Go to Jeff Salisbury LWGate Home Page.From: persfin-digest <owner-persfin-digest@shore.net>
Subject: persfin-digest V4 #53
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:00:15 -0400 (EDT)
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persfin-digest Saturday, July 5 1997 Volume 04 : Number 053
IN THIS ISSUE:
ADVERTISEMENT: LAN ACCESS TO MCI MAIL [Oppenheimer Software <Connect-Sal]
Debit Cards Are Much Worse Than Credit Cards [David Meyers <dmeyers@panix]
More Reasons Debit Cards Are A Ticket to Financial Disaster [Rich Carreir]
College Employee Tuition Exemption Is A Special Interest Loophole [Rich C]
Thanks for Info On Using Outside Checks [Kila Roberts <roberts@mort.bsd.u]
Quicken check printing (was: Outside Company To Print Checks) [Ken Stone ]
Maximum 401(k) Contributions? [hartwig@gate.net (Bob Hartwig)]
re: Historical Stock Price Listing? [Ken Stone <kenneth.stone@yale.edu>]
More Shouting Against Debit Cards [georgene@secular.org (Georgene Harknes]
Re: Difference in Index Fund Expense Ratios Is Immaterial [GeorgeS <pip@s]
Another Vote Against Debit Cards [GeorgeS <pip@shore.net>]
Re: Highest Rate Money Market Account ["Henrik Schmiediche" <henrik@picar]
Check Ordering Idea [APRESTON@server.vcccd.cc.ca.us]
anti-debit card! [APRESTON@server.vcccd.cc.ca.us]
Value Line Online [APRESTON@server.vcccd.cc.ca.us]
Re: Life Insurance [John_Mahony@lamg.com (John Mahony)]
Debit Cards Are Only Valuable To The Bank [Stephen Brodeur <sbrodeur@drap]
MMFs and Vanguard [David Martin <dmartin@seabreeze.hc.ti.com>]
Re: Best Place for $10,000 [David Martin <dmartin@seabreeze.hc.ti.com>]
More Debit Card Problems [David Martin <dmartin@seabreeze.hc.ti.com>]
Debit Card Comments [Greta Taglieri <greta.taglieri@iis.varian.com>]
Many Bank Employees Are Clueless When It Comes to Debit Cards [paul.j.sta]
Discrimination or just ways of the world? [Sue_Nielsen@idx.com]
Primary residence to rental... [Christy Rohrig <Christy_Rohrig@hp.com>]
Attitudes To Risk Query? ["Mangiero, Susan" <MangieroS@sacredheart.edu>]
Motley fool portfolio? [eric <73354.3477@CompuServe.COM>]
Refinance or Home Equity Loan? ["Spiering" <spiering@hevanet.com>]
No Problem With Non Bank Checks [Scott Barnett <sab@crisp.net>]
Best way to sell Playboy #1? [Dick Moores <rdm@netcom.com>]
Who Other Than The Bank Needs Debit Cards? [Joe Cabrera <toonhead@tiac.ne]
A Company That Sells Checks [Energo Ed <energo@fwai.org>]
Re: Life Insurance / Puzzle Contest / Best Mutual Funds ["Cal Lester C]
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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:10:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Oppenheimer Software <Connect-Sales@mcimail.com>
Subject: ADVERTISEMENT: LAN ACCESS TO MCI MAIL
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:13:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Meyers <dmeyers@panix.com>
Subject: Debit Cards Are Much Worse Than Credit Cards
>From: George_McAuliffe.BNY@LNOTES.bankofny.com
>
>Why are people out there so anti- bank debit cards?
>
>This appears irrational because a debit card bills your account the same
>as an ATM (deducts cash advances immediately, and purchases either
>immediately or end-of-month or some such).
There are two issues being mixed up here. First is the
debit vs. credit card one. Clearly, if you are capable
of paying off your credit card every month, there is a
considerable benefit to credit - you are borrowing money
for a month for free (float). Also, credit cards offer
better protection against misuse and frequently have
other benefits as well, such as extended warrantees,
frequent flier miles, and especially, ability to contest
a charge on your bill and have the credit card company
not pay it, rather than dispute a debit after the
fact and try to get your money back. It is always easier
to not pay than to get money back.
The second issue, which is an extension of the first is
the one of banks now trying to get those of us who
have ATM cards to use their new ATM/debit cards istead.
I was one of those people, and I rejected the debit card
for two reasons, mainly. One, I am one of those people
who uses a credit card all the time, and pays it off
completely, so I have no use whatsoever for a debit
card. Two, since I have no need for that debit card
I don't want it in my wallet, or even in existence,
as it makes me liable for its misuse (even if I were
only liable for $50, which is the case with real
credit cards, but _not_ with debit cards, I wouldn't
want that $50 liability).
>The only real difference is that you can use a debit card in stores. But
>this difference is quickly disappearing, as in many metro areas you can
>now use your ATM (NYCE, Cirrus, etc.), at many retail locations.
Ya. That's a real difference. A BIG difference. A debit
card _looks_ just like a credit card. When it is used in
a store, there is no verifying of your PIN, or any other
validation more than that with credit card. So it would
be entirely possible for someone to clean out my bank
account with a debit card. Then, at best, I'd have to
convince the retailers to give me my money back, and at
worst, I would not get them to do so, as well as being
likely to bounce checks in the meantime. No thanks.
>And I would guess that banks are issuing debit cards instead of plain
>ATM cards because banks feel that most customers want to be able to
charge against their
>cards.
No banks do not generally do things because they feel that
customers want something. They do things because they
believe them likely to be profitable. They make lots
more money off of debit cards than they do off of you
taking cash from the ATM. Debit cards cost the retailer
a bit of every transaction, just like credit cards do.
You, of course, ultimately pay for this, but you have
already been doing so, so that's not an issue. However,
the bank wants you to use _their_ debit card, so that
_they_ get the kickback. Moreover, since the debit
is taken immediately from your checking account, unlike
a credit card, there is no free float.
>So, unless I'm really missing something, debit cards are not evil. So
>why are so many of you pissed off when you get one in the mail? Could
>it be that you can't handle additional credit in a responsible fashion?
Debit cards are NOT "additional credit". They are simply another
means for draining your checking account directly.
>the real reason. And let's not whine about "But I didn't ask for it - how dare
>they?" Banks are in the business of providing a simple, uniform service to
>everyone; so if 'most' people want debit cards, then 'most' are going to get,
>because it is cheapest for the bank to limit the number of different cards it
>maintains.
Nope. They are in the business of _making money_. For that I
salute them. All well and good. However, when they attempt
to jeapordize my deposits by making access to my money less
secure, without my consent, they are doing something reprehensible.
I am all for making debit cards available to those who
request them. I never requested one, and because they
_forced_ me to deal with their having issued one, I
returned the favor by returning the debit card and
forcing them to go through the hassle of cancelling
both the debit card and the ATM card it replaced, so
that they ultimately had to issue me a new ATM card.
Their hassle, but about an hour of my life wasted
that I'd like back.
>Remember - plastic is a convenience to make life easier. It is only expensive
>if you use it irresponsibly and don't pay it off at the end of the month. To
You don't pay off debit cards at the end of the month. They
are DEBITed directly from your checking account immediately.
>say that, "well, the only way I can control my spending is to limit/eliminate
>the number of credit cards in my wallet," is an admission of gross lack of
>responsibility (but they let you vote/drive/reproduce?!).
Most folks who do not want debit cards do not want them
because they _already_ have credit cards that they DO
use responsibly.
- --D
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:15:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rich Carreiro <rlcarr@animato.pn.com>
Subject: More Reasons Debit Cards Are A Ticket to Financial Disaster
>Why are people out there so anti- bank debit cards?
(1) If a person has any self-control at all, there is NO rational reason
to use them.
(2) Consumer protection laws with respect to debit cards, in a word, SUCK.
>This appears irrational because a debit card bills your account the same
>as an ATM (deducts cash advances immediately, and purchases either
>immediately or end-of-month or some such).
Disagree totally. If I have the discipline to pay my balance in full,
why on earth would I use a debit card? By using a credit card I get
an interest-free loan that could be as long as 50-60 days.
>The only real difference is that you can use a debit card in stores. But
>this difference is quickly disappearing, as in many metro areas you can
>now use your ATM (NYCE, Cirrus, etc.), at many retail locations.
Uh, no. Unlike credit cards, you have ZERO leverage with a merchant when
you use a debit card. The various charge-back provisions in federal law
that apply to credit cards do NOT apply to debit cards. Debit cards also
have lesser protections when it comes to what you're liable for if the card
is stolen and used.
>So, unless I'm really missing something, debit cards are not evil.
You are and they are.
>so many of you pissed off when you get one in the mail? Could it be that you
>can't handle additional credit in a responsible fashion? If so, cite that as
The sign of a losing argument -- ad hominem attacks.
How about because we know what a lose debit cards are and we don't want
something with those kind of vulnerabilities in our wallets. If you don't
give a damn about the debit card features and never intend to use them, a
regular ATM card is far safer to carry around than a debit card because it's
a lot easier for a thief to drain your account with a debit card than an ATM
card.
Rich Carreiro
rlcarr@animato.pn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:16:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rich Carreiro <rlcarr@animato.pn.com>
Subject: College Employee Tuition Exemption Is A Special Interest Loophole
>Employees of some colleges and universities, small private ones, allow
>employees and their familiies to attend college with no tuition or
>reduced tuition. This is a large benefit if they have children.
>
>The Tax Bill that passed the House of Representatives contains a provision
>that would treat the value of this benefit as income, added to your W-2,
>and reported as income. Note you get no more cash income, only imputed
>income.
Question:
If one worked for non-academic employer and had this as an employee benefit,
would the tuition waiver be considered taxable income?
If the answer is "Yes", then I have to wholeheartedly agree with the
House's stand on this. People should not be getting special tax
treatment because of what employer they happen to be working for.
This is exactly the sort of thing the tax code should be completely
neutral on.
So, assuming the answer to my question is yes, I urge people to write
to their CongressCritters urging that either the tuition waiver be considered
taxable income or that the tuition waiver become tax-free to non-academic
employees.
Please do not support more tax unfairness and special-interest loopholes.
Rich Carreiro
rlcarr@animato.pn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:17:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kila Roberts <roberts@mort.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Thanks for Info On Using Outside Checks
I would like to thank everyone who responded to my inquiry about buying
checks from an outside place. The info was TRULY helpful, esp. info about
the first low price being introductory, and then maybe a slight increase
afterwards. I didn't know that at all. Well I've placed my order and I'm
already looking for another check printing company to reorder from!!
Thanks again
Kila
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:18:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Stone <kenneth.stone@yale.edu>
Subject: Quicken check printing (was: Outside Company To Print Checks)
When I first ordered checks to use with Quicken, I realized that they
charged an extraordinary price for check printing. I then ordered from a
mail order firm: my only complaint is that the paper stock is lightweight
and the cancelled Quicken checks frequently return from my bank creased
and torn.
Can anyone recommend a mail order firm that prints Quicken checks on sturdy
paper?
Thanks,
Ken.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:18:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: hartwig@gate.net (Bob Hartwig)
Subject: Maximum 401(k) Contributions?
It's my understanding that the maximum 401(k) contribution for 1997 is about
$9500. My question is the following: Is that $9500 just the portion that's
deducted from one's salary or does it also include the employer's matching
amount?
Thanks.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:19:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Stone <kenneth.stone@yale.edu>
Subject: re: Historical Stock Price Listing?
>
> From: ADELE_FISCHER@HP-Sunnyvale-om5.om.hp.com
> Subject: Historical stock price listing? Is there an on-line URL that I can
> access in order to get stock prices for AT&T (and other stocks) for months
> 1979-present? .... <snip>
I don't know about the web, but CompuServe has this service.
Ken
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:20:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: georgene@secular.org (Georgene Harkness)
Subject: More Shouting Against Debit Cards
To say you are missing something is the understatement of the year.
The problem is that if anyone gets their grubby little hands on the
bank debit card they can empty your account (through purchases)
WITHOUT A PIN NUMBER!
Forgive me for shouting, but after reading the tone of your post, I am
having trouble being civil in this reply.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:23:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: GeorgeS <pip@shore.net>
Subject: Re: Difference in Index Fund Expense Ratios Is Immaterial
>> Fidelity has chopped the expense ratio
>> on their SP500 index funds (both the regular one and the one offered
>> in 401(k) plans) from 0.45% to 0.19%, to match Vanguard.
>
>USAA has a .18% exp ratio on thier S&P500 index fund.
FWIIW, a modicum of perspective is needed, the differences between these
funds is now 0.01%
Annual fee difference on $100,000 * 0.01% = $10
At this level, who cares... A couple of basis points on a giga buck bond
offering may be important. A 0.01% difference on an index fund that, in the
long term, returns 10%/annum, and has a standard deviation of ~10%, is
negligible for the sums must people have to invest
(Editor's Comment - You should *always* care about expenses, especially
periodic ones. It's not a one-time $10 fee, it's $10/year forever.
That's why insurance premiums are such a serious drain on your wealth.
- -IK)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:23:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: GeorgeS <pip@shore.net>
Subject: Another Vote Against Debit Cards
>So, unless I'm really missing something, debit cards are not evil. So why are
>so many of you pissed off when you get one in the mail?
The treatment of an unauthorized withdrawal is different.
Point 1: If something is charged on your credit card, and you believe you
are not responsible, you simply do not pay, and the credit card company has
to come after you. With a debit card, the bank simply takes your money, and
you have to go after them.
Point 2: Furthermore, the legal treatment of a disputed withdrawal is
different. If you loose your credit card and someone uses it, you are, by
federal law, only responsible for $50. If the same thing happens with a
debit card you are responsible for all unauthorized charges until you notify
the bank. Until this time the bank is happily, and legally, taking the money
from your account, which brings us back to the sorry situation of point #1.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:24:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Henrik Schmiediche" <henrik@picard.tamu.edu>
Subject: Re: Highest Rate Money Market Account
Check out:
http://www.ibcdata.com/index.html
For MMF rankings (weekly, yearly, etc.)
- henrik
- --
Henrik Schmiediche, Dept. of Statistics, Texas A&M, College Station, TX 77843
E-mail: henrik@stat.tamu.edu | Tel: (409) 862-1764 | Fax: (409) 845-3144
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:26:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: APRESTON@server.vcccd.cc.ca.us
Subject: Check Ordering Idea
there were two people who said that one way to buy checks is to order a from
a different firm every time, thereby getting an "introductory offer". i have
an idea, that might save all of us some $, if you are interested.
everyone who does order checks, post the name of the firm and a toll-free
number (i will do that for "checks in the mail" when i get home - we can
all "bounce around" (no pun intended on the checks) for a year, and save
lots of $. i am convinced that banks rip us off by selling us their
checks.
i'm going home now, to find "checks in the mail" 800 number..will send it
in over the weekend.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:28:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: APRESTON@server.vcccd.cc.ca.us
Subject: anti-debit card!
i like the convenience of using a bank debit card for buying gas at a self-
serve station, because there is a box right by the pump; i dont even have to
go inside. what aggrivates me is two things:
1. they charge me $.25 for the transaction, which on a fill up is
approximatley 1 1/2% fee, which seems rather high (but then i guess everyone
has to eat)
2. when i get my monthly statement, it will show TWO transactions for each
time i buy gas, printed on four lines of the statement, and if i fill up 4
times a month, that comes to 16 lines each time. it's difficult to read, and
particularly difficult to remember exactly how much you paid and the exact
date if you are not carrying your checkbook with you - if you want a printed
receipt at some stations, you still have to go inside. it's not clear to me
if my bank is getting the $.25 or not..if they are, i am upset because it
should be cheaper for them to process this "electronic" transaction than it
would be if i went and wrote a check for cash, and someone had to handle it.
these are things i am sure i will grow out of, just as i did the "ritual" of
standing in line at a bank on payday night for 45 minutes years ago, just so
i could enjoy the feeling of cold, hard cash - i dont even know what cash
looks like any more, actually.
(Editor's Question - If you use Quicken to reconcile your statement
is it easier or harder to reconcile debit cards vs. credit cards? -IK)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:29:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: APRESTON@server.vcccd.cc.ca.us
Subject: Value Line Online
majorie asked "but, where did you find falue lines on line?"
using a web browser, you can use the address valueline.com, which will give
you some information. it is doubtful that they will have their reports on
line at no cost...after all, how could they sell it through the mail, but
give it away over the internet? maybe you can subscribe over the net, i
haven't looked at it that close yet.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:29:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: John_Mahony@lamg.com (John Mahony)
Subject: Re: Life Insurance
==========FOR THE LIFE INSURANCE QUESTION:
> ...you are almost sure to be better off keeping a whole life policy
> that you have had for over five years than to cancel it and buy
> equivalent term protection. This is because, even if the commissions
> and other charges were outrageous, they were paid off in the first
> five years or less.
I disagree, for two reasons. First of all, I remember life insurance
policies that paid the agent or broker a 55% commission in the first
year, and a trailing 5% commission in each of the years 2 through 10
that the policy remained in force. This was called "55 and 9 fives."
My second reason is that, even if this commission plan is no longer
being used, it will still be possible to buy an equivalent amount of
term insurance for a lower premium. The existing policy is most
likely paying an interest rate of 2% to 4% on the accumulated cash
value. If the policyholder can earn 8% on an equity portfolio, or 7%
on a (taxable) bond portfolio, they will be better off investing the
money separately rather than inside of an insurance policy. Even
investment-grade municipal bonds will, most likely, provide a greater
total return than the cash-value portion of a whole life insurance
policy!
Of course, the insurance companies make it difficult for you to make
a direct comparison between buying a whole life policy and "buying
term and investing the difference." The agents will show you a "net
cost" comparison between whole life and term. But that comparison is
only valid if you keep your savings under you mattress. (In other
words, it ignores the "time value of money.")
The only good reason that I know of for buying a whole life policy is
that it creates a "forced savings plan" for someone who would simply
spend the money otherwise. But there are better ways of doing this,
such as buying a home, having money deducted automatically from your
checking account on a regular basis and then invested, or even having
money deducted from each paycheck to purchase U.S. Savings Bonds!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:32:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen Brodeur <sbrodeur@draper.com>
Subject: Debit Cards Are Only Valuable To The Bank
As far as I can tell, bank debit cards are only valuable to the bank. The
bank collects the premium for a credit card transaction and has little or
no collections risk or costs. It's even easier than a secured credit card,
in that the bank doesn't have to process a separate 'payment' sent in by
the consumer.
What value do debit cards afford the consumer, other than not sending in a
payment check? Do debit cards offer the same protection and limits as
"vanilla" charge cards? What if they are stolen? What about plain ATM cards?
>Remember - plastic is a convenience to make life easier.
Actually, plastic is now more than that. Plastic provides some consumer
protection that cash and checks do not. Do debit cards offer charge-back
provisions when something goes wrong? Plastic is even (virtually) required
for some transactions- like renting a car!
Also, I don't mind having a note on my charge card linger for 2-3 months
while getting an errant charge resolved. It costs me nothing (but patience,
perhaps). I do mind having the money *GONE* from my account until it is
resolved, or *at least* until I recognize it, report it, and the company
acts on my report.
If my charge account has a problem and I can't use my plastic, life goes
on. If my *bank* account has a problem, I can't pay my non-plastic bills
either! Holy bounced check, Batman!
> It is only expensive
>if you use it irresponsibly and don't pay it off at the end of the month. To
>say that, "well, the only way I can control my spending is to limit/eliminate
>the number of credit cards in my wallet," is an admission of gross lack of
>responsibility (but they let you vote/drive/reproduce?!).
It's not just an issue of credit responsibility. In fact, a debit card
might help enforce some restraint for an individual who has trouble
managing credit, because with a debit card, they can't spend money they
don't have.
I don't mind, and in fact prefer, reviewing my charges monthly and then
sending in a payment. To me there is *no advantage* to having a debit card
over a charge card, and some potentially disatrous disadvantages.
- -Steve Brodeur (x2496)
(Editor's Comment - I agree. I like getting a grace period before I have
to pay. It can be up to 2 months of getting an interest free loan.
That's what the banks want to eliminate, in my opinion. -IK)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:32:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Martin <dmartin@seabreeze.hc.ti.com>
Subject: MMFs and Vanguard
Rich writes:
>I would recommend Vanguard's MMFs. While it is true that some
>companies have better yields, they do so via temporary fee waivers,
I would second Rich's advice. I've used Vanguard for quite a
while with no problem.
Also, if you live in a state with high income taxes, it may be
to your advantage to use a MMF which invests only in US government
debt since the interest on these is tax-free. Vanguard offers such a
MMF. Also, Vanguard offers MMFs that invest only in municipal bonds,
and are thus free of both federal and state taxes. (Unlike most
municipal bond funds, they keep a constant $1.00 share price, so you
don't need to deal with capital gains issues.) Of course, the yields
on these funds reflect their tax status, so only people in certain
brackets in certain states should chose these over the regular MMFs.
-David
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:36:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Martin <dmartin@seabreeze.hc.ti.com>
Subject: Re: Best Place for $10,000
Linda writes:
>Would like to get some input from this list about where the "best" place
>would be to deposit $10,000. It looks like my son may get this as a
>settlement. He is 23 a
The "best" place depends on what your son's situation is. One
thing that I would recommend is that if he hasn't gone to college or
somehow have a good long term career planned, he should invest the
$10K in education/training for himself. A good education is by far the
best investment to make.
-David Martin
(Editor's Question - Let's put that to the test. A 4 year BA costs about
$50K at a public college and $100K-$120K at a private college. What's the
average salary of a high school graduate vs a college graduate? How long
will it take for a college graduate to catch up to the high school
graduate who didn't need to make that "investment"? -IK)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:36:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Martin <dmartin@seabreeze.hc.ti.com>
Subject: More Debit Card Problems
The reason is that debit cards cause more trouble if they are
stolen. Suppose someone steals your ATM card. Unless they have your
PIN code, it is hard for him to steal your money with it. But suppose
he steals a debit card, which can be used as a Mastercard. Suddenly,
simply with a signature (which most clerks DO NOT check), he can steal
every cent in your bank account.
What makes it worse is that debit cards do not have the same
protections as credit cards. The teller at the bank will tell you,
"Oh, no problem, we wouldn't charge you if the card was stolen.", but
check the fine print.
Also, if a credit card is stolen, you can just use other
credit cards, cash, and checks while you deal with the credit card
company. It doesn't need to ruin the rest of your financial life. But
if it is your bank account, you may have problems writing checks to
pay your bills, and that can effect everything. In the end, the bank
might settle everything in your favor. But it may take a few weeks,
and that is a few weeks of no cash and no checks.
For those reasons, I always refuse to have a debit card.
-David
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:38:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Greta Taglieri <greta.taglieri@iis.varian.com>
Subject: Debit Card Comments
I don't think the problem is necessarily debit card vs. ATM card, as much
as debit card vs. credit card. When I go to a store, I don't use my ATM
card at the register, but my credit card. That way, I don't have to pay for
the purchase until later
It's not that I can't handle additional credit, I just don't want to
accidentally look at the debit card and use it, thinking it's a regular
credit card, and then give permission to the bank to take the money out of
my account. Then I would start bouncing checks because the money has been
removed without my consciously realizing it, etc.
And let's not forget: banks are in business to make money. If they happen
to make customers happy along the way, then great. If not, it's not their
primary concern (right or wrong). Banks (who issue credit cards) were
hoping that people who pay off their balances each month would not be able
to do math and would use their debit cards INSTEAD of credit cards. I
remember reading that the banks are upset, because it turns out that the
majority of people who are using debit cards are the ones who used to
maintain a balance and pay the high interest on their credit cards.
To try to minimize this, banks are now trying to make people think that the
debit card is supposed to replace the ATM card. They liked collecting the
high interest, and want people to go back to maintaining their high balances.
Getting rid of my Fleet One and "Shawmut Partnership" Accounts,
Greta Taglieri
(Yet another happy customer of getting checks printed using outside
companies)
Beverly, MA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:41:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: paul.j.stadnik@bangate1.TEK.COM
Subject: Many Bank Employees Are Clueless When It Comes to Debit Cards
I also recently declined a debit card from my bank that I had not
requested. I do use credit cards, however, and pay the balance monthly.
My understanding is that <debit> cards are not <credit> cards, and are
therefore not subject to the statutory protections I have with a credit
card.
For example, if my credit card is lost or stolen I am not responsible for
charges if I notify the credit card company in a timely manner. A debit
card (where transactions are immediately deducted from your checking
account) does not have this statutory protection. Large purchases could
be made before you have a chance to report the lost or stolen card.
Credit card transactions also have a legally defined process for dispute
resolution, which debit cards do not have.
When I asked bank personnel about these issues, they were pretty clueless.
The disclosure information that came with the debit card omitted these
issues; they are discussed as legal protections in the disclosures that
came with my credit card.
To me, this is a good reason not to have a debit card.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:44:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sue_Nielsen@idx.com
Subject: Discrimination or just ways of the world?
I have a question regarding "pension" contributions and do not feel really
comfortable about where I stand. I'm sorry my post is long but I am
becoming so confused by my company's "plan people" that I need to turn to
the digest with a plea to enlighten me.
My employer generally contributes about 6% of an employees salary to our
retirement plan each year. There are certain guidelines for eligibility,
etc (which I have fully met - 11+ years with the company) I will do a
brief explanation of the situation and pose my question and then present
some excerpts from plan related documents.... The plan ties into the
elective 401K plan but the statements generally break down the monies into
the applicable buckets (profit sharing contribution and 401K).
Situation:
I was out of work last summer on a 12 week maternity leave.
The companies profit sharing contribution was prorated to exclude the
period of time where disability paid a portion of my salary.
Additionally a separate gracious gift (a company bonus for achieving
satisfaction quota's) was prorated as well.
I feel like I am getting "nickel and dimed" to death for taking any time
off to have a child (and quite frankly I would be completely willing to
give the chore over to the male gender ;-) if I could), and want to know
if this is a practice that is consistently true for all.
Sue
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:44:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christy Rohrig <Christy_Rohrig@hp.com>
Subject: Primary residence to rental...
When I moved from Idaho to California I began renting my house there.
In looking at the capital gains bills now being discussed (H.R. 2014 and
S. 949), it sounds like I may be able to deduct a gain (up to $250k) on
the sale if it was my primary residence for 2 of the last 5 years. Am I
reading this correctly?
If so... I would qualify for that deduction until September 1998. I
would like to explore selling the house to a friend of mine who is
struggling to get a handle on her finances. I was thinking about
selling her my house at fair market value and carrying the entire
ammount as a loan. I can only afford to do this if I am able to hold
the title such that I can continue my mortage payments. Is this
possible? Or is this a lease to buy.
Any thoughts?!?
- -Christy
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:46:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Mangiero, Susan" <MangieroS@sacredheart.edu>
Subject: Attitudes To Risk Query?
I'd appreciate it if you would post the following for me.
Can anyone recommend a study (ies) concerning the attitudes towards
risk (and related investment policies such as investing in low
growth/low risk firms for example) of: (a.) family trust
beneficiaries; (b.) foundations and endowments? Thank you.
Dr. Susan M. Mangiero, CFA
Sacred Heart University
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:47:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: eric <73354.3477@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Motley fool portfolio?
Anyone doing the "foolish four" portfolio? I just started.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:47:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Spiering" <spiering@hevanet.com>
Subject: Refinance or Home Equity Loan?
Help! We need advice for borrowing money for either a refinance or home
equity loan, and where to find a good company that loans to Oregon
residents.
We have a mortgage with $16,000 left. I think we have about 3 years left
to pay on a hight (13%) interest loan. We just installed a new furnace &
AC, and would like to borrow additional money for painting our house and to
pay off credit cards and a personal loan. In all, I think we need about
$30,000, plus ($16,000) for the orginal loan balance. We need help
figuring out what we should do.
Also, our credit is very good and we have lived in our home for 17 yrs. We
have many regrets about not refinancing earlier, however I had no idea we'd
be staying here this long. ALL ADVICE IS WELCOME!
Respectfully,
Mrs. Spiering
"On earth for awhile . . . in heaven forever"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:48:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Barnett <sab@crisp.net>
Subject: No Problem With Non Bank Checks
We've done this for a few years now. Artistic Checks
(1-800-224-7621). $4.95 for the first 200 checks, and
$3.95 for each additional 200. Never had a problem.
- --
Scott Barnett
sab@crisp.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:49:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dick Moores <rdm@netcom.com>
Subject: Best way to sell Playboy #1?
My niece just found the first issue (vol. 1, no. 1) of Playboy Magazine
in her attic. It's in almost perfect shape -- just a small tear on the
spine. I've been poking around on the web and found a place that has
this issue for sale at $3k (http://users.aol.com/brcmags/pl50.html).
I've already written to them asking if they'd be interested in buying,
but I'd appreciate any advice on the best way to sell this find.
My niece also has vol. 2, no. 6 (June 1954).
Thanks,
Dick Moores rdm@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:50:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joe Cabrera <toonhead@tiac.net>
Subject: Who Other Than The Bank Needs Debit Cards?
If I pay my credit card in full monthly, why do I need a debit card?
If my credit card gets stolen and charges are made to it, I'll pay at most
$50 (and many places will even waive that) on those fraudulent charges. if
the same happens with a debit card, I'm out whatever amount is in my
checking account, if the thief so desired.
Well, that's why I don't want one anyways. Anyone else? ;)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:51:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Energo Ed <energo@fwai.org>
Subject: A Company That Sells Checks
I've been using CHECKS IN THE MAIL ($6.95/200 checks) for quite a while
with no problems.
Ed
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 06:53:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Cal Lester C.L.U." <Cal_Lester@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Life Insurance / Puzzle Contest / Best Mutual Funds
==========FOR THE LIFE INSURANCE QUESTION:
Cal Lester is right, you are almost sure to be better off keeping a whole life
policy that you have had for over five years than to cancel it and buy
equivalent term protection. This is because, even if the commissions and
other
charges were outrageous, they were paid off in the first five years or less.
You can cancel the policy when your need for insurance no longer exists (for
most family men, that comes after you retire if your wife doesn't have a good
job, or right after the kids graduate from college if she does have a good
job).
>>>> I thank you Bill for mentioning my reference, however, with no malice
aforethought, I find that I must disagree with your second comment. On paper
it might appear that one might no longer need insurance after the kid's are
out of college, or you are able to retire, but in reality, that most often is
NOT true. Please keep in in that Inflation albeit reduced and currently "in
check" is still present. It WILL cost more to live "then" than it does "now".
The cost of death, and possible taxes due at that time are all increasing. In
addition, the survivor ( he or she) will still need money to live on, in the
style accustomed to.
>>>> BTW, I am certain that you have heard that "Life begins at 40".
Well let me tell you here and now, that is a bold face lie!!!!!! Life
begins when the last child is out of college & married off, AND THE DOG
DIES ! ! ! !
However, I think that it may NOT be advantageous to add more to your monthly
payments. Any 401k or deductible IRA possibilities will be much better as
investments. A tax-advantaged stock fund from Vanguard or a non-deductible
IRA will quite possibly be better also. You should check this out
carefully. A probable 6% with only 4% guaranteed is not as good as a
long-term treasury, if you can do it tax-deferred.
I am afraid that you (as well as most people) have once again overlooked one
of the most beneficial ( and dangerous ) benefits available ONLY with a
Universal Life Policy ( or V/U/L ). That is the ability to WITHDRAW cash from
the policy 100% Income Tax Free ( up to basis ). When you wish to exceed
Basis, you simply change over to 100% Income Tax Free Loans ( and in MANY
cases Interest free).
There are many companies that are currently paying 5 1/2 to 7 % Tax Deferred
Interest on the Cash Value Account ( in V/U/L you could be currently making 15
to 25 % Income Tax Deferred )
Therefore, it CAN be extremely beneficial to INCREASE your cash contribution
each and every month. It has the double effect of REDUCING the monthly COI,
and INCREASING the Tax Deferred Growth, which can then be REMOVED from the
policy 100% Income Tax Free.
Before any one jumps on me, I will also include the caveat, that once you
enter into such a loan arrangement, one must keep the policy IN FORCE, which
can usually be done by APL, because IF you allow it to Lapse, then all loans
are treated as Current Income, and are taxable. This should not be a problem
though.
Cal Lester CLU
------------------------------
End of persfin-digest V4 #53
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