Go to Jeff Salisbury LWGate Home Page.From: "Mike Gibbons" <mikegibbons@proactech.com>
Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] NVR
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:05:12 -1000
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Thanks Katherine. Your answers are always very good value! I don't use the
8% rule but didn't have a good rule of where to set the stop below support.
Now I do!!!
Aloha,
Mike Gibbons
Proactive Technologies, LLC
http://www.proactech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com
[mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Katherine Malm
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:54 PM
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] NVR
Mike,
You've changed my example from the numbers I was using. Let me go with
your example. If the stock is $24.99, then the closest .50 mark is $25.00. I
suppose I should have said "round to the nearest .50". That means the stop
would be set at $25.00-0.13 = 24.87.
The whole idea of setting the stop below congestion in the first place is
to stay out of the way if the stock simply moves into congestion again.
Again, the stop would be set 0.10 below congestion if you're using a more
standard interpretation. That means "standard" would be set at $24.89. My
stop is set at $24.87. Only 2 cents difference on 24.99 congestion. You
can't count the 0.10 as "cost" because its sunk under either rule of thumb.
My "price" for sticking to odd numbers is 0.02/24.99 = 0.0008, or 0.08%.
In my original example my "price" is the difference between the "standard"
and the "odd rule" and is 0.02% not 3% as you originally suggested.
Throw away all the math for a moment...the point is that you pay a price
for setting a stop in either case if you don't get out on your own ahead of
the stop. When you set a stop, you are *choosing* an exit point and then
letting someone else execute it. In either case, you don't necessarily exit
at the stop price because fast trade will often drop the price below your
stop before execution. That's why I prefer to use mental stops + sound
discipline and exit when I wish to do so. Of course, that requires
maintaining focus as well, something I've been known to screw up on every
now and again. In that case, I chalk it up to tuition.
Katherine
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gibbons
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:17 PM
Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] NVR
Hi Katherine,
I hope I'm not flogging a dead horse here... Perhaps my interpretation
of your comment was incorrect or my math is fuzzy :-) . You said "I go $0.13
below the closest $.50 mark ...". By closest I assumed you meant the closest
$.50 below the congestion (I'm not familiar with that term, but I presume
you mean the support level). So if the congestion was at $24.99 then you
would put the stop at $24.50 - $0.13 = $24.37. That is $0.62 below the
support level, or in this case 2.5%.
I don't mean to be nit-picking - just a techie trying to understand.
Aloha,
Mike Gibbons
Proactive Technologies, LLC
http://www.proactech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com
[mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Katherine Malm
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:12 PM
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] NVR
Hi Mike,
I'm not sure how you got 3%.... Most trailing stops are set about 0.10
below the recent congestion. Either way, you're already sacrificing the 0.10
to set the stop and so its a sunk cost. In my example, a stop $0 .10 below
congestion would be set at 24.42. I set it at 24.37. That's $0.05 or 0.2%
more than a $0.10 stop on the same stock. If I were trading billions, I'd
worry about it. I don't use stops as a trading technique on long positions,
I use them as catastrophic insurance. Profits on long positions I take on my
own with mental stops and will be out long before a stop is hit if other
price/volume indicators trigger a sell. I think as an intermediate term
trader that is the best route, as you want to give a stock room to breathe
as it makes its advance. Also, stops get hit in intraday swings. As an
intermediate term player, the close is what's important.
Katherine
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gibbons
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 5:52 PM
Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] NVR
Hi Katherine,
I understand staying away from round numbers, but I'm wondering why
you choose another 0.13 below. That could put your stop at up to (0.49 +
0.13 = 0.62) which seems to give a lot of room for further losses. On a $20
stock that would be an additional 3%.
But I'm sure you have a sound reason, so I'm wondering if you'd
explain.
Aloha,
Mike Gibbons
Proactive Technologies, LLC
http://www.proactech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com
[mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Katherine Malm
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:41 PM
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] NVR
Hi Bill,
I think everybody is different when it comes to setting their
stop...I go $0.13 below the closest $.50 mark just to stay out of round
numbers. So if the bottom of congestion were $24.52, I'd set a stop at
$24.50 - 0.13 = $24.37. That odd number has saved me from getting caught in
a quick sweep plenty of times.
Katherine
----- Original Message -----
From: William King
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] NVR
Katherine,
Thanks for the trailing stop info. Not knowing any better I have
been in the arbitrary 8% camp unless there is obvious support in that area.
When they say "below" a given area - how far below? .10, .50 ??
----- Original Message -----
From: Katherine Malm
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:26 PM
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] NVR
Dimitri,
There are many ways to set a trailing stop. Some use trend
lines, some use a recent area of consolidation, some use the volatility of
the stock, some use moving averages. The one thing you do *not* want to do
is choose an arbitrary number such as 8% as a trailing stop. You run the
risk of being stopped out of a stock that is experiencing a "normal"
pullback in its uptrend. I've uploaded an article on trailing stops written
by Mark Boucher to the CANSIM site. You'll find it at:
http://WallStreet-LLC.com/pub/TrailingStops.doc
Use a wise approach to setting your stop and you will be more
likely to find that delicate balance between protecting profits, riding a
good stock as long as possible and protecting against catastrophic loss.
Katherine
----- Original Message -----
From: Dimitri Katsaros
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: [CANSLIM] NVR
Thank you all for the advice on NVR... after hearing
all that has been said and looking at the chart, I'm
going to take Katherine Malm's advice by putting a
trailing stop. Should I do it at 8% or perhaps larger
to weather out any volatility?
Thanks
Dimitri
=====
Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D340240201-11042002>Thanks=20
Katherine. Your answers are always very good value! I don't use the 8% =
rule but=20
didn't have a good rule of where to set the stop below support. Now I=20
do!!!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Aloha,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mike Gibbons<BR>Proactive Technologies, =
LLC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.proactech.com/">http://www.proactech.com</A></FONT></D=
IV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com=20
[mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Katherine =
Malm<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:54 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
canslim@lists.xmission.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CANSLIM]=20
NVR<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV>Mike,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You've changed my example from the numbers I was using. Let me go =
with=20
your example. If the stock is $24.99, then the closest .50 mark is =
$25.00. I=20
suppose I should have said "round to the nearest .50". That means the =
stop=20
would be set at $25.00-0.13 =3D 24.87.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The whole idea of setting the stop below congestion in the first =
place is=20
to stay out of the way if the stock simply moves into congestion =
again. Again,=20
the stop would be set 0.10 below congestion if you're using a more =
standard=20
interpretation. That means "standard" would be set at $24.89. My stop =
is set=20
at $24.87. Only 2 cents difference on 24.99 congestion. You can't =
count the=20
0.10 as "cost" because its sunk under either rule of thumb. My "price" =
for=20
sticking to odd numbers is 0.02/24.99 =3D 0.0008, or 0.08%. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In my original example my "price" is the difference between the=20
"standard" and the "odd rule" and is 0.02% not 3% as you originally=20
suggested.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Throw away all the math for a moment...the point is that you pay =
a price=20
for setting a stop in either case if you don't get out on your own =
ahead of=20
the stop. When you set a stop, you are *choosing* an exit point and =
then=20
letting someone else execute it. In either case, you don't necessarily =
exit at=20
the stop price because fast trade will often drop the price below your =
stop=20
before execution. That's why I prefer to use mental stops + sound =
discipline=20
and exit when I wish to do so. Of course, that requires maintaining =
focus as=20
well, something I've been known to screw up on every now and again. In =
that=20
case, I chalk it up to tuition.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Katherine</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:mikegibbons@proactech.com"=20
title=3Dmikegibbons@proactech.com>Mike Gibbons</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:canslim@lists.xmission.com"=20
title=3Dcanslim@lists.xmission.com>canslim@lists.xmission.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 10, =
2002 7:17=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [CANSLIM] =
NVR</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D820140100-11042002>Hi=20
Katherine,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D820140100-11042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D820140100-11042002>I=20
hope I'm not flogging a dead horse here... Perhaps my interpretation =
of your=20
comment was incorrect or my math is fuzzy :-) . You said "I go $0.13 =
below=20
the closest $.50 mark ...". By closest I assumed you meant the =
closest=20
$.50 below the congestion (I'm not familiar with that term, but I =
presume=20
you mean the support level). So if the congestion was at $24.99 then =
you=20
would put the stop at $24.50 - $0.13 =3D $24.37. That is $0.62 below =
the=20
support level, or in this case 2.5%.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D820140100-11042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D820140100-11042002>I=20
don't mean to be nit-picking - just a techie trying to understand.=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Aloha,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mike Gibbons<BR>Proactive =
Technologies,=20
LLC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.proactech.com/">http://www.proactech.com</A></FONT></D=
IV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com=20
[mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]<B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Katherine=20
Malm<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 10, 2002 1:12 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
canslim@lists.xmission.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CANSLIM]=20
NVR<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV>Hi Mike,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm not sure how you got 3%.... Most trailing stops are set =
about=20
0.10 below the recent congestion. Either way, you're already =
sacrificing=20
the 0.10 to set the stop and so its a sunk cost. In my example, a =
stop $0=20
.10 below congestion would be set at 24.42. I set it at 24.37. =
That's=20
$0.05 or 0.2% more than a $0.10 stop on the same stock. If I were =
trading=20
billions, I'd worry about it. I don't use stops as a trading =
technique on=20
long positions, I use them as catastrophic insurance. Profits on =
long=20
positions I take on my own with mental stops and will be out long =
before a=20
stop is hit if other price/volume indicators trigger a sell. I =
think as an=20
intermediate term trader that is the best route, as you want to =
give a=20
stock room to breathe as it makes its advance. Also, stops get hit =
in=20
intraday swings. As an intermediate term player, the close is =
what's=20
important.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Katherine</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:mikegibbons@proactech.com"=20
title=3Dmikegibbons@proactech.com>Mike Gibbons</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:canslim@lists.xmission.com"=20
=
title=3Dcanslim@lists.xmission.com>canslim@lists.xmission.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April =
10, 2002=20
5:52 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [CANSLIM] =
NVR</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D160544622-10042002>Hi Katherine,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D160544622-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D160544622-10042002>I understand staying away from round =
numbers,=20
but I'm wondering why you choose another 0.13 below. That could =
put your=20
stop at up to (0.49 + 0.13 =3D 0.62) which seems to give a lot =
of room for=20
further losses. On a $20 stock that would be an additional=20
3%.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D160544622-10042002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D160544622-10042002>But I'm sure you have a sound reason, =
so I'm=20
wondering if you'd explain.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Aloha,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mike Gibbons<BR>Proactive =
Technologies,=20
LLC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.proactech.com/">http://www.proactech.com</A></FONT></D=
IV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com=20
[mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]<B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Katherine=20
Malm<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:41 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
canslim@lists.xmission.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CANSLIM]=20
NVR<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV>Hi Bill,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think everybody is different when it comes to setting =
their=20
stop...I go $0.13 below the closest $.50 mark just to =
stay out of=20
round numbers. So if the bottom of congestion were $24.52, I'd =
set a=20
stop at $24.50 - 0.13 =3D $24.37. That odd number has saved me =
from=20
getting caught in a quick sweep plenty of times.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Katherine</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:wk11@adelphia.net" =
title=3Dwk11@adelphia.net>William=20
King</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:canslim@lists.xmission.com"=20
=
title=3Dcanslim@lists.xmission.com>canslim@lists.xmission.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, =
April 10, 2002=20
5:25 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[CANSLIM]=20
NVR</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Katherine,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for the trailing =
stop info. Not=20
knowing any better I have been in the arbitrary 8% camp =
unless=20
there is obvious support in that area. When they say "below" =
a given=20
area - how far below? .10, .50 ??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; =
font-color: black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:kmalm@earthlink.net"=20
title=3Dkmalm@earthlink.net>Katherine Malm</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:canslim@lists.xmission.com"=20
=
title=3Dcanslim@lists.xmission.com>canslim@lists.xmission.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, =
April 09, 2002=20
11:26 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[CANSLIM]=20
NVR</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dimitri,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There are many ways to set a trailing stop. Some use =
trend=20
lines, some use a recent area of consolidation, some use =
the=20
volatility of the stock, some use moving averages. The one =
thing=20
you do *not* want to do is choose an arbitrary number such =
as 8%=20
as a trailing stop. You run the risk of being stopped out =
of a=20
stock that is experiencing a "normal" pullback in its =
uptrend.=20
I've uploaded an article on trailing stops written by Mark =
Boucher=20
to the CANSIM site. You'll find it at:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> <A=20
=
href=3D"http://WallStreet-LLC.com/pub/TrailingStops.doc">http://WallStree=
t-LLC.com/pub/TrailingStops.doc</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Use a wise approach to setting your stop and you =
will be=20
more likely to find that delicate balance between =
protecting=20
profits, riding a good stock as long as possible and =
protecting=20
against catastrophic loss.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Katherine</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message =
- -----=20
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; =
font-color: black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:dcka@yahoo.com" =
title=3Ddcka@yahoo.com>Dimitri=20
Katsaros</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:canslim@lists.xmission.com"=20
=
title=3Dcanslim@lists.xmission.com>canslim@lists.xmission.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, =
April 09,=20
2002 5:29 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> =
[CANSLIM]=20
NVR</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Thank you all for the advice on NVR... =
after=20
hearing<BR>all that has been said and looking at the =
chart,=20
I'm<BR>going to take Katherine Malm's advice by putting=20
a<BR>trailing stop. Should I do it at 8% or perhaps =
larger<BR>to=20
weather out any=20
=
volatility?<BR><BR>Thanks<BR>Dimitri<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Quiquid=20
latine dictum sit altum=20
=
viditur<BR><BR>__________________________________________________<BR>Do=20
You Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with=20
TurboTax<BR><A=20
=
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