds, even thousands, of quotes to the list that Deconstructor
has assembled. There is almost no topic more frequently addressed than
that LDS at all levels have access to the Holy Ghost who provides comfort,
guidance and spiritual discernment to lead LDS into all truth. The question
here is what does this mean. How far does this spiritual discernment
extend. I have advocated publicly for 25 years that the Holy
Ghost is a primary source of spiritual truth and discernment.
What I in fact insisted is that the Church has never taught
that its leaders are omniscient or infallible. In fact the
idea that Church leaders claim infallibility has frequently been denied.
One clear declaration is that of Charles W. Penrose, a member of the
First Presidency, published in the Improvement Era:
Question 14: Do you believe that the President of the Church, when
speaking to
the Church in his official capacity is infallible?
Answer: We do not believe in the infallibility of man. When God reveals
anything
it is truth, and truth is infallible. No President of the Church has
claimed
infallibility. Improvement Era (Vol. XV. September, 1912, No. 11,
p. 1045)
Editor's Table: Peculiar Questions Briefly Answered by Charles W.
Penrose, of
the First Presidency
Mormon
Van Hale 