K-TALK
LDS Apologist Van Hale on Polygamy
Van Hale hosts his own Salt Lake area radio program called "Mormon Miscellaneous."
On June 12th, 2005 Mr. Hale discussed Josph Smith's polygamy and defended
his earlier statement that sexual access was not the reason for it.
Transcript
of Van Hale's Explanation for his Statement regarding Joseph Smith's
Polygamy
So I made that comment (about polygamy) back in September
and Deconstructor responded and he said:
"Last night on your radio program you said the
following in regards to Mormon polygamy" and then presents his
version of what I said. And then he goes on and he says "In other
words, you asserted that Joseph Smith’s polygamy had to do with
a restoration of an ancient …"
So this Deconstructor is making a false and twisted and bizarre representation
of my point of view in regards to Joseph Smith on the subject of polygamy
and so I responded to him and let me read this response…
[Note: Van Hale doesn’t finish reading the email].
(Van Hale reads his reply to Deconstructor).
You completely missed my point….
At any rate, he [Deconstructor] went on to in these numerous
references that he presents to demonstrate that there was a sexuality
in polygamous marital relationships on the assumption that I am taking
the position that no such thing occurred.
Well, my reply is this:
You completely missed my point and your references in no way apply.
The common view of polygamy was to provide greater opportunity for
a man to satisfy his sexual appetite. I’m not sure how you came
to the conclusion that I think that Mormon polygamists did not have
sex with more than one wife. But your conclusion is completely erroneous.
It almost seems as though you are trying to twist my comments for
some reason.
My point was that the main purpose of polygamy was other than sexual.
I have never encountered an LDS source which established that sexual
gratification was the purpose of polygamy. I assume you understand
a man without marriage and children can have sex for gratification
only, even taking precaution that no pregnancy occur. You even cite
Jacob 2 which makes the point that raising up seed unto God is the
main purpose, not providing greater sexual opportunity for men. You
seem not to be aware of the fact that many plural wives did not have
children and many did not have sex with their husbands. There were
other reasons for plural marriage in Mormonism other than having children
on this earth. Further, many women were sealed as plural wives to
men for eternity only. If you are not aware of these facts let me
know and I will supply the references.
The evidence supports the view that Joseph Smith had, at most, few
sexual encounters with women other than Emma. There is not a single
established descendant of Joseph Smith by anyone but Emma. Convincing
evidence through DNA tests may yet identify descendants of his through
plural wives but as yet it is difficult to explain how Joseph Smith
would have had many children by his wives yet none was identified
as such. To have been a son or daughter of Joseph Smith would have
been considered a great honour. Why would this have been completely
covered up by people who were strong proponents of polygamy? Why must
we turn to speculation and very late second, third or fourth hand
comments to claim that Joseph Smith had children other than those
by Emma?
I am referring to some statements he [Deconstructor] made that are
very late, second, third or fourth hand comments rather than the better
evidence… (he doesn’t finish reading it).
My point here is that I made a statement, he misinterpreted my statement,
I pointed out to him very clearly what my point was in my statement
– I was not saying that there was no such thing as sexuality in
Mormon polygamy – that is, of course, absurd to suggest that.
And yet even after this, at least two times since this time, this Deconstructor
on the exmormon.org bulletin board has come back to this and insisted,
again, at least two other times, there might be more that I didn’t
see, but at least two other times, has insisted that I alleged that
there was no such thing as sexuality in Mormon polygamy [he laughs]
and then to make matters even worse, just to kind of demonstrate how
something like this happens, even though it’s absurd to think
that I would stand by such a position and even though I corrected this
he insists upon it enough times that you have another individual, a
very prominent poster on this exmormon.org site, Randy Jordan, who puts
this on the exmormon.org bulletin board, oh about a week ago or so.
(Hale Reads Randy Jordan’s post)
Randy J. (early June 2005 on RfM):
Hale said on his show a few months ago (paraphrasing) that he had
studied Joseph Smith’s polygamy practice for many years and
that he had found no evidence that polygamy served to provide Smith
with increased sexual opportunities. Hale’s attitude flies in
the face of documentation from many of Smith’s closest friends
and disciples which has been detailed by such LDS historians as Todd
Compton and Richard Van Wagoner. Since many of Smith’s close
loyal associates as well as many of his former plural wives testified
that those relationships were sexual Hale is simply in intellectual
denial of the facts re excerpts from Compton’s research.
So (laughing) what is happening is that you have someone like the
Deconstructor in this arena insisting that on several occasions that
I believe something that I don’t believe even after I corrected
him in such a way that it seems impossible for him to misunderstand
my point, my point simply being that the purpose for polygamy was not
to provide additional sexual opportunities for Mormon males beyond that
that monogamy provides. It was about the restoration of an ancient order
and also the providing of a good husband for good women which exceeded
the good men in numbers and to provide for the raising up of a righteous
seed to God as mentioned in Jacob Chapter 2 but besides this, there
were other reasons that were given for polygamy as we find in early
Mormon history. There is not just one simple answer. But the one thing
I never encountered was any argument from Mormon sources saying the
reason for polygamy was that men could find greater sexual satisfaction
and gratification. That simply was never presented as a reason; in fact,
it would have been much easier, as anyone could well imagine, if that
were the position that you can have sex with anyone you want to, if
that were the Mormon position and if it was just for expanded opportunity
for sexual gratification then why not, why bring the whole marriage
concept into it and the having of children and the responsibility of
large families and the support that all that required and so forth.
At any rate, my point, in spite of the fact that I think it was clear
when I first stated it and I responded to this individual who misunderstood
my position and still insists that I believe something that I don’t
believe and then another individual who hasn’t demonstrated I
think any common sense judgement in his assessment of this, has gone
ahead and restated my position, falsely again of course, and so somebody
who is participating on the exmormon.org bulletin board is in a position
of hearing enough statements and hearing this reiterated over and over
again that Van Hale believes something that he doesn’t believe
but what is a person going to think? He’s going to think well
I know what Van Hale believes about polygamy and it’s absurd that
he would believe this; Van Hale has an absurd view on polygamy. Because
the only thing they’re hearing is that which is coming from people
with an extreme bias and an obvious desire to misrepresent and misinterpret
my point of view.
So if you take this sort of thing that is happening, you know, I am
talking from personal experience. This helps me understand as you go
back into Missouri in 1838 how it is that people are saying Joseph Smith
believed this, he believed that, this is what Mormons believe, when
in fact it was not. That was one of the major complaints from Joseph
Smith and other Latter Day Saints was that people were misrepresenting,
twisting and distorting and fabricating falsehoods about their beliefs
and views and that did certainly add a great deal of fuel to the fire
that led to the Mormon War and the expulsion of Latter Day Saints from
Missouri.
See
Public Responses to Van Hale's Comments
Mormon
Van Hale