Go to Jeff Salisbury LWGate Home Page.From: "Tom Worley" <stkguru@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Big Money AGAIN, oh dear! Hay look Andy!
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:38:51 -0500
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John, I will jump in with a few comments.
While volume is not one of the letters in CANSLIM, it is very much a =
part of the rules. As you mention, while a cup and subsequent handle is =
formed, you want to see specific volume behavior (building up the right =
side of the cup, declining in the handle, for example, and preferably a =
blow off capitulation volume spike in the bottom of the cup).
You also want to see at least double daily average volume when a stock =
breaks out, combined with a price move over the pivot point. This is one =
of the toughies, because most sites, systems, etc. don't give you a =
combo of volume limits with price limits. The industry still provides a =
buy stop order format that is price sensitive only.
In examining and monitoring volume, you must also recognize that there =
are other successful chart patterns besides a cup & handle. Personally, =
I think CANSLIMers put far too much focus on finding the ideal, even =
perfect, c&h. In the process, they overlook many other successful =
patterns such as a double bottom (or triple bottom), or just a simple =
flat line base, or even an ascending flat line base (what many call a =
LLUR for Lower Left Upper Right).
Another aspect of volume that compounds the volume is being able to =
measure if volume is on track for 2X ADV at various points during the =
trading day. Of course, no guarantee that volume will continue and =
finish the day with double the average. You sound like you are set up to =
monitor moves during the day, so I doubt you would want to wait for the =
end of the day for a volume confirmation, only to find the price already =
more than 5% past the pivot.
I also think volume is something that must be viewed in light of market =
conditions. Right now, because of the holidays, so many people away from =
the market, end of year, a dismal "M", upcoming war with Iraq, etc., =
etc., the overall volume is down substantially. Thus, a stock meeting =
other criteria to buy might be a good buy with just average, or slightly =
better than average, volume.
Like everything with CANSLIM, you can break the rules, but you must know =
you are doing so. And you must monitor the stock closer because of the =
rules you break, and be sensitive to results. Rule breaking is a very =
individual thing, and varies by risk tolerance, investment objectives, =
time frame, etc.
I use volume in my screening only to limit the size of the list to =
review by hand. Since I only buy small and microcap stocks, which =
typically have a small float, I am not interested in stocks trading =
millions of shares a day regardless of price (along "choke" I use to =
limit the list). When I look at the chart, I do not look at volume =
initially, I look at the chart pattern, then I look at fundies and its =
industry to see if I am still interested. Only after I have established =
an interest do I begin examining the volume to see if it is commensurate =
with what I already saw on the chart, and with the fundies.
One final comment on volume. A stock that recently came into favor =
because of news, or surprisingly good earnings, or whatever, may have =
already seen a substantial increase in volume over the prior 20 or 30 =
days. That volume may be what built the right side of the cup, or the =
second leg up on a double bottom. But it also means that the ADV is now =
substantially higher than before the new interest in the stock. So the =
time period you use in evaluating ADV can also be significant. It also =
means that should the stock quiet down, the actual breakout volume may =
not be that much greater than what it did when everyone was excited =
about it, yet could be the right breakout point on the chart (good =
example is the desired decline of volume in the handle, followed by =
breakout over the pivot / high point in the handle).
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: John Calkins=20
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 6:08 PM
Subject: [CANSLIM] Big Money AGAIN, oh dear! Hay look Andy!
Hi Andy, Katherine, Mike or maybe anyone who sees things this way.
I don't know if you have seen some of my original posts where I =
demonstrated how I mined the paper (IBD)physically for data. I did this =
because first I was a beginner and wanted to have firmly established =
something in my mind that I could hang my hat on. The sorting of my =
database worked similar to yours,Andy and Katherine's although on a much =
simpler scale because mine was a sort of a sort (sort of speek..ha!). =
This worked for me for about 4 years until I ran out of time and =
patients with the paper. Also, as you say, I knew there were better =
ways to get the data, technology has made it possible to have a high =
speed internet for quick downloads, a laptop to take the offline data =
with me and an established backbone to keep from straying too far off =
what I have learned. At first I was like a kid in a candy store and =
couldn't make up my mind, but the more I follow a plan, the better I =
feel about it.
Your's, Andy, and Katherine's was probably the best advice for me to use =
the paper as a follow up. I now have the tools to look for a screener =
(a wireless laptop and highspeed internet). I understand what you and =
Katherine have done with the Excel sheets for doing the sorting of the =
data, now I just need to try a site as you say. My only problem here is =
that I would like to try a couple of free sites like MSN to at least get =
the terminology down so I don't get too confused right off. I read =
through Your and Katherine's sheets and see how you sift through your =
picks. I'm confidant I can follow your guide.
I guess I am kind of hung up on this one very important caractristic of =
CANSLIM that I just cannot seem to get past. VOLUME. As I looked at =
the paper, all my data started with high volume first as to try to =
follow the right side of the cup up to its pivot point. This seemed to =
eliminate the unnessary screening when I was using the manual data entry =
method. I have brought this up repeatidly in this forum. IBD and WON =
make such a big deal about volume. I notice how quiet the general media =
is about it. It's like I have the key to one of the Myst Worlds or =
something.
I know that V for VOLUME is not one of the CANSLIM accronymns, but I =
believe it is in the "I" for institutional sponcership. If you don't =
have ABOVE AVERAGE VOLUME in the right side of the cup, then from what I =
have read, you don't have a Full CANSLIM canidate.
I see from your sheet, you show average volume such as Katherine does. =
You have a scoring system on your personal cryteria. I'm guessing that =
Katherine sticks with her forward growth > 15%, Price > $6, Average =
Daily Volume > 30, RS >60, < 15% Below 50 day MA, > (above) 200 day MA. =
Then does she manually look at each and every stock on a chart to see if =
it has a proper base? Is this what you do too? You don't have as many =
stocks in your list, and I haven't tried to examine their charts to see =
if you picked these because of their=20
bases.
OR NOW, because of my tools, do I just enter as close to my prefered =
CANSLIM cyteria into the screener that I feel the most comfortable with =
and end up with a few hundred stocks and simply bring up each and every =
chart and build some sort of chart scoring system that I can sort to =
give me my list.
I understand when building a database that you need to start with the =
final product and work backwards. So in this case (and what I did with =
the paper) is to get my list down to a managable size of stocks that =
were close to their piviots to send myself cell phone alerts and emails =
to get my attention so I can do my day job.
I understand that I could just simply take out a subscription to a =
service that does most of this for me such as what Mike and Katherine =
have but the reason I got involved in CANSLIM in the first place was =
because I had someone else doing most of it for me. I might have stayed =
with them but not understanding how everything worked made me feel like =
something was wrong with the method. So before I can feel confident in =
using a service that takes most of the work out of this method, I need =
to prove to myself what I'm looking at. After I see that this is indeed =
the method that I want, and I know that to be a fact, to build on the =
confidence to replicate the data as close as possible to end up with =
similar results is my goal as is everyone else's.
In screening for volume, do you recommed that I fiddle around with one =
of the free sites or do you have a site you know of that might help me =
with this. Am I beating a dead horse with this, do you get the same =
results when you screen, somehow, for stocks <=3D 15% of 52 week high =
and then just flip through the charts like grease lightning! If I could =
just mind meld with a few of you for a few hours, I won't have to =
reinvent the wheel again or rewrite "The Universe in a Nutshell"!
Thanks any input.
JC
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: AJAskey@aol.com=20
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] stock chart
In a message dated 11/17/2002 12:10:16 PM Central Standard Time, =
jcalkins@olypen.com writes:
Now let me get this straight. This group is studying WON's concept =
of CANSLIM. Granted, it doesn't mean you need to take a subscription to =
his paper to follow his teaching, BUT! How do you find the quality =
stocks that the big money is moving into? I use IBD's Where The Big =
Money's Flowing to get started with my lists. This follows everything =
that WON teaches. If you do not get the paper, then how do you find =
those same stocks?
JC,
Almost everything that IBD provides can be calculated and screened =
thru subscriptions to other data services such as AAII Stock Investor =
Pro and TC2000. These relatively inexpensive services did not exist =
when IBD was created but are popping up regularly since the internet has =
made it into everyones home. I am hoping that IBD recognizes this and =
somehow provides more data or it will eventually go out of business. =
DGO provides services to screen stocks but they are extremely overpriced =
and under featured based on what is available for free of fee elsewhere.
I subscribe to IBD because I like the articles and the constant =
reminders of CANSLIM rules, but not because I cannot find stocks that =
have the best IBD rankings without IBD. In fact, using only IBD EPS =
ranking stocks of 80 or better will keep one out of some of the future =
best performing stocks. (See a recent "Ask Bill" question as IBD states =
this.) By using a tool that screens the fundamentals instead of the =
rankings, one will find the best stocks that may miss some arbitrary cut =
off by a statistically anomally. By this I mean it makes more sense to =
screen for companies meeting CANSLIM criteria than to look at a subset =
of stocks that a good growers to determine if they meet CANSLIM =
criteria. Stocks that meet CANSLIM criteria will magically have good =
IBD rankings. If I wanted I could buy one IBD every week or two for =
verification of my data.
To try to duplicate the actual IBD rankings requires some programming =
knowledge and therefore everyone cannot do it. I do it as I don't want =
to tie my future to a paper that may go out of business at some point. =
But my point is that IBD does not do anything mystical to generate this =
information and the rankings are not the most important thing needed to =
find quality growers. The data behind the rankings is more important =
and the data is not available from IBD.
Andy
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>John, I will jump in with a few =
comments.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>While volume is not one of the letters in =
CANSLIM, it is=20
very much a part of the rules. As you mention, while a cup and =
subsequent handle=20
is formed, you want to see specific volume behavior (building up the =
right side=20
of the cup, declining in the handle, for example, and preferably a blow =
off=20
capitulation volume spike in the bottom of the cup).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>You also want to see at least double daily =
average volume=20
when a stock breaks out, combined with a price move over the pivot =
point. This=20
is one of the toughies, because most sites, systems, etc. don't give you =
a combo=20
of volume limits with price limits. The industry still provides a buy =
stop order=20
format that is price sensitive only.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>In examining and monitoring volume, you must =
also=20
recognize that there are other successful chart patterns besides a cup =
&=20
handle. Personally, I think CANSLIMers put far too much focus on finding =
the=20
ideal, even perfect, c&h. In the process, they overlook many other=20
successful patterns such as a double bottom (or triple bottom), or just =
a simple=20
flat line base, or even an ascending flat line base (what many call =
a LLUR=20
for Lower Left Upper Right).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Another aspect of volume that compounds the =
volume is=20
being able to measure if volume is on track for 2X ADV at various points =
during=20
the trading day. Of course, no guarantee that volume will continue and =
finish=20
the day with double the average. You sound like you are set up to =
monitor moves=20
during the day, so I doubt you would want to wait for the end of the day =
for a=20
volume confirmation, only to find the price already more than 5% past =
the=20
pivot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I also think volume is something that must be =
viewed in=20
light of market conditions. Right now, because of the holidays, so many =
people=20
away from the market, end of year, a dismal "M", upcoming war with Iraq, =
etc.,=20
etc., the overall volume is down substantially. Thus, a stock meeting =
other=20
criteria to buy might be a good buy with just average, or slightly =
better than=20
average, volume.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Like everything with CANSLIM, you can break the =
rules, but=20
you must know you are doing so. And you must monitor the stock closer =
because of=20
the rules you break, and be sensitive to results. Rule breaking is a =
very=20
individual thing, and varies by risk tolerance, investment objectives, =
time=20
frame, etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>I use volume in my screening only to limit the =
size of the=20
list to review by hand. Since I only buy small and microcap stocks, =
which=20
typically have a small float, I am not interested in stocks trading =
millions of=20
shares a day regardless of price (along "choke" I use to limit the =
list). When I=20
look at the chart, I do not look at volume initially, I look at the =
chart=20
pattern, then I look at fundies and its industry to see if I am still=20
interested. Only after I have established an interest do I begin =
examining the=20
volume to see if it is commensurate with what I already saw on the =
chart, and=20
with the fundies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>One final comment on volume. A stock that =
recently came=20
into favor because of news, or surprisingly good earnings, or whatever, =
may have=20
already seen a substantial increase in volume over the prior 20 or 30 =
days. That=20
volume may be what built the right side of the cup, or the second leg up =
on a=20
double bottom. But it also means that the ADV is now substantially =
higher than=20
before the new interest in the stock. So the time period you use in =
evaluating=20
ADV can also be significant. It also means that should the stock quiet =
down, the=20
actual breakout volume may not be that much greater than what it did =
when=20
everyone was excited about it, yet could be the right breakout point on =
the=20
chart (good example is the desired decline of volume in the handle, =
followed by=20
breakout over the pivot / high point in the handle).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3Djcalkins@olypen.com href=3D"mailto:jcalkins@olypen.com">John =
Calkins</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dcanslim@lists.xmission.com=20
href=3D"mailto:canslim@lists.xmission.com">canslim@lists.xmission.com</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 27, 2002 6:08 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [CANSLIM] Big Money AGAIN, oh dear! Hay look=20
Andy!</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Andy, Katherine, Mike or maybe =
anyone who sees=20
things this way.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't know if you have seen some of =
my original=20
posts where I demonstrated how I mined the paper (IBD)physically for =
data. =20
I did this because first I was a beginner and wanted to have firmly =
established=20
something in my mind that I could hang my hat on. The sorting of =
my=20
database worked similar to yours,Andy and Katherine's although on a much =
simpler=20
scale because mine was a sort of a sort (sort of speek..ha!). This =
worked=20
for me for about 4 years until I ran out of time and patients with =
the=20
paper. Also, as you say, I knew there were better ways to get the =
data,=20
technology has made it possible to have a high speed internet for quick=20
downloads, a laptop to take the offline data with me and an established =
backbone=20
to keep from straying too far off what I have learned. At first I =
was like=20
a kid in a candy store and couldn't make up my mind, but the more I =
follow a=20
plan, the better I feel about it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Your's, Andy, and Katherine's was =
probably the=20
best advice for me to use the paper as a follow up. I now have the =
tools=20
to look for a screener (a wireless laptop and highspeed internet). =
I=20
understand what you and Katherine have done with the Excel sheets for =
doing the=20
sorting of the data, now I just need to try a site as you say. My only =
problem=20
here is that I would like to try a couple of free sites like MSN to at =
least get=20
the terminology down so I don't get too confused right off. I read =
through=20
Your and Katherine's sheets and see how you sift through your =
picks. I'm=20
confidant I can follow your guide.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I guess I am kind of hung up =
on this one very=20
important caractristic of CANSLIM that I just cannot seem to get=20
past. VOLUME. As I looked at the paper, all =
my data=20
started with high volume first as to try to follow the right side =
of the=20
cup up to its pivot point. This seemed to eliminate the unnessary=20
screening when I was using the manual data entry method. I have =
brought=20
this up repeatidly in this forum. IBD and WON make such a big =
deal=20
about volume. I notice how quiet the general media is =
about=20
it. It's like I have the key to one of the Myst Worlds or=20
something.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I know that V for VOLUME is not one of =
the CANSLIM=20
accronymns, but I believe it is in the "I" for institutional =
sponcership. =20
If you don't have ABOVE AVERAGE VOLUME in the right side of the cup, =
then from=20
what I have read, you don't have a Full CANSLIM canidate.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I see from your sheet, you show average =
volume such=20
as Katherine does. You have a scoring system on your personal=20
cryteria. I'm guessing that Katherine sticks with her forward =
growth >=20
15%, Price > $6, Average Daily Volume > 30, RS >60, < 15% =
Below 50=20
day MA, > (above) 200 day MA. Then does she manually look at =
each and=20
every stock on a chart to see if it has a proper base? Is this =
what you do=20
too? You don't have as many stocks in your list, and I haven't =
tried to=20
examine their charts to see if you picked these because of their =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>bases.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>OR NOW, because of my tools, do I =
just enter=20
as close to my prefered CANSLIM cyteria into the screener that I feel =
the most=20
comfortable with and end up with a few hundred stocks and simply bring =
up each=20
and every chart and build some sort of chart scoring system that I can =
sort to=20
give me my list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I understand when building a database =
that you need=20
to start with the final product and work backwards. So in this =
case (and=20
what I did with the paper) is to get my list down to a managable =
size of=20
stocks that were close to their piviots to send myself cell phone=20
alerts and emails to get my attention so I can do my day=20
job.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I understand that I could just =
simply take out=20
a subscription to a service that does most of this for me such as what =
Mike and=20
Katherine have but the reason I got involved in CANSLIM in the first =
place was=20
because I had someone else doing most of it for me. I might have =
stayed=20
with them but not understanding how everything worked made me feel like=20
something was wrong with the method. So before I can feel =
confident in=20
using a service that takes most of the work out of this method, I need =
to prove=20
to myself what I'm looking at. After I see that this is indeed the =
method=20
that I want, and I know that to be a fact, to build on the confidence to =
replicate the data as close as possible to end up with similar results =
is my=20
goal as is everyone else's.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In screening for volume, do you =
recommed that I=20
fiddle around with one of the free sites or do you have a site you know =
of that=20
might help me with this. Am I beating a dead horse with this, do =
you get=20
the same results when you screen, somehow, for stocks <=3D 15% of 52 =
week high=20
and then just flip through the charts like grease lightning! If I =
could=20
just mind meld with a few of you for a few hours, I won't have to =
reinvent the=20
wheel again or rewrite "The Universe in a Nutshell"!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks any input.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>JC</FONT></DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DAJAskey@aol.com =
href=3D"mailto:AJAskey@aol.com">AJAskey@aol.com</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dcanslim@lists.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D"mailto:canslim@lists.xmission.com">canslim@lists.xmission.com</A>=
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 17, 2002 =
11:56=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [CANSLIM] stock =
chart</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>In a =
message dated=20
11/17/2002 12:10:16 PM Central Standard Time, <A=20
href=3D"mailto:jcalkins@olypen.com">jcalkins@olypen.com</A> =
writes:<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
TYPE=3D"CITE">Now let me get this straight. This group is studying =
WON's=20
concept of CANSLIM. Granted, it doesn't mean you need to take =
a=20
subscription to his paper to follow his teaching, BUT! How do =
you find=20
the quality stocks that the big money is moving into? I use =
IBD's=20
Where The Big Money's Flowing to get started with my lists. =
This=20
follows everything that WON teaches. If you do not get the =
paper, then=20
how do you find those same stocks?</FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D3=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2=20
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>JC,<BR><BR>Almost everything that IBD =
provides can be=20
calculated and screened thru subscriptions to other data services such =
as AAII=20
Stock Investor Pro and TC2000. These relatively inexpensive =
services did=20
not exist when IBD was created but are popping up regularly since the =
internet=20
has made it into everyones home. I am hoping that IBD recognizes =
this=20
and somehow provides more data or it will eventually go out of =
business. =20
DGO provides services to screen stocks but they are extremely =
overpriced and=20
under featured based on what is available for free of fee =
elsewhere.<BR><BR>I=20
subscribe to IBD because I like the articles and the constant =
reminders of=20
CANSLIM rules, but not because I cannot find stocks that have the best =
IBD=20
rankings without IBD. In fact, using only IBD EPS ranking stocks =
of 80=20
or better will keep one out of some of the future best performing=20
stocks. (See a recent "Ask Bill" question as IBD states =
this.) By=20
using a tool that screens the fundamentals instead of the rankings, =
one will=20
find the best stocks that may miss some arbitrary cut off by a =
statistically=20
anomally. By this I mean it makes more sense to screen for =
companies=20
meeting CANSLIM criteria than to look at a subset of stocks that a =
good=20
growers to determine if they meet CANSLIM criteria. Stocks that =
meet=20
CANSLIM criteria will magically have good IBD rankings. If I =
wanted I=20
could buy one IBD every week or two for verification of my =
data.<BR><BR>To try=20
to duplicate the actual IBD rankings requires some programming =
knowledge and=20
therefore everyone cannot do it. I do it as I don't want to tie =
my=20
future to a paper that may go out of business at some point. But =
my=20
point is that IBD does not do anything mystical to generate this =
information=20
and the rankings are not the most important thing needed to find =
quality=20
growers. The data behind the rankings is more important and the =
data is=20
not available from IBD.<BR><BR>Andy</FONT> =
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