K-TALK
LDS Apologist Van Hale Denies
Book of Mormon Historicity
Van Hale hosts his own Salt Lake area radio program called "Mormon Miscellaneous"
On February 6th, 2005 Mr. Hale's guest was Simon Southerton, author
of "Losing
a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church".
During
the two-hour radio broadcast, Van Hale issued a public statement, in
which he declared that he could not accept the Book of Mormon is real
history about real people.
Transcript
of Van Hale's Broadcast Exchange with Caller:
This is a transcript
of the Van Hale interview of one caller immediately following his "Inspired
Fiction" statement broadcast on K-TALK Radio, February 6, 2005.
Van Hale: Okay, let's go
to a caller. You're on the air.
Caller: Oh yeah, uh, the
whole thing though… about whether... Can you hear me now?
Val Hale: Yes, uh hu.
Caller: (Muffled) Alright,
the whole thing is that you have hard evidence. You have the Book of
Mormon plates. I mean the golden plates. If it wasn't an actual history,
then why would you have the golden plates? And then why would you have
the angel Moroni bringing the golden plates, or showing Joseph Smith
where they were hidden if it wasn't a hard history? It has to be a history
of the ancient people who lived here.
Van Hale: Um, yes, um, I'm
well familiar with your point of view and thinking on that. The angel,
I personally believe that Joseph Smith was uh... visited by an angel
and that an angel superintended the production of the Book of Mormon.
The uh, uh, I don't know, maybe it's… it's maybe a… a crude
thing to say but uh... the uh... plates uh... could be explained
in a number of ways, in several, in several different ways that occur
to me. One would be in the area of special effects. The whole
idea of the presentation of something in a very realistic fashion is
something that we're we in encounter all the time. We see all every
day of our lives. We see uh... things where millions of dollars have
been spent to try to present something in such a realistic seeming way
that we don't even thing about whether it's historical, actual or whatever.
We're simply watching it and paying attention to it and uh, uh... enjoying
the message or being persuaded by the message.
Caller: Well then if you're...
if that's the case if you're saying that it could be a novel then you're
also saying that the Bible could be a novel and that Jesus Christ was
all... he was was a figment of God's imagination and that he gave it
to the people so he could convert them to the truth. I don't, you know,
the whole history of the Bible is based on actual, literal things that
happened
Van Hale: Well…
Caller: There were prophets
of God and there were prophets of God in the…old… in the
Book of Mormon. They actually lived and they left, they left a message
for the people and there has been artifacts found all over the United
States of uh…an ancient people who lived here
Van Hale: Uh hu.
Caller: And died in warfare
and there are mounds, the burial mounds all over the East Coast and
there are all kinds of evidences and so just because you have really
haven't delved into the fact that these evidences do exist doesn't mean
that uh the whole Book of Mormon is a book of fiction.
Van Hale: Well, you're making
a number of false assumptions first of all uh... I spent thirty years
uh thinking, delving into these different issues looking at different
arguments and evidences…
Caller: Have you looked at
artifacts?
Van Hale: Well of course.
Caller: The Artifacts. Actual
pieces of uh of uh... helmets and swords and all kinds of things that
were…have been found on the American Continent.
Van Hale: Well, I, I think
that you uh substantially exaggerate uh the material, but that's not
my point. My point is that first of all I want to state that I don't…
I… I've never asserted that the Book of Mormon is a novel. It's
not a novel in my opinion. Want to hold for a minute? I got to…
Caller: I'll hold.
(music)
Van Hale: Okay well, I guess,
uh, I misunderstood what was happening there but we're back …
uh going back to your comments caller. I, my, my point and this is what
seems no matter how much I say it it's distorted out of uh… it's
uh... distorted. What I believe is that the ultimate purpose
of the Book of Mormon has nothing to do with history. It's not about
history. It's not what it's for. It's not to teach history.
We don't have that
great commitment in our LDS faith to history anyway. I uh…
I don't know that much about the history of Africa uh …(caller
tries to interrupt) there's no driving force in our faith that that
they'll find out about the history of Africa. The fact is that
the Book of Mormon and the purpose of the Book of Mormon was not to
teach history, it was to lead… uh... people to whom it
was given into a spiritual experience which would convert them, change
their lives, and that is, that is, that has always been… uh acknowledged
as the ultimate purpose of the Book of Mormon. Not the teaching
of history.
Caller: Well, I have to agree
with that, but we have to look at also the prophesies and when you look
at the prophesies in the Bible and the prophesies in the Book of Mormon
you can see that they're coming true. I just don't think that the Lord
would say an important book like the Book of Mormon… and dream
up, dream up a book of fiction for people to …uh convert. When
it was actually the truth.
Van Hale: Uh hu.
Caller: It was the truth.
And that's…
Van Hale: Well that's …
As I said in my statement that I believe that the Book of Mormon is
best read as a history and that's the best approach and that if you
read it like that and, and um… I have no problem, no interest
in trying to convince you that the Book of Mormon is not a translation
of a book of ancient history. I simply... I have been questioned a number
of times about my point of view in uh doing my program and elsewhere
so I decided to finally that I would make a, write a, statement in which
I could uh… identify what my point of view is.
Caller: But I mean if you
also go back, and you go back, and talk about the Garden of Eden and
Adam and Eve as being an allegory or a story rather than a real fact.
Van Hale: Yes…
Caller: I mean where…
I'm sure two thousand years from now when people read about the early
Mormons is someone going to come in and say, "That's really fiction"
Because, uh… you know… I …You have to look at the
hard facts. It's there. It happened.
Van Hale: Well, I, I agree
with you. I think that we need to look at the hard facts but what…
what I conclude from looking at them are is uh different than your conclusion
and that's... I'm…you know, I'm simply saying you uh obviously
believe that the Book of Mormon is… uh a divinely inspired book.
I think it's a book of scripture. I believe that to and that uh there
are different ways, different approaches to it and I'm not in the least
bit interested in dissuade you from your point of view.
I think it's highly unlikely
that you will dissuade me from my point of view. I've just, you know,
this is a point of view that's developed over a number of years of thought
and study and I uh… uh my consuming hobbies since the time I was
nineteen has been my faith. The history, and you know, and I immerse
myself in that. That's what I do. I've been doing this radio program
for 24 years and talking to people about different ideas and it's not
like I haven't thought about these things. It's just that I've come
to a different conclusion that you have, and I have, you know, I'm fine
with your conclusion. I have no uh, no uh reason to try and dissuade
you from it.
Caller: Well, okay, I see
now, that's fine. I just I just I just don't see how you can ignore
hard things like … I mean, if Moroni for example, was an act of
fiction why would he then appear to Joseph Smith and you know and bring
the Book of Mormon, bring the Book of Mormon back… that's just…
it's ludicrous to think that, that there really that there never was
a Moroni. If there was never a Moroni, if he was an act of fiction then
he would have never come back and appeared to Joseph Smith like he did.
Ha, you know, that's just… That just doesn't make sense. But anyway,
I respect your opinion. I mean that's your opinion.
Caller: Ok, thank you.
Van Hale: Alright. Bye
Van Hale: Okay, and of course
that's… that's what happens. People have firm views and they've
developed along different lines and my whole point, huh huh, in my position
is that um Latter Day Saints are diverse, a diverse people and the diversity
is growing and that I think that there is uh room based upon our basic
core beliefs that I had outlined in my statement. There is room
for Latter Day Saints to believe that the Book of Mormon is an authentic
divinely inspired book of scripture without making a commitment that
it is a um… a translation of ancient history. And that's where
I find myself.
I think that there are other
Latter Day Saints who subscribe to something similar to this point of
view. And I uh, I think the important thing we agree upon is that it's
a divinely inspired book. The question of whether there was a Lehi who
had a dream is for me not an issue. The question is, is there value
in the.. in the dream? I again, as I was saying in my statement I think,
I think, the best way to read the Book of Mormon is not as a history
and not be dissecting it.
If you want to get the message
of it, to get a grasp of it, that is if you want to read it as a real
intent that's outlined in Moroni, Chapter 10, verses 4 and 5, I think
the that real intent is to read the book and try and grasp what the
book's telling you. And in the course of that millions have found themselves
inspired… uh and converted to the LDS faith. Not converted to
ideas about the ancient history of ancient America because you know
we don't, you know. It's not really pertinent to our faith. It just
isn't. Well, what is pertinent to our faith is what we are doing here
now.
View
Official Church Statements on the Historicity of the Book of Mormon
Mormon
Van Hale