Go to Jeff Salisbury LWGate Home Page.From: "Tom Worley" <stkguru@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Andersen - what happens to new recruits
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:11:31 -0400
Previous Article (by Author): Re: [CANSLIM] lighter side of corp deception "Tom Worley"
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In the case of both Enron and Worldcom, it appears that the intent was =
to hide debt and losses from both shareholders and analysts. In the case =
of Enron, also looks to me like they were hiding profits that should =
have gone to shareholders, and instead were quietly shunted off to the =
limited partners. So the "intent" to me in these two cases appears =
deceitful, and thus wrong, on the part of both (Andersen organized the =
tactic, so they knew the intent as well).=20
On the other hand, if a CFO relied on the advice of an outside auditor, =
without ill intent or knowledge of it being wrong, then the auditor =
bears the burden of ignorance at a minimum, and possible illegality as =
well.
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Gene Ricci=20
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Andersen - what happens to new recruits
I've tried but I can't help but ask....
Is it the 'one' that shows you the 'loop hole' or the one that uses it =
the guilty one? Does anyone believe that Enron didn't know what Anderson =
was doing? It's more than likely Enron asked for the different scenarios =
and then proceeded to 'cook the books'.... and got Anderson to 'bless' =
them. I don't, in any way, condone the actions of the =
companies/management/staff of those involved. But I do say that cheating =
is bad.... what's the difference in cheating on one's own income tax =
versus a company doing it.....=20
I have a dear friend (retired tax accountant) and love to sit over a =
beer and listen to his tales of his former clients who gave him the =
bottom line and told him to fill in the details... see, they didn't want =
to pay the taxes that they owed but what they thought was enough.... I =
also have 2 friends that lost their jobs at Anderson and they're both =
God fearing men, great fathers, good husbands and dear friends.... I see =
none of the sleaze that Anderson folks are reported to have...
Have a good summer,
Gene
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Tom Worley=20
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Andersen - what happens to new recruits
jans,
I didn't get the impression that Dave was trying to excuse or allow
unethical or illegal conduct by Andersen employees. Rather, I took his =
post
to provide more background on how these "fresh from the classroom =
training
environment" people could be convinced to do things differently, and =
against
what they had been taught. I clearly remember studying celestial =
navigation
at sea, and having to produce a position accurate to within 2 nautical
miles. When I asked why such accuracy in deep open waters, I was told =
simply
that they (the instructors) realized that in the real world I would =
get
sloppy, so if they started me at 2 miles, even with slop I still could =
put
the ship within 5 miles of where it really was, and that would still =
be
acceptable.
The guidance given by Andersen auditors to major corps, or the false =
or
misleading bookkeeping that they signed off on, goes to corporate =
practice
and policy of Andersen, starting right at the partners level. Probably =
for
some distance down in the organization, people clearly knew (or at =
least
were questioning if) they were doing wrong. But further down in the
organization, people may have been confused, but accepted that it was =
ok
because it was directed by people they trusted, and who had been =
auditing
many more years than they had.
Accountability must start at the very top, they can't be allowed to =
escape
the damage done, not just with the Worldcoms and Enrons and Sunbeams =
and
Waste Managements and Global Crossings, but to the entire financial
institution and its accounting system. The pattern is clear, and has =
been
clear for some years. It would be false, tragic even, if the partners =
escape
by claiming lack of knowledge of what was going on, it is obvious to =
me that
what was happening was normal corporate policy, directed right from =
the top
of the organization.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Spencer48@aol.com>
To: <canslim@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Andersen - what happens to new recruits
David:
Although this is not Canslim, since your remark was posted on the
CANSLIM forum, I feel I should post my answer here:
Those poor little boys and girls. My heart bleeds for them. It =
is not
their fault that they do something unscrupulous (no more than it was =
the
fault of those who taught them the "Anderson" way-after all the tutors =
were
themselves taught to be unethical by their own unscrupulous Anderson
teachers-and no doubt they were as impressionably callow as the =
1987-year
people. Of course, this could go on ad infinitum).
So long as you allow people to be unethical and unlawful by =
excusing
their unethical and illegal behavior, you are going to get more of
it-especially if the crime costs less than the probability that the =
crime
will be punished through condemnation and jail time.
After all, a baby isn't born good; he/she has to be taught to do =
the
right thing. However, apparently, all this learning falls by the =
wayside
once Anderson-like training centers get their diabolical hands on the
"kids".
Those poor impressionable youngsters-as a result of the training =
they've
received from the demon Anderson guys-cannot remember the difference =
between
right and wrong. What Balderdash.
These are NOT children. If one continues to treat adults like =
children
by making excuses for their unethical behavior, then this population =
will
become nothing but a nation of whining miscreants. Just, by the way, =
what
we
need now to fight terrorists and terrorism.
jans
In a message dated 6/29/2002 10:53:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dfcameron@yahoo.com writes:
<< In 1987, I started my professional career in Chicago. I was 24
years old, new to Chicago. I wanted to learn my way around, make
some new friends, etc.... much like young people new to an area will.
My company was located close to Arthur Andersen's training center
(which is really about 40 miles west of Chicago - but in the Chicago
metro area). I had the chance to meet several Andersen recruits.
These were young men and women who were (usually) fresh out of
school, eager to make their mark, and new to the ways of business.
Their story (told independently by several people over the next
several months) told of a boot camp like environment, with 70+ hour
weeks, continual indoctrination in "the Andersen way" and even
lodging together during stretches.
The company I worked for had no such thing. Only years later did I
realize that Andersen's approach was to get these people out of
college before they knew what other companies did, work them very
hard, and get them well indoctrinated. Many left once they got some
experience, but many stayed on - only knowing what Andersen taught as
THE way business should be run.
In retrospect, I suspect that some of the shady dealings by senior
members of Andersen were just drummed in to young impressionable
people as "that's the way things are done in business".
Again, take this for what its worth. I didn't go through it. I
have a friend who I still keep in touch with who worked for Arthur
Andersen Co. in Chicago. This was also 15 years ago. But... maybe
it sheds some light on how things got they way they are.
>>
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>In the case of both Enron and Worldcom, it =
appears that=20
the intent was to hide debt and losses from both shareholders and =
analysts. In=20
the case of Enron, also looks to me like they were hiding profits that =
should=20
have gone to shareholders, and instead were quietly shunted off to the =
limited=20
partners. So the "intent" to me in these two cases appears deceitful, =
and thus=20
wrong, on the part of both (Andersen organized the tactic, so they knew =
the=20
intent as well). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>On the other hand, if a CFO relied on the advice =
of an=20
outside auditor, without ill intent or knowledge of it being wrong, then =
the=20
auditor bears the burden of ignorance at a minimum, and possible =
illegality as=20
well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3Dgenr@swbell.net href=3D"mailto:genr@swbell.net">Gene Ricci</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dcanslim@lists.xmission.com=20
href=3D"mailto:canslim@lists.xmission.com">canslim@lists.xmission.com</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, June 30, 2002 3:34 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CANSLIM] Andersen - what happens to new=20
recruits</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">I've tried but I can't help but=20
ask....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Is it the 'one' that shows you the =
'loop hole'=20
or the one that uses it the guilty one? Does anyone believe that Enron =
didn't=20
know what Anderson was doing? It's more than likely Enron asked for =
the=20
different scenarios and then proceeded to 'cook the books'.... and got =
Anderson=20
to 'bless' them. I don't, in any way, condone the =
actions of the=20
companies/management/staff of those involved. But I do say =
that cheating is=20
bad.... what's the difference in cheating on one's own income tax versus =
a=20
company doing it..... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">I have a dear friend (retired tax =
accountant)=20
and love to sit over a beer and listen to his tales of his former =
clients who=20
gave him the bottom line and told him to fill in the details... see, =
they didn't=20
want to pay the taxes that they owed but what they thought was =
enough.... I also=20
have 2 friends that lost their jobs at Anderson and they're both God =
fearing=20
men, great fathers, good husbands and dear friends.... I see none of the =
sleaze=20
that Anderson folks are reported to have...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Have a good summer,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS">Gene</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dstkguru@bellsouth.net =
href=3D"mailto:stkguru@bellsouth.net">Tom=20
Worley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dcanslim@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:canslim@lists.xmission.com">canslim@lists.xmission.com</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, June 30, 2002 =
2:08 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CANSLIM] Andersen =
- - what=20
happens to new recruits</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>jans,<BR><BR>I didn't get the impression that Dave was =
trying=20
to excuse or allow<BR>unethical or illegal conduct by Andersen =
employees.=20
Rather, I took his post<BR>to provide more background on how these =
"fresh from=20
the classroom training<BR>environment" people could be convinced to do =
things=20
differently, and against<BR>what they had been taught. I clearly =
remember=20
studying celestial navigation<BR>at sea, and having to produce a =
position=20
accurate to within 2 nautical<BR>miles. When I asked why such accuracy =
in deep=20
open waters, I was told simply<BR>that they (the instructors) realized =
that in=20
the real world I would get<BR>sloppy, so if they started me at 2 =
miles, even=20
with slop I still could put<BR>the ship within 5 miles of where it =
really was,=20
and that would still be<BR>acceptable.<BR><BR>The guidance given by =
Andersen=20
auditors to major corps, or the false or<BR>misleading bookkeeping =
that they=20
signed off on, goes to corporate practice<BR>and policy of Andersen, =
starting=20
right at the partners level. Probably for<BR>some distance down in the =
organization, people clearly knew (or at least<BR>were questioning if) =
they=20
were doing wrong. But further down in the<BR>organization, people may =
have=20
been confused, but accepted that it was ok<BR>because it was directed =
by=20
people they trusted, and who had been auditing<BR>many more years than =
they=20
had.<BR><BR>Accountability must start at the very top, they can't be =
allowed=20
to escape<BR>the damage done, not just with the Worldcoms and Enrons =
and=20
Sunbeams and<BR>Waste Managements and Global Crossings, but to the =
entire=20
financial<BR>institution and its accounting system. The pattern is =
clear, and=20
has been<BR>clear for some years. It would be false, tragic even, if =
the=20
partners escape<BR>by claiming lack of knowledge of what was going on, =
it is=20
obvious to me that<BR>what was happening was normal corporate policy, =
directed=20
right from the top<BR>of the organization.<BR><BR>----- Original =
Message=20
-----<BR>From: <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:Spencer48@aol.com">Spencer48@aol.com</A>><BR>To: =
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:canslim@lists.xmission.com">canslim@lists.xmission.com</A>=
><BR>Sent:=20
Sunday, June 30, 2002 2:38 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Andersen - =
what=20
happens to new =
recruits<BR><BR><BR>David:<BR><BR> =20
Although this is not Canslim, since your remark was posted on =
the<BR>CANSLIM=20
forum, I feel I should post my answer =
here:<BR><BR> =20
Those poor little boys and girls. My heart bleeds for =
them. It is=20
not<BR>their fault that they do something unscrupulous (no more than =
it was=20
the<BR>fault of those who taught them the "Anderson" way-after all the =
tutors=20
were<BR>themselves taught to be unethical by their own unscrupulous=20
Anderson<BR>teachers-and no doubt they were as impressionably callow =
as the=20
1987-year<BR>people. Of course, this could go on ad=20
infinitum).<BR><BR> So long as you allow =
people to be=20
unethical and unlawful by excusing<BR>their unethical and illegal =
behavior,=20
you are going to get more of<BR>it-especially if the crime costs less =
than the=20
probability that the crime<BR>will be punished through condemnation =
and jail=20
time.<BR><BR> After all, a baby isn't born =
good;=20
he/she has to be taught to do the<BR>right thing. However, =
apparently,=20
all this learning falls by the wayside<BR>once Anderson-like training =
centers=20
get their diabolical hands on the<BR>"kids".<BR> Those poor=20
impressionable youngsters-as a result of the training =
they've<BR>received from=20
the demon Anderson guys-cannot remember the difference =
between<BR>right and=20
wrong. What Balderdash.<BR><BR> These =
are NOT=20
children. If one continues to treat adults like children<BR>by =
making=20
excuses for their unethical behavior, then this population =
will<BR>become=20
nothing but a nation of whining miscreants. Just, by the way,=20
what<BR>we<BR>need now to fight terrorists and=20
terrorism.<BR><BR>jans<BR><BR>In a message dated 6/29/2002 10:53:38 PM =
Eastern=20
Daylight Time,<BR><A =
href=3D"mailto:dfcameron@yahoo.com">dfcameron@yahoo.com</A>=20
writes:<BR><BR><< In 1987, I started my professional career in=20
Chicago. I was 24<BR> years old, new to =
Chicago. =20
I wanted to learn my way around, make<BR> some new friends, =
etc.... much=20
like young people new to an area will.<BR> My company was =
located=20
close to Arthur Andersen's training center<BR> (which is really =
about 40=20
miles west of Chicago - but in the Chicago<BR> metro =
area). I=20
had the chance to meet several Andersen recruits.<BR> These were =
young=20
men and women who were (usually) fresh out of<BR> school, eager =
to make=20
their mark, and new to the ways of business.<BR> Their story =
(told=20
independently by several people over the next<BR> several months) =
told of=20
a boot camp like environment, with 70+ hour<BR> weeks, continual=20
indoctrination in "the Andersen way" and even<BR> lodging =
together during=20
stretches.<BR><BR> The company I worked for had no such=20
thing. Only years later did I<BR> realize that =
Andersen's=20
approach was to get these people out of<BR> college before they =
knew what=20
other companies did, work them very<BR> hard, and get them well=20
indoctrinated. Many left once they got =
some<BR> experience,=20
but many stayed on - only knowing what Andersen taught as<BR> THE =
way=20
business should be run.<BR><BR> In retrospect, I suspect that =
some of the=20
shady dealings by senior<BR> members of Andersen were just =
drummed in to=20
young impressionable<BR> people as "that's the way things are =
done in=20
business".<BR><BR> Again, take this for what its =
worth. I=20
didn't go through it. I<BR> have a friend who I still keep =
in touch=20
with who worked for Arthur<BR> Andersen Co. in =
Chicago. This=20
was also 15 years ago. But... maybe<BR> it sheds some =
light=20
on how things got they way they are.<BR> =
>><BR><BR>-<BR>-To=20
subscribe/unsubscribe, email "<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:majordomo@xmission.com">majordomo@xmission.com</A>"<BR>-In=
the=20
email body, write "subscribe canslim" or<BR>-"unsubscribe =
canslim". Do=20
not use quotes in your email.<BR><BR><BR><BR>-<BR>-To =
subscribe/unsubscribe,=20
email "<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:majordomo@xmission.com">majordomo@xmission.com</A>"<BR>-In=
the=20
email body, write "subscribe canslim" or<BR>-"unsubscribe =
canslim". Do=20
not use quotes in your email.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Previous Article (by Author): Re: [CANSLIM] lighter side of corp deception "Tom Worley"
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